Re: biaxial cloth anyone?
--- In bolger@y..., "sanmi" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
then pored, in our case, just regular mixed resin on it. If you
thicken the resin that you are wetting out with, then it just makes
it more difficult to get it to penetrate. Gravity is the best tool
for getting the resin on, and poor it on and let it sit until it wets
out (need slow enough cure epoxy). If anything, if you were
concerned about the resin sloughing back out, you could coat the
surfaces with some thickened epoxy after it was wetted out, sort of
to seal it.
> Thanks all for the comments and suggestions!I think we pretty much always layed it out flat on some plastic, and
>
then pored, in our case, just regular mixed resin on it. If you
thicken the resin that you are wetting out with, then it just makes
it more difficult to get it to penetrate. Gravity is the best tool
for getting the resin on, and poor it on and let it sit until it wets
out (need slow enough cure epoxy). If anything, if you were
concerned about the resin sloughing back out, you could coat the
surfaces with some thickened epoxy after it was wetted out, sort of
to seal it.
In a message dated 6/25/02 5:05:40 PM Central Daylight Time,sanmi@...
writes:
I'm not sure if this suggestion is of any interest, but here goes:
I once had occasion to use bias-cut strips of regular glass cloth to cover
the inside and outside stems of a canoe. This stuff had the great virtue of
being "virtually" stretchy. That is, the fibers slid by one another,
permitting the tape to fit smoothly around or inside the stem without any
puckers. The drawback of the stuff was that it lost its shape rather too
readily and was easily turned into a lumpy mess with little provocation.
What I ended up doing, and it seemed to work well, was to lay a strip out on
a plastic covered horizontal board and saturate it thoroughly with the
minimum of mechanical stress - I believe I used a generous excess of resin
and some gentle rolling with a roller, but my memory is hazy. I then rolled
the strip up around a dowel, which squeezed out some excess resin. I applied
it by unrolling it over the joint and using a brush to smooth out the tape on
either side. I obtained fully transparent tapes that are imperceptible under
varnish.
I've never used biaxial tapes. I suspect that they are not afflicted with the
mechanical properties that my home-made bias-cut tapes had and it was those
mechanical properties that led me to this expedient. However, I wonder if
pre-saturation like this wouldn't be useful if you are having trouble getting
the weave filled?
"No experience, purely theoretical"
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Success means no air gaps!Have you considered pre-saturating the strips?
>
I'm not sure if this suggestion is of any interest, but here goes:
I once had occasion to use bias-cut strips of regular glass cloth to cover
the inside and outside stems of a canoe. This stuff had the great virtue of
being "virtually" stretchy. That is, the fibers slid by one another,
permitting the tape to fit smoothly around or inside the stem without any
puckers. The drawback of the stuff was that it lost its shape rather too
readily and was easily turned into a lumpy mess with little provocation.
What I ended up doing, and it seemed to work well, was to lay a strip out on
a plastic covered horizontal board and saturate it thoroughly with the
minimum of mechanical stress - I believe I used a generous excess of resin
and some gentle rolling with a roller, but my memory is hazy. I then rolled
the strip up around a dowel, which squeezed out some excess resin. I applied
it by unrolling it over the joint and using a brush to smooth out the tape on
either side. I obtained fully transparent tapes that are imperceptible under
varnish.
I've never used biaxial tapes. I suspect that they are not afflicted with the
mechanical properties that my home-made bias-cut tapes had and it was those
mechanical properties that led me to this expedient. However, I wonder if
pre-saturation like this wouldn't be useful if you are having trouble getting
the weave filled?
"No experience, purely theoretical"
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One thing that has worked for me in the past is to prime the area to be
covered with epoxy and let it start to firm up. Same for the cloth. (lay
it on wax paper) It'll get sticky like fly paper but still be flexible and
soft. Press your well saturated and sticky cloth into it. Press in well to
get it smooth and no air bubbles. Finish off with thickened epoxy troweled
over the whole thing. Something thick like peanut butter so it won't run or
sag out.
