Re: [bolger] Re: Fiberglassing prior to assembly

My most spectacular boat building moment was taking
the wires out of a hull with my car battery. Better
than a Roman candle.

The Gougeons are for precoating panels, they call it
flow coating, and use it for both glassed and
unglassed panels. There isn't anything even slightly
controversial about the process, you just have to use
it where and when it makes sense.


--- roue20ca <amoore@...> wrote:

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I just did some reading on this.
The Gougeon Brothers, John Guzzwell (Modern Wooden
Yacht Construction) and Sam Devlin all suggest taking
the staples, wire or what ever out; this is at the
chine. I found examples in plywood and cold mold layout
hulls (panel, not chine), some examples of leaving in
the mechanical fasteners and some removing them.
Sam Devlin suggests two methods, one envolves applying
heat to the wire stitches before removing. In a quick
read I did not find any mention of pre-epoxying the
plywood panels. I do know Norm Abram (New Yankee Workshop)
built a small boat, in one of his shows and pre-epoxyed
the deck panels with one coat, this allowed for enough
flex and yet made it easy to sand down the plugs with
out sanding through the top ply of the plywood panel.
Great for ensuring good quality finish. Many builders
suggest using pre-preg or peal ply the later layed up
on the flat and then applyed to the hull. Pre-preg is
expensive but keeps weight down and is easy to work with
peal ply is easy use and creates a better quality finish
but does require some additional bodies.

Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

Aye. In plywood twould have a really marginal affect.. what I was
concerned about ( and I THINK you are also) is GLASSING before bent,
because of the stiffness of the glass. And the capability of the glass
fibers to hold energy is greater than wood fibers.

I am reminded of the Kelsall method though.. of building catamarans.
He pre makes all his panels on a as perfectly flat a table as you can
get, then fits them into place like stich and glue. But thats PVC
cored glass.

*sigh* Quite the topic. :) Talk about variables...

--T
Your line of thought is correct. On the other hand
tons of very successful boats are built from tortured
plywood which takes on the kind of stresses you are
concerned with. With all my TP boats I have sheathed
after they were folded up, mostly just so it would be
possible, but even then the pre-stresses are there,
and the boat's survive decades. I'm with you, abut it
is a marginal effect. As it happens with these TP
boats, none of them are plumb sided. Vertical
surfaces are enough trouble it makes sense to do
something special. One option being rolling the boat
over...

--- timothyennuinet <timothy@...> wrote:

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<tt>
Hmm.<BR>
<BR>
Im sure glassing before assembly is not a huge
issue... in terms of<BR>
assembly. But my own concerns would be in larger
structures losing<BR>
some of their structural integrity. If you glass a
panel, and then<BR>
BEND it, you are stressing one side and slacking the
other. Sure it is<BR>
not that much in the overall scheme of things.. but I
think it worth<BR>
noting that overall integrity would be better if the
glass is applied<BR>
AFTER assembly. You then wont have a slack side which
'gives', and a<BR>
tight side which 'pulls'. (Perhaps someone can correct
me.. in that<BR>

That part isn't strictly true, it is just that the
glass will at least be neutral. That isn't likely to
be decisive. When they make bow limbs, they sometimes
laminate prestress into the wood, and then glass to
get an even higher performing composite. It goes to
show that even relatively thick glass (up to 50% in
case of bows), is still affected by the pre-stress in wood.

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If that screw thing were true I couldn't back out the
temporary screws. The expantion and contraction of
disimilar materials, metal in wood may also pop out
your little epoxy plug.

I checked for my source on the wires poking out, and
can't find it. Found something almost to the
contrary. I have a pretty specific memory about it,
because it really made me pause, but I can't
substantiate it currently.

--- Paul Lefebvre <paul@...> wrote:

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<tt>
> If the joint is epoxied, the screws will have had
to pick up epoxy on the<BR>
> way into the bulkhead.  This should all work
like Lock Tite.  They won't<BR>
> turn so the only way is for the wood to go
through a severe swelling and<BR>
> shrinking which should not happen on an epoxied
panel.<BR>
<BR>
Good point Jeff, hadn't thought about the epoxy
inside, between layers -<BR>
this does enter into the equation. Thanks! screws it
is.<BR>
So,  to preglass or not to preglass, that is the
question.....<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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Hmm.

