Re: Taxachusetts
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
You might want to ask the Lake Patrol specifically which state code
requires this, ask for the specific paragraph and code number. Many
times state agencies will take it on themselves to "make up" rules as
they go along. The state may have an excise tax for boat makers and
want more money from you than just the registration fee. Quite
often, I have found, if you make a regulatory bureaucrat back up what
he states, they will back off if it is not spelled out in the state
code. Specifically, the code should fall under "323 CMR" or "230
CMR".
For example, in my state, if you sell more than 6 cars in a calander
year the DMV wants to make you get a dealer license. If you have
titled the boats in you name, and they have remained yours, you
likely are not a manufacturor. Also as a manufactuor, there are
differant rules pertaining to how the boat is built per the Coast
Guard. And as a manufactuor, you open youself up to lawsuits in the
future if you do sell the boat and someone gets injured and claims
that you used inferior manufacturing materials and/or tecniques.
> Still annoying.said: "We will
>
> After my second boat was inspected by the Lake Patrol, they
> issue one more, then you need to register with the Coast Gaurd as asnip
> manufacturer".
>
You might want to ask the Lake Patrol specifically which state code
requires this, ask for the specific paragraph and code number. Many
times state agencies will take it on themselves to "make up" rules as
they go along. The state may have an excise tax for boat makers and
want more money from you than just the registration fee. Quite
often, I have found, if you make a regulatory bureaucrat back up what
he states, they will back off if it is not spelled out in the state
code. Specifically, the code should fall under "323 CMR" or "230
CMR".
For example, in my state, if you sell more than 6 cars in a calander
year the DMV wants to make you get a dealer license. If you have
titled the boats in you name, and they have remained yours, you
likely are not a manufacturor. Also as a manufactuor, there are
differant rules pertaining to how the boat is built per the Coast
Guard. And as a manufactuor, you open youself up to lawsuits in the
future if you do sell the boat and someone gets injured and claims
that you used inferior manufacturing materials and/or tecniques.
Comments below Snip...
SNIP
SNIP
--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
> I'm afraid I'm with Bolger on this. The guy below seems to have no
> clue that maybe the rules are a little bogus. I am all for
appropriate
> regulation, but these days the regulations seem to proliferate with
no
> attention to whether they do much good or how much they cost (and
they
> always cost).
Anyone know how much the Coasties check when they stop people at
> random? (I would be polite, and only seethe internally.)
SNIP
Another prime example of the Coastguard's (BTW, I spent 4 years in
Alaska with them and never checked a HIN)meddling with affairs they
shouldn't was when they decided to start charging $65.00 for a VHF
license per year which of course was more than a lot of small boaters
could afford... Thereby forcing hoest law abiding citizens to leave
an ESSENTIAL piece of safety equipment on the beach or risk a very
hefty fine.
In truth Taxachusetts doesn't sound so bad. in California our
illustrious governor Grey Dufus passed a mandate a couple of months
ago to raise all DMV(Dept. Motor Vehicles) fees by 150% next year and
to put the "revenue" into the states general fund. Boats will go from
$5.00 to $15.00 a year, and my 1984 Mazda sedan will go from $63.00
to a whopping $157.50!!!!
Scott Calman
--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
to hide behind, and the larger ones are a real issue. But there are
many things that are equaly dangerous, or expensive that are
completely unregulated. Archery equipment comes to mind, or home
made furniture, in certain areas there are no building codes. I
wonder what the buraucracy is if you make your own climbing rope
(assuming you don't use hemp). There are probably more places that
slap a number on your canoe, than your bicycle.
Up here where the prime minister is remarkably friendly with
Bombardie corp., some folks have rammed their PWC into canoes killing
paddlers. Good news! The paddlers now have to take an exam. Well
that is certainly a step in the right direction.
