Re: [bolger] Re: Fabric

> Is this stuff a knit? That would be what would worry
> me, though not in your use with the 1700 # of ply
> etc...

No, I don't believe it's a knit. It's a woven fabric much like fiber glass.
The picture on the website for fabrics is not Olifin, at least not what I'm
using. It really looks like burlap cloth only not as fuzzy and the strands
are tighter woven.

Very little stretch at least by hand. It'll cut your fingers before
stretching much. Using a single strand and two pair of needle nose pliers,
I can't break it until it pulls too hard on the pliers jaws where it cuts it
at the edge.

Cutting it takes a really good sharp sissors.

It's a 4 oz. cloth and needs a fair amount of epoxy to fill the weave,
though probably a lot like 8 or 10 oz. fiber glass.

Jeff

Is this stuff a knit? That would be what would worry
me, though not in your use with the 1700 # of ply
etc... But knits stretch, the fiber may have a higher
tensile strength, but the cloth may not as an
installed. Like sheathing your boat with a double
knit leisure suit. The fibres in those were very
strong also, that's why they pill, but they were also
nicely stretchy. If you run aground on a limestone
ridge, knits are the stuff, but if you hit something
hard I would prefer glass. Carbon would be the worst
since it is so stiff it would have to break before the
loads get to the the ply. It is also a fragile fiber
not good in an abrasive environment, though there are
all sorts of dual cloths that may get over that.

> Hard to argue with the conclusion that plain

glass is

> the way to go.

Depends on your needs. If your building a canoe
or kayak and a gold plater 
at that the fiber glass is best for looks and
weight. 
 

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca

It's a different country compared to the boatbuilding
most of us are used to.

No kidding, I layed up part of the Wyo's hull bottom
this weekend. Even at 
17' long the darn thing must weight 700 lbs. I
was worried about being 
flexible enough to get it to fit the curve of the side
panels since it 

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca

>Anyway Jeff, in your case, I don't doubt you will get
> a great product out of the cloth in question. You
> already have a very thick and strong bottom.

No kidding, I layed up part of the Wyo's hull bottom this weekend. Even at
17' long the darn thing must weight 700 lbs. I was worried about being
flexible enough to get it to fit the curve of the side panels since it
doesn't have the other 1500 lbs attached to the aft section. Not to worry
though, it is still flexible enough for the 1/4" per foot or so arch built
into the side panels. Got the fabric and a couple coasts of epoxy on it too.

Jeff

> Hard to argue with the conclusion that plain glass is
> the way to go.

Depends on your needs. If your building a canoe or kayak and a gold plater
at that the fiber glass is best for looks and weight.

If you building a 10,000 lbs. cruiser that's going to be painted the
protection is better. Yes it cost more and may be more work but protection
comes at a cost. I would hate to be in the middle of a river taking on
water from a log strike wishing I has used something better.

If I could have afforded it, I'd have a kevlar coated hull with a layer of
carbon fiber to boot, but one must draw a line somewhere. For me, the
Olifin was several times better in all my needs than Fiber Glass.

Jeff

Just as a reminder, there was that one comment in
Wooden boat about knit cloth being very weak in the
area of cutouts. With the careful job you are doing
Jeff, you might want to throw in some special
reinforcement if there are areas like that in your
boat. Through hulls, cutouts for hatches (in areas
where the sheathing maters), daggerboard slot like
things. Can't think of any issues, unless there is
something in the Ducktail cutout area on Wyo. The
strategy would be to throw in something like 20 oz DBX
to control any loads, then just sheat over it per
usual.

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca

These tests look like the drop a ball bearing test, or
hammer blow tests, which cover one kind of impact.
they don't deal with the contribution of the material
to a wooden structure. Parroting on about TS figures
that will only come into play when the log is lodged
in the state room doesn't make much sense.

Anyway Jeff, in your case, I don't doubt you will get
a great product out of the cloth in question. You
already have a very thick and strong bottom. Not like
designing a 40 foot multi where the planking might be
in the 3/8" range.

---boatbuilding@...wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>

> <a

href="http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#olifinanch">http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#olifinanch</a>

> 
> The tests and examples of transparency, strengths

and

> weaknesses are well done. I suggest any

exploration into

> alternative materials 
> start here. 
>

This site is where I decided on Dynel or Olifin.
Olifin will 
mar worse than Dynel or Fiber glass but I wanted
protection not 
beauty. Repairs will be a bit harder but with a
boat like the 
Wyo motoring say at 14 knts up river and hitting a
log, I 
wanted the best impact resistance I could
afford. Especially 
with 1/2" ply side panels. 
 
On a canoe or kayak, it would look the worse for wear
after 
hitting a few rocks and such. Fiber glass or
Dynel would be 
better. 
 
Jeff 
 
 
</tt>

 



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Hard to argue with the conclusion that plain glass is
the way to go.

