Re: Glassing the Hull -- A Question
I generaly agree with Jamie. Only point would be that Ted's book
came out before the WEST 207, S3, and MAS sheathing epoxies. These
products may not require squeeges sometimes nap rollers (just like
the pros on GRP) work better. Having a squeege in hand in case that
proves untrue, is a reasonable course. Using a roller can be a real
time saver when you are not going for the prefect finish Ted gets on
his canoes. An embeded fiber off the roller in a boat that gets
painted, does not mater, but it can really speed up sheathing. I
should add that Ted uses the technique Jamie describes, even with the
new epoxies, but again, I think that is because of the different
standard that applies with a clear finish.
I also like one WEST trick moreso that using a squeegee to tip off
follow up coats. It involves cutting a 3" foam roller lengthwise
into three 120 degree pieces. WEST suggested getting a piece of
wood, and cutting an angle slot in it to grip the segment of roller
cover, and dragging it like a window squeege over the wet epoxy, as a
tip off tool. I like using a 6" vice grip as a handle. I think this
is the best tool of any I have tried for tipping off. Sometimes, you
can use the edge that was in the pliers for a subsequent coat, and
sometimes it is too mangled.
Don't get me wrong, I have done most of my sheathing with thicker
epoxies and an auto body squeegee, but these techniques can be useful
alternatives.
came out before the WEST 207, S3, and MAS sheathing epoxies. These
products may not require squeeges sometimes nap rollers (just like
the pros on GRP) work better. Having a squeege in hand in case that
proves untrue, is a reasonable course. Using a roller can be a real
time saver when you are not going for the prefect finish Ted gets on
his canoes. An embeded fiber off the roller in a boat that gets
painted, does not mater, but it can really speed up sheathing. I
should add that Ted uses the technique Jamie describes, even with the
new epoxies, but again, I think that is because of the different
standard that applies with a clear finish.
I also like one WEST trick moreso that using a squeegee to tip off
follow up coats. It involves cutting a 3" foam roller lengthwise
into three 120 degree pieces. WEST suggested getting a piece of
wood, and cutting an angle slot in it to grip the segment of roller
cover, and dragging it like a window squeege over the wet epoxy, as a
tip off tool. I like using a 6" vice grip as a handle. I think this
is the best tool of any I have tried for tipping off. Sometimes, you
can use the edge that was in the pliers for a subsequent coat, and
sometimes it is too mangled.
Don't get me wrong, I have done most of my sheathing with thicker
epoxies and an auto body squeegee, but these techniques can be useful
alternatives.
> to lift up behind it, and it's harder to get a good finish. Thethe
> plastic squeegees for home autobody work are good, and the hardened
> epoxy will pop off so they can be re-used. A good book to read is
> Ted Moore's Canoe Craft. In it, he recommends wetting the cloth,
> waiting for a while, then squeegeeing excess resin off. This is
> key! By doing this, you will avoid drools and runs that wouldthe
> otherwise need a ton of sanding. Check back a time or two before
> epoxy hardens to make sure no runs are forming.the
>
> Doing it this way will take 3 applications of straight epoxy to wet
> out and fill the weave (for 6 oz cloth). I used a WEST System foam
> roller on the subsequent coats, smoothing out the epoxy after with
> the squeegee. Moore recommends doing all coats close together so
> bond is better, but since I was working in cooler temperatures,this
> wasn't practical. Instead, I washed (the hull, that is) betweenusing
> coats, and sanded lightly. I may have used a light fourth coat as
> well.
>
> You can also fill the weave with a slightly thickened mixture,
> a wide drywall knife. However, I had only limited success withthis
> as it wasn't very warm, and the mixture resisted when I tried toend.
> spread it -- I decided the unthickened epoxy was less work in the
>
> If you've faired the tape edges, and the hull, before glassing, and
> you take care with the epoxy, then smoothing and fairing after
> glassing will be much less work than you might think.