> I'm afraid I'm with Bolger on this. The guy below seems to have noappropriate
> clue that maybe the rules are a little bogus. I am all for
> regulation, but these days the regulations seem to proliferate withno
> attention to whether they do much good or how much they cost (andthey
> always cost).And there is the whole visibility thing. Boats are visible, no trees
to hide behind, and the larger ones are a real issue. But there are
many things that are equaly dangerous, or expensive that are
completely unregulated. Archery equipment comes to mind, or home
made furniture, in certain areas there are no building codes. I
wonder what the buraucracy is if you make your own climbing rope
(assuming you don't use hemp). There are probably more places that
slap a number on your canoe, than your bicycle.
Up here where the prime minister is remarkably friendly with
Bombardie corp., some folks have rammed their PWC into canoes killing
paddlers. Good news! The paddlers now have to take an exam. Well
that is certainly a step in the right direction.
I registered a homemade boat last year in Washington and got my HIN at the DMV at the same time I registered it. No one ever asked to see the boat. I guess here they don't care if you want to register a stolen boat as long as you don't mind paying the 8% sales tax on the value of the boat, minus whatever receipts you can produce to show you paid tax on materials that went into it. Since I just brought the boat in from Oregon, where there is no sales tax, they taxed the total value of the boat. They call it an excise tax, but it is still about 8%. Fortunately, they take your word for the value of the boat.
If the value of your boat is less than the value of the materials that you put into it, shouldn't they give you a refund? ;-)
Gary Lepak
Port Angeles, WA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If the value of your boat is less than the value of the materials that you put into it, shouldn't they give you a refund? ;-)
Gary Lepak
Port Angeles, WA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm afraid I'm with Bolger on this. The guy below seems to have no
clue that maybe the rules are a little bogus. I am all for appropriate
regulation, but these days the regulations seem to proliferate with no
attention to whether they do much good or how much they cost (and they
always cost). We are living under the dictatorship of insurance
companies (and why we bother I don't know since they often wriggle out
of their responsibility), petty regulation, and 20 second sound bites
supplied by someone's deep wallet. Hence this petty stuff. Meanwhile
anyone doing real damage can pay for a lobbyist.
Anyone know how much the Coasties check when they stop people at
random? (I would be polite, and only seethe internally.) I really
don't want to involve my rowboats in official processes, especially
since I picked up the projects halfway thru and haven't made a fetish
of documenting my building efforts. And what do they do to a homemade
boat with no HIN that's on it's second owner? (I'm already avoiding
motors, partly due to bureacracy.) I should think the Coasties would
have a lot of homemade kayaks on their hands if they really enforced
this stuff. Aren't they supposed to be out chasing drug smugglers and
illicit box cutter importers? Besides, when it comes to safety, I bet
alcohol kills 1000 times as many people as homemade boats!
clue that maybe the rules are a little bogus. I am all for appropriate
regulation, but these days the regulations seem to proliferate with no
attention to whether they do much good or how much they cost (and they
always cost). We are living under the dictatorship of insurance
companies (and why we bother I don't know since they often wriggle out
of their responsibility), petty regulation, and 20 second sound bites
supplied by someone's deep wallet. Hence this petty stuff. Meanwhile
anyone doing real damage can pay for a lobbyist.
Anyone know how much the Coasties check when they stop people at
random? (I would be polite, and only seethe internally.) I really
don't want to involve my rowboats in official processes, especially
since I picked up the projects halfway thru and haven't made a fetish
of documenting my building efforts. And what do they do to a homemade
boat with no HIN that's on it's second owner? (I'm already avoiding
motors, partly due to bureacracy.) I should think the Coasties would
have a lot of homemade kayaks on their hands if they really enforced
this stuff. Aren't they supposed to be out chasing drug smugglers and
illicit box cutter importers? Besides, when it comes to safety, I bet
alcohol kills 1000 times as many people as homemade boats!
