Re: Ferro-cement
> Well, the irrefutable evidence is that apart from a handful ofThe reasons that FC did not take off have absolutely nothing to do
> professionals, and in spite of the zealots, after 40 years of
> promotion the great majority of the public are not silly, and won't
> risk their hard earned cash on ferro-cement boats.
> DonB
with it being a bad building material, or did you even bother to read
my references?
The reason it did not take off can be simply summed up:
1) FRP is more profitable to do in Mass production. FC has a higher
labor cost, even though materials cost is lower and so is not as
attractive. Also, the marketing is difficult when you have #4 below
going on.
2) FC just doesn't 'feel' right to nautical types, and nautical types
are the ones whom run most publications
3) FC got a big black eye when scores of badly made boats were done up
by people in the late 60's through the 70s. Just tell enough stories
like the one you have there, and you get lots of head nodding going on.
4) FC uses cheap, non epoxy materials. Oops. there goes billions of $$
in revenue for the epoxy companies. Talk about Negative PR efforts.
Ouch. I've even read that some of the epoxy companies paid stooges to
build bad FC boats on purpose, as well as embarking on misinformation
campaigns.
There are a few other reasons.. surveying, insurance, etc. But
basically it is the above.
Now.. Multihulls HAVE taken off yes? And gosh.. how long did that
take? Oh.. only about 50 - 70 years of promotion by adherents (really
more like 100). And one america's cup.
My basic point is that FC is a fantastic material. If you can give me
scientific evidence that shows it to be basically unsound.. which I
know you cannot because it is NOT unsound.. then I will buy your
argument. I will completely agree that building it wrong will have bad
results. Yes. And that has happened in this field too often.
So, anyone who wants to get info, go to this link:
http://www.ferroboats.com/
It is not 'luck' that there are so many FC boats out there, not dying,
not sinking. And while its true that FC boats dont have great resale
value, it didnt cost as much to make in the first place.
I am definitely NOT a FC 'zealot'. I am just trying to keep things in
perspective.
--T
Demonstrably untrue, or have you been out on the public waterways or
roads lately? (Then there's TV (people PAY to watch it!), elections,
popular inventory in stores, etc...)
roads lately? (Then there's TV (people PAY to watch it!), elections,
popular inventory in stores, etc...)
--- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <oink@p...> wrote:
snip the great majority of the public are not silly, snip
Well, the irrefutable evidence is that apart from a handful of
professionals, and in spite of the zealots, after 40 years of
promotion the great majority of the public are not silly, and won't
risk their hard earned cash on ferro-cement boats.
DonB
professionals, and in spite of the zealots, after 40 years of
promotion the great majority of the public are not silly, and won't
risk their hard earned cash on ferro-cement boats.
DonB
--- In bolger@y..., "timothyennuinet" <timothy@e...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <oink@p...> wrote:
> > I don't remember Bolger showing a ferro design, and hope not to.
> > In 1970 I was invited to help complete a 60ft ferro yacht beside
the
> > Thames in London. <unfortunate story of silly supposed 'expert'
snipped>
>
> Hm. Well, I can tell you a similiar story about a fellow who built a
> boat badly out of plywood, and it sunk within 3 weeks of launch.
>
> FC can be an -amazingly- strong material to build a boat out of, but
> you need to follow the folks who have REALLY done it. Hartley is one
> of em (they have 1000s of WORKING FC boats out there, one of which
> held the world circumnavigation record, and now still holds it for
> boats in its size class). Samson is another, though they are not in
> the FC business anymore. (The Ferro-Cement Boat was written by
Samson.
> They built 100s of FC boats professionally, almost all of which are
> still sailing)
>
> FC is a fantastic material to work with. But if you do it wrong, you
> will suffer disaster.
>
> I'll admit right away that wood is more forgiving of mistakes than
FC.
> But they are still mistakes. ;)
>
> Anyhoo, if you really want to know about FC boats, go to this URL:
>
>http://www.ferroboats.com/
>
> --T
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
some sort) floatation is provided. Unless we are talking multihulls
here, a wooden boat will sink just as fast as a FRP boat, no?
Steel sinks pretty fast too, yet you dont hear people disparaging
steel boats that much. And you can easily make a steel boat unsinkable.
I'm not trying to be a defender of the faith, but I have done a
substantial amount of research into materials, and have found the
worries surrounding FC to be unfounded in any real substance. Most of
the horror stories are from folk who built the boats wrong. There are
over 11,000 boats built from the specifications given by Hartley
boats.. most of which are still afloat.
Sure, it seems counterintuitive that a 'concrete' boat could float, or
be safe at sea. However try to remember, FRP (Fiber Reinforced
Plastic) was partially developed from the idea given by SRP (Steel
Reinforced Plaster), other wise known as Ferro-cement.
