Re: vacuum bagging and TiteBond II

TightBond's water resistance might be a moot issue if you seal the
mast with either epoxy or paint. The mast won't be subject to
immersion and have to just deal with spray and high humidity.

Has anyone tried the idea of vacuum bagging 3m 5200 or 5300? If you
wet the wood surfaces prior to glue up to provide adequate water for
curing and vacuum bag for pressure and not so high as to boil off the
water, would this work?

I have come to like 5200 and 5300 even though they are a bit pricey
compared to PL premium. The stuff cures tougher than a skateboard
wheel and anytime I had to clean it off of wood after it cured
involved removing wood. The stuff is tenacious and tough with a fair
amount of setup time. Although I wonder about creep/cold flow.

I didn't write the quote it was a WEST engineer.

--- rnlocnil <lincolnr@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Stiffness, strength, and brittleness aren't the same.
Cast iron and 
steel are about the same stiffness, but most steels
are far less 
brittle than the cast iron a fry pan is made from. (A
fry pan which 
has been used with lead shatters when a brick is
dropped on it from 
sufficient height, or at least ours did. Probably if
not used with 
lead, too, but why bother?) Fiberglass is strong but
not very stiff. 
 
One way to look at brittleness is the crack
propagation. If the 
material in failure goes through a lot of plastic
deformation after 
reaching it's elastic limit (like kinking a wire), it
won't be brittle 
in the usual sense. The end of a crack will open up
into a nice radius 
instead of spreading. 
 
You can say that composites are brittle in that some
tend to fail all 
at once, but in the case of fiberglass, it absorbs a
lot of energy 
first, and if used as fiberglass cloth there is a
ripstop effect. 
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell
<proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

> 
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@c...>

wrote: 
snip

> You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to bond

together

> parts that will be under a constant heavy load.

So too

> should you think twice about springing a hardwood

rub

> rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface

of a

> flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural 
> problems, creep is also a factor in the

eventual

> "print through" of an underlying

fabric's texture

> through the surface of epoxy. 
>

snip

> 
> Frequently, the term flexible is used to

market

> products that aren't very strong. Some epoxies

have a

> tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would

anyone

> say that flexibility is a good thing for

structural

> applications? Because flexible sounds (and

sells)

> better than weak. If you're going to bond a

structure

> together with a product that is not as strong as

the

> structure, that product had better be flexible!

The

> flip side of the flexible coin is to describe

stiff

> products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that

tries to

> associate stiffness with weakness. 
> 
>

</tt>

 



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<tt>
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dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
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______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

> 
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@c...>

wrote: 
snip

> You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to bond

together

> parts that will be under a constant heavy load.

So too

> should you think twice about springing a hardwood

rub

> rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface

of a

> flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural 
> problems, creep is also a factor in the

eventual

> "print through" of an underlying

fabric's texture

> through the surface of epoxy. 
>

snip

> 
> Frequently, the term flexible is used to

market

> products that aren't very strong. Some epoxies

have a

> tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would

anyone

> say that flexibility is a good thing for

structural

> applications? Because flexible sounds (and

sells)

> better than weak. If you're going to bond a

structure

> together with a product that is not as strong as

the

> structure, that product had better be flexible!

The

> flip side of the flexible coin is to describe

stiff

> products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that

tries to

> associate stiffness with weakness. 
> 
>

> 
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@c...>

wrote: 
snip

> You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to bond

together

> parts that will be under a constant heavy load.

So too

> should you think twice about springing a hardwood

rub

> rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface

of a

> flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural 
> problems, creep is also a factor in the

eventual

> "print through" of an underlying

fabric's texture

> through the surface of epoxy. 
>

snip

> 
> Frequently, the term flexible is used to

market

> products that aren't very strong. Some epoxies

have a

> tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would

anyone

> say that flexibility is a good thing for

structural

> applications? Because flexible sounds (and

sells)

> better than weak. If you're going to bond a

structure

> together with a product that is not as strong as

the

> structure, that product had better be flexible!