It's tricky to catch it in the right stage because temperature variations so
be patient but waiting too long has the obvious problems and work it to soon
and it'll sag as before. Touch the tape with a glove, if it lifts the tape
without allowing it to drop off, your about right. Use wax paper to press
it in good.
Jeff
covered with epoxy and let it start to firm up. Same for the cloth. (lay
it on wax paper) It'll get sticky like fly paper but still be flexible and
soft. Press your well saturated and sticky cloth into it. Press in well to
get it smooth and no air bubbles. Finish off with thickened epoxy troweled
over the whole thing. Something thick like peanut butter so it won't run or
sag out.
It's tricky to catch it in the right stage because temperature variations so
be patient but waiting too long has the obvious problems and work it to soon
and it'll sag as before. Touch the tape with a glove, if it lifts the tape
without allowing it to drop off, your about right. Use wax paper to press
it in good.
Jeff
Thanks all for the comments and suggestions!
Answers to Todd's questions: on my third experiment, I did try
filling with a second coat afterwards, using resin thickened to
catsup consistency, but I wasn't able to fill all of the air spaces -
I can see all kinds of little air gaps under the hard coating. Just
as proaconstrictor says. Not good for a below-water chine.
Since I already have the cloth and I don't want to waste it, I think
I'm going to experiment one more time.
Here's my test plan:
test 1
- Wet out the bare wood with unthickened resin.
- Lay the biaxial cloth onto a vertical surface of plywood and wet it
out with my laminating roller.
- squeegee out the excess
- Make thickened resin, catsup style.
- fill in all gaps with the thick stuff
- let it kick
- Roll on the second layer of biaxial cloth.
- wet it out with unthickened resin
- Make thickened resin, catsup style.
- fill in all gaps with the thick stuff
test 2
- lay on a third layer of 3 oz cloth over a small section to see if
it smoothes things out
test 3
- lay on some plastic wrap over a small section to see if it smoothes
things out
Success means no air gaps!
Frank
Wilmington, DE
Answers to Todd's questions: on my third experiment, I did try
filling with a second coat afterwards, using resin thickened to
catsup consistency, but I wasn't able to fill all of the air spaces -
I can see all kinds of little air gaps under the hard coating. Just
as proaconstrictor says. Not good for a below-water chine.
Since I already have the cloth and I don't want to waste it, I think
I'm going to experiment one more time.
Here's my test plan:
test 1
- Wet out the bare wood with unthickened resin.
- Lay the biaxial cloth onto a vertical surface of plywood and wet it
out with my laminating roller.
- squeegee out the excess
- Make thickened resin, catsup style.
- fill in all gaps with the thick stuff
- let it kick
- Roll on the second layer of biaxial cloth.
- wet it out with unthickened resin
- Make thickened resin, catsup style.
- fill in all gaps with the thick stuff
test 2
- lay on a third layer of 3 oz cloth over a small section to see if
it smoothes things out
test 3
- lay on some plastic wrap over a small section to see if it smoothes
things out
Success means no air gaps!
Frank
Wilmington, DE
--- In bolger@y..., "ntsrfer" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> I had trouble with just puting a single layer of glass on . I
> couldn't imagine trying to wet out two layers at once. Is there a
> tool that my make it easier to saturate the two layers together and
> allow for both layers to stay intacked. It does sound like a lot of
> work .
>
> I my self was also interested in using biaxial tape/cloth in a
repair.
>
>
> Todd
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> > --- In bolger@y..., "ntsrfer" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > > I have never worked with the biaxial tape, but if it wets out
and
> > > sticks to the chine isn't that all you need. Then go back and
> used
> > a
> > > thicker mixture to fill in the weave? Am I missing something?