Heck, the english even built a submarine out of FC. It worked nicely.
Please, check out Hartley's site (http://www.ferroboats.com)for a
primer on FC. And then get a good book on it. I did because I was very
interested in the technique. I still am, although because of our
evolving requirements we likely will not be able to use FC for our big
project.
FC is NOT a trivial material to design with, but it is an EASY
material to build with. It is also cheap comparatively, however you
have to use the right materials and the right cement in the right order.
I love wood too, I think plywood is a fantastic material to build
with, and pays in dividends later as well, since you can do post hull
construction modifications with ordinary carpentry tools.
And steel.. well it is its own beast, but owns the commercial market
because of its cost/weight/str ratios.
I guess.. well.. whatever works. :)
--T
> emm. When someone asks me what I build boats out of, I say: "Wood. WoodA ballasted boat, made of wood, FRP or FC, will sink unless foam (or
> floats, what else would you build a boat out of?"
>
> Regardless of how good FC or steel or fiberglass or whatnot is, I think
> there can be something said for having an unsinkable boat...
some sort) floatation is provided. Unless we are talking multihulls
here, a wooden boat will sink just as fast as a FRP boat, no?
Steel sinks pretty fast too, yet you dont hear people disparaging
steel boats that much. And you can easily make a steel boat unsinkable.
I'm not trying to be a defender of the faith, but I have done a
substantial amount of research into materials, and have found the
worries surrounding FC to be unfounded in any real substance. Most of
the horror stories are from folk who built the boats wrong. There are
over 11,000 boats built from the specifications given by Hartley
boats.. most of which are still afloat.
Sure, it seems counterintuitive that a 'concrete' boat could float, or
be safe at sea. However try to remember, FRP (Fiber Reinforced
Plastic) was partially developed from the idea given by SRP (Steel
Reinforced Plaster), other wise known as Ferro-cement.
Heck, the english even built a submarine out of FC. It worked nicely.
Please, check out Hartley's site (http://www.ferroboats.com)for a
primer on FC. And then get a good book on it. I did because I was very
interested in the technique. I still am, although because of our
evolving requirements we likely will not be able to use FC for our big
project.
FC is NOT a trivial material to design with, but it is an EASY
material to build with. It is also cheap comparatively, however you
have to use the right materials and the right cement in the right order.
I love wood too, I think plywood is a fantastic material to build
with, and pays in dividends later as well, since you can do post hull
construction modifications with ordinary carpentry tools.
And steel.. well it is its own beast, but owns the commercial market
because of its cost/weight/str ratios.
I guess.. well.. whatever works. :)
--T
emm. When someone asks me what I build boats out of, I say: "Wood. Wood
floats, what else would you build a boat out of?"
Regardless of how good FC or steel or fiberglass or whatnot is, I think
there can be something said for having an unsinkable boat...
floats, what else would you build a boat out of?"
Regardless of how good FC or steel or fiberglass or whatnot is, I think
there can be something said for having an unsinkable boat...
----- Original Message -----
From: "timothyennuinet" <timothy@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 2:31 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Ferro-cement
> --- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <oink@p...> wrote:
> > I don't remember Bolger showing a ferro design, and hope not to.
> > In 1970 I was invited to help complete a 60ft ferro yacht beside the
> > Thames in London. <unfortunate story of silly supposed 'expert' snipped>
>
> Hm. Well, I can tell you a similiar story about a fellow who built a
> boat badly out of plywood, and it sunk within 3 weeks of launch.
>
> FC can be an -amazingly- strong material to build a boat out of, but
> you need to follow the folks who have REALLY done it. Hartley is one
> of em (they have 1000s of WORKING FC boats out there, one of which
> held the world circumnavigation record, and now still holds it for
> boats in its size class). Samson is another, though they are not in
> the FC business anymore. (The Ferro-Cement Boat was written by Samson.
> They built 100s of FC boats professionally, almost all of which are
> still sailing)
>
> FC is a fantastic material to work with. But if you do it wrong, you
> will suffer disaster.
>
> I'll admit right away that wood is more forgiving of mistakes than FC.
> But they are still mistakes. ;)
>
> Anyhoo, if you really want to know about FC boats, go to this URL:
>
>http://www.ferroboats.com/
>
> --T
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <oink@p...> wrote:
boat badly out of plywood, and it sunk within 3 weeks of launch.
FC can be an -amazingly- strong material to build a boat out of, but
you need to follow the folks who have REALLY done it. Hartley is one
of em (they have 1000s of WORKING FC boats out there, one of which
held the world circumnavigation record, and now still holds it for
boats in its size class). Samson is another, though they are not in
the FC business anymore. (The Ferro-Cement Boat was written by Samson.
