Re: [bolger] Re: Fast Motorsailor
David,
I actually got 21" but at the small scale didn't want to take it for gospel.
On Jul 19, 2013 3:51 PM, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:I too measured about 2' for the transom cut which is why I asked the question. Short shafts are usually 15" and long shafts 20". Ultra long would be 25". I've never seen a 35HP UL so guessed I was reading wrong.
Outboard literature says you should be aiming for transom height + 1" when selecting the outboard.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> You could do worse,
>
> I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who
> haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
> "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a
> combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space,
> lightness and compactness, and low cost."
>
> The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the
> bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
> Mark
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:
>
> > Mark
> >
> > Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model
> > tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get
> > high resolution pictures...
> >
> > I can understand that few have been built and that resale value
> > would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
> >
> > - will perform astonishingly well
> > - can be built at low cost
> > - can be built in short stints
> > - will bother most conventional boating people
> >
> > I fear I am hooked...
> >
> > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or
> > short shaft motor.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
>
Outboard literature says you should be aiming for transom height + 1" when selecting the outboard.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
>
> You could do worse,
>
> I'm certain Phil took great pleasure in this design. For those who
> haven't a copy of BWAOM, here's how he concludes.
> "It's my belief that there never has before existed such a
> combination of sailing performance, power performance, usable space,
> lightness and compactness, and low cost."
>
> The top of the motor board looks to be just under two feet above the
> bottom. Doesn't that imply a long shaft?
> Mark
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, David wrote:
>
> > Mark
> >
> > Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model
> > tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get
> > high resolution pictures...
> >
> > I can understand that few have been built and that resale value
> > would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
> >
> > - will perform astonishingly well
> > - can be built at low cost
> > - can be built in short stints
> > - will bother most conventional boating people
> >
> > I fear I am hooked...
> >
> > BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or
> > short shaft motor.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
>
Bolger did a number of motorsailers using similar design philosophy ranging from the FMS discussed here, the 30' Alaskan motor-sailer, up the the 100' Sir Joseph Banks, a steel inter-island freighter. The Alaskan was also a small freighter. (I don't have the Alaskan name quite right) I likely haven't seen them all.
Based on reading the various essays, I think he took particular pride in these designs.
Don
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
> BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.
>
Mark
Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...
I can understand that few have been built and that resale value would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
- will perform astonishingly well
- can be built at low cost
- can be built in short stints
- will bother most conventional boating people
I fear I am hooked...
BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.
Best regards,
David
Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much. The model tempts me more and more. It's almost worth building just to get high resolution pictures...
I can understand that few have been built and that resale value would be low. However, as with Oldshoe, I am attracted by the fact it:
- will perform astonishingly well
- can be built at low cost
- can be built in short stints
- will bother most conventional boating people
I fear I am hooked...
BTW: Can anyone please confirm whether the design uses a long or short shaft motor.
Best regards,
David
There are/were some pics of an FMS under sail, but I don't have the links anymore. They weren't really very good quality.
I seem to remember them being mixed in with some other Bolger boat pics and not ID'd as FMS.
I know also the design was tweaked with a 2nd rudder on the other side. You might check out Bruce Hallman's Freeship renderings.
IMO it is a pretty amazing design.
Don
You seem to be referring to the FMS on the squareboats pagehttp://www.ace.net.au/schooner/fms.htmI somehow don't think the original 70HP let alone the later 140HP would have amused PCB much.
15 kts is incredibly fast for a 23' sailboat and I would happily settle for that (or less). I assume you'd get hull speed (or perhaps more under some conditions) with 10HP or so. Any idea how to guess speeds with given HP for this type of hull appreciated.
One would be lucky to get Seabird 86 up above 7kts under any conditions and accommodations, trailering and construction cost (with ballast) are in a different league.
With the distances involved where I sail (central Chile) and the prevailing conditions (a lot of wind from a pretty constant direction or none at all) the abilities of the FMS seem great to me.
If it comes to exploring the archipelagoes and tidal areas in the South of Chile, the ability to dry out flat and motor the narrow/shallow channels is a great plus.
My problem with Bolger is that I like too much of his work. Seems like I'll be buying another set of plans.
David
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> > Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a
> > better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should
> > be fine under sail. A chart I looked at suggested
> > that guessing a weight if 2500lb ,
> > a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots.
>
> If you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able to use the rig downwind for the fun of it, or to save fuel. I'm sure it will sail upwind, but it doesn't have the rig or the power to carry sail to be fast hard on the wind.
>
> I think the 15KT on 30hp estimate is pretty good. If I remember correctly, one guy who built the boat but not the rig was dissatisfied with the performance with mid-teen speeds under power with 30HP and traded up to 70 HP. That got him to the 25KT range.
>
> PCB was a very good powerboat designer and he described the trade-offs of high and low power in several places. He liked low-powered boats for their quiet and economy, but he noted that once you want more than sailboat speed, you get a hull better suited for high-speed than low.
>
- be built from pretty simple plywood panels (trust Bolger for that)
- exceed normal speeds for aything that size and power under both power and sail (assume Bolger is right on that)
- sail safely in an unballasted format (hope Bolger is right for that)
- be trailered with a normal (big) vehicle
+ the fact it is dipping lug rigged and of unconventional hull form
makes it most attractive to an unconventional bolgerite like myself.
