Re: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
Jeff,
It sounds like you won't need kerfs to solve your Wyoming cabin roof
problem, but if it turns out you do, make them with a router and a thin
veining or straight bit. It's much safer and easier to control than a
saw.
Good luck,
Ford Walton
It sounds like you won't need kerfs to solve your Wyoming cabin roof
problem, but if it turns out you do, make them with a router and a thin
veining or straight bit. It's much safer and easier to control than a
saw.
Good luck,
Ford Walton
Actually you are correct, I said beams but stringers are what I'm going to
trial fit. I can still alter and beef up the bulkheads to handle the loads.
Like PCB, I prefer them over beams.
Jeff
trial fit. I can still alter and beef up the bulkheads to handle the loads.
Like PCB, I prefer them over beams.
Jeff
> I've suppose you've thought of, and rejected, using stringers instead of
> beams. PCB recommends them somewhere -- not for Wyo -- pointing out that
> people are less likely to bump into them and when they do, it'll be a
> glancing blow. Of course the ends of the strigers will still have to be
> fitted to beams or bulkheads.
In a message dated 04-07-02 12:11:51 AM E. Australia Standard Time,
boatbuilding@...writes:
beams. PCB recommends them somewhere -- not for Wyo -- pointing out that
people are less likely to bump into them and when they do, it'll be a
glancing blow. Of course the ends of the strigers will still have to be
fitted to beams or bulkheads.
Howard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
boatbuilding@...writes:
> . Somehow I think the onlyI've suppose you've thought of, and rejected, using stringers instead of
> solution is beams to carry the load.
>
beams. PCB recommends them somewhere -- not for Wyo -- pointing out that
people are less likely to bump into them and when they do, it'll be a
glancing blow. Of course the ends of the strigers will still have to be
fitted to beams or bulkheads.
Howard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Do you need the crown to the deck for head clearance below?I'd use Vince's method for the main cabin. Can't do much with the lower
>
> If so, what Vince is doing won't help you. If have the room below
> for
> a flat overhead you'll still have to remove what you have installed
> to
> re-plumb the house sides.
sleeping cabin roof I'm having fits with right now. The Wyo has a 80 inch
cabin height for the main so adding an inch or two and doing as Vince did
would make a nice cabin top and not loose head room. Besides, I'm 6 foot
and the wife is 5' 3" so 6'8" is plenty.
Maybe I missed something.
Do you need the crown to the deck for head clearance below?
If so, what Vince is doing won't help you. If have the room below
for
a flat overhead you'll still have to remove what you have installed
to
re-plumb the house sides. Using a router like Tom described I removed
a 1/4" ply pilothouse roof on my Microtrawler a few years ago. It
works real slick -(You did use silicon bronze nails, right?) So if
you're cutting the top off anyway, the two layers of 1/4" laminated
on
a form sure seems the way to go from where I'm sitting <g>
Another opinion... before you go making up beams, or cutting the top
off, what about forcefully bending a scrap of 1/2" meranti ply to the
desired deck crown, cutting some trial kerfs to see how many and how
deep, then do the epoxy thing, after it kicks, jump up and down on it
to see how strong it is?
Rick
Do you need the crown to the deck for head clearance below?
If so, what Vince is doing won't help you. If have the room below
for
a flat overhead you'll still have to remove what you have installed
to
re-plumb the house sides. Using a router like Tom described I removed
a 1/4" ply pilothouse roof on my Microtrawler a few years ago. It
works real slick -(You did use silicon bronze nails, right?) So if
you're cutting the top off anyway, the two layers of 1/4" laminated
on
a form sure seems the way to go from where I'm sitting <g>
Another opinion... before you go making up beams, or cutting the top
off, what about forcefully bending a scrap of 1/2" meranti ply to the
desired deck crown, cutting some trial kerfs to see how many and how
deep, then do the epoxy thing, after it kicks, jump up and down on it
to see how strong it is?
Rick
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> Great idea! It should work the same on the Wyo other than the
windows are a
> lot bigger on the Wyo so will have to figure out the stringers.
Maybe I can
> raise the roof height an inch or two which you could do easily and
not know
> the difference.
>
> Can't wait for more pics.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff
>
> > Here's what I did on the Dakota main cabin.
> >
"Would you like a simple device to steam bend wood
without burning down your house?" Yes please.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
without burning down your house?" Yes please.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Great idea! It should work the same on the Wyo other than the windows are a
lot bigger on the Wyo so will have to figure out the stringers. Maybe I can
raise the roof height an inch or two which you could do easily and not know
the difference.
Can't wait for more pics.
Thanks
Jeff
lot bigger on the Wyo so will have to figure out the stringers. Maybe I can
raise the roof height an inch or two which you could do easily and not know
the difference.
Can't wait for more pics.
Thanks
Jeff
> Here's what I did on the Dakota main cabin.
>
> My concern is that just these butts alone could be a big part of theAgreed, hind sight I guess.
