RE: [bolger] Re: A more than $5 failure :-(
> I useNeat Trick! I'll remember that next time I'm browsing the metal pile at the
> an old rotisserie motor from a BBQ and then slip a small metal pipe
> in the opposite end onto a vee bearing so the whole spar can rotate
> freely. Then I epoxy the entire spar and let it rotate so there are
> no drips and the finish is flawless.
town dump - there are always discarded BBQ's, perhaps I can scrounge a motor
for when I finish my Micro mast.....
Paul L.
Misfortune and luck sadly have their places in building boats. I am
sorry to read of your misfortune. I had a similar experience while
helping a friend. We built a small ply catamaran and every thing was
fine until we finished the laminated spar for the mast. After
routering the sail slot and gluing it all together with a million
clamps it was time to apply the finish.
I like to finish my spars like many people do fishing polls. I use
an old rotisserie motor from a BBQ and then slip a small metal pipe
in the opposite end onto a vee bearing so the whole spar can rotate
freely. Then I epoxy the entire spar and let it rotate so there are
no drips and the finish is flawless. That is "if" the epoxy hardens.
In this case it didn't and it required an extra week to fix the
problem. In the end the mast still looked great but like you I don't
trust the epoxy or myself. I have even gone to the extreme of using
my micro cassette recorder to do a step by step narrative, is that
paranoia?
sorry to read of your misfortune. I had a similar experience while
helping a friend. We built a small ply catamaran and every thing was
fine until we finished the laminated spar for the mast. After
routering the sail slot and gluing it all together with a million
clamps it was time to apply the finish.
I like to finish my spars like many people do fishing polls. I use
an old rotisserie motor from a BBQ and then slip a small metal pipe
in the opposite end onto a vee bearing so the whole spar can rotate
freely. Then I epoxy the entire spar and let it rotate so there are
no drips and the finish is flawless. That is "if" the epoxy hardens.
In this case it didn't and it required an extra week to fix the
problem. In the end the mast still looked great but like you I don't
trust the epoxy or myself. I have even gone to the extreme of using
my micro cassette recorder to do a step by step narrative, is that
paranoia?
--- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> I finally had some time this weekend to work on the gull to try
> to get it in the water. Unfortunately, it looks like I have some
> repair work to do before I can proceed. :-( In the three or four
> weeks that the boat had been sitting around in my garage waiting
> to be completed, the butt block on the port side failed and
> started to come apart. Also, I discovered major sections of the
> top layer of chine tape where the epoxy hadn't cured, which were
> still a sticky mess. In one part, the tape peels right off.
>
> I've posted photos on Bolger2 in the "Epoxy Failure" section of
> the "Gloucester Gull" album under "Bolger Boats" in the Photos
> area, for any who are interested.
>
> So, I guess my project for the evening is to clean out the inside
> of the boat with vinegar, peel out any remaining uncured tape,
> and repair the port butt with clamps, screws, and epoxy. Sigh.
> Hopefully, I'll get the thing in the water before they close the
> Erie Canal for the winter....
>
> -- Sue --
> (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
> mixing the living hell out of it!)
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
Sue --
I'm surprised and disappointed to hear about your Gull!
I'm very pleased with the way we put our boats together. The light
weight has been wonderful for handling both in and out of the water,
and the boat's survived a few rough landings onto cobble bars with
minimal damage. I certainly expect to get a good few years out of the
boat at least.
As I mentioned the other day, I did have a failure. But it was a
construction choice failure, not a materials failure. A little tape
over the top of the joint should make it solid.
There are a few things I'd do differently:
1) I really liked glassing on the jig. But using just two pieces
(chine to opposite sheer) was a needless "simplification". I think
that using more pieces (bottom, side, side, bottom) would have made
the job easier and cleaner.
2) Buttering the seat, breasthook, and foot stretchers into place
seems like it worked well. My wife and I were engaged in some pretty
serious rough-housing when we cracked the joint between the seat and
the topside. I don't think adding tape is necessary, but where it's
easy to do, there's no reason not to. That probably includes the
inside of the chine.