--- "Harry W. James" <welshman@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
 
 
lulalake_1999 wrote:

>

Angel of information eh, this web sites riddled with
them. 
 
HJ 
 
Harry,

> 
> This AM some angel of information sent me this

very good explanation

> of various other-than-fiberglass materials. 
> 
> <a

href="http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#olifinanch">http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#olifinanch</a>

> 
> The tests and examples of transparency, strengths

and weaknesses are

> well done. I suggest any exploration into

alternative materials

> start here. 
> 
> Jules

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca

lulalake_1999 wrote:

>

Angel of information eh, this web sites riddled with them.

HJ

Harry,

>
> This AM some angel of information sent me this very good explanation
> of various other-than-fiberglass materials.
>
>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#olifinanch
>
> The tests and examples of transparency, strengths and weaknesses are
> well done. I suggest any exploration into alternative materials
> start here.
>
> Jules
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> > Jeff
> >
> > How about transparency. You can make 6 oz fiberglass almost
> disappear
> > over luan and varnish it later, can you do this with the olefin?
> >
> > HJ
> > > *******************
> > >
> > >

>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#olifinanch
>
> The tests and examples of transparency, strengths and
> weaknesses are well done. I suggest any exploration into
> alternative materials
> start here.
>

This site is where I decided on Dynel or Olifin. Olifin will
mar worse than Dynel or Fiber glass but I wanted protection not
beauty. Repairs will be a bit harder but with a boat like the
Wyo motoring say at 14 knts up river and hitting a log, I
wanted the best impact resistance I could afford. Especially
with 1/2" ply side panels.

On a canoe or kayak, it would look the worse for wear after
hitting a few rocks and such. Fiber glass or Dynel would be
better.

Jeff

> How about transparency. You can make 6 oz fiberglass almost
> disappear over luan and varnish it later, can you do this
> with the olefin?

No really. It goes somewhat transparent but not well. Only
for painted boats.

Jeff

Harry,

This AM some angel of information sent me this very good explanation
of various other-than-fiberglass materials.

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm#olifinanch

The tests and examples of transparency, strengths and weaknesses are
well done. I suggest any exploration into alternative materials
start here.

Jules

--- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Jeff
>
> How about transparency. You can make 6 oz fiberglass almost
disappear
> over luan and varnish it later, can you do this with the olefin?
>
> HJ
> > *******************
> >
> > >From what I understand, if you had a scale of 1 to 10 where 10
> > is Kevlar and 1 is 8 oz. fiber glass, 4 oz. Olifin would sit
> > somewhere around a 7 for impact resistance. Same scale only
> > with Carbon Fiber, Olifin would sit about 6 for abrassion and
> > strength.
> >
> > It cost about a $1.50 a yard more and takes about the same
> > amount of epoxy as 8 oz. fiberglass. Drapes very nicely. If
> > you just dump epoxy on dry plywood and Olifin like I would
> > fiber glass it will float and give you fits but if done as I
> > described it works very well.
> >
> > This AM I added a second filler coat of micro balloons and
> > epoxy. Next is a light sanding and a final coat of straight
> > epoxy to smooth it up. Time will tell if the finish work is
> > easier that fiber glass. So far it's very smooth with little
> > effort compared to my experience with fiber glass.
> >
> > Jeff
> >

Jeff

How about transparency. You can make 6 oz fiberglass almost disappear
over luan and varnish it later, can you do this with the olefin?

HJ

> *******************
>
> >From what I understand, if you had a scale of 1 to 10 where 10
> is Kevlar and 1 is 8 oz. fiber glass, 4 oz. Olifin would sit
> somewhere around a 7 for impact resistance. Same scale only
> with Carbon Fiber, Olifin would sit about 6 for abrassion and
> strength.
>
> It cost about a $1.50 a yard more and takes about the same
> amount of epoxy as 8 oz. fiberglass. Drapes very nicely. If
> you just dump epoxy on dry plywood and Olifin like I would
> fiber glass it will float and give you fits but if done as I
> described it works very well.
>
> This AM I added a second filler coat of micro balloons and
> epoxy. Next is a light sanding and a final coat of straight
> epoxy to smooth it up. Time will tell if the finish work is
> easier that fiber glass. So far it's very smooth with little
> effort compared to my experience with fiber glass.
>
> Jeff
>

> Jeff, could you explain roughly what Olifin is?

****************
Defender Catalog:

Olifin Spun Polypropylene
60" Wide
Less Than 35 Yards

Of All The Synthetic Laminate Fabrics Polypropylene Yarn Is The
Strongest And Most Versatile. The Same Yarn Which Is Popularly
Used In Heavily Trafficked Commercial Carpeting Is Used Here To
Create Bulk Comparable To 7. 5 Oz. Fiberglass But With Greater
Strength And More Rapid Wet-out (although Not As Fast As Dynel
Or Xynole). High Flexibility For Working Decks, Extremely High
Impact Strength. Made Of Two-ply Spun Yarn Which Is Often Used
For Auto Body Work, Work Boat Repairs, Stage Scenery, With Less
Pronounced Surface Texture Than Fiberglass. Weight 4. 0 Oz. Per
Square Yard, Weave 18 X 18. Polypropylene Can Be Cut Into
Strips To Use As A Tape If Needed. Width - 60".

