Re: Epoxy problem

Thanks for all help with my fillet problem. Btw. Uploaded a picture
of the small vertical plank aka fiddle (always thought of fiddle as a
string instrument) in the photo section, this forum, under William D
Jochems. It is a Night shot due to my nonfunctional blitz/flash. I
did not have time to remove the tarp to let day light in...
More interesting snap shots of finished boat will follow.
Bjørn

--- In bolger@y..., "bjharbo" <bharbo@o...> wrote:

> Thanks Peter,
> My other fillets are all right. The single fillet in question is

abt

> 10 inches long and between the counter and the small plank that
> inhibits items from falling down (don't remember the english term
> (not the norwegian either, for that matter...)) - no big deal. And
> like I said: easy to remove. The main problems are the voids in

the

> counter that will not be easy to clean out. I will do my best and

use

> knife/tooth picks and what have I to avoid the complete

desaster...

> And probably post a picture.
> And now: back to work
> Bjørn

Try using vinegar to remove the uncured epoxy -- works for clean-
up. Seems to me that denatured alcohol works too.

Jamie Orr

PS That little plank is probably a fiddle.

Not to worry. Different kind of urethane. I've seen that stuff work
well. Just make sure you have very good ventilation, as that stuff has
isocyanates in it. I seem to recall that isocyanates are not
stopped by typical vapor mask. Also, probably you should do it and
stages so as not to overfill, and make sure that there is an open
space at the top for extra to come out of. I have heard several
stories of this stuff making enclosed spaces swell up too much. I
don't know how well it will fill in around complicated small pieces
like styrofoam chunks, or whether styrofoam is chemically compatible.
I suppose if you work fast you could brush it onto the foam chunks
first or something. We used to have a gun that would shoot urethane
foam. Would have been fun if cheaper. Don't get it on your skin; I
seem to recall it sticks pretty hard.

--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> > BTW, I have used two part urethane which seemed to fail even if
> > carefully measured and mixed. Would only work well with mixing
> > nozzles. You haven't lived until you've had to dissect and recast
2
> > foot long, 3 inch thick urethane strain reliefs. But that's
urethane.
>
> I going to be mixing a pouring urethane tonight to foam in a water
tight
> floatation chamber. I plan to stuff a good deal of scrap styrofoam
in first
> then pour the two part urethane foam in to fill in the gaps.
Probably do a
> couple of layers.
>
> Anything I should know?
>
> Jeff

<I think in almost all cases, defective epoxy turns out to be epoxy
that wasn't mixed right>

Yeah I think youre right about that, at lease that's been my
experience also.

> 1. Get a flashlight, an observer, and a dark room.
> 2. Stand facing along the wall.
> 3. Turn the flashlight on and stick it in the ear away from the

wall.

> 4. If there is a spot of light on the wall, that's a failure!

Well I really disagree here, If the spot of light appears this means
absolute success. You're a natural born boatbuilder and should be
able to say "Bolger" without the hard "G".

I want my colors to be puce and '55 Ford aquamarine.

Cheers

Jules

--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
> see below:
> --- In bolger@y..., "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand your comments completely but I believe
the
> > idea that proffered was to dye the resin and the hardener
different
> > colors in order to determine whether the resin has
been "catalysed"
> > or not (Don't know the proper term, catalated, catalaqued,
> cat-o-nine-
> > tailed, catamarand, catatonic, Gin and hardener, mixelized,
stirred-
> > not-shaken, integrated, The list goes on)
>
> MIXED!
> >
> > It's impossible to tell whether a puddle of resin has been
> improperly
> > mixed-with-hardener or not mixed at all after it's been sitting
for
> a
> > day and is still wet.
>
> I disagree. It's impossible NOT to tell. If it's still sitting
there
> unset a day later, it wasn't mixed right! The time to discover
this is
> when you can do something about it. I think in almost all cases,
> defective epoxy turns out to be epoxy that wasn't mixed right. The
> only epoxy I ever encountered that didn't set right when mixed
> reasonably well was very old model airplane epoxy that had been
> sitting in small, opened containers for ages.
>
> > If there were dyes one could tell.
> >
> > I agree that it would take some strong color to tell.
>
> Actually, if the resin and hardener are two markedly different
colors,
> you're all set. It doesn't have to be a strong color, you just
have to
> be able to distinguish between resin, hardener, and a mix of resin
and
> hardener IN THE MIXING POT. SOme epoxies are already like this as
one
> component is clear and the other is amber. The color doesn't show
in
> thin layers. Of course you're not going to be able to measure the
> ratio or tell for absolutely sure how well the stuff is mixed.
> >
> As in all boatbuilding, it's possible to defeat these measures. I
> recommend that anyone who wants to build a boat should see if they
> pass the following test:
>
> 1. Get a flashlight, an observer, and a dark room.
> 2. Stand facing along the wall.
> 3. Turn the flashlight on and stick it in the ear away from the
wall.
> 4. If there is a spot of light on the wall, that's a failure!
>
> BTW, I have used two part urethane which seemed to fail even if
> carefully measured and mixed. Would only work well with mixing
> nozzles. You haven't lived until you've had to dissect and recast
2
> foot long, 3 inch thick urethane strain reliefs. But that's
urethane.