3) Other than the way it looks, I'm unimpressed with the mahogany we
got for gunnells (sp?) For one, it doesn't hold fasteners worth bean.
(I put oar lock onto the DF gunnels of my teal using very short
screws and they held up to 3 seasons of rough treatment without
budging. The same size screws loosened up on one outing in the
mahogony. Also, one of mine cracked once it was clamped in place and
I had to do an emergency splint clamp to fix it. On closer inspection
I could see the flaw where it cracked, but I think D.F. would be
better all the way around.
There's a temptation to want to make a heavier boat for the sake of
wear and tear, but I think the advantages of lightness outweigh
concerns about durability. Surfers are accustomed to thinking of
their boards as perishable, and I think Toby falls into that category.
If Toby was a tender with people stepping in and out, dropping things
etc, I think maybe heavier would be better. But I think a Junebug
would be better still.
YIBB,
David
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
I'm surprised and disappointed to hear about your Gull!
I'm very pleased with the way we put our boats together. The light
weight has been wonderful for handling both in and out of the water,
and the boat's survived a few rough landings onto cobble bars with
minimal damage. I certainly expect to get a good few years out of the
boat at least.
As I mentioned the other day, I did have a failure. But it was a
construction choice failure, not a materials failure. A little tape
over the top of the joint should make it solid.
There are a few things I'd do differently:
1) I really liked glassing on the jig. But using just two pieces
(chine to opposite sheer) was a needless "simplification". I think
that using more pieces (bottom, side, side, bottom) would have made
the job easier and cleaner.
2) Buttering the seat, breasthook, and foot stretchers into place
seems like it worked well. My wife and I were engaged in some pretty
serious rough-housing when we cracked the joint between the seat and
the topside. I don't think adding tape is necessary, but where it's
easy to do, there's no reason not to. That probably includes the
inside of the chine.
3) Other than the way it looks, I'm unimpressed with the mahogany we
got for gunnells (sp?) For one, it doesn't hold fasteners worth bean.
(I put oar lock onto the DF gunnels of my teal using very short
screws and they held up to 3 seasons of rough treatment without
budging. The same size screws loosened up on one outing in the
mahogony. Also, one of mine cracked once it was clamped in place and
I had to do an emergency splint clamp to fix it. On closer inspection
I could see the flaw where it cracked, but I think D.F. would be
better all the way around.
There's a temptation to want to make a heavier boat for the sake of
wear and tear, but I think the advantages of lightness outweigh
concerns about durability. Surfers are accustomed to thinking of
their boards as perishable, and I think Toby falls into that category.
If Toby was a tender with people stepping in and out, dropping things
etc, I think maybe heavier would be better. But I think a Junebug
would be better still.
YIBB,
David
>> > -- Sue --C.E.P.
>> > (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
>> > mixing the living hell out of it!)
>>
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
I use Raka. I stir for AT LEAST two minutes on 3 and 4 oz batches,
including a lot of scraping with the back of a plastic knife. Has
always worked, but someday I'll be addled and bungle the measuring in
a big way and then I will have a problem. The stuff works fine if your
measuring is close, it doesn't have to be within 1% or anything, tho I
suppose it ought to be better than 10%. I just use the marks on my
mixing cups.
including a lot of scraping with the back of a plastic knife. Has
always worked, but someday I'll be addled and bungle the measuring in
a big way and then I will have a problem. The stuff works fine if your
measuring is close, it doesn't have to be within 1% or anything, tho I
suppose it ought to be better than 10%. I just use the marks on my
mixing cups.
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> > -- Sue --
> > (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
> > mixing the living hell out of it!)
>
> I've heard this before so I must be living right. I use pumps that
are
> metered for a 2:1 ratio. I check them once a week for accuracy. I
use the
> blue plastic drink cups, pump in the epoxy and hardener, stir and
scrap
> around with a toungue depressor stick for a about 30 seconds (on a 3
oz.
