Re: Environmentally OK Plywood? (fwd)

> These trips were written up in WB #104. Call it a trivial luxury

for children of the

> prosperous; for most of the world, so is eating 3 meals a day.

Now who is guilty of absolutism...

Mark, you know if I continue to rise to this bait I will just end up
getting sent off to the Bolger time-out-chair by all those people who
just tune in to talk about new uses for Sikaflex...

I am going to sit quietly for a moment until a really interesting
thread about building Wyo. with offcuts of waterproof drywall pops up.

By the way, I got my copy of the 1983 "Bolger Boats" lots of good
stuff including offsets for Dovekie; a whole slew of article on boats
I have actualy built, like Elegant Punt; boats I have plans for like
Black Skimmer (anyone want to buy these?). I learned about these
boats from others than Bolger, so it is intersting to run accross his
comments on them also.

Threw some glue at Fat Eeek the other day. When it stops raining,
maybe I will get her decked.

BRAVO MARK!!!!!!!


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Albanese [mailto:marka@...]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 7:43 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Environmentally OK Plywood? (fwd)




proaconstrictor wrote:

>
> Exactly Mark, and the way to win a zero sum game like that is to kick
> as big a dent in Indonesia as possible.

Dear Thomas,

Though I think you 're just being deliberately provacative,
from this left coast, winged out, muddle headed, vegetarian bleeding heart,
"Ouch."
Whaddayagonnado when there's no more Indonesia? Or when the people there get
so tired of
you're own ruthless attitude they start throwing bombs at you ?

> If I really worried about it, I wouldn't build boats. Paddling
> Alaska (or whatever this thread started with) is just a tourism
> thing, no matter whose plywood you use. "Think globaly act localy"
> now reads "think globaly, then visit". Did anyone fly to reach this
> Jamboree? Did they use only environmentaly approved aviation fuel.
> Presumably they are only using green power to ramp up their internet
> search.

This is the essence of absolutist thinking. "If you can't be perfect, why do
anything?"
That's the source of much neurotic inaction in both public and our private
lives, of
fiddling while Rome burns.

I'll tell you the truth: I'm not so attached to the squalid, bitterly cruel
overall
existence on this planet as all of that. I do believe, however, that it's
not smart or
responsible to use up
more than we have to or, worse, perfidiously destroy what we do not
understand

>
> I am not agaisnt people thinking about their impact.

Then why argue so strongly against it?

>But, when you
> are really commited to something, you don't ask the cost. At the
> core of what we do, there is something we will all squash a gnat
> for. Whether it is our children, or our life's work. If that isn't
> how we feel about woodworking, then perhaps we are just tourists in
> that sphere too, and should consider the impact of our every footstep.

"It's not what you do but how you do it."
"The way you do anything is the way you do everything."

With apologies to GHC,
Mark

>
> --- In bolger@y..., Mark Albanese <marka@h...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > proaconstrictor wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't personaly care where it comes from, the further away the
> > > better.
> >
> > The problem is, TD, it all comes from this planet!
> >
> > Mark
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,

01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349

> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>


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- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

proaconstrictor wrote:

>
> >
> The essence of my thinking is if you can't be consistent, don't bore
> me with the news releases. I smell a wiff of hypocracy in the idea
> that they can do the right thing by finding the right way to expand
> their consumerism.

For extended hilarity on this theme, read David Brook's 'Bobos in Paradise.'

>Is it more appealing to paddle Alaska than where
> they live now.

Julie Shoemaker isn't planning that. Read it again.

>
> Dear Mr. Kohnen,
>
> I found your email address on your plywood boat-links
> page on the internet. I am interested in what
> you know about the origin of different marine
> plywoods. I am leading a trip this summer for the
> Chewonki Foundation (an environmental organization)
> where we build plywood kayaks with 8 participants and
> then spend the rest of the summer kayaking the boats
> up the Maine coast. We have built the boats out of
> Luaun and had trouble with checking and have switched
> to Meranti. My concern with both of these woods is
> that their removal has heavy environmental impacts. I
> am attempting to find a wood that is more
> "environmentally friendly" and I am looking into the
> Okoume and the Fir plywoods as well as other options.
> If you have any advice on the matter or can direct me
> to someone who would, it would be extremely helpful.
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Sincerely,
> Julie Shoemaker

Her letter doesn't strike me as hypocrisy; just a consistent attempt to do things in a
better way than they've done before. It's only rooted in the belief that what you do
matters.