>
> Jamie Orr
>
My two bits...
Do it. Glassing will give you a longer lasting hull, peace of mind,
and a good workout on the sanding board. Despite that last item, you
won't regret it.
When I glassed my boat, I was able to do a lot of the bull-work with
a 5" orbital sander and 60 grit disks. The key, I found, was to be
careful not to put on too much epoxy at one time. I put the cloth on
dry (a 60" wide piece from keel to each gunwale) using masking tape
to hold it in place. (Push pins also work, and won't try to pull the
cloth out of shape when you remove them, the way tape might.)
I spread the epoxy with a squeegee. Using a roller causes the cloth
to lift up behind it, and it's harder to get a good finish. The
plastic squeegees for home autobody work are good, and the hardened
epoxy will pop off so they can be re-used. A good book to read is
Ted Moore's Canoe Craft. In it, he recommends wetting the cloth,
waiting for a while, then squeegeeing excess resin off. This is the
key! By doing this, you will avoid drools and runs that would
otherwise need a ton of sanding. Check back a time or two before the
epoxy hardens to make sure no runs are forming.
Doing it this way will take 3 applications of straight epoxy to wet
out and fill the weave (for 6 oz cloth). I used a WEST System foam
roller on the subsequent coats, smoothing out the epoxy after with
the squeegee. Moore recommends doing all coats close together so the
bond is better, but since I was working in cooler temperatures, this
wasn't practical. Instead, I washed (the hull, that is) between
coats, and sanded lightly. I may have used a light fourth coat as
well.
You can also fill the weave with a slightly thickened mixture, using
a wide drywall knife. However, I had only limited success with this
as it wasn't very warm, and the mixture resisted when I tried to
spread it -- I decided the unthickened epoxy was less work in the end.
If you've faired the tape edges, and the hull, before glassing, and
you take care with the epoxy, then smoothing and fairing after
glassing will be much less work than you might think.
Jamie Orr
Do it. Glassing will give you a longer lasting hull, peace of mind,
and a good workout on the sanding board. Despite that last item, you
won't regret it.
When I glassed my boat, I was able to do a lot of the bull-work with
a 5" orbital sander and 60 grit disks. The key, I found, was to be
careful not to put on too much epoxy at one time. I put the cloth on
dry (a 60" wide piece from keel to each gunwale) using masking tape
to hold it in place. (Push pins also work, and won't try to pull the
cloth out of shape when you remove them, the way tape might.)
I spread the epoxy with a squeegee. Using a roller causes the cloth
to lift up behind it, and it's harder to get a good finish. The
plastic squeegees for home autobody work are good, and the hardened
epoxy will pop off so they can be re-used. A good book to read is
Ted Moore's Canoe Craft. In it, he recommends wetting the cloth,
waiting for a while, then squeegeeing excess resin off. This is the
key! By doing this, you will avoid drools and runs that would
otherwise need a ton of sanding. Check back a time or two before the
epoxy hardens to make sure no runs are forming.
Doing it this way will take 3 applications of straight epoxy to wet
out and fill the weave (for 6 oz cloth). I used a WEST System foam
roller on the subsequent coats, smoothing out the epoxy after with
the squeegee. Moore recommends doing all coats close together so the
bond is better, but since I was working in cooler temperatures, this
wasn't practical. Instead, I washed (the hull, that is) between
coats, and sanded lightly. I may have used a light fourth coat as
well.
You can also fill the weave with a slightly thickened mixture, using
a wide drywall knife. However, I had only limited success with this
as it wasn't very warm, and the mixture resisted when I tried to
spread it -- I decided the unthickened epoxy was less work in the end.
If you've faired the tape edges, and the hull, before glassing, and
you take care with the epoxy, then smoothing and fairing after
glassing will be much less work than you might think.
