Re: [bolger] Re: Leaks in the bow well ?
The filleting and taping can be done with longist
sticks, such as when sealing halves of a kayak.
Getting the thing ready for sealing might be more difficult.
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sticks, such as when sealing halves of a kayak.
Getting the thing ready for sealing might be more difficult.
______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca
Hi Frank,
Here is the paragraph that got me confused;
The failure was in the bond between the fillets and the epoxy coated
plywood on the floor of the bow well. Every piece of
wood in the
boat was epoxy coated before assembly. The wood is in
great
condition (built in 1994). I can think of two
explanations for the
failure:
1) insufficient surface prep before applying the
fillets. I
certainly can understand how this might happen after
spending 4 hours
in that little space. It is a very hard area to get
into.
2) Extra stresses from the mast tabernacle
It was not clear to me exactly where or how the leak(s) were
occuring.I know Bolger takes pains to instruct builders of the
AS-29,Micro et al. to ensure that the foremost bulkhead(no.1)be made
absolutely water-tight.
I empathize with you entirely regarding the nasty work space you
have to perform in and hope that it does not cause you too much grief.
The cure suggested by Thomas D. sounds like just the ticket for
success,especially if you fillet and tape all around the floatation
chambers(to beef up the wholes works from what you suggest may be
stress from the mast)!
Best of luck with your repairs and I hope you can get some
pictures(sailing,motoring,on deck,interior...you know,the works...)
posted in PHOTO section for us hopeless romantics to appreciate :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,from the shores of the windy St.Lawrence...........
Here is the paragraph that got me confused;
The failure was in the bond between the fillets and the epoxy coated
plywood on the floor of the bow well. Every piece of
wood in the
boat was epoxy coated before assembly. The wood is in
great
condition (built in 1994). I can think of two
explanations for the
failure:
1) insufficient surface prep before applying the
fillets. I
certainly can understand how this might happen after
spending 4 hours
in that little space. It is a very hard area to get
into.
2) Extra stresses from the mast tabernacle
It was not clear to me exactly where or how the leak(s) were
occuring.I know Bolger takes pains to instruct builders of the
AS-29,Micro et al. to ensure that the foremost bulkhead(no.1)be made
absolutely water-tight.
I empathize with you entirely regarding the nasty work space you
have to perform in and hope that it does not cause you too much grief.
The cure suggested by Thomas D. sounds like just the ticket for
success,especially if you fillet and tape all around the floatation
chambers(to beef up the wholes works from what you suggest may be
stress from the mast)!
Best of luck with your repairs and I hope you can get some
pictures(sailing,motoring,on deck,interior...you know,the works...)
posted in PHOTO section for us hopeless romantics to appreciate :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,from the shores of the windy St.Lawrence...........
--- In bolger@y..., "sanmi" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
> Peter,
I know she leaks at the foremost bulkhead (bulkhead 1) because
I
> have seen and felt the water trickling through the seam. Now that
> I've removed the failed epoxy, I can see the gap where water was
> entering.
>
> Frank
>
>
Peter,
My Family and I sailed her for a week before bringing her down to the
US. I know she leaks at the foremost bulkhead (bulkhead 1) because I
have seen and felt the water trickling through the seam. Now that
I've removed the failed epoxy, I can see the gap where water was
entering.
As for the wedge, Bolger calls it the "stop for the mast heel locking
staff" I needed to remove it because it was in my way for repairing
all of the epoxy fillets. An unfortunate obstruction, because it was
very well fastened!
Frank
--- In bolger@y..., "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
wrote:
My Family and I sailed her for a week before bringing her down to the
US. I know she leaks at the foremost bulkhead (bulkhead 1) because I
have seen and felt the water trickling through the seam. Now that
I've removed the failed epoxy, I can see the gap where water was
entering.
As for the wedge, Bolger calls it the "stop for the mast heel locking
staff" I needed to remove it because it was in my way for repairing
all of the epoxy fillets. An unfortunate obstruction, because it was
very well fastened!