These trips were written up in WB #104. Call it a trivial luxury for children of the
prosperous; for most of the world, so is eating 3 meals a day.

>If one wants to be an environmentalist, do what I did
> on my aching legs this afternoon: I took one of my daughters for a
> shoulder ride in the neighbourhood I picked her some random flowers.
> Somehow I feel more OK about that, environmentaly, than extreme
> paddling in Alaska, even aboard certified plywood kayaks.

Agreed!

Mark

> >
> > Exactly Mark, and the way to win a zero sum game like that is to

kick

> > as big a dent in Indonesia as possible.
>
> Dear Thomas,
>
> Though I think you 're just being deliberately provacative,

Thanks, I'm not trying to be boring, but I am serious. NIMBY has a
bad rap, but honestly its often the best I can do.

> from this left coast, winged out, muddle headed, vegetarian

bleeding heart, "Ouch."

> Whaddayagonnado when there's no more Indonesia? Or when the people

there get so tired of

> you're own ruthless attitude they start throwing bombs at you ?

Well the slick answer is that economic affairs don't have to be loose
loose, but cutting down noble trees does. We can pay them for them
for instance, but I'd rather they came out of someone else's
watershed than mine, or yours. Having seen the boatloads of big
trees steaming past Astoria on their way West I feel for you.
Somewhere in Japan there is a guy planing a beautiful piece of Port
Orford Cedar.

> > Presumably they are only using green power to ramp up their

internet

> > search.
>
> This is the essence of absolutist thinking. "If you can't be

perfect, why do anything?"

The essence of my thinking is if you can't be consistent, don't bore
me with the news releases. I smell a wiff of hypocracy in the idea
that they can do the right thing by finding the right way to expand
their consumerism. Is it more appealing to paddle Alaska than where
they live now. If one wants to be an environmentalist, do what I did
on my aching legs this afternoon: I took one of my daughters for a
shoulder ride in the neighbourhood I picked her some random flowers.
Somehow I feel more OK about that, environmentaly, than extreme
paddling in Alaska, even aboard certified plywood kayaks.

> >
> > I am not agaisnt people thinking about their impact.
>
> Then why argue so strongly against it?

I argue against the thought that may have gone into it (accepting it
is like 5th hand by now), more thought seems required to me. But I
don't say that from the high hat, it is possible that people in this
group know more about wood than just what of it is certified. It is
and isn't that precious. Whenever they nock down a noble tree around
here, it seems to be chipped, and carted off for mulch. It is and
isn't that precious.

Let's get real - There is no such animal as "Enviromentally OK
Plywood" It's an oxymoron to begin with.

Paddling a kayak instead of running an outboard is certainly
environmentally friendly, but the type of plywood one uses to build
it means diddley squat to the environment. The emmissions and poisons
created to manufacture and deliver the plywood and then get to and
from the water are far more damaging!

Now lets get back to building boats!

Nels

--- In bolger@y..., Mark Albanese <marka@h...> wrote:
>
>
> proaconstrictor wrote:
> >
> > Exactly Mark, and the way to win a zero sum game like that is to
kick
> > as big a dent in Indonesia as possible.
>

proaconstrictor wrote:

>
> Exactly Mark, and the way to win a zero sum game like that is to kick
> as big a dent in Indonesia as possible.

Dear Thomas,

Though I think you 're just being deliberately provacative,
from this left coast, winged out, muddle headed, vegetarian bleeding heart, "Ouch."
Whaddayagonnado when there's no more Indonesia? Or when the people there get so tired of
you're own ruthless attitude they start throwing bombs at you ?