> > >
> > > Todd
> >
> > There are degrees of filling. If it sticks, and the glass is all
> > gooed, but it is just a lattice, sometimes secondary coats won't
> > penetrate, not to mention the work involved it doing them. With
> any
> > of this kind of stuff, it is a fair guess, it was designed to be
> used
> > in a female mold. If it doesn't work for plywood, find some
stuff
> > that will.
I had trouble with just puting a single layer of glass on . I
couldn't imagine trying to wet out two layers at once. Is there a
tool that my make it easier to saturate the two layers together and
allow for both layers to stay intacked. It does sound like a lot of
work .
I my self was also interested in using biaxial tape/cloth in a repair.
Todd
couldn't imagine trying to wet out two layers at once. Is there a
tool that my make it easier to saturate the two layers together and
allow for both layers to stay intacked. It does sound like a lot of
work .
I my self was also interested in using biaxial tape/cloth in a repair.
Todd
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "ntsrfer" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > I have never worked with the biaxial tape, but if it wets out and
> > sticks to the chine isn't that all you need. Then go back and
used
> a
> > thicker mixture to fill in the weave? Am I missing something?
> >
> > Todd
>
> There are degrees of filling. If it sticks, and the glass is all
> gooed, but it is just a lattice, sometimes secondary coats won't
> penetrate, not to mention the work involved it doing them. With
any
> of this kind of stuff, it is a fair guess, it was designed to be
used
> in a female mold. If it doesn't work for plywood, find some stuff
> that will.
--- In bolger@y..., "ntsrfer" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
gooed, but it is just a lattice, sometimes secondary coats won't
penetrate, not to mention the work involved it doing them. With any
of this kind of stuff, it is a fair guess, it was designed to be used
in a female mold. If it doesn't work for plywood, find some stuff
that will.
> I have never worked with the biaxial tape, but if it wets out anda
> sticks to the chine isn't that all you need. Then go back and used
> thicker mixture to fill in the weave? Am I missing something?There are degrees of filling. If it sticks, and the glass is all
>
> Todd
gooed, but it is just a lattice, sometimes secondary coats won't
penetrate, not to mention the work involved it doing them. With any
of this kind of stuff, it is a fair guess, it was designed to be used
in a female mold. If it doesn't work for plywood, find some stuff
that will.
I have never worked with the biaxial tape, but if it wets out and
sticks to the chine isn't that all you need. Then go back and used a
thicker mixture to fill in the weave? Am I missing something?
Todd
sticks to the chine isn't that all you need. Then go back and used a
thicker mixture to fill in the weave? Am I missing something?
Todd
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> ---
> > I am doing some experiments with 12 oz biaxial cloth for
> reinforcing
> > the outside of the chine. Biaxial is supposed to be much
stronger
> > per unit thickness than cloth. But I haven't gottent it to work
> > yet...
> >
>
>
> I used to buy that, Now I don't know. The idea is that all the
> starnds cross the joint rather than regular cloth in which they lie
> parallel. The someone pointed out the strength goes down by the
sine
> or cos of the angle, and you are back to 90 deg tape having
simmilar
> strength.
>
>
>
>
> > thickening the resin too much might compromise the strength of
the
> > lamination since all of the books say to use unthickened epoxy
for
> > laminating. I'm using Raka 2-1 epoxy which is a little less
> viscous
> > than the 5:1 blends (so says Raka).
>
> I have used paste to stick fabric to stuff like ceillings, but the
> fabric itself was pre-loaded with resin, on the flat. You could
try
> the peel ply like techniques suggested by others. I don't think
the
> vicosity of the resin maters as long as it penetrates/squeegees
> fully. Some time you can let the resin start to gel a littl first
in
> a deep conatainer, them spread it out fast. That probably isn't
100%
> strength either, but I have never had a failure in the layup. If
the
> fabric is as course as you say, I am not sure it is the right thing
> for the situation. The DBX bias I used was relatively difficult to
> wet out with standard resin. There was a lot of stuff in there, it
> wasn't open. System 3 used to sell the cloth, and may still. I
> don't remember where I got the 8" tape.