The

> flip side of the flexible coin is to describe

stiff

> products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that

tries to

> associate stiffness with weakness. 
> 
>

Stiffness, strength, and brittleness aren't the same. Cast iron and
steel are about the same stiffness, but most steels are far less
brittle than the cast iron a fry pan is made from. (A fry pan which
has been used with lead shatters when a brick is dropped on it from
sufficient height, or at least ours did. Probably if not used with
lead, too, but why bother?) Fiberglass is strong but not very stiff.

One way to look at brittleness is the crack propagation. If the
material in failure goes through a lot of plastic deformation after
reaching it's elastic limit (like kinking a wire), it won't be brittle
in the usual sense. The end of a crack will open up into a nice radius
instead of spreading.

You can say that composites are brittle in that some tend to fail all
at once, but in the case of fiberglass, it absorbs a lot of energy
first, and if used as fiberglass cloth there is a ripstop effect.

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@c...> wrote:
snip
> You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to bond together
> parts that will be under a constant heavy load. So too
> should you think twice about springing a hardwood rub
> rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface of a
> flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural
> problems, creep is also a factor in the eventual
> "print through" of an underlying fabric's texture
> through the surface of epoxy.
>
snip
>
> Frequently, the term flexible is used to market
> products that aren't very strong. Some epoxies have a
> tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would anyone
> say that flexibility is a good thing for structural
> applications? Because flexible sounds (and sells)
> better than weak. If you're going to bond a structure
> together with a product that is not as strong as the
> structure, that product had better be flexible! The
> flip side of the flexible coin is to describe stiff
> products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that tries to
> associate stiffness with weakness.
>
>

My Dad ( a real genuine old school shipwright) always used weldwood glue
for his masts. This was long before modern glues. He always maintained
that he had 0 failures, and I know of a couple that were still going
strong after 40 years of hard driving on SF Bay. The down side is the
need for perfect close tolerance joints and good clamping pressure, easy
for him, not so easy for me and others that haven't spent their adult
life with wood working tools in their hand.

HJ

Richard Spelling wrote:

>
> Where are you getting your data on creep resistance of glues? Do you have a
> URL?
>
> TiteBond is hard when cured.
>
> Plastic resin (weldwood et al) glues aren't weatherproof, rain will
> eventualy wash them away.
>
> Doesn't resourcenol require great pressure and heat to work?
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond II

>
> The plastic resin glue I had in mind is that stuff
> that comes in powder form in a paint can, and you mix
> with water, it is hard, and totally waterproof. I
> used to use it a lot until I developed a brital
> allergy to it (though this wasn't one of the warnings
> associated with it, like epoxy). I think it was
> called Weldwood plastic resin cement, and lepages also
> had a brand. It used to be quite popular for stripper
> canoes, though eventualy easier to sand glues came
> into the forefront.
>
>
>
Ala Weldwood. Rain will wash it way, personal experiance and the experiance
of Michalak.

A quick perusal of some bamboo rod sites shows
interesting and somewhat contraditory results.
Titbond II breaks in scarph tests where URAC (epoxy)
does not; TII comes apart in water when wet planed.
Titebond can be easily straightened (a good thing for
rod makers, though it is creep at work bigtime) with
the application of heat, though this result is
contradicted elsewhere were it is claimed that 190 F
is required to seperate the joint, which is a low
heat anyway. Some of the fialures, it is suggested,
may be due to the user subjecting the rod/component to
actions without letting them dry for 2-3 weeks first.

The Franklin people recomend it for birdhouses, so you
gotta know its good:

http://www.titebond.com/default.asp

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

I don't have a URL. Do you have one for T II data?
It is based on my experience of things flying appart
and that of others, but as I say it isn't specific to
T II. I wouldn't be as concerned with plywood, but in
your use the glue joints emerge on the surface, which
means they have to be as good as the wood, if they are
highly stressed, and again, I don't know your
application in detail. I don't think R, requires
great heat etc... They use it in bamboo rods, another
interest of mine, and they just clamp those up with
string tighly wound string. I don't have Resourcenol
experience either, it always semed too expensive
compared to the size of project I had in mind, but it
holds up. Bamboo rods are not a bad correlary to your
situation since they are glued up in hexagons etc...
With joints running out to the surface. They are also
loaded reasonably hard. I don't know whether pros.
are using TII for that or not. I would be surprised if
there aren't amateurs using T II, but those rods
aren't subject to replacement if returned.