> batch) and start brushing. In almost 25 gallons of RAKA epoxy, I
have yet
> had a problem.
>
> I suspect my day of punishment is coming but so far so good.
>
> Jeff
I use 2:1 Raka with the plastic cups. I had the pumps, but gave them
away.
Frank
Wilminton, DE
--- In bolger@y..., "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
wrote:
away.
Frank
Wilminton, DE
--- In bolger@y..., "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "trund1024" <trund1024@a...> wrote:different
> >
> > Does anyone have any arguments/preferences regarding the
> > ratios?projects.Pumps
>
>
> Yes,I prefer the simple 2:1 ratio in graduated plastic measuring
> cups.They are infinitly re-useable if you take the time to peel
> out the cured epoxy the following day.A couple dozen of these
> plastic pales can see you through even the largest of
> have always been a source of grief for me.My epoxy of choice is
> Industrial Formulators of Canada G2 and Cold-Cure epoxy line.
----- Original Message -----
From: trund1024
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:35 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: A more than $5 failure :-(
Using a thick epoxy such as WEST in cool weather can at times be more
than a little frustrating. The thick resin combined with the lower
temps. makes it somewhat difficult to work with. At times, I've even
put the resin and hardener on a table less than 12 inches from the
stove, just to warm them up before mixing. It works but I'm not sure
how combustible epoxy is and I feel a little uneasy about that
practice. However, I have read that setting resin in a pot of hot
water (in the container) is advisable.
I've done battle with over 100 gallons of WEST and System Three (2 to 1) building boats under plastic outdoors and in unheated shops in the cold Northwest US climate and think it is definitely worth building a "hotbox" for the duration of a project to keep the resin at a set temperature, usually 60 to 70 degrees F. Make or find a plywood box that your epoxy will fit in and insulate it with sheet foam glued or taped on. Get a porcelain light socket and an inline house thermostat (about $15) to wire in. I usually use a 60W light bulb. So even on a cold morning the resin is always just right and ready to go. If the box is well insulated and sealed I don't think it uses much electricity once it is warm. I keep a thermometer in the box too. This will also keep resin from crystalizing in freezing weather.
Gary
Port Angeles, WA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In bolger@y..., "trund1024" <trund1024@a...> wrote:
cups.They are infinitly re-useable if you take the time to peel
out the cured epoxy the following day.A couple dozen of these
plastic pales can see you through even the largest of projects.Pumps
have always been a source of grief for me.My epoxy of choice is
Industrial Formulators of Canada G2 and Cold-Cure epoxy line.
with either a 12:1 scarf or a lap joint.Another method I used with
great success on the bottom of my Micro was to use a butt strap let
into the half inch bottom ply by a 1/4".A butt-lap?.......
In Susans' case with a glue starved joint,I can only see two viable
solutions,A) use a right angle grinder to put a bit of hollow on the
mating surfaces.This way,you can apply all the pressure
needed to get a nice tight seam without spitting out all
your precious epoxy.And remember,it takes no more then a
slight hollowing of the surface( a bit less then 1/8th")
to ensure a pocket for the epoxy to set up in.
B) pre-wet the mating surfaces with clear epoxy so that it
will not wick the juice out of your thickened epoxy mix.
The above has always worked for me with not a single failure.Your
experience may vary......................:-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,just back from finishing the bottom jig for WINDERMERE
and getting the first bottom layer on and boy is she ever BIG,on the
shores of the St,Lawrence...........
>Yes,I prefer the simple 2:1 ratio in graduated plastic measuring
> Does anyone have any arguments/preferences regarding the different
> ratios?
cups.They are infinitly re-useable if you take the time to peel
out the cured epoxy the following day.A couple dozen of these
plastic pales can see you through even the largest of projects.Pumps
have always been a source of grief for me.My epoxy of choice is
Industrial Formulators of Canada G2 and Cold-Cure epoxy line.