>I wonder if there is some kind of dye that we could put in different

parts of our epoxy<

I had some WEST epoxy for so long once that the hardener turned red. I was told it was from oxidizing and might not work well but used it anyway on a project that didn't matter. It was real handy to able to tell if the batch had hardener in it. But really, the flashlight test is real important for boatbuilders. After spending a day scraping and sanding off an uncatalyzed layer of resin I got more careful. If I am measuring like with 2/1 System Three I have transparent cups marked with magic marker for different size batches, like 4 oz resin, 2 oz hardener. It is impossible to not notice there is no hardener when you start mixing. With pumps, always do one squirt resin, one hardener, one resin, one hardener, etc. rather than three and three (how many was that?) Works for me.

Gary Lepak

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> BTW, I have used two part urethane which seemed to fail even if
> carefully measured and mixed. Would only work well with mixing
> nozzles. You haven't lived until you've had to dissect and recast 2
> foot long, 3 inch thick urethane strain reliefs. But that's urethane.

I going to be mixing a pouring urethane tonight to foam in a water tight
floatation chamber. I plan to stuff a good deal of scrap styrofoam in first
then pour the two part urethane foam in to fill in the gaps. Probably do a
couple of layers.

Anything I should know?

Jeff

see below:

--- In bolger@y..., "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure I understand your comments completely but I believe the
> idea that proffered was to dye the resin and the hardener different
> colors in order to determine whether the resin has been "catalysed"
> or not (Don't know the proper term, catalated, catalaqued,
cat-o-nine-
> tailed, catamarand, catatonic, Gin and hardener, mixelized, stirred-
> not-shaken, integrated, The list goes on)

MIXED!
>
> It's impossible to tell whether a puddle of resin has been
improperly
> mixed-with-hardener or not mixed at all after it's been sitting for
a
> day and is still wet.

I disagree. It's impossible NOT to tell. If it's still sitting there
unset a day later, it wasn't mixed right! The time to discover this is
when you can do something about it. I think in almost all cases,
defective epoxy turns out to be epoxy that wasn't mixed right. The
only epoxy I ever encountered that didn't set right when mixed
reasonably well was very old model airplane epoxy that had been
sitting in small, opened containers for ages.

> If there were dyes one could tell.
>
> I agree that it would take some strong color to tell.

Actually, if the resin and hardener are two markedly different colors,
you're all set. It doesn't have to be a strong color, you just have to
be able to distinguish between resin, hardener, and a mix of resin and
hardener IN THE MIXING POT. SOme epoxies are already like this as one
component is clear and the other is amber. The color doesn't show in
thin layers. Of course you're not going to be able to measure the
ratio or tell for absolutely sure how well the stuff is mixed.
>
As in all boatbuilding, it's possible to defeat these measures. I
recommend that anyone who wants to build a boat should see if they
pass the following test:

1. Get a flashlight, an observer, and a dark room.
2. Stand facing along the wall.
3. Turn the flashlight on and stick it in the ear away from the wall.
4. If there is a spot of light on the wall, that's a failure!

BTW, I have used two part urethane which seemed to fail even if
carefully measured and mixed. Would only work well with mixing
nozzles. You haven't lived until you've had to dissect and recast 2
foot long, 3 inch thick urethane strain reliefs. But that's urethane.

Good point. I assumed (!) he was talking about the inboard edge of the
counter, and you are very likely correct. After rereading his note, I
confess I'm not sure. Email in haste, repent at leisure....;-)

David

-----Original Message-----
From: pvanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:23 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy problem

> You splice laid rope with a fid.
> Bjorn's small plank is a fiddle (or
> sea rail, take your pick).