*******************

From what I understand, if you had a scale of 1 to 10 where 10
is Kevlar and 1 is 8 oz. fiber glass, 4 oz. Olifin would sit
somewhere around a 7 for impact resistance. Same scale only
with Carbon Fiber, Olifin would sit about 6 for abrassion and
strength.

It cost about a $1.50 a yard more and takes about the same
amount of epoxy as 8 oz. fiberglass. Drapes very nicely. If
you just dump epoxy on dry plywood and Olifin like I would
fiber glass it will float and give you fits but if done as I
described it works very well.

This AM I added a second filler coat of micro balloons and
epoxy. Next is a light sanding and a final coat of straight
epoxy to smooth it up. Time will tell if the finish work is
easier that fiber glass. So far it's very smooth with little
effort compared to my experience with fiber glass.

Jeff

Jeff, could you explain roughly what Olifin is?

Thanks

Jules

--- In bolger@y..., <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> Busy so far to day on the Wyo. Got 1/3 of the bottom laminated
> up using epoxy and lot's of boat nails.
>
> Also layed fabric on one of the side panels. I'm using Olifin
> fabric and I'm impressed so far. Per Defender's help line, I
> laid on a layer of thinned epoxy over the panel and allowed it
> to soak in to rejection. I let it set up for about 4 hours
> until it got tacky like fly paper.
>
> I then rolled on the Olifin which was very easy to shape
> compared to fiber glass and rolled it into the very tacky epoxy
> with a fabric wet out roller but all the while the top of the
> cloth was dry and we could work it without gloves.
>
> After this all set up for another 4 hours, I put the first
> filler coat of epoxy. Using a flat plastic trowel, I wet out
> the fabric and kept gently squeezing the excess out.
>
> So far it seems a lot easier to work with than fiber glass. No
> bubbles, no wrinkles from over stretch, no float, very smooth,
> and no itch.
>
> Jeff

Busy so far to day on the Wyo. Got 1/3 of the bottom laminated
up using epoxy and lot's of boat nails.

Also layed fabric on one of the side panels. I'm using Olifin
fabric and I'm impressed so far. Per Defender's help line, I
laid on a layer of thinned epoxy over the panel and allowed it
to soak in to rejection. I let it set up for about 4 hours
until it got tacky like fly paper.

I then rolled on the Olifin which was very easy to shape
compared to fiber glass and rolled it into the very tacky epoxy
with a fabric wet out roller but all the while the top of the
cloth was dry and we could work it without gloves.

After this all set up for another 4 hours, I put the first
filler coat of epoxy. Using a flat plastic trowel, I wet out
the fabric and kept gently squeezing the excess out.

So far it seems a lot easier to work with than fiber glass. No
bubbles, no wrinkles from over stretch, no float, very smooth,
and no itch.

Jeff

Hi Paul
Nice photos, the wind has slowed my Sneakeasy forays in Casco Bay as
well! I remember that rainbow though. Nice pictures and a wonderful
job on the Gypsy. I'll see you on the bay!

Steve Bosquette

--- In bolger@y..., "prthober" <prthober@p...> wrote:
> Hi group,
>
> Just uploaded three photos of the Helen P. Foster in
action. "Before

Harry,

The folder is called "Paul Thober" (appears as "Paul Tho..." on my
computer) and is in the Photos page of this site.

Paul

--- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Where did you upload them too? I looked through files and photos for
> Bolger and Bolger 2 and could not find them.
>
>
> HJ
>
>
> prthober wrote:
> >
> > Hi group,
> >
> > Just uploaded three photos of the Helen P. Foster in action.

Where did you upload them too? I looked through files and photos for
Bolger and Bolger 2 and could not find them.

HJ

prthober wrote:

>
> Hi group,
>
> Just uploaded three photos of the Helen P. Foster in action.

Paul, great pics and nice looking boat. Congratulations.

Dennis

Hi group,

Just uploaded three photos of the Helen P. Foster in action. "Before
the rainbow" and the "Rainbow" shots were from an excursion aroung
Great Diamond Island here is Casco Bay - fun sail although I got
drenched. "Slamming into the dock" was yesterday when there was too
much wind. I went out again this evening and it was even windier -
probably force 5 - got sheets of spray in my face several times and
water pouring into the cockpit once - great fun! I looked back at my
wake a couple of times and it looked like I had a ten horsepower
motor on the transom.

Cut the first pieces wood for my Chebacco today. Am making the spars
first. Using HD spruce 2x10's scarfed to avoind the defects.

Cheers,

Paul