--- In bolger@y..., "ymaapub" <tcomrie@y...> wrote:
> I forwarded the original post to a friend who is in the
administration at the Massachusetts Environmental Police:
>
> "As to our boatmaking friend.........USCG requires a HIN for all
registered
> boats, we must comply. It has always be necessary to have a
homemade boat
> inspected. People lie as to their origin, it's not a bad idea for
someone to
> see the boat so as to determine if the boat is safe, and, a lot of
people
> claim the boat to homemade to beat the sales tax. Quite frankly, if
the
> person is so damn smart, they might realize that they are dealing
with a
> poor 27K a year teller, who is doing the best she can, and to make
it easier
> on both of them by working with her and not against. If a boat is
not
> trailerable, an EPO will inspect on site, as they did with you. The
people
> that work at the windows are underpaid, hardworking, and dedicated
to giving
> everyone the best service they can. Usually, the person who
recieves the
> lowest level of service is the smug, know it all type who can't deal
with a
> situation if it doesn't happen the way they pictured in their
mind......I
> can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to people
complaining
> because they either didn't agree with the rules or somehow think
that they
> are exempt from them. "
I can assure you that I am not being smug, just surprised. My
response from the Worcester office DRMV was from a telephone call
that informed me not to show up there before the stop at EP. Good
advise. Just disappointing.
People complain about rules when the logic behind them is not
apparent. Therefore, it is a good idea to let those who are
responsible for informing people of the rules know the reasons for
their implementation. That way they can educate the users as to the
reasons for the law. I certainly realize that I am not exempt from
the rules. I just wanted to know the logic behind them. I have
every intention of following the law to the letter. Who knows,
someone may want to purchase Micro and I had better have my title and
registration available to facilitate this matter.
A small price to pay.
David Jost
Usually, the person who recieves the
response from the Worcester office DRMV was from a telephone call
that informed me not to show up there before the stop at EP. Good
advise. Just disappointing.
People complain about rules when the logic behind them is not
apparent. Therefore, it is a good idea to let those who are
responsible for informing people of the rules know the reasons for
their implementation. That way they can educate the users as to the
reasons for the law. I certainly realize that I am not exempt from
the rules. I just wanted to know the logic behind them. I have
every intention of following the law to the letter. Who knows,
someone may want to purchase Micro and I had better have my title and
registration available to facilitate this matter.
A small price to pay.
David Jost
Usually, the person who recieves the
> lowest level of service is the smug, know it all type who can'tdeal with a
> situation if it doesn't happen the way they pictured in theirmind......I
> can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to peoplecomplaining
> because they either didn't agree with the rules or somehow thinkthat they
> are exempt from them. "
I guess I needed to see the reason for the environmental police
looking at the boat. I checked out their web site, and they are in
charge of marine thefts, and therefore check out Hull Identification
numbers. Now this makes a little sense. I just wish the secretary
on the phone had some of that information when I called. I sure
don't want my boat stolen, and plan to make a plate to be permanently
affixed to the hull (epoxy) . Since I plan to paint her this week, I
would rather the inspection happen prior to the paint being applied.
Floatation 800lbs, goes in tomorrow.
David jost
"I wonder if Noah had an HIN"
looking at the boat. I checked out their web site, and they are in
charge of marine thefts, and therefore check out Hull Identification
numbers. Now this makes a little sense. I just wish the secretary
on the phone had some of that information when I called. I sure
don't want my boat stolen, and plan to make a plate to be permanently
affixed to the hull (epoxy) . Since I plan to paint her this week, I
would rather the inspection happen prior to the paint being applied.
Floatation 800lbs, goes in tomorrow.
David jost
"I wonder if Noah had an HIN"
ok, the tellers should be paid more...The point was, that I used to
get the HIN at the Division of Marine and Recreational Vehicles. The
equivalent of one stop shopping. Now it is two stops with the boat
in tow to at least one of them.
The response that said they were checking to be sure it was not a
stolen boat, seems to make the most sense. I am sure that this boat
would be easily identifiable to anyone making a positive id.