The plastic resin glue I had in mind is that stuff
that comes in powder form in a paint can, and you mix
with water, it is hard, and totally waterproof. I
used to use it a lot until I developed a brital
allergy to it (though this wasn't one of the warnings
associated with it, like epoxy). I think it was
called Weldwood plastic resin cement, and lepages also
had a brand. It used to be quite popular for stripper
canoes, though eventualy easier to sand glues came
into the forefront.

--- Richard Spelling <richard@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Where are you getting your data on creep resistance of
glues? Do you have a 
URL? 
 
TiteBond is hard when cured. 
 
Plastic resin (weldwood et al) glues aren't
weatherproof, rain will 
eventualy wash them away. 
 
Doesn't resourcenol require great pressure and heat to
work?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas dalzell"
<proaconstrictor@...> 
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 11:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond
II 
 
 
> I can't say it will be a problem. Is it
going to be 
> rigged to take bending loads? If so there
are more 
> creep resistant glues, also more waterproof
glues. 
> Seems as though since you are already going to a
lot 
> of trouble to make this nicely, a hard epoxy, 
> resourcenol glue, or plastic resin glues etc...
might 
> be better. Some yellow/white glues are hard
when 
> dried, and some are soft. With guitars
luthiers 
> usualy choose their brand carefuly and only use
fresh 
> glue on bridges (that experience modest
rigging 
> loads). Some won't use this class of glue
at all. 
> Having experienced gluebond failures from
well 
> assembled parts, I have learned to be cautious,
the 
> hard way. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@...>
wrote: 
> 
> <HR> 
> <html><body> 
> 
> 
> <tt> 
> I understand what creep is. 
> 
> What I don't understand is where creep will
become a 
> problem with a birds 
> mouth gaff that is glued with TiteBond
II. 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "thomas dalzell" 
>
<proaconstrictor@...> 
> To:
<bolger@yahoogroups.com> 
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 11:13 AM 
> Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and
TiteBond 
> II 
> 
> 
> > 
> > --- Richard Spelling
<richard@...> 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > <HR> 
> >
<html><body> 
> > 
> > 
> > <tt> 
> > Explain. Creep
problems? 
> > 
> > Let WESTies explain: 
> > 
> > 
> > Now you're thinking.It's not that
simple!! 
> > 
> > Well, of course not. There is a penalty
for too 
> much 
> > flexibility. Strength and creep
resistance must 
> be 
> > considered. In the grand scheme of
things, if 
> the 
> > adhesive or coating is very stretchy,
creep 
> (the 
> > movement under a constant load) can
become a 
> big 
> > problem, and all materials will creep.
Sagging 
> rafters 
> > have crept into that position slowly
over a long 
> time. 
> > A bar of taffy lying on an uneven
surface would 
> soon 
> > creep into the uneven contours of the
surface. 
> What 
> > degree of creep or flexibility is
acceptable? 
> > 
> > You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to
bond 
> together 
> > parts that will be under a constant
heavy load. 
> So too 
> > should you think twice about springing a
hardwood 
> rub 
> > rail around a hull and bonding it to the
surface 
> of a 
> > flexible epoxy coating. Aside from
structural 
> > problems, creep is also a factor in
the 
> eventual 
> > "print through" of an
underlying 
> fabric's texture 
> > through the surface of
epoxy. 
> > 
> > There is a balance between allowing
more 
> elongation at 
> > the expense of creep resistance, or
limiting 
> creep and 
> > accepting lower elongation. It is well
known in 
> the 
> > adhesives and coatings industry that you
give 
> up 
> > strength and creep resistance to
increase 
> elongation 
> > in a plastic material. This tradeoff is
important 
> to 
> > understand. 
> > 
> > Frequently, the term flexible is used
to 
> market 
> > products that aren't very strong. Some
epoxies 
> have a 
> > tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why
would 
> anyone 
> > say that flexibility is a good thing
for 
> structural 
> > applications? Because flexible sounds
(and 
> sells) 
> > better than weak. If you're going to
bond a 
> structure 
> > together with a product that is not as
strong as 
> the 
> > structure, that product had better be
flexible! 
> The 
> > flip side of the flexible coin is to
describe 
> stiff 
> > products as brittle, a marketing gimmick
that 
> tries to 
> > associate stiffness with
weakness. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
>
______________________________________________________________________ 
> > Games, Movies, Music & Sports!
<a 
> href="<a
href="http://entertainment.yahoo.ca">http://entertainment.yahoo.ca</a>"><a
href="http://entertainment.yahoo.ca">http://entertainment.yahoo.ca</a></a> 
> > 
> > 
> > Bolger rules!!! 
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling,
spamming, or 
> flogging dead horses 
> > - pls take "personals"
off-list, stay 
> on topic, and punctuate 
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN
your 
> posts, snip all you like 
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger,
P.O. Box 
> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
> > - Unsubscribe:  
> bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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> 
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> Bolger rules!!! 
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
flogging dead horses 
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay
on topic, and punctuate 
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your
posts, snip all you like 
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
1209, Gloucester, MA, 
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> - Unsubscribe:
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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
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of Service</a>.</tt>