>
>
>
> >
> > I have no such problem doing the same thing with 3oz cloth with
the
> > same resin. The biaxial is very open.
> >
> > Has anyone here had any luck sheathing vertical surfaces with
> biaxial
> > tape??
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Frank
> > Wilmington, DE
---
starnds cross the joint rather than regular cloth in which they lie
parallel. The someone pointed out the strength goes down by the sine
or cos of the angle, and you are back to 90 deg tape having simmilar
strength.
fabric itself was pre-loaded with resin, on the flat. You could try
the peel ply like techniques suggested by others. I don't think the
vicosity of the resin maters as long as it penetrates/squeegees
fully. Some time you can let the resin start to gel a littl first in
a deep conatainer, them spread it out fast. That probably isn't 100%
strength either, but I have never had a failure in the layup. If the
fabric is as course as you say, I am not sure it is the right thing
for the situation. The DBX bias I used was relatively difficult to
wet out with standard resin. There was a lot of stuff in there, it
wasn't open. System 3 used to sell the cloth, and may still. I
don't remember where I got the 8" tape.
> I am doing some experiments with 12 oz biaxial cloth forreinforcing
> the outside of the chine. Biaxial is supposed to be much strongerI used to buy that, Now I don't know. The idea is that all the
> per unit thickness than cloth. But I haven't gottent it to work
> yet...
>
starnds cross the joint rather than regular cloth in which they lie
parallel. The someone pointed out the strength goes down by the sine
or cos of the angle, and you are back to 90 deg tape having simmilar
strength.
> thickening the resin too much might compromise the strength of theviscous
> lamination since all of the books say to use unthickened epoxy for
> laminating. I'm using Raka 2-1 epoxy which is a little less
> than the 5:1 blends (so says Raka).I have used paste to stick fabric to stuff like ceillings, but the
fabric itself was pre-loaded with resin, on the flat. You could try
the peel ply like techniques suggested by others. I don't think the
vicosity of the resin maters as long as it penetrates/squeegees
fully. Some time you can let the resin start to gel a littl first in
a deep conatainer, them spread it out fast. That probably isn't 100%
strength either, but I have never had a failure in the layup. If the
fabric is as course as you say, I am not sure it is the right thing
for the situation. The DBX bias I used was relatively difficult to
wet out with standard resin. There was a lot of stuff in there, it
wasn't open. System 3 used to sell the cloth, and may still. I
don't remember where I got the 8" tape.
>biaxial
> I have no such problem doing the same thing with 3oz cloth with the
> same resin. The biaxial is very open.
>
> Has anyone here had any luck sheathing vertical surfaces with
> tape??
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Frank
> Wilmington, DE
I recently did a similar fix, filling some holes on a vertical
surface where I taped a length of 6 mil plastic sheet about three
inches above the area where I had to patch. I then draped it over the
patch and rolled it fairly flat. Worked great.
surface where I taped a length of 6 mil plastic sheet about three
inches above the area where I had to patch. I then draped it over the
patch and rolled it fairly flat. Worked great.
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> Before it runs, try putting plastic or wax paper over the tape. Put
a few
> inches of extra epoxy around the glass, then your wax paper will
just stick
> on.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sanmi" <sanmi@y...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:14 AM
> Subject: [bolger] biaxial cloth anyone?
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I am doing some experiments with 12 oz biaxial cloth for
reinforcing
> > the outside of the chine. Biaxial is supposed to be much stronger
> > per unit thickness than cloth. But I haven't gottent it to work
> > yet...
> >
> > I've made a few 16" long "test chines" that have the same make-up
and
> > radius (this is a repair, so the boat is right-side up, not upside
> > down). I've tried three times, but every time, the resin drains
out
> > of the vertical part of the tape so that there are these little
open
> > spaces in the weave. I've tried various levels of thickener,
fused
> > silica (like cabosil), but never went to paste thickness. I'm
afraid
> > thickening the resin too much might compromise the strength of the
> > lamination since all of the books say to use unthickened epoxy for
> > laminating. I'm using Raka 2-1 epoxy which is a little less
viscous
> > than the 5:1 blends (so says Raka).