Jamie Orr
--- In bolger@y..., "pseudodion42" <pseudodion3@a...> wrote:
> Hello, All. I have the Dobler's exterior seams taped and am about
to
> turn the boat over to tape the inside seams. Before doing that,
> however, I decided to sand the outer seams and grind the tape edges
> down. It took me 8 hours! To that point, I had been
> contemplating "glassing" the boat to the sheer line. Who here knows
> the pros/cons of such an enterprise and would like to give me their
2
> cents worth? I would appreciate it.
>
> Dennis
Yeah, what Bruce said. A "Stanley Sureform" is what you want. Use it
when the resin is still soft, but no longer sticky. Works great. Much
better than sanding when the the lumps and bumps have cured rock hard.
I nice fresh single edge razor is good for cleaning thing up too. If
it's good and sharp it will go through resin and glass. Great for
taking down fabric goobers. The surfboard shaper who used to live
nextdoor used to buy them by the gross.
-D
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
when the resin is still soft, but no longer sticky. Works great. Much
better than sanding when the the lumps and bumps have cured rock hard.
I nice fresh single edge razor is good for cleaning thing up too. If
it's good and sharp it will go through resin and glass. Great for
taking down fabric goobers. The surfboard shaper who used to live
nextdoor used to buy them by the gross.
-D
>David,C.E.P.
>
>What's surfform? I'm getting ready to glass my Cartopper and I
>welcome anything that reduced the agony of sanding.
>
>Kellan
>
>
>>
>> Also, at at slightly greener state surfform is great for taking
>down
>> bumps and humps very quickly. Almost like using the tool on hard
>wax.
>> Definitely beats grinding them down later!
>>
>> YIBB,
>>
>> David
>>
>> C.E.P.
>> 415 W.46th Street
>> New York, New York 10036
>>http://www.crumblingempire.com
>> Mobile (646) 325-8325
>> Office (212) 247-0296
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
It's a "Stanley Sureform", a flat wood rasp with replaceable blades.
You can get them at Home Depot, etc and most wood tool or auto tool
sellers.
You can get them at Home Depot, etc and most wood tool or auto tool
sellers.
David,
What's surfform? I'm getting ready to glass my Cartopper and I
welcome anything that reduced the agony of sanding.
Kellan
What's surfform? I'm getting ready to glass my Cartopper and I
welcome anything that reduced the agony of sanding.
Kellan
>down
> Also, at at slightly greener state surfform is great for taking
> bumps and humps very quickly. Almost like using the tool on hardwax.
> Definitely beats grinding them down later!
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296
, the
given to how much bending (and I guess in what direction) will
occur. Sometimes those knots and other issues are severe enough to
cause breaks or unfairness. Also, unless you are using quite heavy
glass, the likelyhood is the knots, however filled, will print
through the fabric over time.
I have had both these things happen. Perhaps it was over-optimistic
of me to make a tortured plywood boat out of 4mm plywood doorskins.
> rationale was that the exterior is (1) easier to work on; (2) willget
> slobbered with fairing compound; and (3) covered with glass andpaint anyway.
> This seemed to make sense to me. Working on the inside of a hullseems (1)
> slower; (2) more difficult; and (3) less rewarding to me than doinga spiffy
> job on the topsides.I have done that, and I think it can work, consideration has to be
>
>
given to how much bending (and I guess in what direction) will
occur. Sometimes those knots and other issues are severe enough to
cause breaks or unfairness. Also, unless you are using quite heavy
glass, the likelyhood is the knots, however filled, will print
through the fabric over time.
I have had both these things happen. Perhaps it was over-optimistic
of me to make a tortured plywood boat out of 4mm plywood doorskins.
In a message dated 7/22/02 5:35:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
lincolnr@...writes:
on the outside, with the "A" side inboards. Whatever the source, the
rationale was that the exterior is (1) easier to work on; (2) will get
slobbered with fairing compound; and (3) covered with glass and paint anyway.