> problem. Bending 1/2" is one thing, bending that and even one 1/8"
> of additional material is a lot more (125 vs 64 in stiffness ratio),
> so part of you flexibility problem could be joints.
Simply put, this is where experience on building big boats comes into play
and I have none. When I do the main cabin, I'll laminate up some cedar
beams to support the roof. Much like I saw in pictures of the Dakota being
built by Vince.
Jeff
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
problem. Bending 1/2" is one thing, bending that and even one 1/8"
of additional material is a lot more (125 vs 64 in stiffness ratio),
so part of you flexibility problem could be joints. If the roof were
made of 1/2" with scarphs or as others have said, double 1/4", it
might be fine. Though I agree with you, you need some beams, to
resist the springback, unless you went with something very light like
1/8" and core. By the way, I think you could get 1/4" at any home
depot, something like some Luan or even fir. If glassed on the top,
which I think is essential for the durability of any deck, then you
don't need marine. There is a case for marine below the water line,
but above (when glassed), I think it is pretty optional.You could bag
Dfir inside, and luan outside, for all the advantages. Make a big
piece. If you drape the sheats over some temp supports, they will
bag in the curve, and you will get curved plywood, full length to
your needs. Have a look over at Kurt Hughes pages for a discusion of
cilynder moulding.
> > How are these sheets joined end for end? Are there butts,scarphs,
> > or is this an exercise in double overlay? except for the scarphs,much for
> > you are talking a huge build-up for stiffness.
>
> They are butt spliced with fiberglass tape and an oak strip on the
> underside. I would doubt you could get the stiffness needed not as
> the roof panels as the side panels. Short of putting large bracessomehow,
> I think they will bow out regardless. They are attached to theinside of
> the rub rail / sheer which is 5 inches wide and about 14 inchestall with a
> 2x2 cedar strip at the top. Eventually they will move out causingthe top
> to sag. I believe the only real solution is internal or externalbeams.
>My concern is that just these butts alone could be a big part of the
problem. Bending 1/2" is one thing, bending that and even one 1/8"
of additional material is a lot more (125 vs 64 in stiffness ratio),
so part of you flexibility problem could be joints. If the roof were
made of 1/2" with scarphs or as others have said, double 1/4", it
might be fine. Though I agree with you, you need some beams, to
resist the springback, unless you went with something very light like
1/8" and core. By the way, I think you could get 1/4" at any home
depot, something like some Luan or even fir. If glassed on the top,
which I think is essential for the durability of any deck, then you
don't need marine. There is a case for marine below the water line,
but above (when glassed), I think it is pretty optional.You could bag
Dfir inside, and luan outside, for all the advantages. Make a big
piece. If you drape the sheats over some temp supports, they will
bag in the curve, and you will get curved plywood, full length to
your needs. Have a look over at Kurt Hughes pages for a discusion of
cilynder moulding.
> Jeff
> Since it's already in place, why not laminate a 1/4" over it toI have my doubts that it would hold up, I think eventually the sides will
> finish at 3/4"?
give and it'll sag. Now we are talking just an inch or so but visually it
would be very noticable and look poorly made. Somehow I think the only
solution is beams to carry the load.
Jeff
> How are these sheets joined end for end? Are there butts, scarphs,They are butt spliced with fiberglass tape and an oak strip on the
> or is this an exercise in double overlay? except for the scarphs,
> you are talking a huge build-up for stiffness.
underside. I would doubt you could get the stiffness needed not as much for
the roof panels as the side panels. Short of putting large braces somehow,
I think they will bow out regardless. They are attached to the inside of
the rub rail / sheer which is 5 inches wide and about 14 inches tall with a
2x2 cedar strip at the top. Eventually they will move out causing the top
to sag. I believe the only real solution is internal or external beams.
Jeff
Since it's already in place, why not laminate a 1/4" over it to
finish at 3/4"?
finish at 3/4"?
You might try kerfing it with a heavy knife, that would cut throught
the top layer, and might give you enough flex without any need to do
much filling. Snap some chalk lines, and brandish your prefered
knife. Obviously a test sample is called for.
How are these sheets joined end for end? Are there butts, scarphs,
or is this an exercise in double overlay? except for the scarphs,
you are talking a huge build-up for stiffness.
By the way, I have sanded away whole layers of ply with my sander, so
that would be another option sand it until it softens up, then either
DBX it or bag some 1/8" ply with a shop vac.
If it came to cutting it away, I would just cut it out, and then use
a 7" grinder to take down the nails (asuming bronze) and half inch of
ply. That should be about 10-20 seconds a foot with 40 grit. And
much of the wood could be reused for other stuff on the boat.
the top layer, and might give you enough flex without any need to do
much filling. Snap some chalk lines, and brandish your prefered
knife. Obviously a test sample is called for.
How are these sheets joined end for end? Are there butts, scarphs,
or is this an exercise in double overlay? except for the scarphs,
you are talking a huge build-up for stiffness.
By the way, I have sanded away whole layers of ply with my sander, so
that would be another option sand it until it softens up, then either
DBX it or bag some 1/8" ply with a shop vac.