> >
> > I have no such problem doing the same thing with 3oz cloth with
the
> > same resin. The biaxial is very open.
> >
> > Has anyone here had any luck sheathing vertical surfaces with
biaxial
> > tape??
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Frank
> > Wilmington, DE
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
<snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
Before it runs, try putting plastic or wax paper over the tape. Put a few
inches of extra epoxy around the glass, then your wax paper will just stick
on.
inches of extra epoxy around the glass, then your wax paper will just stick
on.
----- Original Message -----
From: "sanmi" <sanmi@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 6:14 AM
Subject: [bolger] biaxial cloth anyone?
> Hi all,
>
> I am doing some experiments with 12 oz biaxial cloth for reinforcing
> the outside of the chine. Biaxial is supposed to be much stronger
> per unit thickness than cloth. But I haven't gottent it to work
> yet...
>
> I've made a few 16" long "test chines" that have the same make-up and
> radius (this is a repair, so the boat is right-side up, not upside
> down). I've tried three times, but every time, the resin drains out
> of the vertical part of the tape so that there are these little open
> spaces in the weave. I've tried various levels of thickener, fused
> silica (like cabosil), but never went to paste thickness. I'm afraid
> thickening the resin too much might compromise the strength of the
> lamination since all of the books say to use unthickened epoxy for
> laminating. I'm using Raka 2-1 epoxy which is a little less viscous
> than the 5:1 blends (so says Raka).
>
> I have no such problem doing the same thing with 3oz cloth with the
> same resin. The biaxial is very open.
>
> Has anyone here had any luck sheathing vertical surfaces with biaxial
> tape??
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Frank
> Wilmington, DE
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Hi all,
I am doing some experiments with 12 oz biaxial cloth for reinforcing
the outside of the chine. Biaxial is supposed to be much stronger
per unit thickness than cloth. But I haven't gottent it to work
yet...
I've made a few 16" long "test chines" that have the same make-up and
radius (this is a repair, so the boat is right-side up, not upside
down). I've tried three times, but every time, the resin drains out
of the vertical part of the tape so that there are these little open
spaces in the weave. I've tried various levels of thickener, fused
silica (like cabosil), but never went to paste thickness. I'm afraid
thickening the resin too much might compromise the strength of the
lamination since all of the books say to use unthickened epoxy for
laminating. I'm using Raka 2-1 epoxy which is a little less viscous
than the 5:1 blends (so says Raka).
I have no such problem doing the same thing with 3oz cloth with the
same resin. The biaxial is very open.
Has anyone here had any luck sheathing vertical surfaces with biaxial
tape??
Thanks in advance.
Frank
Wilmington, DE
I am doing some experiments with 12 oz biaxial cloth for reinforcing
the outside of the chine. Biaxial is supposed to be much stronger
per unit thickness than cloth. But I haven't gottent it to work
yet...
I've made a few 16" long "test chines" that have the same make-up and
radius (this is a repair, so the boat is right-side up, not upside
down). I've tried three times, but every time, the resin drains out
of the vertical part of the tape so that there are these little open
spaces in the weave. I've tried various levels of thickener, fused
silica (like cabosil), but never went to paste thickness. I'm afraid
thickening the resin too much might compromise the strength of the
lamination since all of the books say to use unthickened epoxy for
laminating. I'm using Raka 2-1 epoxy which is a little less viscous
than the 5:1 blends (so says Raka).
I have no such problem doing the same thing with 3oz cloth with the
same resin. The biaxial is very open.
Has anyone here had any luck sheathing vertical surfaces with biaxial
tape??
Thanks in advance.
Frank
Wilmington, DE