> If I really worried about it, I wouldn't build boats. Paddling
> Alaska (or whatever this thread started with) is just a tourism
> thing, no matter whose plywood you use. "Think globaly act localy"
> now reads "think globaly, then visit". Did anyone fly to reach this
> Jamboree? Did they use only environmentaly approved aviation fuel.
> Presumably they are only using green power to ramp up their internet
> search.

This is the essence of absolutist thinking. "If you can't be perfect, why do anything?"
That's the source of much neurotic inaction in both public and our private lives, of
fiddling while Rome burns.

I'll tell you the truth: I'm not so attached to the squalid, bitterly cruel overall
existence on this planet as all of that. I do believe, however, that it's not smart or
responsible to use up
more than we have to or, worse, perfidiously destroy what we do not understand

>
> I am not agaisnt people thinking about their impact.

Then why argue so strongly against it?

>But, when you
> are really commited to something, you don't ask the cost. At the
> core of what we do, there is something we will all squash a gnat
> for. Whether it is our children, or our life's work. If that isn't
> how we feel about woodworking, then perhaps we are just tourists in
> that sphere too, and should consider the impact of our every footstep.

"It's not what you do but how you do it."
"The way you do anything is the way you do everything."

With apologies to GHC,
Mark

>
> --- In bolger@y..., Mark Albanese <marka@h...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > proaconstrictor wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't personaly care where it comes from, the further away the
> > > better.
> >
> > The problem is, TD, it all comes from this planet!
> >
> > Mark
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

You hit the nail squarely on the head.

The price list from the Chewonki Foundation:

http://www.chewonki.org/trips_info.htm

They do have a gorgeous lapstake ketch. Why not build another with
local materials supporting local craftsmen and vendors instead of
some plywood kayak?????????????????

> If I really worried about it, I wouldn't build boats. Paddling
> Alaska (or whatever this thread started with) is just a tourism
> thing, no matter whose plywood you use. "Think globaly act localy"
> now reads "think globaly, then visit". Did anyone fly to reach

this

> Jamboree? Did they use only environmentaly approved aviation

fuel.

> Presumably they are only using green power to ramp up their

internet

> search.
>
> I am not agaisnt people thinking about their impact. But, when you
> are really commited to something, you don't ask the cost. At the
> core of what we do, there is something we will all squash a gnat
> for. Whether it is our children, or our life's work. If that

isn't

> how we feel about woodworking, then perhaps we are just tourists in
> that sphere too, and should consider the impact of our every

footstep.

>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., Mark Albanese <marka@h...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > proaconstrictor wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't personaly care where it comes from, the further away the
> > > better.
> >
> > The problem is, TD, it all comes from this planet!
> >
> > Mark

Exactly Mark, and the way to win a zero sum game like that is to kick
as big a dent in Indonesia as possible.

If I really worried about it, I wouldn't build boats. Paddling
Alaska (or whatever this thread started with) is just a tourism
thing, no matter whose plywood you use. "Think globaly act localy"
now reads "think globaly, then visit". Did anyone fly to reach this
Jamboree? Did they use only environmentaly approved aviation fuel.
Presumably they are only using green power to ramp up their internet
search.

I am not agaisnt people thinking about their impact. But, when you
are really commited to something, you don't ask the cost. At the
core of what we do, there is something we will all squash a gnat
for. Whether it is our children, or our life's work. If that isn't
how we feel about woodworking, then perhaps we are just tourists in
that sphere too, and should consider the impact of our every footstep.

--- In bolger@y..., Mark Albanese <marka@h...> wrote:
>
>
> proaconstrictor wrote:
> >
> > I don't personaly care where it comes from, the further away the
> > better.
>
> The problem is, TD, it all comes from this planet!
>
> Mark

proaconstrictor wrote:

>
> I don't personaly care where it comes from, the further away the
> better.

The problem is, TD, it all comes from this planet!