I wasn't sure whether he was describing a fiddle, or a cleat. By
cleat, I mean a short piece of natural lumber, perhaps 1"x2" (2.5cm x
5cm) attached to a bulkhead to support a horizontal panel, and out of
sight when the work is completed.

Peter

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> You splice laid rope with a fid.
> Bjorn's small plank is a fiddle (or
> sea rail, take your pick).

One hint is to measure your hardner and resin into different cups. Then
pour into another for mixing. Just scrap well to get all of the hardner and
resin out of the measuring cups. It would be hard to miss not adding one or
the other.

When mixing epoxy up, I add a few pinches of Phenolic Microballons which are
rust red in color. As you mix it goes from a swirl look to a consistant
color. If you scrap the sides of the cup, any unmixed epoxy entering the
mix will give a clear swirl pattern . When well mixed it gets a consistant
color.

It doesn't take very much and don't add enough to affect the epoxy
properties if you need straight epoxy for coating or gluing. When spread
out, you can't tell there is color at all. Besides, most of epoxy used in
boat building is on reddish woods or sanded and painted.

Don't do this on any light woods like white oak if you intend to varnish
finish.

This is especially useful when getting help from someone not experienced
with mixing epoxy. It gives them a nice visual clue.

Jeff

I'm not sure I understand your comments completely but I believe the
idea that proffered was to dye the resin and the hardener different
colors in order to determine whether the resin has been "catalysed"
or not (Don't know the proper term, catalated, catalaqued, cat-o-nine-
tailed, catamarand, catatonic, Gin and hardener, mixelized, stirred-
not-shaken, integrated, The list goes on)

It's impossible to tell whether a puddle of resin has been improperly
mixed-with-hardener or not mixed at all after it's been sitting for a
day and is still wet. If there were dyes one could tell.

I agree that it would take some strong color to tell.

--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
> You only need to detect the dye in the mix. Once the epoxy is on,
we
> already have a good way to detect that something is wrong!
>
> In cases where the epoxy is painted over, color won't matter. In
other
> cases, the dye may not be visible in thin layers anyway (maybe).
>
> BTW, epoxy isn't "catalysed" is it? At that point wouldn't you just
> need a tiny amount of hardener, as with polyester?
> --- In bolger@y..., "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
> > >I wonder if there is some kind of dye that we could put in
> different
> > parts of our epoxy<
> >
> >
> > Very interesting concept.
> >
> > Challenges,
> >
> > the dye would have to be initially very strong to be able to
detect
> > it in small amounts like Bjorn is having to cope with.
> >
> > The dye would have to be susceptible to some sort of bleaching
agent
> > that would completely eliminate the color. Vegetable dye will
bleach
> > easily however UV is the bleaching agent so I don't think that
would
> > be acceptable. Perhaps the different dyes, hardener and resin,
could
> > act on the other so when mixed they would kill the color of the
> > other, like some disappearing inks.
> >
> > Of course the dye would have to be inert and have no affect on
the
> > catalyzed resin whatsoever or as little as possible.
> >
> > Hmmmmm. Anyone know any dye chemists????
> >
> > snip

You only need to detect the dye in the mix. Once the epoxy is on, we
already have a good way to detect that something is wrong!

In cases where the epoxy is painted over, color won't matter. In other
cases, the dye may not be visible in thin layers anyway (maybe).

BTW, epoxy isn't "catalysed" is it? At that point wouldn't you just
need a tiny amount of hardener, as with polyester?

--- In bolger@y..., "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
> >I wonder if there is some kind of dye that we could put in
different
> parts of our epoxy<
>
>
> Very interesting concept.
>
> Challenges,
>
> the dye would have to be initially very strong to be able to detect
> it in small amounts like Bjorn is having to cope with.
>
> The dye would have to be susceptible to some sort of bleaching agent
> that would completely eliminate the color. Vegetable dye will bleach
> easily however UV is the bleaching agent so I don't think that would
> be acceptable. Perhaps the different dyes, hardener and resin, could
> act on the other so when mixed they would kill the color of the
> other, like some disappearing inks.
>
> Of course the dye would have to be inert and have no affect on the
> catalyzed resin whatsoever or as little as possible.
>
> Hmmmmm. Anyone know any dye chemists????
>
> snip

>I wonder if there is some kind of dye that we could put in different

parts of our epoxy<

Very interesting concept.