This seemed to make sense to me. Working on the inside of a hull seems (1)
slower; (2) more difficult; and (3) less rewarding to me than doing a spiffy
job on the topsides.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lincolnr@...writes:
> Worthwhile to get nice wood as filling the knotholes onI think someone on this group once recommended using the "C" side of "AC" ply
> the backside is tedious.
>
on the outside, with the "A" side inboards. Whatever the source, the
rationale was that the exterior is (1) easier to work on; (2) will get
slobbered with fairing compound; and (3) covered with glass and paint anyway.
This seemed to make sense to me. Working on the inside of a hull seems (1)
slower; (2) more difficult; and (3) less rewarding to me than doing a spiffy
job on the topsides.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 7/22/02 5:35:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
lincolnr@...writes:
canoe, the greatest surface area, by far, was vertical. The saving grace was
that I was able to get cloth wide enough to cover the boat from gunwale to
gunwale in a single piece of cloth set on the bias. That way the cloth had no
tendency to move out of position once the center section had been somewhat
stuck down and I worked in the resin more-or-less symetrically on each side.
The Dobler is too wide for this, but I think that the two sides could be
covered readily enough in no more than 2 sessions each. Given pot-life of
epoxy and competing demands on one's time, this may not be a hardshipl
With polyester or West epoxy, I don't think that run-off of resin is a
serious problem. The main problem is to avoid having the stretchy cloth sag
down the vertical surfaces when squeeging the resin into the cloth. It might
be possible to do it in just one session, if 48" width cloth is available,
but the bow might give trouble. In doing the topsides from lower chine to
sheer in one swell foop, it would probably be advisable to dry-fit the cloth
beforehand, leaving a generous "allowance" (i.e. excess cloth - I know there
is a very nice technical term for this, but it elludes me at the moment.)
(The unwetted fabric will trim with whatever scissors you started ruining by
cutting the fabric in the first place; the wetted excess will trim up nicely
enough with a utility knife while the resin is still "green")
The difficulty with dry-fitting is the readiness of the cloth to
stretch out of shape. Rolling and un-rolling it from suitable tubes, and the
assistance of docile and obedient assistants would ease the task.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lincolnr@...writes:
> Glassing is neatest when you can make the area you're working onHorizontal is undoubtedly the best, but hardly essential. When I covered my
> horizontal or nearly so. Of course if you're trying to do most of the
> hull like this you will probably have to have 20 sessions with the
> boat propped up at funny angles, so I guess it's too late.
canoe, the greatest surface area, by far, was vertical. The saving grace was
that I was able to get cloth wide enough to cover the boat from gunwale to
gunwale in a single piece of cloth set on the bias. That way the cloth had no
tendency to move out of position once the center section had been somewhat
stuck down and I worked in the resin more-or-less symetrically on each side.
The Dobler is too wide for this, but I think that the two sides could be
covered readily enough in no more than 2 sessions each. Given pot-life of
epoxy and competing demands on one's time, this may not be a hardshipl
With polyester or West epoxy, I don't think that run-off of resin is a
serious problem. The main problem is to avoid having the stretchy cloth sag
down the vertical surfaces when squeeging the resin into the cloth. It might
be possible to do it in just one session, if 48" width cloth is available,
but the bow might give trouble. In doing the topsides from lower chine to
sheer in one swell foop, it would probably be advisable to dry-fit the cloth
beforehand, leaving a generous "allowance" (i.e. excess cloth - I know there
is a very nice technical term for this, but it elludes me at the moment.)
(The unwetted fabric will trim with whatever scissors you started ruining by
cutting the fabric in the first place; the wetted excess will trim up nicely
enough with a utility knife while the resin is still "green")
The difficulty with dry-fitting is the readiness of the cloth to
stretch out of shape. Rolling and un-rolling it from suitable tubes, and the
assistance of docile and obedient assistants would ease the task.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>My experience with West epoxy is that if you need to sand the un-thickenedMy experience with polyester resin, as well as West and Raka epoxies
>stuff, its best to give it several days to really cure hard, keep the sander
>moving over a large area, be profligate with sandpaper usage and vacuum up
>the dust frequently and often. It still isn't any fun, IMHO.
is a little different.