Happy boating,
David Jost
get the HIN at the Division of Marine and Recreational Vehicles. The
equivalent of one stop shopping. Now it is two stops with the boat
in tow to at least one of them.
The response that said they were checking to be sure it was not a
stolen boat, seems to make the most sense. I am sure that this boat
would be easily identifiable to anyone making a positive id.
Happy boating,
David Jost
In a message dated 22-06-02 12:04:49 AM E. Australia Standard Time,
richard@...writes:
process required for the design of the steel hull, he says "the Australians
have let themselves in for a bureaucracy of unusual size and interfering
habits". Comparing your difficulties with the relative ease with which I
registered my home-built ply boat, things in the USA have gotten a lot worse
since that was written.
Howard.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
richard@...writes:
> Still annoying.In Bolger's "Different Boats" essay on Nimbus, referring to the approval
>
> After my second boat was inspected by the Lake Patrol, they said: "We will
> issue one more, then you need to register with the Coast Gaurd as a
> manufacturer".
>
> So, trying to be the good citizen, I registered with the CG. I used the
> example form they included with the packet, and issued my own hull number.
>
> Two weeks ago I applied for the registration, after a long conversation
> with
> the tag agent (who wanted to register it as a homemade boat)...
>
process required for the design of the steel hull, he says "the Australians
have let themselves in for a bureaucracy of unusual size and interfering
habits". Comparing your difficulties with the relative ease with which I
registered my home-built ply boat, things in the USA have gotten a lot worse
since that was written.
Howard.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I forwarded the original post to a friend who is in the administration at the Massachusetts Environmental Police:
"As to our boatmaking friend.........USCG requires a HIN for all registered
boats, we must comply. It has always be necessary to have a homemade boat
inspected. People lie as to their origin, it's not a bad idea for someone to
see the boat so as to determine if the boat is safe, and, a lot of people
claim the boat to homemade to beat the sales tax. Quite frankly, if the
person is so damn smart, they might realize that they are dealing with a
poor 27K a year teller, who is doing the best she can, and to make it easier
on both of them by working with her and not against. If a boat is not
trailerable, an EPO will inspect on site, as they did with you. The people
that work at the windows are underpaid, hardworking, and dedicated to giving
everyone the best service they can. Usually, the person who recieves the
lowest level of service is the smug, know it all type who can't deal with a
situation if it doesn't happen the way they pictured in their mind......I
can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to people complaining
because they either didn't agree with the rules or somehow think that they
are exempt from them. "
"As to our boatmaking friend.........USCG requires a HIN for all registered
boats, we must comply. It has always be necessary to have a homemade boat
inspected. People lie as to their origin, it's not a bad idea for someone to
see the boat so as to determine if the boat is safe, and, a lot of people
claim the boat to homemade to beat the sales tax. Quite frankly, if the
person is so damn smart, they might realize that they are dealing with a
poor 27K a year teller, who is doing the best she can, and to make it easier
on both of them by working with her and not against. If a boat is not
trailerable, an EPO will inspect on site, as they did with you. The people
that work at the windows are underpaid, hardworking, and dedicated to giving
everyone the best service they can. Usually, the person who recieves the
lowest level of service is the smug, know it all type who can't deal with a
situation if it doesn't happen the way they pictured in their mind......I
can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to people complaining
because they either didn't agree with the rules or somehow think that they
are exempt from them. "
.
anything that will be trailered may end up costing you everything, if
an insurance company decides to DK you insurance after an accident.
>was sold
> Would have been simpler to take the numbers off of Entropy, which
> in a different state, and just stick them on the CLC. Still havethe renewal
> form...You sound like you are doing the right thing. Expediencies for
anything that will be trailered may end up costing you everything, if
an insurance company decides to DK you insurance after an accident.
>
Still annoying.
After my second boat was inspected by the Lake Patrol, they said: "We will
issue one more, then you need to register with the Coast Gaurd as a
manufacturer".
So, trying to be the good citizen, I registered with the CG. I used the
example form they included with the packet, and issued my own hull number.