> Would a butt block benefit from a more flexible 2:1 epoxy or a moreIn my experience,butt blocks have always benefitted by being replaced
> rigid 5:1?
with either a 12:1 scarf or a lap joint.Another method I used with
great success on the bottom of my Micro was to use a butt strap let
into the half inch bottom ply by a 1/4".A butt-lap?.......
In Susans' case with a glue starved joint,I can only see two viable
solutions,A) use a right angle grinder to put a bit of hollow on the
mating surfaces.This way,you can apply all the pressure
needed to get a nice tight seam without spitting out all
your precious epoxy.And remember,it takes no more then a
slight hollowing of the surface( a bit less then 1/8th")
to ensure a pocket for the epoxy to set up in.
B) pre-wet the mating surfaces with clear epoxy so that it
will not wick the juice out of your thickened epoxy mix.
The above has always worked for me with not a single failure.Your
experience may vary......................:-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,just back from finishing the bottom jig for WINDERMERE
and getting the first bottom layer on and boy is she ever BIG,on the
shores of the St,Lawrence...........
>about
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> > > > (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid
> > > > mixing the living hell out of it!)the
> > >
> > > I've heard this before so I must be living right. I use pumps
> that
> > > are metered for a 2:1 ratio.
> >
> > This was with Raka's pumps, mixed in a clear measuring cup with
> > measuring scale as a backup. Perhaps I mixed the ratio backwardsand/or
> > by mistake on one batch, and didn't catch it? In any event, this
> > happened with the same epoxy, equipment, and methodology as the
> rest
> > of the project -- and the rest of the epoxy that we mixed hardened
> > out rock solid. Go figure.
> >
> > As for the butt joint failure, I'm guessing that it was a matter
> > of having put too much weight on the strap as it was curing,
> > not using enough epoxy, resulting in a glue-starved joint. Or at
> > least that's what the inside of the joint looks like.
> >
> > --
> > Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
I too have had 'air spitting' problems in using WEST epoxy. Most of
my projects are done in the fall/winter/spring time in a garage
heated only by a kerosene stove. I'm sure we all know that kerosene
combustion is terrible for an epoxy surface, but I save a lot of
money by not using an electric heater and haven't notice any problems
in the finish of any of my boats.
Using a thick epoxy such as WEST in cool weather can at times be more
than a little frustrating. The thick resin combined with the lower
temps. makes it somewhat difficult to work with. At times, I've even
put the resin and hardener on a table less than 12 inches from the
stove, just to warm them up before mixing. It works but I'm not sure
how combustible epoxy is and I feel a little uneasy about that
practice. However, I have read that setting resin in a pot of hot
water (in the container) is advisable.
Since changing to RAKA brand epoxy, my air bubble problems have
nearly disappeared and I've found that even in cool temps., the RAKA
resin is much less viscous which makes it easier to mix and use.
Plus, the value is unbeatable. One could argue that 2:1 epoxy does
not cure as hard as a 5:1 such as WEST, but I've built boats using
both and I have yet to see any significant differences. Besides
price.
Does anyone have any arguments/preferences regarding the different
ratios?
Would a butt block benefit from a more flexible 2:1 epoxy or a more
rigid 5:1?
Tom
my projects are done in the fall/winter/spring time in a garage
heated only by a kerosene stove. I'm sure we all know that kerosene
combustion is terrible for an epoxy surface, but I save a lot of
money by not using an electric heater and haven't notice any problems
in the finish of any of my boats.
Using a thick epoxy such as WEST in cool weather can at times be more
than a little frustrating. The thick resin combined with the lower
temps. makes it somewhat difficult to work with. At times, I've even
put the resin and hardener on a table less than 12 inches from the
stove, just to warm them up before mixing. It works but I'm not sure
how combustible epoxy is and I feel a little uneasy about that
practice. However, I have read that setting resin in a pot of hot
water (in the container) is advisable.