There's a point when the resin is not fully cured, but cured enough
that it doesn't clog sandpaper. It sands much, much faster at this
point then once it's fully cured. If you catch it right, it's almost
fun.
Also, at at slightly greener state surfform is great for taking down
bumps and humps very quickly. Almost like using the tool on hard wax.
Definitely beats grinding them down later!
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
In a message dated 7/22/02 2:42:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
pseudodion3@...writes:
Have you posted constructions pics anywhere? Care to provide a short
precis of you construction technique? Have you considered writing a
construction manual? I found my set of plans readily enough, but can't put my
hands on Firth-Jones' rather cursory construction instructions readily. (i.e.
I evidently filed them where they will never be found when wanted.) (I don't
think I was disappointed enough to "round-file" the instructions, but
evidently I did the functional equivalent.)
Did you build on a strongback? Did you build from the bottom-up or
bottom-down, or some other sequence? How did you handle fitting the
"cheaters" into the topsides? I remember inferring that the bottom, lower
sides and transom would need to be assembled first, to control the shape of
the topsides. Was I correct?
8 hrs. seems a lot of time to smooth up the tape edges. Was this with
a power sander? 8 hours of hand wet-sanding a canoe hull between coats of
paint has a certain mindless, calming quality to it. 8 hrs. of running a
power sander just to do "one job" strikes me as a real ordeal, no matter how
broken up.
No experience here, and too late to be of any use, but I think I would
be inclined to slop (ooops! trowel!) on some thickened "fairing" epoxy mix on
like a plasterer, and sand that, rather than try to cut back the tape evenly.
My experience with West epoxy is that if you need to sand the un-thickened
stuff, its best to give it several days to really cure hard, keep the sander
moving over a large area, be profligate with sandpaper usage and vacuum up
the dust frequently and often. It still isn't any fun, IMHO.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pseudodion3@...writes:
> Hello, All. I have the Dobler's exterior seams taped and am about toHi, Dennis:
> turn the boat over to tape the inside seams.
Have you posted constructions pics anywhere? Care to provide a short
precis of you construction technique? Have you considered writing a
construction manual? I found my set of plans readily enough, but can't put my
hands on Firth-Jones' rather cursory construction instructions readily. (i.e.
I evidently filed them where they will never be found when wanted.) (I don't
think I was disappointed enough to "round-file" the instructions, but
evidently I did the functional equivalent.)
Did you build on a strongback? Did you build from the bottom-up or
bottom-down, or some other sequence? How did you handle fitting the
"cheaters" into the topsides? I remember inferring that the bottom, lower
sides and transom would need to be assembled first, to control the shape of
the topsides. Was I correct?
8 hrs. seems a lot of time to smooth up the tape edges. Was this with
a power sander? 8 hours of hand wet-sanding a canoe hull between coats of
paint has a certain mindless, calming quality to it. 8 hrs. of running a
power sander just to do "one job" strikes me as a real ordeal, no matter how
broken up.
No experience here, and too late to be of any use, but I think I would
be inclined to slop (ooops! trowel!) on some thickened "fairing" epoxy mix on
like a plasterer, and sand that, rather than try to cut back the tape evenly.
My experience with West epoxy is that if you need to sand the un-thickened
stuff, its best to give it several days to really cure hard, keep the sander
moving over a large area, be profligate with sandpaper usage and vacuum up
the dust frequently and often. It still isn't any fun, IMHO.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Glassing is neatest when you can make the area you're working on
horizontal or nearly so. Of course if you're trying to do most of the
hull like this you will probably have to have 20 sessions with the
boat propped up at funny angles, so I guess it's too late.