If it came to cutting it away, I would just cut it out, and then use
a 7" grinder to take down the nails (asuming bronze) and half inch of
ply. That should be about 10-20 seconds a foot with 40 grit. And
much of the wood could be reused for other stuff on the boat.
Looked over the plans and instructions again and can only see
the grab rails made of 2x2s to hold the cabin roof shape.
Instructions say to install 2x2 grabs rails for safety and
cabin top stiffeners. Maybe he meant to install them first to
help hold the shape when installing to roof panel. Must fax
him....
Tearing off the existing roof is a last ditch solution for now
anyway. With the ring shank nails every 3 inches and a glue
joint that is 2 inches wide, it'll tear everything apart before
coming off. The joint is at an angle so a saws-all with a metal
blade will be needed. Forget about being able to plane or sand
it down smooth again with the cut off nails, etc.....
The group gave me several ideas for the lack of thinking on my
part. I knew when I start building being the first can be
challenging. Anyway, I laminated up a pair of beams made up of
4 - 3 inch wide layers of the Meranti plywood. I'll test fit
these lengthwise and running them parallel next the hatch
sides. I can still notch and support the bulkheads to fit them
if they work.
It seems to be about 150 lbs of force to lift the cabin top and
sides into shape so 2 of these should be about 6 or 8 times
stronger than needed. I know they are overkill but smaller
ones didn't look right, so went for the beefed up beam look.
Besides it will be walked on so strong is okay.
Will let you know how it works.
Things were working so well, but this too shall pass...
Thanks everyone! I appreciate the help.
Jeff
the grab rails made of 2x2s to hold the cabin roof shape.
Instructions say to install 2x2 grabs rails for safety and
cabin top stiffeners. Maybe he meant to install them first to
help hold the shape when installing to roof panel. Must fax
him....
Tearing off the existing roof is a last ditch solution for now
anyway. With the ring shank nails every 3 inches and a glue
joint that is 2 inches wide, it'll tear everything apart before
coming off. The joint is at an angle so a saws-all with a metal
blade will be needed. Forget about being able to plane or sand
it down smooth again with the cut off nails, etc.....
The group gave me several ideas for the lack of thinking on my
part. I knew when I start building being the first can be
challenging. Anyway, I laminated up a pair of beams made up of
4 - 3 inch wide layers of the Meranti plywood. I'll test fit
these lengthwise and running them parallel next the hatch
sides. I can still notch and support the bulkheads to fit them
if they work.
It seems to be about 150 lbs of force to lift the cabin top and
sides into shape so 2 of these should be about 6 or 8 times
stronger than needed. I know they are overkill but smaller
ones didn't look right, so went for the beefed up beam look.
Besides it will be walked on so strong is okay.
Will let you know how it works.
Things were working so well, but this too shall pass...
Thanks everyone! I appreciate the help.
Jeff
Quick look isn't finding me pictures, but I'm sticking my oar in
anyway. I would think that many shallow kerfs plus enough glass over
to match Dave Carnell's epoxy/glass joint spec for equivalent
thickness ought to be just fine without adding horrifying amounts of
weight. Kerf probably only needs to cut thru first layer with grain
that goes crosswise, tho I suppose that depends on how many layers
there are..
anyway. I would think that many shallow kerfs plus enough glass over
to match Dave Carnell's epoxy/glass joint spec for equivalent
thickness ought to be just fine without adding horrifying amounts of
weight. Kerf probably only needs to cut thru first layer with grain
that goes crosswise, tho I suppose that depends on how many layers
there are..
I have used ash with a lot of success in a few boats so far. The key
is to keep up the maintenance on it. Epoxy covered with UV varnish
works well.
My seven year old and I installed the tiller on Firefly today. It is
two pieces of 1.5" X 2" laminated ash, tapered, covered in epoxy and
we will varnish it on the next dry day. So far so good. If
anything, it may be a tad long, but I usually like the tiller on my
boats this way. It is easier to steer standing up, or sitting up by
the bulkhead on a breezy day with lots of spray. :-)Ash takes to
bending real well. Would you like a simple device to steam bend wood
without burning down your house?
David Jost
"two weeks and a launch seems plausible"
is to keep up the maintenance on it. Epoxy covered with UV varnish
works well.
My seven year old and I installed the tiller on Firefly today. It is
two pieces of 1.5" X 2" laminated ash, tapered, covered in epoxy and
we will varnish it on the next dry day. So far so good. If
anything, it may be a tad long, but I usually like the tiller on my
boats this way. It is easier to steer standing up, or sitting up by
the bulkhead on a breezy day with lots of spray. :-)Ash takes to
bending real well. Would you like a simple device to steam bend wood
without burning down your house?
David Jost
"two weeks and a launch seems plausible"
Could you strip plank it in 1/2" ply?
My favorite (and believe me every cheap bone in my body resisted at
first) is 1/8" ply with 1/2" core, and either 24 oz DBX, or more 1/8"
ply. The ply is not a special order item just get door skins.