Mark

I don't personaly care where it comes from, the further away the
better. But I understand the argument, and would consider several
alternatives. To fold up a kayak, you need a thin ply, and I would
consider birch. It is available in very thin sections that are
suitable for this kind of use. It is the only ply I have seen that
is available in less than 1/8". So one could mitigate the product's
weight.

The problem with this kind of thing is that there are all sorts of
arguments. But if industrial products are acceptible, then glass
could be used. So why not sacrifice one tree to fold up a mold, then
use glass to make all subsequent boats. If glass isn't acceptible,
but epoxy is, try the same thing, except use epoxy and paper in the
boat. No can do, how about abarol and paper, isn't the former made
from milk?

I think stripers are perfectly acceptible, and you can source lumber
with greater directness than ply. Sure it's most comonly old growth,
but if you don't use it, expect to see it in some deck.

Also there is the possibility of creating skinned boats, that opens
up about every material option known to man a lot of it garbage.

I recently visited Crosscut / Emerson Hardwoods here in Portland, partly in hopes of
finding sustainably forested ply. They have a very strong statement on the subject here.
https://www.emersonhardwood.com/ehc/product.asp?cID=131944035747367

In the store, I was told by the salesperson that she didn't think any of the ply on hand
was certified. "It's a tough sell" she said.

Another possibility is Edensaw. That's a long ship back to Chewonki, but they may be able
to tell which if any ply manufacturers are certified.
http://www.edensaw.com/mar.html

Richard Jagels, in the most recent WB, declares that sustainably forested imported ply is
preferable to domestic fir for him, so he may know where some must come from. He's a
professor of forest biology at U of Maine, Orono, but the byline always says to contact
him via WB.

I'd appreciate hearing what Ms. Shoemaker learns.

Mark

jhkohnen@...wrote:

>
> Can anybody here help her? I've already told her about The Certified Forest
> Products Council:
>
>http://www.certifiedwood.org/
>

Tell her to use Southern Yellow Pine because it comes from tree farms here in the good old USA that are managed for sustained yield. Of course the boats might be a tad on the heavy side.

chuck
Can anybody here help her? I've already told her about The Certified Forest
Products Council:

http://www.certifiedwood.org/

-------- Forwarded message --------
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 20:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie Shoemaker <shoemakerjk@...>
To:jkohnen@...
Subject: plywood boat building question

Dear Mr. Kohnen,

I found your email address on your plywood boat-links
page on the internet. I am interested in what
you know about the origin of different marine
plywoods. I am leading a trip this summer for the
Chewonki Foundation (an environmental organization)
where we build plywood kayaks with 8 participants and
then spend the rest of the summer kayaking the boats
up the maine coast. We have built the boats out of
Luaun and had trouble with checking and have switched
to Meranti. My concern with both of these woods is
that their removal has heavy environmental impacts. I
am attempting to find a wood that is more
"environmentally friendly" and I am looking into the
Okoume and the Fir plywoods as well as other options.
If you have any advice on the matter or can direct me
to someone who would, it would be extremely helpful.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
Julie Shoemaker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.
<Arthur C. Clarke>



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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can anybody here help her? I've already told her about The Certified Forest
Products Council:

http://www.certifiedwood.org/

-------- Forwarded message --------
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 20:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie Shoemaker <shoemakerjk@...>
To:jkohnen@...
Subject: plywood boat building question

Dear Mr. Kohnen,

I found your email address on your plywood boat-links
page on the internet. I am interested in what
you know about the origin of different marine
plywoods. I am leading a trip this summer for the
Chewonki Foundation (an environmental organization)
where we build plywood kayaks with 8 participants and
then spend the rest of the summer kayaking the boats
up the maine coast. We have built the boats out of
Luaun and had trouble with checking and have switched
to Meranti. My concern with both of these woods is
that their removal has heavy environmental impacts. I
am attempting to find a wood that is more
"environmentally friendly" and I am looking into the
Okoume and the Fir plywoods as well as other options.
If you have any advice on the matter or can direct me
to someone who would, it would be extremely helpful.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
Julie Shoemaker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.
<Arthur C. Clarke>