</body></html>

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

Where are you getting your data on creep resistance of glues? Do you have a
URL?

TiteBond is hard when cured.

Plastic resin (weldwood et al) glues aren't weatherproof, rain will
eventualy wash them away.

Doesn't resourcenol require great pressure and heat to work?

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond II

> I can't say it will be a problem. Is it going to be
> rigged to take bending loads? If so there are more
> creep resistant glues, also more waterproof glues.
> Seems as though since you are already going to a lot
> of trouble to make this nicely, a hard epoxy,
> resourcenol glue, or plastic resin glues etc... might
> be better. Some yellow/white glues are hard when
> dried, and some are soft. With guitars luthiers
> usualy choose their brand carefuly and only use fresh
> glue on bridges (that experience modest rigging
> loads). Some won't use this class of glue at all.
> Having experienced gluebond failures from well
> assembled parts, I have learned to be cautious, the
> hard way.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@...> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> I understand what creep is. 
> 
> What I don't understand is where creep will become a
> problem with a birds 
> mouth gaff that is glued with TiteBond II. 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "thomas dalzell"
> <proaconstrictor@...> 
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com> 
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 11:13 AM 
> Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond
> II 
> 
> 
> > 
> > --- Richard Spelling <richard@...>
> wrote: 
> > 
> > <HR> 
> > <html><body> 
> > 
> > 
> > <tt> 
> > Explain. Creep problems? 
> > 
> > Let WESTies explain: 
> > 
> > 
> > Now you're thinking.It's not that simple!! 
> > 
> > Well, of course not. There is a penalty for too
> much 
> > flexibility. Strength and creep resistance must
> be 
> > considered. In the grand scheme of things, if
> the 
> > adhesive or coating is very stretchy, creep
> (the 
> > movement under a constant load) can become a
> big 
> > problem, and all materials will creep. Sagging
> rafters 
> > have crept into that position slowly over a long
> time. 
> > A bar of taffy lying on an uneven surface would
> soon 
> > creep into the uneven contours of the surface.
> What 
> > degree of creep or flexibility is acceptable? 
> > 
> > You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to bond
> together 
> > parts that will be under a constant heavy load.
> So too 
> > should you think twice about springing a hardwood
> rub 
> > rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface
> of a 
> > flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural 
> > problems, creep is also a factor in the
> eventual 
> > "print through" of an underlying
> fabric's texture 
> > through the surface of epoxy. 
> > 
> > There is a balance between allowing more
> elongation at 
> > the expense of creep resistance, or limiting
> creep and 
> > accepting lower elongation. It is well known in
> the 
> > adhesives and coatings industry that you give
> up 
> > strength and creep resistance to increase
> elongation 
> > in a plastic material. This tradeoff is important
> to 
> > understand. 
> > 
> > Frequently, the term flexible is used to
> market 
> > products that aren't very strong. Some epoxies
> have a 
> > tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would
> anyone 
> > say that flexibility is a good thing for
> structural 
> > applications? Because flexible sounds (and
> sells) 
> > better than weak. If you're going to bond a
> structure 
> > together with a product that is not as strong as
> the 
> > structure, that product had better be flexible!
> The 
> > flip side of the flexible coin is to describe
> stiff 
> > products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that
> tries to 
> > associate stiffness with weakness. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________ 
> > Games, Movies, Music & Sports! <a
> href="http://entertainment.yahoo.ca">http://entertainment.yahoo.ca</a> 
> > 
> > 
> > Bolger rules!!! 
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses 
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay
> on topic, and punctuate 
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your
> posts, snip all you like 
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
> > - Unsubscribe:
> bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a
>
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</
a> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> </tt>
>
> 
>
> 
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> Bolger rules!!! 
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
> dead horses 
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
> topic, and punctuate 
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
> snip all you like 
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
> - Unsubscribe:
> bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
> 
>
> 
> <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
> href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
> of Service</a>.</tt>
> 
>
> </body></html>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I can't say it will be a problem. Is it going to be
rigged to take bending loads? If so there are more
creep resistant glues, also more waterproof glues.
Seems as though since you are already going to a lot
of trouble to make this nicely, a hard epoxy,
resourcenol glue, or plastic resin glues etc... might
be better. Some yellow/white glues are hard when
dried, and some are soft. With guitars luthiers
usualy choose their brand carefuly and only use fresh
glue on bridges (that experience modest rigging
loads). Some won't use this class of glue at all.
Having experienced gluebond failures from well
assembled parts, I have learned to be cautious, the
hard way.