Since changing to RAKA brand epoxy, my air bubble problems have
nearly disappeared and I've found that even in cool temps., the RAKA
resin is much less viscous which makes it easier to mix and use.
Plus, the value is unbeatable. One could argue that 2:1 epoxy does
not cure as hard as a 5:1 such as WEST, but I've built boats using
both and I have yet to see any significant differences. Besides
price.
Does anyone have any arguments/preferences regarding the different
ratios?
Would a butt block benefit from a more flexible 2:1 epoxy or a more
rigid 5:1?
Tom
--- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> > > (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
> > > mixing the living hell out of it!)
> >
> > I've heard this before so I must be living right. I use pumps
that
> > are metered for a 2:1 ratio.
>
> This was with Raka's pumps, mixed in a clear measuring cup with the
> measuring scale as a backup. Perhaps I mixed the ratio backwards
> by mistake on one batch, and didn't catch it? In any event, this
> happened with the same epoxy, equipment, and methodology as the
rest
> of the project -- and the rest of the epoxy that we mixed hardened
> out rock solid. Go figure.
>
> As for the butt joint failure, I'm guessing that it was a matter
> of having put too much weight on the strap as it was curing, and/or
> not using enough epoxy, resulting in a glue-starved joint. Or at
> least that's what the inside of the joint looks like.
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
> > (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid aboutThis was with Raka's pumps, mixed in a clear measuring cup with the
> > mixing the living hell out of it!)
>
> I've heard this before so I must be living right. I use pumps that
> are metered for a 2:1 ratio.
measuring scale as a backup. Perhaps I mixed the ratio backwards
by mistake on one batch, and didn't catch it? In any event, this
happened with the same epoxy, equipment, and methodology as the rest
of the project -- and the rest of the epoxy that we mixed hardened
out rock solid. Go figure.
As for the butt joint failure, I'm guessing that it was a matter
of having put too much weight on the strap as it was curing, and/or
not using enough epoxy, resulting in a glue-starved joint. Or at
least that's what the inside of the joint looks like.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
I'm using Raka for the first time on my Micro, and had this happen with the
bow transom of my Micro, first piece I built - the epoxy never set up hard,
and after leaving it over the furnace for 2 weeks and still being able to
get a good fingerprint in the fillets, I finally tossed it in the scrap bin
and built another one. I am always very careful with the stirring, so
suspected ratio problems. I've used ~30 gallons of West epoxy with pumps,
had alot of problems with their bigger pumps spitting air bubbles so was
trying to measure the Raka using cups - an inexact science at best,
especially with small batches. So I ordered pumps from Raka, and have had no
further problems. Their pumps work perfectly even though they look identical
to West's. I think West resin is thicker, so the pump recoil can't suck it
up fast enough to fill the chamber completely, even with warmed resin, so on
the next stroke it spits air - aside from screwing up the ratio, it's a real
eye hazard! Holding the pump head to slow the recoil helps, but it still
spits some. So far I like Raka at least as much as West in every respect,
and I like the price a whole lot more.
Paul L.
bow transom of my Micro, first piece I built - the epoxy never set up hard,
and after leaving it over the furnace for 2 weeks and still being able to
get a good fingerprint in the fillets, I finally tossed it in the scrap bin
and built another one. I am always very careful with the stirring, so
suspected ratio problems. I've used ~30 gallons of West epoxy with pumps,
had alot of problems with their bigger pumps spitting air bubbles so was
trying to measure the Raka using cups - an inexact science at best,
especially with small batches. So I ordered pumps from Raka, and have had no
further problems. Their pumps work perfectly even though they look identical
to West's. I think West resin is thicker, so the pump recoil can't suck it
up fast enough to fill the chamber completely, even with warmed resin, so on
the next stroke it spits air - aside from screwing up the ratio, it's a real
eye hazard! Holding the pump head to slow the recoil helps, but it still
spits some. So far I like Raka at least as much as West in every respect,
and I like the price a whole lot more.
Paul L.
> > (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
> > mixing the living hell out of it!)