Challenges,

the dye would have to be initially very strong to be able to detect
it in small amounts like Bjorn is having to cope with.

The dye would have to be susceptible to some sort of bleaching agent
that would completely eliminate the color. Vegetable dye will bleach
easily however UV is the bleaching agent so I don't think that would
be acceptable. Perhaps the different dyes, hardener and resin, could
act on the other so when mixed they would kill the color of the
other, like some disappearing inks.

Of course the dye would have to be inert and have no affect on the
catalyzed resin whatsoever or as little as possible.

Hmmmmm. Anyone know any dye chemists????

--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
> If it doesn't interfere with the adhesion of the next layer,
vinegar
> is probably the best way to clean out the epoxy. Best thing I've
seen
> for cleaning up epoxy so far. Smell isn't too bad or unhealthy,
> either. I'd use it with an old toothbrush
> (maybe mark it up so you don't try to use it on your teeth
> afterwards). Probably it would be worth it to make up a test piece
out
> of some scrap wood and subject it to the same mistakes, clean up
> process, and recoat procedure you were going to use in the boat. If
it
> doesn't work, you can throw it away and try another procedure on
> another test piece.
>
> I wonder if there is some kind of dye that we could put in
different
> parts of our epoxy so we would know at a glance if we were looking
at
> components or a mix. If the hardener was red and the resin blue,
seems
> like that would reduce confusion. THe dye might not even show after
> the epoxy was applied.
> --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> > Voids in the counter? On the surface, from your fairing?
> >
> > Solvent and rag?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> snipThe main problems are the voids in the
> > counter that will not be easy to clean out.

If it doesn't interfere with the adhesion of the next layer, vinegar
is probably the best way to clean out the epoxy. Best thing I've seen
for cleaning up epoxy so far. Smell isn't too bad or unhealthy,
either. I'd use it with an old toothbrush
(maybe mark it up so you don't try to use it on your teeth
afterwards). Probably it would be worth it to make up a test piece out
of some scrap wood and subject it to the same mistakes, clean up
process, and recoat procedure you were going to use in the boat. If it
doesn't work, you can throw it away and try another procedure on
another test piece.

I wonder if there is some kind of dye that we could put in different
parts of our epoxy so we would know at a glance if we were looking at
components or a mix. If the hardener was red and the resin blue, seems
like that would reduce confusion. THe dye might not even show after
the epoxy was applied.

--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> Voids in the counter? On the surface, from your fairing?
>
> Solvent and rag?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
snipThe main problems are the voids in the
> counter that will not be easy to clean out.

You splice laid rope with a fid. Bjorn's small plank is a fiddle (or
sea rail, take your pick). I'd do the laminate, but I'd still dig out
the soft epoxy. Nuthin's easy around boats....

David Romasco

-----Original Message-----
From: recree8 [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:47 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy problem

Bjorn,

Seems to me they are called fids? Anyway, why not use contact cement
and laminate a piece of countertop, like melamine - over the wood
that has voids then install the fids as edging? This can look great
and is very practical!

Nels,

--- In bolger@y..., "bjharbo" <bharbo@o...> wrote:
> Thanks Peter,
> My other fillets are all right. The single fillet in question is
abt
> 10 inches long and between the counter and the small plank that
> inhibits items from falling down (don't remember the english term
> (not the norwegian either, for that matter...)) - no big deal. And
> like I said: easy to remove. The main problems are the voids in the
> counter that will not be easy to clean out. I will do my best and
use
> knife/tooth picks and what have I to avoid the complete desaster...
> And probably post a picture.
> And now: back to work
> Bjørn

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bjorn,

Seems to me they are called fids? Anyway, why not use contact cement
and laminate a piece of countertop, like melamine - over the wood
that has voids then install the fids as edging? This can look great
and is very practical!

Nels,

--- In bolger@y..., "bjharbo" <bharbo@o...> wrote:
> Thanks Peter,
> My other fillets are all right. The single fillet in question is
abt
> 10 inches long and between the counter and the small plank that
> inhibits items from falling down (don't remember the english term
> (not the norwegian either, for that matter...)) - no big deal. And
> like I said: easy to remove. The main problems are the voids in the
> counter that will not be easy to clean out. I will do my best and
use
> knife/tooth picks and what have I to avoid the complete desaster...
> And probably post a picture.
> And now: back to work
> Bjørn

Voids in the counter? On the surface, from your fairing?