Weighs less than 3/8" ply. but is stiffer than 3/4". Yuo can bend
the 1/8" easily over temp beams, and then pull them when they are
done. I use bals, but another option is craft paper, which might be
cheaper. You have to order the core, but the UPS guy will be dancing
up the drive with it, so i don't think it would cost much to ship.
This kind of scantling is just more wishful thinking on Bolgers
part. I like the boxy boats, but it is dilusional to think there
isn't a cost, and the cost is where you come to walking loads. Of
course this affects most decks, but the difference with most
designers is with the whole structure running at a slightly higher
cost than square boats, they are prepared for the expense.
My favorite (and believe me every cheap bone in my body resisted at
first) is 1/8" ply with 1/2" core, and either 24 oz DBX, or more 1/8"
ply. The ply is not a special order item just get door skins.
Weighs less than 3/8" ply. but is stiffer than 3/4". Yuo can bend
the 1/8" easily over temp beams, and then pull them when they are
done. I use bals, but another option is craft paper, which might be
cheaper. You have to order the core, but the UPS guy will be dancing
up the drive with it, so i don't think it would cost much to ship.
This kind of scantling is just more wishful thinking on Bolgers
part. I like the boxy boats, but it is dilusional to think there
isn't a cost, and the cost is where you come to walking loads. Of
course this affects most decks, but the difference with most
designers is with the whole structure running at a slightly higher
cost than square boats, they are prepared for the expense.
Jeff,
Far be it for me to tell a fellow builder what to do with"his
problem" considering that whatever is recommended is going to have to
be accomplished and payed for by you,not"us".
Having said that,let me just say that I am very much inclined to
cast my vote along with Tom and Jamie;remove what you've done and
start over with a double lamination of thinner stuff and add some deck
beams.
Consider the following:
It will never be easier to put things right then right now while
you are in the thick of building.
You will have by now worked up to an efficient building routine
with all the required tools/supplies at hand.
Speaking of having things at hand,I suspect the caullouses on
your hands are up the task.
It will prove educational for the other"roofs" you have still to
build.
And finally,it really isn't all that hard or should I say
scary.If I remember correctly,Mike Stockstill did do major surgery on
his Martha Jane RaMbUnCtIoUs( however he spells it! :-) ) in less then
perfect conditions and his results are commendable!
Me thinks that when you consider how little that one roof
represents in time/materials,doing it over is but a small part of the
many hours still to go,hours which you will soon forget after she is
launched with a perfect roof!
Good luck with your choices and continued success with your WYO !!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,losing a litre per hour of water in an incredible heat
wave,along the shores of the sultry St.Lawrence...........
Far be it for me to tell a fellow builder what to do with"his
problem" considering that whatever is recommended is going to have to
be accomplished and payed for by you,not"us".
Having said that,let me just say that I am very much inclined to
cast my vote along with Tom and Jamie;remove what you've done and
start over with a double lamination of thinner stuff and add some deck
beams.
Consider the following:
It will never be easier to put things right then right now while
you are in the thick of building.
You will have by now worked up to an efficient building routine
with all the required tools/supplies at hand.
Speaking of having things at hand,I suspect the caullouses on
your hands are up the task.
It will prove educational for the other"roofs" you have still to
build.
And finally,it really isn't all that hard or should I say
scary.If I remember correctly,Mike Stockstill did do major surgery on
his Martha Jane RaMbUnCtIoUs( however he spells it! :-) ) in less then
perfect conditions and his results are commendable!
Me thinks that when you consider how little that one roof
represents in time/materials,doing it over is but a small part of the
many hours still to go,hours which you will soon forget after she is
launched with a perfect roof!
Good luck with your choices and continued success with your WYO !!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,losing a litre per hour of water in an incredible heat
wave,along the shores of the sultry St.Lawrence...........
Red Oak will take epoxy with no problem.
But I would consider taking the roof off and laminating 2 layers of
1/4 inch ply despite the difficulties. It'll be a better solution in
the end, despite the hassle. If your nails are copper or bronze, you
will be able to get it off -- I would run a sabre saw around the
joint, or just inside it. Probably damage the roof panel but should
be able to save the cabin sides undamaged.
Good luck whatever you choose,
Jamie Orr
But I would consider taking the roof off and laminating 2 layers of
1/4 inch ply despite the difficulties. It'll be a better solution in
the end, despite the hassle. If your nails are copper or bronze, you
will be able to get it off -- I would run a sabre saw around the
joint, or just inside it. Probably damage the roof panel but should
be able to save the cabin sides undamaged.
Good luck whatever you choose,
Jamie Orr
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> I wasn't aware of Red Oak / epoxy being bad, just that Red Oak can
wick
> water through its grain. Hmmm.....
>
> Ash isn't as good in bending loads as Oak (chine logs, rails,
etc.) but
> stronger for shock resistant splitting (stem, keel, motor board,
etc) and
> cheaper. I use it for my hardwood of choice.
>
> Evidently I'm lucky in that I'm just using the Oak for trim pieces
because
> it matches the Meranti better where it's going to be varnished.