Might be less frustrating, though. Another trick is to clean up with
some kind of sharp scraper blade (I've been using a blade out of a
plane, and also cabinet scrapers) while the epoxy is still a bit soft,
maybe the next day, instead of days later when it will be like a rock.
Of course if you're going to sand wait until it is quite hard or you
will have another kind or mess. I also wonder what would happen if you
squeegeed some 3 mil polyethylene over the whole mess while it's still
pretty wet?
I think if I do another boat I may glass the plywood flat on sawhorses
beforehand. Maybe with real light glass and grind the edges a little
for an inch at the edges so the joints will be strong. Or maybe do it
with peel ply at the edges, but then I'd have to know where the edges
were ahead of time. Maybe mark the wood and then glass and then put on
the peel ply in strips. Could cover all with peel ply but it's kind
of expensive. Worthwhile to get nice wood as filling the knotholes on
the backside is tedious.
horizontal or nearly so. Of course if you're trying to do most of the
hull like this you will probably have to have 20 sessions with the
boat propped up at funny angles, so I guess it's too late.
Might be less frustrating, though. Another trick is to clean up with
some kind of sharp scraper blade (I've been using a blade out of a
plane, and also cabinet scrapers) while the epoxy is still a bit soft,
maybe the next day, instead of days later when it will be like a rock.
Of course if you're going to sand wait until it is quite hard or you
will have another kind or mess. I also wonder what would happen if you
squeegeed some 3 mil polyethylene over the whole mess while it's still
pretty wet?
I think if I do another boat I may glass the plywood flat on sawhorses
beforehand. Maybe with real light glass and grind the edges a little
for an inch at the edges so the joints will be strong. Or maybe do it
with peel ply at the edges, but then I'd have to know where the edges
were ahead of time. Maybe mark the wood and then glass and then put on
the peel ply in strips. Could cover all with peel ply but it's kind
of expensive. Worthwhile to get nice wood as filling the knotholes on
the backside is tedious.
--- In bolger@y..., "pseudodion42" <pseudodion3@a...> wrote:
> Hello, All. I have the Dobler's exterior seams taped and am about to
> turn the boat over to tape the inside seams. Before doing that,
> however, I decided to sand the outer seams and grind the tape edges
> down. It took me 8 hours! To that point, I had been
> contemplating "glassing" the boat to the sheer line. Who here knows
> the pros/cons of such an enterprise and would like to give me their
2
> cents worth? I would appreciate it.
>
> Dennis
To that point, I had been
maintenance finish. No checking, peeling. You don't have to use heavy
glass either -- 3.8 will do the trick. Glass to the sheer, you won't
regret it.
I'll be glassing my gull from sheer to sheer presently.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
>contemplating "glassing" the boat to the sheer line. Who here knowsPorch paint over glass/epoxy over plywood gives a nearly no
>the pros/cons of such an enterprise and would like to give me their 2
>cents worth? I would appreciate it.
maintenance finish. No checking, peeling. You don't have to use heavy
glass either -- 3.8 will do the trick. Glass to the sheer, you won't
regret it.
I'll be glassing my gull from sheer to sheer presently.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
Hello, All. I have the Dobler's exterior seams taped and am about to
turn the boat over to tape the inside seams. Before doing that,
however, I decided to sand the outer seams and grind the tape edges
down. It took me 8 hours! To that point, I had been
contemplating "glassing" the boat to the sheer line. Who here knows
the pros/cons of such an enterprise and would like to give me their 2
cents worth? I would appreciate it.
Dennis
turn the boat over to tape the inside seams. Before doing that,
however, I decided to sand the outer seams and grind the tape edges
down. It took me 8 hours! To that point, I had been
contemplating "glassing" the boat to the sheer line. Who here knows
the pros/cons of such an enterprise and would like to give me their 2
cents worth? I would appreciate it.
Dennis