Frank
--- In bolger@y..., "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
wrote:
> Frank,bow
> You pose a rather interesting question considering that the
> well on the AS-29 is designed to be free-flooding and as such maybe
> said to be in an almost perpetual state of"leaking".serves
> The forward most bulkhead,however,must be water-tight ;-)
> I can't see where that little wedge you have removed(which only
> to secure the lower end of that staff which keeps the mainmastupright
> could be a source of leakage either(see above note on free-foodingthe
> well) as it is forward of the water-tight bulkhead.
> Are there not two nifty little drain holes in the bottom of
> hull,immediately forward of the cabin bulkhead?next
> It is perfectly normal to see water sloshing around up
> front,especially if you are standing up there looking down into the
> well.Get another person to join you and watch the water rise even
> higher.But fear not,it all will drain back out through the drain
> holes!
> However,if you have water leaking into the cabin,I would
> seriously consider checking around the two leeboard cases for water
> marks.If this is all dry,then the foreward bulkhead would be my
> inspection site followed by a close look at hatch and portlightseals.
> If you would like to add perhaps a neat trick to re-attaching
> structural members ie;framing stock around bulkheads or even that
> wedge,check this out:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/Hollow1.JPG
>
> Hope some of this helps!Let us know what you do.
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,who once came dangerously close to building the
> AS-29,from the shores of the St.Lawrence................
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "sanmi" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
>
> repairing some leaks, the most
> > pronounced of which is in the bow well.
> > Frank San Miguel
> > Wilmington, DE
Frank,
You pose a rather interesting question considering that the bow
well on the AS-29 is designed to be free-flooding and as such may be
said to be in an almost perpetual state of"leaking".
The forward most bulkhead,however,must be water-tight ;-)
I can't see where that little wedge you have removed(which only serves
to secure the lower end of that staff which keeps the mainmast upright
could be a source of leakage either(see above note on free-fooding
well) as it is forward of the water-tight bulkhead.
Are there not two nifty little drain holes in the bottom of the
hull,immediately forward of the cabin bulkhead?
It is perfectly normal to see water sloshing around up
front,especially if you are standing up there looking down into the
well.Get another person to join you and watch the water rise even
higher.But fear not,it all will drain back out through the drain
holes!
However,if you have water leaking into the cabin,I would
seriously consider checking around the two leeboard cases for water
marks.If this is all dry,then the foreward bulkhead would be my next
inspection site followed by a close look at hatch and portlight seals.
If you would like to add perhaps a neat trick to re-attaching
structural members ie;framing stock around bulkheads or even that
wedge,check this out:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/Hollow1.JPG
Hope some of this helps!Let us know what you do.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who once came dangerously close to building the
AS-29,from the shores of the St.Lawrence................
You pose a rather interesting question considering that the bow
well on the AS-29 is designed to be free-flooding and as such may be
said to be in an almost perpetual state of"leaking".
The forward most bulkhead,however,must be water-tight ;-)
I can't see where that little wedge you have removed(which only serves
to secure the lower end of that staff which keeps the mainmast upright
could be a source of leakage either(see above note on free-fooding
well) as it is forward of the water-tight bulkhead.
Are there not two nifty little drain holes in the bottom of the
hull,immediately forward of the cabin bulkhead?
It is perfectly normal to see water sloshing around up
front,especially if you are standing up there looking down into the
well.Get another person to join you and watch the water rise even
higher.But fear not,it all will drain back out through the drain
holes!
However,if you have water leaking into the cabin,I would
seriously consider checking around the two leeboard cases for water
marks.If this is all dry,then the foreward bulkhead would be my next
inspection site followed by a close look at hatch and portlight seals.
If you would like to add perhaps a neat trick to re-attaching
structural members ie;framing stock around bulkheads or even that
wedge,check this out:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/Hollow1.JPG
Hope some of this helps!Let us know what you do.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who once came dangerously close to building the
AS-29,from the shores of the St.Lawrence................
--- In bolger@y..., "sanmi" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
repairing some leaks, the most
> pronounced of which is in the bow well.
> Frank San Miguel
> Wilmington, DE
That should do it.
Those fillets are for full strength, like hanging a
shelf on a wall. Non-mainstrength bulkheads may not
require that much, but this one with it's spar sounds
mainstrength to me. On my tri they were tabbed with
20 oz DBX, which is really heavy stuff.
nteresting! I assume that's 1 3/4" radius.