>
> I like your idea. I'll rip up some ash tonight.
>
> Jeff
Jeff,
I've had to do several repairs where plywood panels had to be removed
and leave internal bulkheads and stringers undamaged. I used a
router with a straight bit set to the depth of the plywood
thickness. I ran the router only over the joints and then removed
the panel. The panel can sometimes be sawn so that smaller pieces
can be worked on. In most cases I was left with the interior
structure completely undamaged, even to joint filets left in place.
Sfter the old top is gone, a new laminated one can be molded and
installed or laid up in place. If you don't have a source of 1/4 ply
then maybe there is a source of exterior door skins nearby. (door
manufacturer or building supply)
I don't understand why the plans did not specify lamination for a
crowned cabin top. Unless there are many strong interior beams, it's
the only way to get a decent arc with plywood.
Tom
I've had to do several repairs where plywood panels had to be removed
and leave internal bulkheads and stringers undamaged. I used a
router with a straight bit set to the depth of the plywood
thickness. I ran the router only over the joints and then removed
the panel. The panel can sometimes be sawn so that smaller pieces
can be worked on. In most cases I was left with the interior
structure completely undamaged, even to joint filets left in place.
Sfter the old top is gone, a new laminated one can be molded and
installed or laid up in place. If you don't have a source of 1/4 ply
then maybe there is a source of exterior door skins nearby. (door
manufacturer or building supply)
I don't understand why the plans did not specify lamination for a
crowned cabin top. Unless there are many strong interior beams, it's
the only way to get a decent arc with plywood.
Tom
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> Agreed on it all but the plywood laminating. That would mean
ripping off
> the glued down roof panel, probably distroying the side panels and
such. I
> like the idea of the hand holds and maybe laminating up a beam
across the
> top to match the curvature but installing it inside. It could be
mated up
> with the aft side of the hatchway on the inside. I wouldn't lose
headroom
> except where I'd have to duck anyway to get into the hatch.
>
> Wonder how thick, 10 layers of say 1/4" oak strips?
>
> Your right, I should fax Bolger and I will.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Crandall" <crandall@u...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
>
>
> > You've rec'd good advice.
> >
> > 1) You should laminate up from smaller ply. This will put in the
pre-bend
> > you need.
> >
> > 2) You shouldn't kerf. You know it, we know it. Don't do it.
It will
> > substantially weaken the roof, in terms of stiffness. The tensile
> > strength of wood is much better than epoxy.
> >
> > 3) What's left? Crappy looking beams.
> >
> > 4) Go out and get that quarter-inch plywood, suck it up, and
laminate it
> > over a mold. You'll get a truly superior piece. Of course, if
you do not
> > consider the coach roof a critical piece of the construction,
then go
> > ahead and kerf.
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
<snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
I wasn't aware of Red Oak / epoxy being bad, just that Red Oak can wick
water through its grain. Hmmm.....
Ash isn't as good in bending loads as Oak (chine logs, rails, etc.) but
stronger for shock resistant splitting (stem, keel, motor board, etc) and
cheaper. I use it for my hardwood of choice.
Evidently I'm lucky in that I'm just using the Oak for trim pieces because
it matches the Meranti better where it's going to be varnished.
I like your idea. I'll rip up some ash tonight.
Jeff
water through its grain. Hmmm.....
Ash isn't as good in bending loads as Oak (chine logs, rails, etc.) but
stronger for shock resistant splitting (stem, keel, motor board, etc) and
cheaper. I use it for my hardwood of choice.
Evidently I'm lucky in that I'm just using the Oak for trim pieces because
it matches the Meranti better where it's going to be varnished.
I like your idea. I'll rip up some ash tonight.
Jeff
On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, jeff wrote:
whenever possible. For one, epoxy isn't happy with oak, and the clamping
necessary in this case with resorcinol would be substantial.
Have you considered ash? It look like oak, only better, IMHO, and will
take epoxy just fine. It's less rot resistant, but in this application, I
cannot imagine much of a problem, esp. since it should be 100 coated with
epoxy anyway.
> Agreed on it all but the plywood laminating. That would mean ripping offAh, well that's a complexity I hadn't imagined.
> the glued down roof panel, probably distroying the side panels and such.
> Wonder how thick, 10 layers of say 1/4" oak strips?That seems like plenty to me. I personally dislike red oak, and avoid it
whenever possible. For one, epoxy isn't happy with oak, and the clamping
necessary in this case with resorcinol would be substantial.
Have you considered ash? It look like oak, only better, IMHO, and will
take epoxy just fine. It's less rot resistant, but in this application, I
cannot imagine much of a problem, esp. since it should be 100 coated with
epoxy anyway.
> Use a torch to heat up a knife, and slip it into your glued joints,they'll
> come right apart.Used ring shank boat nails as fasteners. Per plans.
Use a torch to heat up a knife, and slip it into your glued joints, they'll
come right apart.
come right apart.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeff" <boatbuilding@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
> Agreed on it all but the plywood laminating. That would mean ripping off
> the glued down roof panel, probably distroying the side panels and such.