They built 100s of FC boats professionally, almost all of which are
still sailing)
FC is a fantastic material to work with. But if you do it wrong, you
will suffer disaster.
I'll admit right away that wood is more forgiving of mistakes than FC.
But they are still mistakes. ;)
Anyhoo, if you really want to know about FC boats, go to this URL:
http://www.ferroboats.com/
--T
> I don't remember Bolger showing a ferro design, and hope not to.Hm. Well, I can tell you a similiar story about a fellow who built a
> In 1970 I was invited to help complete a 60ft ferro yacht beside the
> Thames in London. <unfortunate story of silly supposed 'expert' snipped>
boat badly out of plywood, and it sunk within 3 weeks of launch.
FC can be an -amazingly- strong material to build a boat out of, but
you need to follow the folks who have REALLY done it. Hartley is one
of em (they have 1000s of WORKING FC boats out there, one of which
held the world circumnavigation record, and now still holds it for
boats in its size class). Samson is another, though they are not in
the FC business anymore. (The Ferro-Cement Boat was written by Samson.
They built 100s of FC boats professionally, almost all of which are
still sailing)
FC is a fantastic material to work with. But if you do it wrong, you
will suffer disaster.
I'll admit right away that wood is more forgiving of mistakes than FC.
But they are still mistakes. ;)
Anyhoo, if you really want to know about FC boats, go to this URL:
http://www.ferroboats.com/
--T
--- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <oink@p...> wrote:
> I don't remember Bolger showing a ferro design, and hope not to.See Design #263, the Party Fishing Boat, 49,000 lbs. Sorry....
I don't remember Bolger showing a ferro design, and hope not to.
In 1970 I was invited to help complete a 60ft ferro yacht beside the
Thames in London. I was to build the house and other timber parts.
The hull (which I did not see completed) was supervised by the author
of a book which became one of the ferro "bibles", and the boat
featured in the book. So she should have been well constructed, and
we were sailing to Lymington, then to Cape Town and the race to Rio.
I won't go into the details, but by the time we sailed into
Lymington, she resembled an old whale that had been savaged by
sharks. The Owner turned out not to be as experienced in handling a
60foot ferro boat as he thought, and ignored expert local knowledge
from others on board(not me). The most spectacular event was a sort
of mating ritual, which had us sawing high up on the back of a tug
just after her crew leapt for their lives.
But the real point was, that we bumped a steel Thames buoy at no more
than drifting pace. This left an exposed patch of steel reinforcing
the size of a large dinner plate halfway up the side, with plaster
rubble loose for several inches further around. I shudder to think of
the consequences of hitting a steel container at sea, below the
waterline. There seemed to be more damage in total on this boat than
I felt a solid timber boat would have shown.
Personally, for ocean sailing (I can't imagine you would want a heavy
ferro boat for any other purpose), a steel hull would be the safest
option in these times of prolific floating garbage. Using modern
materials, the level of protection and upkeep would be no worse than
wood/epoxy.
Bye the bye, we were met at Lymington by security people who nailed a
writ to the mast, and trolleyed off the sails and navigation
equipment. Some bills had not been paid, so we lead a great life on
the marina for the next 3 months. Upon the Owners return, we declined
the offer of further adventures.
DonB
In 1970 I was invited to help complete a 60ft ferro yacht beside the
Thames in London. I was to build the house and other timber parts.
The hull (which I did not see completed) was supervised by the author
of a book which became one of the ferro "bibles", and the boat
featured in the book. So she should have been well constructed, and
we were sailing to Lymington, then to Cape Town and the race to Rio.
I won't go into the details, but by the time we sailed into
Lymington, she resembled an old whale that had been savaged by
sharks. The Owner turned out not to be as experienced in handling a
60foot ferro boat as he thought, and ignored expert local knowledge
from others on board(not me). The most spectacular event was a sort
of mating ritual, which had us sawing high up on the back of a tug
just after her crew leapt for their lives.
But the real point was, that we bumped a steel Thames buoy at no more
than drifting pace. This left an exposed patch of steel reinforcing
the size of a large dinner plate halfway up the side, with plaster
rubble loose for several inches further around. I shudder to think of
the consequences of hitting a steel container at sea, below the
waterline. There seemed to be more damage in total on this boat than
I felt a solid timber boat would have shown.
Personally, for ocean sailing (I can't imagine you would want a heavy
ferro boat for any other purpose), a steel hull would be the safest
option in these times of prolific floating garbage. Using modern
materials, the level of protection and upkeep would be no worse than
wood/epoxy.
Bye the bye, we were met at Lymington by security people who nailed a
writ to the mast, and trolleyed off the sails and navigation
equipment. Some bills had not been paid, so we lead a great life on
the marina for the next 3 months. Upon the Owners return, we declined
the offer of further adventures.
DonB