Im sure glassing before assembly is not a huge issue... in terms of
assembly. But my own concerns would be in larger structures losing
some of their structural integrity. If you glass a panel, and then
BEND it, you are stressing one side and slacking the other. Sure it is
not that much in the overall scheme of things.. but I think it worth
noting that overall integrity would be better if the glass is applied
AFTER assembly. You then wont have a slack side which 'gives', and a
tight side which 'pulls'. (Perhaps someone can correct me.. in that
prestress in the right direction may induce MORE stability/strength?)

Now, if the panels are NOT bent much.. say less than 15 degrees arc,
then I dont see any cause for concern. No I dont have maths to back
this up, but 15 degrees sounds like a nice number. :) Please insert
your own analysis and numbers if you like. But if the panels ARE bent
more.. and are, say, your bottom panels... I think Id be pretty wary
of doing this.

So, someone please tell me I am wrong if I am. Im happy to know more
about this, since it will definitely come into play in my own efforts. :)
> If the joint is epoxied, the screws will have had to pick up epoxy on the
> way into the bulkhead. This should all work like Lock Tite. They won't
> turn so the only way is for the wood to go through a severe swelling and
> shrinking which should not happen on an epoxied panel.

Good point Jeff, hadn't thought about the epoxy inside, between layers -
this does enter into the equation. Thanks! screws it is.
So, to preglass or not to preglass, that is the question.....

Paul
That was JR Watson, they may still have copies of
those issue. An all epoxy micro would be much
stronger than the standard assembly, but it is a lot
more costly in epoxy, fillets eat the stuff up, and
the proper bulkhead details, something like solid
plywood, or cored panels would also be more expensive.

I think it verges on a certainly that large screw
heads (#6 drywal screws for instance) will punch
through. The current thinking on wired panels that
are under glass tape, for instance, is that the wire
works its way out, and even nylon electrical ties will
eventualy print through, This is stuff under
significant glass. I have to say I haven't had that
experience, but the people who say so have more than
do I.

What I do in the situation you are facing is either
use narrow crown stapples, or drywall screws that have
a washer, and a plywood washer 1" square. These
penetrate plywood with only matchstick sized holes,
that fill and stay filled, in my experience, once the
screws are pulled. I would, however, be coving the
bulkheads. In situation where I have nailled the
sides to the bulkheads with bronze RSs, I have done
the glassing in one go all sides. It was a pain, most
recently on the "bolger" Fat Eeek! Most
discouragingly when I moved it to get at the coving
inside, which I normaly would do first, the fasteners
pooched the surface anyway...
--- Paul Lefebvre <paul@...>

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:)

<big grin & friendly reminder>

Please remember to delete some of the included text after you
click "reply"! [hint:hint to Thomas, Clyde, Mark and others]

The recent message 20253 "Fiberglassing prior to assembly"

...had 20 lines of intersting stuff, followed by 230 lines of "In
response to" text.

My page down finger gets tired! <big grin>

It's easy; delete out much (or all) of the message to which you are
replying. Those of us who read using Digests, or by using the
Yahoo "Expand Messages" feature will appreciate it! :)

BTW, I recommend using the Yahoo "Expand Messages" feature because it
eliminates almost all of the flashing and blinking advertisements.
Though, it would be extra handy if there was no need to page down 230
lines to get to the next message. TIA <big grin>

:)
Personally I would just turn them in until they pull down below the surface
and make a sligh dimple. Then epoxy over them with thickened epoxy. More
or less like filling nails in drywall.

If the joint is epoxied, the screws will have had to pick up epoxy on the
way into the bulkhead. This should all work like Lock Tite. They won't
turn so the only way is for the wood to go through a severe swelling and
shrinking which should not happen on an epoxied panel.

I leave them in myself. I've built both ways, with and without screws.
Both work fine. Epoxy is amazing stuff.

Jeff
I'm at that stage on my micro, have already preglassed all exposed bulkheads
and have considered preglassing the side panels, but I hesitate since it
would mean I have to punch lots of holes in my nice fiberglass coating to
screw the side panels to the bulkheads. I worry about my ability to get a
good seal over all the screw heads to re-seal the compromised glass coating.
Also, more importantly, I wonder whether my fasteners might later poke up
through my nice finish if they don't have glass over them. I read in the old
Common Sense newsletters that a Gougeon employee built a fastener-less
micro, but I'd rather not count on epoxy to do everything, think I'll leave
'em in. So which is less likely to poke thru OR corrode down the road -
bronze ring-shank nails or marine-grade stainless screws?
My alternative to pre-glassing would be to screw the bare panels on, tape
(optional?), fill and sand, then roll the whole thing out on the lawn, knock
it over on a tarp and glass the upper side, then next day flip and glass the
other side, then stand it back up and glass the bottom last. Any comments?
Paul Lefebvre