My reckoning is 35 sheets of 1/2" (12mm) plywood as follows:
- 4 for the keel bottom and cutwater sides (doubled)
- 12 for the bilge panels (doubled)
- 6 for the sides
- 6 for the decks and other horizontal surfaces
- 4 for the bulkheads and transom
- 3 misc. interior joinery not easily obtainable from offcuts
Realistically, this means a plywood weight of around 550kg (1200 lbs) using pine ply and allowing for 20% waste (a lot by PCB's standards)
Framing, mast, epoxy/glass and such will add 150kg and the motor a further 80-100kg (say 250 kg for everything including motor and paint) brings me to 800kg or 1.750 lbs dry weight.
I'm happy to be wrong again, but I don't see how I can be that far from PCB's design waterline of 1846 lbs which I presume allows for a crew of 2, fuel and some provisions.
Thoughts welcome. Any pictures or links most welcome.
Best regards,
David
> Looking at the line drawings does show it will be aIf you think about what a fast monohull sailboat looks like (heavy keel, tall mast), you see that the FMS is something different. It was meant to be able to use the rig downwind for the fun of it, or to save fuel. I'm sure it will sail upwind, but it doesn't have the rig or the power to carry sail to be fast hard on the wind.
> better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should
> be fine under sail. A chart I looked at suggested
> that guessing a weight if 2500lb ,
> a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots.
I think the 15KT on 30hp estimate is pretty good. If I remember correctly, one guy who built the boat but not the rig was dissatisfied with the performance with mid-teen speeds under power with 30HP and traded up to 70 HP. That got him to the 25KT range.
PCB was a very good powerboat designer and he described the trade-offs of high and low power in several places. He liked low-powered boats for their quiet and economy, but he noted that once you want more than sailboat speed, you get a hull better suited for high-speed than low.
I seem to remember them being mixed in with some other Bolger boat pics and not ID'd as FMS.
I know also the design was tweaked with a 2nd rudder on the other side. You might check out Bruce Hallman's Freeship renderings.
IMO it is a pretty amazing design.
Don
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 7:58 AM, sirdarnell<sirdarnell@...>wrote:Instead of thinking of a motorsailor as an either/or, think of it as a hybrid. Always traveling at say 12 knots no matter what wind speed is, using more or less motor as needed, and only going faster if you can on sail alone. The sail in this case lowers fuel costs.
> Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a better motor boat than a sailboat.Agreed! The word "better" always implies the presumption "in what way".Sometimes it is better to be versatile, trying to hit a sweet spot in the middle. Other times it is better to be the best at either extreme, (fast sailing or fast motoring). And other times, you simply want comfort and don't care about going fast. And even other times, lolling around sailing circles in a light weight sailing dingy is best, or exploring in a kayak, etc..
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "CharlesR" <Leighpilot@...> wrote:
>
> Looking at the line drawings does show it will be a better motor boat than a sailboat. Off wind it should be find under sail. A chart I looked at suggested that guessing a weight if 2500lb , a 35 hp motor should get it up at about 15 knots. How fast do you want to go. Motor sailers are compromises at best I'd suggest with a good sail boat or a good power boat. Bolger has designed both. Why pick a type of boat that is inherently a poor performer.?
>
> Leigh
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:
> >
> > a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)
> >
> > b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)
> >
> > c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.
> >
> > I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.
> >
> > Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > David
> >
>
Bolger wouldn't have put a sail on it if it didn't work.....broad reaching speedster I bet!
Motor Sailor can have many connotations
sail w/motor running
motor to windward
motor cause I'm too lazy to put the sails up this morning
I got a Yamaha 4 cycle 15 LS......5-6 knots economy cruiser ..... might even plane
I had an old Seabird Yawl, Marconi, over 400 ft of sail 25-6 on deck 33 ft OA when the rig fell down.... I put a lug(cut out of the main) on a short mast in the main tabernackle
i was amazed how well she sailed
cheers
On 07/15/2013 12:15 PM, David wrote:
Hi all
I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:
a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)
b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)
c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.
I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.
Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.
Best regards,
David
Leigh
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <dir_cobb@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:
>
> a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)
>
> b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)
>
> c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.
>
> I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.
>
> Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> David
>
I have been taking a more serious look at the Fast Motorsailor (BWAOM) and was wondering:
a) Did Bill McKibben actually build her (the photo in the book is the first one ADA)
b) Does anyone have pictures of a completed one (with sailing rig) - the only pictures I've found are of a motor only version with 70+ HP and an owner wanting to plane. (Not what Bolger had in mind)
c) With all the above, does anyone have exerience sailing the thing. How well does she actually sail? The lines aft seem definitely biased towards motoring rather than sailing, but then, Bolger achieved many unconventional things.
I am seriously tempted to experiment with the dipping lug and either Seabird or the FMS seem good platforms. I already have full plans for Seabird but am attracted by the performance under power and easier trailer ability of the FMS.
Appreciate comments/thoughts/links.
Best regards,
David
Everyone see the WoodenBoat Launchings picture of the Fast
Motorsailor built in Germany? This is the only one of three that I
know have been built that has actually put on the dipping lug sailing
rig.
I really like this boat and actually started to build one.
Unfortunately moving to Norway got in the way and I had to abandon
the project.
I would really like to hear how the boat performs under sail. From
what I have heard it requires at least 75 hp to perform well under
power.
Daniel Pike,
Tromso, Norway