--- Richard Spelling <richard@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
I understand what creep is. 
 
What I don't understand is where creep will become a
problem with a birds 
mouth gaff that is glued with TiteBond II.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thomas dalzell"
<proaconstrictor@...> 
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 11:13 AM 
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond
II 
 
 
> 
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@...>
wrote: 
> 
> <HR> 
> <html><body> 
> 
> 
> <tt> 
> Explain. Creep problems? 
> 
> Let WESTies explain: 
> 
> 
> Now you're thinking.It's not that simple!! 
> 
> Well, of course not. There is a penalty for too
much 
> flexibility. Strength and creep resistance must
be 
> considered. In the grand scheme of things, if
the 
> adhesive or coating is very stretchy, creep
(the 
> movement under a constant load) can become a
big 
> problem, and all materials will creep. Sagging
rafters 
> have crept into that position slowly over a long
time. 
> A bar of taffy lying on an uneven surface would
soon 
> creep into the uneven contours of the surface.
What 
> degree of creep or flexibility is acceptable? 
> 
> You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to bond
together 
> parts that will be under a constant heavy load.
So too 
> should you think twice about springing a hardwood
rub 
> rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface
of a 
> flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural 
> problems, creep is also a factor in the
eventual 
> "print through" of an underlying
fabric's texture 
> through the surface of epoxy. 
> 
> There is a balance between allowing more
elongation at 
> the expense of creep resistance, or limiting
creep and 
> accepting lower elongation. It is well known in
the 
> adhesives and coatings industry that you give
up 
> strength and creep resistance to increase
elongation 
> in a plastic material. This tradeoff is important
to 
> understand. 
> 
> Frequently, the term flexible is used to
market 
> products that aren't very strong. Some epoxies
have a 
> tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would
anyone 
> say that flexibility is a good thing for
structural 
> applications? Because flexible sounds (and
sells) 
> better than weak. If you're going to bond a
structure 
> together with a product that is not as strong as
the 
> structure, that product had better be flexible!
The 
> flip side of the flexible coin is to describe
stiff 
> products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that
tries to 
> associate stiffness with weakness. 
> 
> 
> 
>
______________________________________________________________________ 
> Games, Movies, Music & Sports! <a
href="http://entertainment.yahoo.ca">http://entertainment.yahoo.ca</a> 
> 
> 
> Bolger rules!!! 
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
flogging dead horses 
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay
on topic, and punctuate 
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your
posts, snip all you like 
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
1209, Gloucester, MA, 
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
> - Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> 
> 
> 
> 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>


</body></html>

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

I understand what creep is.