> Subject: [bolger] Fiberglassing prior to assembly
That is what I would do too, but unless you are using
really heavy cloth, you should plan on both. If you
look at proffesional composite plans they often have
far more glass than what amateurs come up with. The
chine on my Kurt Hughes try had about 2" of bog, and
40oz of DBX. His favorit deck layup is 1/8" ply with
bagged on 1/2"core, the whole thing wrapped in 20 oz
DBX.

When working with Jim Brown, epoxy/multihull pioneer,
his standard chine lay-up was three layers of glass
tape, 6, 4, 2", and cloth.

What both these guys explicidly know is that the two
most comon areas for rot to start in a ply boat are at
the deck side joint/chines, or the undersides of
enclosed decking (which should be glassed).

--- sundayviking2000 <sundayviking2000@...>
wrote:

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<tt>
What I will do is sheath the bottom and overlap to the
sides.  I <BR>
would think that would be better than just 4"
glass tape on the <BR>
chines.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Roy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell
<proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:<BR>
> I think it is a good idea, the only issues I
would<BR>
> have would be if a particular panel was already
very<BR>
> stiff to start with, the bilge panel on Chebago
comes<BR>
> to mind, the epoxy won't crack, but it will
simply<BR>
> make the ply somewhat stiffer overall.  The
other<BR>
> issue is the efficiency of carrying the glass
over the<BR>
> corners, more layers equals more prottection,
rather<BR>
> than loosing this glass to the trim
process.  However<BR>
> with this boat's steep sides (a dory shape might
be<BR>
> different) it will be a trial to sheath it any
other<BR>
> way.  Sheathing on the vertical is all the
more<BR>
> difficult if your epoxy if the thicker type like
west,<BR>
> that can't be effectively rollered on the wet
out<BR>
> coat.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> --- sundayviking2000
<sundayviking2000@y...><BR>
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> <HR><BR>
> <html><body><BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <tt><BR>
> Since I will be covering the outside of my micro
hull<BR>
> with glass and <BR><BR>
> epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier
to<BR>
> coat the side <BR><BR>
> panels while they are flat on the
sawhorses.&nbsp; I'm<BR>
> using 1/4&quot; acx on <BR><BR>
> the sides.&nbsp; Does anyone forsee any
problems that<BR>
> I might run into <BR><BR>
> doing it this way?&nbsp; Is the expoxy
flexible enough<BR>
> to not crack? Or <BR><BR>
> should I wait to coat them until after
&quot;going<BR>
> 3-D&quot;?&nbsp; Any thoughts
<BR><BR>
> would be appreciated.<BR><BR>
> <BR><BR>
> Roy Dyngen<BR><BR>
> <BR><BR>
> </tt><BR>
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What I will do is sheath the bottom and overlap to the sides. I
would think that would be better than just 4" glass tape on the
chines.

Thanks,

Roy


--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> I think it is a good idea, the only issues I would
> have would be if a particular panel was already very
> stiff to start with, the bilge panel on Chebago comes
> to mind, the epoxy won't crack, but it will simply
> make the ply somewhat stiffer overall. The other
> issue is the efficiency of carrying the glass over the
> corners, more layers equals more prottection, rather
> than loosing this glass to the trim process. However
> with this boat's steep sides (a dory shape might be
> different) it will be a trial to sheath it any other
> way. Sheathing on the vertical is all the more
> difficult if your epoxy if the thicker type like west,
> that can't be effectively rollered on the wet out
> coat.
>
>
> --- sundayviking2000 <sundayviking2000@y...>
> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Since I will be covering the outside of my micro hull
> with glass and <BR>
> epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier to
> coat the side <BR>
> panels while they are flat on the sawhorses.  I'm
> using 1/4" acx on <BR>
> the sides.  Does anyone forsee any problems that
> I might run into <BR>
> doing it this way?  Is the expoxy flexible enough
> to not crack? Or <BR>
> should I wait to coat them until after "going
> 3-D"?  Any thoughts <BR>
> would be appreciated.<BR>
> <BR>
> Roy Dyngen<BR>
> <BR>
> </tt>
>
> <br>
>
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I like the idea of "approximating" the curve.