I
> like the idea of the hand holds and maybe laminating up a beam across the
> top to match the curvature but installing it inside. It could be mated up
> with the aft side of the hatchway on the inside. I wouldn't lose headroom
> except where I'd have to duck anyway to get into the hatch.
>
> Wonder how thick, 10 layers of say 1/4" oak strips?
>
> Your right, I should fax Bolger and I will.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Crandall" <crandall@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
>
>
> > You've rec'd good advice.
> >
> > 1) You should laminate up from smaller ply. This will put in the
pre-bend
> > you need.
> >
> > 2) You shouldn't kerf. You know it, we know it. Don't do it. It will
> > substantially weaken the roof, in terms of stiffness. The tensile
> > strength of wood is much better than epoxy.
> >
> > 3) What's left? Crappy looking beams.
> >
> > 4) Go out and get that quarter-inch plywood, suck it up, and laminate it
> > over a mold. You'll get a truly superior piece. Of course, if you do
not
> > consider the coach roof a critical piece of the construction, then go
> > ahead and kerf.
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Agreed on it all but the plywood laminating. That would mean ripping off
the glued down roof panel, probably distroying the side panels and such. I
like the idea of the hand holds and maybe laminating up a beam across the
top to match the curvature but installing it inside. It could be mated up
with the aft side of the hatchway on the inside. I wouldn't lose headroom
except where I'd have to duck anyway to get into the hatch.
Wonder how thick, 10 layers of say 1/4" oak strips?
Your right, I should fax Bolger and I will.
Jeff
the glued down roof panel, probably distroying the side panels and such. I
like the idea of the hand holds and maybe laminating up a beam across the
top to match the curvature but installing it inside. It could be mated up
with the aft side of the hatchway on the inside. I wouldn't lose headroom
except where I'd have to duck anyway to get into the hatch.
Wonder how thick, 10 layers of say 1/4" oak strips?
Your right, I should fax Bolger and I will.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Crandall" <crandall@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
> You've rec'd good advice.
>
> 1) You should laminate up from smaller ply. This will put in the pre-bend
> you need.
>
> 2) You shouldn't kerf. You know it, we know it. Don't do it. It will
> substantially weaken the roof, in terms of stiffness. The tensile
> strength of wood is much better than epoxy.
>
> 3) What's left? Crappy looking beams.
>
> 4) Go out and get that quarter-inch plywood, suck it up, and laminate it
> over a mold. You'll get a truly superior piece. Of course, if you do not
> consider the coach roof a critical piece of the construction, then go
> ahead and kerf.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
You've rec'd good advice.
1) You should laminate up from smaller ply. This will put in the pre-bend
you need.
2) You shouldn't kerf. You know it, we know it. Don't do it. It will
substantially weaken the roof, in terms of stiffness. The tensile
strength of wood is much better than epoxy.
3) What's left? Crappy looking beams.
4) Go out and get that quarter-inch plywood, suck it up, and laminate it
over a mold. You'll get a truly superior piece. Of course, if you do not
consider the coach roof a critical piece of the construction, then go
ahead and kerf.
1) You should laminate up from smaller ply. This will put in the pre-bend
you need.
2) You shouldn't kerf. You know it, we know it. Don't do it. It will
substantially weaken the roof, in terms of stiffness. The tensile
strength of wood is much better than epoxy.
3) What's left? Crappy looking beams.
4) Go out and get that quarter-inch plywood, suck it up, and laminate it
over a mold. You'll get a truly superior piece. Of course, if you do not
consider the coach roof a critical piece of the construction, then go
ahead and kerf.
Still wondering about a hefty handhold, running from well in on the hatch
framing back to the bulkhead, triangulating the load that the black pole
now carries.
Also concur about saw kerfs being on the inside (compression side) if you
must (I did that on Sneakeasy forward deck to get it to bend). I doubt
that it will add much strength or curve-holding ability though. It sounds
like an engineering issue that Phil might want to know about and have an
opinion on....maybe drop him a quick fax?
--Fritz
framing back to the bulkhead, triangulating the load that the black pole
now carries.
Also concur about saw kerfs being on the inside (compression side) if you
must (I did that on Sneakeasy forward deck to get it to bend). I doubt
that it will add much strength or curve-holding ability though. It sounds
like an engineering issue that Phil might want to know about and have an
opinion on....maybe drop him a quick fax?
--Fritz
>I wasn't going to fiberglass the top, just epoxy coat since the Meranti
> If you did get desperate enought to use saw kerfs, put them on the
> inside. It's a last resort fix, though, not to be recommended.
won't check but if do the saw kerfs, I could put some 4 oz. on it to add
strength, if that would work anyway. They would have to be on the outside
as it would be too dangerous to do it on the inside and yes, last resort.
Jeff
> I'm guessing from your pictures that the hatch cutout is where theYes, as I let the brace down, it starts to flatten. All supports shown by
> flattening problem is happening.
Bolger are in place. These where put in place after the photo was taken.