The first mistake I ever made with mixing epoxy and hardener was
confusing the mixing ratios. As a novice I was not aware that the
pumps were calibrated for one pump each to achieve the desired ratio.
I was using 5:1 WEST Epoxy and proceeded to pump the resin 5 times
and the hardener 1 time. When the mixture hadn't cured after 2 days
(i think it actually turned less hard than when i first mixed it) I
took it upon myself to read the instructions. That was expensive
lesson given the retail price of WEST System. Thankfully, I was only
building butt joints and managed to get over this small learning
curve with minimal damage...
Tom
confusing the mixing ratios. As a novice I was not aware that the
pumps were calibrated for one pump each to achieve the desired ratio.
I was using 5:1 WEST Epoxy and proceeded to pump the resin 5 times
and the hardener 1 time. When the mixture hadn't cured after 2 days
(i think it actually turned less hard than when i first mixed it) I
took it upon myself to read the instructions. That was expensive
lesson given the retail price of WEST System. Thankfully, I was only
building butt joints and managed to get over this small learning
curve with minimal damage...
Tom
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> > -- Sue --
> > (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
> > mixing the living hell out of it!)
>
> I've heard this before so I must be living right. I use pumps that
are
> metered for a 2:1 ratio. I check them once a week for accuracy. I
use the
> blue plastic drink cups, pump in the epoxy and hardener, stir and
scrap
> around with a toungue depressor stick for a about 30 seconds (on a
3 oz.
> batch) and start brushing. In almost 25 gallons of RAKA epoxy, I
have yet
> had a problem.
>
> I suspect my day of punishment is coming but so far so good.
>
> Jeff
> -- Sue --I've heard this before so I must be living right. I use pumps that are
> (and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
> mixing the living hell out of it!)
metered for a 2:1 ratio. I check them once a week for accuracy. I use the
blue plastic drink cups, pump in the epoxy and hardener, stir and scrap
around with a toungue depressor stick for a about 30 seconds (on a 3 oz.
batch) and start brushing. In almost 25 gallons of RAKA epoxy, I have yet
had a problem.
I suspect my day of punishment is coming but so far so good.
Jeff
I finally had some time this weekend to work on the gull to try
to get it in the water. Unfortunately, it looks like I have some
repair work to do before I can proceed. :-( In the three or four
weeks that the boat had been sitting around in my garage waiting
to be completed, the butt block on the port side failed and
started to come apart. Also, I discovered major sections of the
top layer of chine tape where the epoxy hadn't cured, which were
still a sticky mess. In one part, the tape peels right off.
I've posted photos on Bolger2 in the "Epoxy Failure" section of
the "Gloucester Gull" album under "Bolger Boats" in the Photos
area, for any who are interested.
So, I guess my project for the evening is to clean out the inside
of the boat with vinegar, peel out any remaining uncured tape,
and repair the port butt with clamps, screws, and epoxy. Sigh.
Hopefully, I'll get the thing in the water before they close the
Erie Canal for the winter....
-- Sue --
(and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
mixing the living hell out of it!)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
to get it in the water. Unfortunately, it looks like I have some
repair work to do before I can proceed. :-( In the three or four
weeks that the boat had been sitting around in my garage waiting
to be completed, the butt block on the port side failed and
started to come apart. Also, I discovered major sections of the
top layer of chine tape where the epoxy hadn't cured, which were
still a sticky mess. In one part, the tape peels right off.
I've posted photos on Bolger2 in the "Epoxy Failure" section of
the "Gloucester Gull" album under "Bolger Boats" in the Photos
area, for any who are interested.
So, I guess my project for the evening is to clean out the inside
of the boat with vinegar, peel out any remaining uncured tape,
and repair the port butt with clamps, screws, and epoxy. Sigh.
Hopefully, I'll get the thing in the water before they close the
Erie Canal for the winter....
-- Sue --
(and if you use Raka, be absolutely double secret paranoid about
mixing the living hell out of it!)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>