Thanks,

Roy
--- In bolger@y..., Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@y...> wrote:
> On the Topaz, which has 1/2 ply hull panels 31' long,
> Bolger strongly recommends glassing the panels before
> assembly. He suggests "approximating" the final curve
> before glassing, not because the exopy might crack but
> to make fitting and assembly easier. I just used four
> horses about the height of 1/2 the final beam, then
> simply pulled out the two end ones to cause sag to
> approximate the hull curve--worked fine. I would
> certainly glass before assembly with micro, it is so
> much easier than glassing on a vertcal surface. Sam
> --- sundayviking2000 <sundayviking2000@y...>
> wrote:
> > Since I will be covering the outside of my micro
> > hull with glass and
> > epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier to
> > coat the side
> > panels while they are flat on the sawhorses.
>
> __________________________________________________
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I think it is a good idea, the only issues I would
have would be if a particular panel was already very
stiff to start with, the bilge panel on Chebago comes
to mind, the epoxy won't crack, but it will simply
make the ply somewhat stiffer overall. The other
issue is the efficiency of carrying the glass over the
corners, more layers equals more prottection, rather
than loosing this glass to the trim process. However
with this boat's steep sides (a dory shape might be
different) it will be a trial to sheath it any other
way. Sheathing on the vertical is all the more
difficult if your epoxy if the thicker type like west,
that can't be effectively rollered on the wet out
coat.


--- sundayviking2000 <sundayviking2000@...>
wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>


<tt>
Since I will be covering the outside of my micro hull
with glass and <BR>
epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier to
coat the side <BR>
panels while they are flat on the sawhorses.  I'm
using 1/4" acx on <BR>
the sides.  Does anyone forsee any problems that
I might run into <BR>
doing it this way?  Is the expoxy flexible enough
to not crack? Or <BR>
should I wait to coat them until after "going
3-D"?  Any thoughts <BR>
would be appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Roy Dyngen<BR>
<BR>
</tt>

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<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
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- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
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______________________________________________________________________
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On the Topaz, which has 1/2 ply hull panels 31' long,
Bolger strongly recommends glassing the panels before
assembly. He suggests "approximating" the final curve
before glassing, not because the exopy might crack but
to make fitting and assembly easier. I just used four
horses about the height of 1/2 the final beam, then
simply pulled out the two end ones to cause sag to
approximate the hull curve--worked fine. I would
certainly glass before assembly with micro, it is so
much easier than glassing on a vertcal surface. Sam
--- sundayviking2000 <sundayviking2000@...>
wrote:
> Since I will be covering the outside of my micro
> hull with glass and
> epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier to
> coat the side
> panels while they are flat on the sawhorses.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
I'm glad to hear it! It just seems so much easier!

Thanks

Roy
--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> This is the way I try to do it always! Any chance I get to epoxy
anything
> laying flat I will. No problems with the bending.
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sundayviking2000" <sundayviking2000@y...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 9:58 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Fiberglassing prior to assembly
>
>
> > Since I will be covering the outside of my micro hull with glass
and
> > epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier to coat the side
> > panels while they are flat on the sawhorses. I'm using 1/4" acx
on
> > the sides. Does anyone forsee any problems that I might run into
> > doing it this way? Is the expoxy flexible enough to not crack? Or
> > should I wait to coat them until after "going 3-D"? Any thoughts
> > would be appreciated.
> >
> > Roy Dyngen
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
This is the way I try to do it always! Any chance I get to epoxy anything
laying flat I will. No problems with the bending.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "sundayviking2000" <sundayviking2000@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 9:58 AM
Subject: [bolger] Fiberglassing prior to assembly


> Since I will be covering the outside of my micro hull with glass and
> epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier to coat the side
> panels while they are flat on the sawhorses. I'm using 1/4" acx on
> the sides. Does anyone forsee any problems that I might run into
> doing it this way? Is the expoxy flexible enough to not crack? Or
> should I wait to coat them until after "going 3-D"? Any thoughts
> would be appreciated.
>
> Roy Dyngen
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Since I will be covering the outside of my micro hull with glass and
epoxy, it seems as though it would be much easier to coat the side
panels while they are flat on the sawhorses. I'm using 1/4" acx on
the sides. Does anyone forsee any problems that I might run into
doing it this way? Is the expoxy flexible enough to not crack? Or
should I wait to coat them until after "going 3-D"? Any thoughts
would be appreciated.

Roy Dyngen