> By any chance will you be adding interior joineryNo, all interior work is done. You can see that the top inside corners are
of 2" square cedar stock that's been beveled for looks so adding an
interior beam would be a challenge.
And it's so nicely varnished already! :>)
I'm curious that maybe two sets of oak runners stopping say 6 inches from
the bulkheads and nicely tapered. I'd have to pull off the existing hand
holds and rework them to run parrallel to look good but that's a lot easier.
They are made of spruce so knocking them off with a hammer and a pass or two
with a planer should remove the evidence. I would then have 4 strips of Oak
3/4" X 1" actual spaced evenly across the top on the outside. Could varnish
them for the "accent" look like the old travel trunks.
Would that hold? Maybe 6 runners?
Jeff
> Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with thickenedIf you did get desperate enought to use saw kerfs, put them on the
> epoxy?
inside. It's a last resort fix, though, not to be recommended.
Jeff,
I'm guessing from your pictures that the hatch cutout is where the
flattening problem is happening. I grappled with this same issue on
Endeavour awhile back and used some interior framing to help - in essence a
vertical extension of a "railing" for the companionway steps to brace the
end of the hatch. By any chance will you be adding interior joinery that
might carry this load here? I gather what you need is something to take
the load that the temporary black extending rod is now carrying.
It does strike me as a rather large span to not have deck beams. External
deck beams would probably work, but would make it hard to lounge around up
there, and you'd have to keep that sliding hatch clear too. Hmmm...
--Fritz
----------------
Fritz Funk
Phone: (H): (907)780-4261
My Boatbuilding Page:http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
(Bolger power sharpie "Sneakeasy" and other projects)
Joe's HomeSchool Project - Blending Aviation and Computer Technologies in
an Elementary Setting:http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Aviation/FlightSchool/
B-24 Aircrew "Roger the Lodger":http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/B24/
I'm guessing from your pictures that the hatch cutout is where the
flattening problem is happening. I grappled with this same issue on
Endeavour awhile back and used some interior framing to help - in essence a
vertical extension of a "railing" for the companionway steps to brace the
end of the hatch. By any chance will you be adding interior joinery that
might carry this load here? I gather what you need is something to take
the load that the temporary black extending rod is now carrying.
It does strike me as a rather large span to not have deck beams. External
deck beams would probably work, but would make it hard to lounge around up
there, and you'd have to keep that sliding hatch clear too. Hmmm...
--Fritz
----------------
Fritz Funk
Phone: (H): (907)780-4261
My Boatbuilding Page:http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
(Bolger power sharpie "Sneakeasy" and other projects)
Joe's HomeSchool Project - Blending Aviation and Computer Technologies in
an Elementary Setting:http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Aviation/FlightSchool/
B-24 Aircrew "Roger the Lodger":http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/B24/
Brace it up to just past the curve you want and laminate transverse
stiffeners on the upper surface. You could go all the way and add
another plywood layer on top of the transverse ribs to smooth the
profile. Pros: Solves the curve issue, adds insulating qualities; Con:
adds weight and some height.
-----Original Message-----
From: jeff [mailto:boatbuilding@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Wyo problem
I added the roof on the sleeping cabin this weekend. Bolger doesn't
show internal braces to support the arch other than a couple external
safety hand hold stips that run lengthwise about 14 inches in from the
side panels and the hatch supports.
My plywood is wanting desperately to flatten, to the point of pushing
out the side enough to be noticable. It will be difficult to put in
beams at this point and I can only assume that it's a product of the
very stiff 1/2" 7 ply Meranti plywood I'm using. This stuff is very
solid and doesn't bend very easily. Although this is an excellant
quality on a long gently curved boat like the Wyo, it's giving me fits
on the cabin top.
Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with thickened
epoxy?
Install a couple length wise runners inside, maybe on either side of the
front hatch. I hate to lose the head room but better that than a cabin
roof flexing or losing it's arch.
Any ideas?
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stiffeners on the upper surface. You could go all the way and add
another plywood layer on top of the transverse ribs to smooth the
profile. Pros: Solves the curve issue, adds insulating qualities; Con:
adds weight and some height.
-----Original Message-----
From: jeff [mailto:boatbuilding@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Wyo problem
I added the roof on the sleeping cabin this weekend. Bolger doesn't
show internal braces to support the arch other than a couple external
safety hand hold stips that run lengthwise about 14 inches in from the
side panels and the hatch supports.
My plywood is wanting desperately to flatten, to the point of pushing
out the side enough to be noticable. It will be difficult to put in
beams at this point and I can only assume that it's a product of the
very stiff 1/2" 7 ply Meranti plywood I'm using. This stuff is very
solid and doesn't bend very easily. Although this is an excellant
quality on a long gently curved boat like the Wyo, it's giving me fits
on the cabin top.
Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with thickened
epoxy?
Install a couple length wise runners inside, maybe on either side of the
front hatch. I hate to lose the head room but better that than a cabin
roof flexing or losing it's arch.
Any ideas?
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe use your saw to cut a couple or three "chines" in it?