What I don't understand is where creep will become a problem with a birds
mouth gaff that is glued with TiteBond II.

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond II

>
> --- Richard Spelling <richard@...> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Explain. Creep problems? 
>
> Let WESTies explain:
>
>
> Now you're thinking.It's not that simple!!
>
> Well, of course not. There is a penalty for too much
> flexibility. Strength and creep resistance must be
> considered. In the grand scheme of things, if the
> adhesive or coating is very stretchy, creep (the
> movement under a constant load) can become a big
> problem, and all materials will creep. Sagging rafters
> have crept into that position slowly over a long time.
> A bar of taffy lying on an uneven surface would soon
> creep into the uneven contours of the surface. What
> degree of creep or flexibility is acceptable?
>
> You wouldn't use a flexible adhesive to bond together
> parts that will be under a constant heavy load. So too
> should you think twice about springing a hardwood rub
> rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface of a
> flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural
> problems, creep is also a factor in the eventual
> "print through" of an underlying fabric's texture
> through the surface of epoxy.
>
> There is a balance between allowing more elongation at
> the expense of creep resistance, or limiting creep and
> accepting lower elongation. It is well known in the
> adhesives and coatings industry that you give up
> strength and creep resistance to increase elongation
> in a plastic material. This tradeoff is important to
> understand.
>
> Frequently, the term flexible is used to market
> products that aren't very strong. Some epoxies have a
> tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would anyone
> say that flexibility is a good thing for structural
> applications? Because flexible sounds (and sells)
> better than weak. If you're going to bond a structure
> together with a product that is not as strong as the
> structure, that product had better be flexible! The
> flip side of the flexible coin is to describe stiff
> products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that tries to
> associate stiffness with weakness.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- Richard Spelling <richard@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Explain. Creep problems? 

Let WESTies explain:

Now you�re thinking�It�s not that simple!!

Well, of course not. There is a penalty for too much
flexibility. Strength and creep resistance must be
considered. In the grand scheme of things, if the
adhesive or coating is very stretchy, creep (the
movement under a constant load) can become a big
problem, and all materials will creep. Sagging rafters
have crept into that position slowly over a long time.
A bar of taffy lying on an uneven surface would soon
creep into the uneven contours of the surface. What
degree of creep or flexibility is acceptable?

You wouldn�t use a flexible adhesive to bond together
parts that will be under a constant heavy load. So too
should you think twice about springing a hardwood rub
rail around a hull and bonding it to the surface of a
flexible epoxy coating. Aside from structural
problems, creep is also a factor in the eventual
�print through� of an underlying fabric�s texture
through the surface of epoxy.

There is a balance between allowing more elongation at
the expense of creep resistance, or limiting creep and
accepting lower elongation. It is well known in the
adhesives and coatings industry that you give up
strength and creep resistance to increase elongation
in a plastic material. This tradeoff is important to
understand.

Frequently, the term flexible is used to market
products that aren�t very strong. Some epoxies have a
tensile elongation as high as 23%. Why would anyone
say that flexibility is a good thing for structural
applications? Because flexible sounds (and sells)
better than weak. If you�re going to bond a structure
together with a product that is not as strong as the
structure, that product had better be flexible! The
flip side of the flexible coin is to describe stiff
products as brittle, a marketing gimmick that tries to
associate stiffness with weakness.

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

Explain. Creep problems?

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond II

| I would have thought you might get creep problems in
| that setting.
|
| Was thinking the birdsmouth for the gaff. Could spread
| it on all of them 
| with a 3" brush in about 30 seconds. 
|
|
| ______________________________________________________________________
| Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond II
| > epoxies where I buy them. 
| > 
| I'm pretty sure you can thin with water. 
| 
| I get my T II at HD, for $15 a gallon. You get your
| epoxy cheaper than that? 
|
| No, but its Canada here nothing is the same. Can't
| you guy get epoxy in the low 20s? In general it would
| be worth the extra bucks.