Solvent and rag?

----- Original Message -----
From: "bjharbo" <bharbo@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 6:56 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy problem

Thanks Peter,
My other fillets are all right. The single fillet in question is abt
10 inches long and between the counter and the small plank that
inhibits items from falling down (don't remember the english term
(not the norwegian either, for that matter...)) - no big deal. And
like I said: easy to remove. The main problems are the voids in the
counter that will not be easy to clean out. I will do my best and use
knife/tooth picks and what have I to avoid the complete desaster...
And probably post a picture.
And now: back to work
Bjørn

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

See if you can get your hands on some dental picks and scrapers - hardware
stores here in the states often sell cheap third-world knockoffs for use on
things other than teeth. Very handy for digging into little crevices and
such like you describe - 'A thousand and one uses in home and shop'......
My brother sells dental torture devices so I always have a steady supply,
but I have seen them for sale in many unexpected places.

Paul L.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: bjharbo [mailto:bharbo@...]
> I will do my best and use
> knife/tooth picks and what have I to avoid the complete desaster...

Thanks Peter,
My other fillets are all right. The single fillet in question is abt
10 inches long and between the counter and the small plank that
inhibits items from falling down (don't remember the english term
(not the norwegian either, for that matter...)) - no big deal. And
like I said: easy to remove. The main problems are the voids in the
counter that will not be easy to clean out. I will do my best and use
knife/tooth picks and what have I to avoid the complete desaster...
And probably post a picture.
And now: back to work
Bjørn

Bjorn,
If the epoxy will indeed "not be a problem to remove" then by all
means do so.It is unlikely that it will ever harden up with new stuff
added over it considering the chemical reaction needed to cure it
(unlike polyester resin/catalyst.
Besides,the un-cured stuff you leave in place will not take
finishes(paint)very well nor will it add to the overall integrity of
the structure.Do you really want to find yourself out on some rather
cold and lonely waters wondering about every little joint/fillet that
may not be right? The extra work done now is nothing compared to
having your boats joints loosen up later on the water and yes,it is
NOT good to have uncured epoxy around food..........
Peter Lenihan,hoping your
other epoxy batches were all right!

--- In bolger@y..., "bjharbo" <bharbo@o...> wrote:
> Dear Fellow Bolger Boat Builders/Owners/Sailors!
> My WDJ is nearing completion - honest!! However, I discovered
> yesterday that a fillet I made on Sunday (at very hot weather) had
> not cured. I probably didn't add hardener. Removing the fillet will
> not be a problem. Unfortunately I also used the same batch to
> fair/fill some voids in the galley counter (which is built up from
> scratch). How importent will it be to remove all the soft stuff?
Will
> the hardner in the mix I will add and apply on top sufficiently
cover
> and eventually harden the soft stuff underneath? I use WEST with
> Standard Hardener (don't remember the number)
> Bjørn in Oslo
> soon to be a WDJ sailor

I would suggest that you go ahead and remove the soft stuff. You
don't want uncured epoxy around food preperation areas.

--- In bolger@y..., "bjharbo" <bharbo@o...> wrote:
> Dear Fellow Bolger Boat Builders/Owners/Sailors!
> My WDJ is nearing completion - honest!! However, I discovered
> yesterday that a fillet I made on Sunday (at very hot weather) had
> not cured. I probably didn't add hardener. Removing the fillet
will
> not be a problem. Unfortunately I also used the same batch to
> fair/fill some voids in the galley counter (which is built up from
> scratch). How importent will it be to remove all the soft stuff?
Will
> the hardner in the mix I will add and apply on top sufficiently
cover
> and eventually harden the soft stuff underneath? I use WEST with
> Standard Hardener (don't remember the number)
> Bjørn in Oslo
> soon to be a WDJ sailor

Dear Fellow Bolger Boat Builders/Owners/Sailors!
My WDJ is nearing completion - honest!! However, I discovered
yesterday that a fillet I made on Sunday (at very hot weather) had
not cured. I probably didn't add hardener. Removing the fillet will
not be a problem. Unfortunately I also used the same batch to
fair/fill some voids in the galley counter (which is built up from
scratch). How importent will it be to remove all the soft stuff? Will
the hardner in the mix I will add and apply on top sufficiently cover
and eventually harden the soft stuff underneath? I use WEST with
Standard Hardener (don't remember the number)
Bjørn in Oslo
soon to be a WDJ sailor