Maybe put your temp support back in place, then glass both sides? (will that
work on a curved sheet?)
Maybe put your temp support back in place, then glass both sides? (will that
work on a curved sheet?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeff" <boatbuilding@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
> Unfortunately I followed instructions. I glued it down with a temp
support
> until the hatch supports and hand holds are installed. Besides, no 1/4"
> marine ply around here with special ordering.
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mikestockstill" <mkstocks@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:57 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
>
>
> > I would use 2 1/4" layers -- doing so will make it easier to control
> > the shape.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> > > I added the roof on the sleeping cabin this weekend. Bolger
> > doesn't show internal braces to support the arch other than a couple
> > external safety hand hold stips that run lengthwise about 14 inches
> > in from the side panels and the hatch supports.
> > >
> > > My plywood is wanting desperately to flatten, to the point of
> > pushing out the side enough to be noticable. It will be difficult to
> > put in beams at this point and I can only assume that it's a product
> > of the very stiff 1/2" 7 ply Meranti plywood I'm using. This stuff
> > is very solid and doesn't bend very easily. Although this is an
> > excellant quality on a long gently curved boat like the Wyo, it's
> > giving me fits on the cabin top.
> > >
> > > Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with
> > thickened epoxy?
> > >
> > > Install a couple length wise runners inside, maybe on either side
> > of the front hatch. I hate to lose the head room but better that
> > than a cabin roof flexing or losing it's arch.
> > >
> > > Any ideas?
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Unfortunately I followed instructions. I glued it down with a temp support
until the hatch supports and hand holds are installed. Besides, no 1/4"
marine ply around here with special ordering.
Jeff
until the hatch supports and hand holds are installed. Besides, no 1/4"
marine ply around here with special ordering.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "mikestockstill" <mkstocks@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Wyo problem
> I would use 2 1/4" layers -- doing so will make it easier to control
> the shape.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> > I added the roof on the sleeping cabin this weekend. Bolger
> doesn't show internal braces to support the arch other than a couple
> external safety hand hold stips that run lengthwise about 14 inches
> in from the side panels and the hatch supports.
> >
> > My plywood is wanting desperately to flatten, to the point of
> pushing out the side enough to be noticable. It will be difficult to
> put in beams at this point and I can only assume that it's a product
> of the very stiff 1/2" 7 ply Meranti plywood I'm using. This stuff
> is very solid and doesn't bend very easily. Although this is an
> excellant quality on a long gently curved boat like the Wyo, it's
> giving me fits on the cabin top.
> >
> > Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with
> thickened epoxy?
> >
> > Install a couple length wise runners inside, maybe on either side
> of the front hatch. I hate to lose the head room but better that
> than a cabin roof flexing or losing it's arch.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
I would use 2 1/4" layers -- doing so will make it easier to control
the shape.
Mike
the shape.
Mike
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> I added the roof on the sleeping cabin this weekend. Bolger
doesn't show internal braces to support the arch other than a couple
external safety hand hold stips that run lengthwise about 14 inches
in from the side panels and the hatch supports.
>
> My plywood is wanting desperately to flatten, to the point of
pushing out the side enough to be noticable. It will be difficult to
put in beams at this point and I can only assume that it's a product
of the very stiff 1/2" 7 ply Meranti plywood I'm using. This stuff
is very solid and doesn't bend very easily. Although this is an
excellant quality on a long gently curved boat like the Wyo, it's
giving me fits on the cabin top.
>
> Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with
thickened epoxy?
>
> Install a couple length wise runners inside, maybe on either side
of the front hatch. I hate to lose the head room but better that
than a cabin roof flexing or losing it's arch.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I added the roof on the sleeping cabin this weekend. Bolger doesn't show internal braces to support the arch other than a couple external safety hand hold stips that run lengthwise about 14 inches in from the side panels and the hatch supports.
My plywood is wanting desperately to flatten, to the point of pushing out the side enough to be noticable. It will be difficult to put in beams at this point and I can only assume that it's a product of the very stiff 1/2" 7 ply Meranti plywood I'm using. This stuff is very solid and doesn't bend very easily. Although this is an excellant quality on a long gently curved boat like the Wyo, it's giving me fits on the cabin top.
Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with thickened epoxy?
Install a couple length wise runners inside, maybe on either side of the front hatch. I hate to lose the head room but better that than a cabin roof flexing or losing it's arch.
Any ideas?
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My plywood is wanting desperately to flatten, to the point of pushing out the side enough to be noticable. It will be difficult to put in beams at this point and I can only assume that it's a product of the very stiff 1/2" 7 ply Meranti plywood I'm using. This stuff is very solid and doesn't bend very easily. Although this is an excellant quality on a long gently curved boat like the Wyo, it's giving me fits on the cabin top.
Maybe saw kerfs on the outside to relax it, then fill with thickened epoxy?
Install a couple length wise runners inside, maybe on either side of the front hatch. I hate to lose the head room but better that than a cabin roof flexing or losing it's arch.
Any ideas?
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]