Right, but if your ply is say 1/2", that is a whole
other country. Which is why it makes sense to glass,
its cheaper and faster. Also on my tri all the fillet
where 3/4". or 1" radius, but as mentioned glassed
beyond a certain point.
______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca
Those fillets are for full strength, like hanging a
shelf on a wall. Non-mainstrength bulkheads may not
require that much, but this one with it's spar sounds
mainstrength to me. On my tri they were tabbed with
20 oz DBX, which is really heavy stuff.
nteresting! I assume that's 1 3/4" radius.
Right, but if your ply is say 1/2", that is a whole
other country. Which is why it makes sense to glass,
its cheaper and faster. Also on my tri all the fillet
where 3/4". or 1" radius, but as mentioned glassed
beyond a certain point.
______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
were about 1" radius, so that is another possible source of failure.
The boat was kept in Canada on the St. Lawrence, so there was plenty
of thaw-freeze (she is in Maryland now).
I am planning to make new fillets and then add a strip of glass over
the fillets.
Frank San Miguel
Wilmington, DE
> I assume that area was not glassed.Corrrect
> On my tri, theInteresting! I assume that's 1 3/4" radius. The fillets that failed
> designer specs were to glass every exterior surface.
> It got painful when one surface ran into another than
> ran inside etc... you had to decide where to stop.
> Generaly the areas I stopped at have proved to be
> subsequent maintenance problems (no rot so far). The
> GBBC point out that low density fillets need to be 1
> 3/4" for 1/4" ply to pick up full strength, but I have
> seen many failures where glass isn't used, and the
> fillet is exterior. Something like a stress raiser
> seems to happen, then maybe water gets in. Of course
> it freezes up here.
>
were about 1" radius, so that is another possible source of failure.
The boat was kept in Canada on the St. Lawrence, so there was plenty
of thaw-freeze (she is in Maryland now).
I am planning to make new fillets and then add a strip of glass over
the fillets.
Frank San Miguel
Wilmington, DE
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
coated and cured first. The break was nice and clean on the bottom.
>laid. That
> Bet the wood was epoxy coated and cured before the fillets were
> would leave only a mechanical bond between the wood coating and thefillet
> epoxy. Was the break clean at the fillet/wood boundry?I'm not sure about the layup process, but I think you are correct -
coated and cured first. The break was nice and clean on the bottom.
----- Original Message -----
From: "sanmi" <sanmi@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:40 AM
Subject: [bolger] Leaks in the bow well ?
| chiseled each piece out and removed the 10 or so screws with vise
| grips (the heads were sealed with epoxy). A old-time mortising
| chisel does a good job here because it is much beefier than a typical
| chisel!
Heat up a screw driver and push it down into the head of the screws to clean
them out for extraction. Even works if they have been glassed over, but you
need to cut an X on the glass to prevent delamination when the screw backs
out.
|
| The failure was in the bond between the fillets and the epoxy coated
| plywood on the floor of the bow well. Every piece of wood in the
| boat was epoxy coated before assembly. The wood is in great
| condition (built in 1994). I can think of two explanations for the
| failure:
| 1) insufficient surface prep before applying the fillets. I
| certainly can understand how this might happen after spending 4 hours
| in that little space. It is a very hard area to get into.
| 2) Extra stresses from the mast tabernacle
|
Bet the wood was epoxy coated and cured before the fillets were laid. That
would leave only a mechanical bond between the wood coating and the fillet
epoxy. Was the break clean at the fillet/wood boundry?
|
I assume that area was not glassed. On my tri, the
designer specs were to glass every exterior surface.
It got painful when one surface ran into another than
ran inside etc... you had to decide where to stop.
Generaly the areas I stopped at have proved to be
subsequent maintenance problems (no rot so far). The
GBBC point out that low density fillets need to be 1
3/4" for 1/4" ply to pick up full strength, but I have
seen many failures where glass isn't used, and the
fillet is exterior. Something like a stress raiser
seems to happen, then maybe water gets in. Of course
it freezes up here.
--- So .... I'd like to know whether other
owners/builders of boats with <BR>
similar geometries (Micro, Martha Jane, AS-19. AS-29,
etc) have <BR>
experienced similar problems in the bow well. I
want to make sure my <BR>
repairs will last a while....<BR>
<BR>
I'll summarize the response for the group.<BR>
<
______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca
designer specs were to glass every exterior surface.