Low twenties would be worth it. Best price I've seen is low 30's, from
Fiberglass Coatings. Don't like the way it spreads, smells too, suspect it's
full of fillers.

I would have thought you might get creep problems in
that setting.

Was thinking the birdsmouth for the gaff. Could spread
it on all of them 
with a 3" brush in about 30 seconds. 

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

epoxy you need to run the pump for 6-8 hours,
usualy,

> depending on temp. 
>

I've unvacced after an hour with epoxy, it wasn't
completly set, but was 
tacky enough to keep things from going anywhere. I was
just vaccing down 
glass though, not laminating. 

There are certainly wood jobs that are under heavy
springback pressure, like tortured deck elements. I
want the stuff hard before I turn off the presure.
With flat panels less might be fine. When I did the
largest part of my vac work I was in a shop where I
payed rent, utilities comped. I didn't want to waste
it, but I didn't worry about an hour here or there.
Since then whenever I think of the dream shop I thik
of one by a river with a natural venturi, or something
simmilar

> epoxies where I buy them. 
>

I'm pretty sure you can thin with water. 
 
I get my T II at HD, for $15 a gallon. You get your
epoxy cheaper than that? 

No, but its Canada here nothing is the same. Can't
you guy get epoxy in the low 20s? In general it would
be worth the extra bucks.

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond II

> You can use it in a V bag, but it takes more pressure
> than an epoxy, generaly you need a rotary vane, or
Have an old fridge pump, if I can get it to work consistantly.

> The big advantage to yellow/white glues is that they
> only require 30 minutes or so vac pressure. With
> epoxy you need to run the pump for 6-8 hours, usualy,
> depending on temp.
>
I've unvacced after an hour with epoxy, it wasn't completly set, but was
tacky enough to keep things from going anywhere. I was just vaccing down
glass though, not laminating.

> I agree with the coment on open time issues. Does
> anyone know what you can thin T II with? That would
> take care of it, I think. The other issue with large
> pieces is that T II is more expensive than the cheaper
> epoxies where I buy them.
>
I'm pretty sure you can thin with water.

I get my T II at HD, for $15 a gallon. You get your epoxy cheaper than that?

Was thinking the birdsmouth for the gaff. Could spread it on all of them
with a 3" brush in about 30 seconds.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Funk" <fritzf@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] vacuum bagging and TiteBond II

> At 12:42 PM 5/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Anybody have any idea if TiteBond II will cure in a vacuum bag?
>
> Not sure about curing in the vac environment, but I think you'd have to be
> very quick in spreading it for a lamination job, as it gets tacky pretty
> quickly. Not much work time. -- Fritz
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

You can use it in a V bag, but it takes more pressure
than an epoxy, generaly you need a rotary vane, or
other simmilar high pressure pump. This part weirds
me out a bit. I build guitars too, and there,
components that come under serious pressure are oftn
assembled with glue using no clamping pressure
whatever. It opesns your eyes a bit. But as I say,
you are probably best sticking with the advice
relating to high pressure pumps. These can be old
refrigerator motors, milking machines etc... And
ventury systems.

If you want to use try a sample using a shop vac, just
take a couple of pieces of ply a foot or two square,
put them in a bag, and apply radical suck down. See
what happens. Don't be surprised if the edges of your
ply are not glue perfectly. that is normal, but
everything .5-1" in should be perfect, if indeed the
sample wored.

The big advantage to yellow/white glues is that they
only require 30 minutes or so vac pressure. With
epoxy you need to run the pump for 6-8 hours, usualy,
depending on temp.

I agree with the coment on open time issues. Does
anyone know what you can thin T II with? That would
take care of it, I think. The other issue with large
pieces is that T II is more expensive than the cheaper
epoxies where I buy them.

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At 12:42 PM 5/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>Anybody have any idea if TiteBond II will cure in a vacuum bag?

Not sure about curing in the vac environment, but I think you'd have to be
very quick in spreading it for a lamination job, as it gets tacky pretty
quickly. Not much work time. -- Fritz

Anybody have any idea if TiteBond II will cure in a vacuum bag?