Two weeks ago I applied for the registration, after a long conversation with
the tag agent (who wanted to register it as a homemade boat)...
They are still confused, I think. I'm still waiting to hear back from them.
Would have been simpler to take the numbers off of Entropy, which was sold
in a different state, and just stick them on the CLC. Still have the renewal
form...
After my second boat was inspected by the Lake Patrol, they said: "We will
issue one more, then you need to register with the Coast Gaurd as a
manufacturer".
So, trying to be the good citizen, I registered with the CG. I used the
example form they included with the packet, and issued my own hull number.
Two weeks ago I applied for the registration, after a long conversation with
the tag agent (who wanted to register it as a homemade boat)...
They are still confused, I think. I'm still waiting to hear back from them.
Would have been simpler to take the numbers off of Entropy, which was sold
in a different state, and just stick them on the CLC. Still have the renewal
form...
----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 8:01 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Taxachusetts
> > They responded, "To get your hull identification number."
> It usually turns out that the primary interest is to be sure the boat
> is not stolen. When inspection reveals a homemade boat, the hull
> number is issued.
>
> PHV
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> They responded, "To get your hull identification number."It usually turns out that the primary interest is to be sure the boat
is not stolen. When inspection reveals a homemade boat, the hull
number is issued.
PHV
Well here is another wrinkle in the boatbuilders realm. I went to
Worcester to register "Firefly" I was told by the Division of Marine
and Recreational vehicles that I needed to have my boat "inspected"
by the environmental police.
This struck me as funny, because the last two boats I built did not
need this. The wonderful secretary assured me that all homebuilt
boats have always needed to be inspected by the environmental
police. I assured her that this was not the case. She then informed
me that it has been forever "since I have been here!" was her
response. I then told her that she had been working there less than
15 years, because that is when I registered my pointy skiff. She
said, "she wouldn't know, she had been there for 10."
Well that all said, I need to bring Micro to the Division of
Environmental Police next Tuesday at 4:00pm. I asked them what would
happen if the boat was not trailerable.
They responded, "Gee, we don't know, that has never
happened."
I then asked the BIG question, "Why?"
They responded, "To get your hull identification number."
I then asked, "Why couldn't the DMRV do that."
"Because, we need to see it first."
"Wow" that is amazing I declared, "I need to bring the boat
to you, so that you can declare it a boat so that I can register it."
"Yes" was the response.
To make a long story short, if you see an unpainted Micro heading
down rt. 9 at rush hour next Tuesday. You will know that it just
another happy builder getting an HIN from the MEP so that I can the
register with the DMRV in wonderful Taxachusetts.
What a world.
David Jost
Worcester to register "Firefly" I was told by the Division of Marine
and Recreational vehicles that I needed to have my boat "inspected"
by the environmental police.
This struck me as funny, because the last two boats I built did not
need this. The wonderful secretary assured me that all homebuilt
boats have always needed to be inspected by the environmental
police. I assured her that this was not the case. She then informed
me that it has been forever "since I have been here!" was her
response. I then told her that she had been working there less than
15 years, because that is when I registered my pointy skiff. She
said, "she wouldn't know, she had been there for 10."
Well that all said, I need to bring Micro to the Division of
Environmental Police next Tuesday at 4:00pm. I asked them what would
happen if the boat was not trailerable.
They responded, "Gee, we don't know, that has never
happened."
I then asked the BIG question, "Why?"
They responded, "To get your hull identification number."
I then asked, "Why couldn't the DMRV do that."
"Because, we need to see it first."
"Wow" that is amazing I declared, "I need to bring the boat
to you, so that you can declare it a boat so that I can register it."
"Yes" was the response.
To make a long story short, if you see an unpainted Micro heading
down rt. 9 at rush hour next Tuesday. You will know that it just
another happy builder getting an HIN from the MEP so that I can the
register with the DMRV in wonderful Taxachusetts.
What a world.
David Jost