It got painful when one surface ran into another than
ran inside etc... you had to decide where to stop.
Generaly the areas I stopped at have proved to be
subsequent maintenance problems (no rot so far). The
GBBC point out that low density fillets need to be 1
3/4" for 1/4" ply to pick up full strength, but I have
seen many failures where glass isn't used, and the
fillet is exterior. Something like a stress raiser
seems to happen, then maybe water gets in. Of course
it freezes up here.
--- So .... I'd like to know whether other
owners/builders of boats with <BR>
similar geometries (Micro, Martha Jane, AS-19. AS-29,
etc) have <BR>
experienced similar problems in the bow well. I
want to make sure my <BR>
repairs will last a while....<BR>
<BR>
I'll summarize the response for the group.<BR>
<
______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date!http://personals.yahoo.ca
Seems to be the season for discussing repairs so I might as
well "chine in" (get it :-)).
I am in the process of getting Alisa (AS-29) ready for the water. I
bought her knowing I would be repairing some leaks, the most
pronounced of which is in the bow well. I spent about four hours
chopping out epoxy fillets in the bow well and a chopping out 10" x
11" wedge that is glued/screwed to the floor in the bow well. Access
is very restricted in there because the well is about 1.5' wide x 4'
deep x 3' high. I used a hammer and chisel for the fillets. I used
a Japanese saw to slice the 10x11 block into 1" segments then
chiseled each piece out and removed the 10 or so screws with vise
grips (the heads were sealed with epoxy). A old-time mortising
chisel does a good job here because it is much beefier than a typical
chisel!
The failure was in the bond between the fillets and the epoxy coated
plywood on the floor of the bow well. Every piece of wood in the
boat was epoxy coated before assembly. The wood is in great
condition (built in 1994). I can think of two explanations for the
failure:
1) insufficient surface prep before applying the fillets. I
certainly can understand how this might happen after spending 4 hours
in that little space. It is a very hard area to get into.
2) Extra stresses from the mast tabernacle
I just bought this nifty Bosch 1 1/2" mini belt sander from "Tools On
Sale" for $135 that will allow me to fully prep the area with one
hand before applying the new fillets.
So .... I'd like to know whether other owners/builders of boats with
similar geometries (Micro, Martha Jane, AS-19. AS-29, etc) have
experienced similar problems in the bow well. I want to make sure my
repairs will last a while....
I'll summarize the response for the group.
Frank San Miguel
Wilmington, DE
well "chine in" (get it :-)).
I am in the process of getting Alisa (AS-29) ready for the water. I
bought her knowing I would be repairing some leaks, the most
pronounced of which is in the bow well. I spent about four hours
chopping out epoxy fillets in the bow well and a chopping out 10" x
11" wedge that is glued/screwed to the floor in the bow well. Access
is very restricted in there because the well is about 1.5' wide x 4'
deep x 3' high. I used a hammer and chisel for the fillets. I used
a Japanese saw to slice the 10x11 block into 1" segments then
chiseled each piece out and removed the 10 or so screws with vise
grips (the heads were sealed with epoxy). A old-time mortising
chisel does a good job here because it is much beefier than a typical
chisel!
The failure was in the bond between the fillets and the epoxy coated
plywood on the floor of the bow well. Every piece of wood in the
boat was epoxy coated before assembly. The wood is in great
condition (built in 1994). I can think of two explanations for the
failure:
1) insufficient surface prep before applying the fillets. I
certainly can understand how this might happen after spending 4 hours
in that little space. It is a very hard area to get into.
2) Extra stresses from the mast tabernacle
I just bought this nifty Bosch 1 1/2" mini belt sander from "Tools On
Sale" for $135 that will allow me to fully prep the area with one
hand before applying the new fillets.
So .... I'd like to know whether other owners/builders of boats with
similar geometries (Micro, Martha Jane, AS-19. AS-29, etc) have
experienced similar problems in the bow well. I want to make sure my
repairs will last a while....
I'll summarize the response for the group.
Frank San Miguel
Wilmington, DE