Re: [bolger] plans
If you have a design or designs that you want to build but would like a
head start taking over a partially built boat just ask here...
Every once and a while one is offered, I gave away a slightly damage
"Bee" last year. I bet there are more incomplete boats looking for good
homes than anyone would care to admit...
Rick
frboblynn@...wrote:
head start taking over a partially built boat just ask here...
Every once and a while one is offered, I gave away a slightly damage
"Bee" last year. I bet there are more incomplete boats looking for good
homes than anyone would care to admit...
Rick
frboblynn@...wrote:
>
> Where would one learn of such partially completed projects that are "for
> sale"?
>
to the best of my knowledge, Chappelle's designs are part of the
Smithsonian collection and are available to the public. I purchased
his "Camp Skiff" from the Smithsonian. "Skiff" is the progenitor of
the "RedWing" designs. I bought this drawing a long time ago but it
seems to me that at the time I was given to believe that it was in the
public domain and I was only paying Smithsonian the cost of printing
mailing and and a dollar or so extra and yes I could build it. I've
heard frequent reference to boats built from Chappelles
"Boatbuilding". Certainly plans in the "How to build 20 Boats" series
and others of that sort are meant to be built by the readers of the
magazine and hundreds or thousands were. Of course the basic question
of this thread can't be answered definitively because there are just
too many exceptions to any "rule".
Bob Chamberland
Smithsonian collection and are available to the public. I purchased
his "Camp Skiff" from the Smithsonian. "Skiff" is the progenitor of
the "RedWing" designs. I bought this drawing a long time ago but it
seems to me that at the time I was given to believe that it was in the
public domain and I was only paying Smithsonian the cost of printing
mailing and and a dollar or so extra and yes I could build it. I've
heard frequent reference to boats built from Chappelles
"Boatbuilding". Certainly plans in the "How to build 20 Boats" series
and others of that sort are meant to be built by the readers of the
magazine and hundreds or thousands were. Of course the basic question
of this thread can't be answered definitively because there are just
too many exceptions to any "rule".
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> I had a couple of additional thoughts after my last post.
>
>
> With respect to Chapelle in particular, there are at least two cases.
> First, he made curitorial-type drawings of existing boats. He did a
> lot of these while working for the Smithsonian, and may appear in
> books. Second, he made original designs. I presume these can be
> purchased today, but I don't know from whom. Many boats have been
> built from plans of the first type, and I can't remember anyone
> holding that some sort of royalty or license should be paid, beyond,
> perhaps the cost of the book.
>
> Second, there could be a grey area, but I think the cost of the plan
> counts for something. If you pay $300 for a couple of pieces of
> paper, then you are paying for something more than the paper. If you
> pay $5, you are not.
>
> Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
Chapelle did following Adney's death, when organizing his work into
the book you mention. I sure he would be smiling know that someone
was bringing his work back to life. I can't find my copy but I would
suggest it would mentione in it if the material was not allowed to be
used to build from.
Great article written in WB #169 about the current state of his model
collection and papers.
Also it would seem that a lot of the older boat plans were public
domain as they were the results of a developmental progression over
many years and there were minor design differences across time and
areas where they were used. Some people have tried to establish
ownership to some of these plans and copywrite them. but the
enforcment seems to be a real challenge.
There were several ongoing court cases in Canada about the ownership
of the "Chestnut Prospector" design. Some people purchased the molds
from the company when it's assets were dispured after going bankrupt.
But in reality the design had been copied over and over again by
Chestnut, from other hull designs. So the only thing that could be
copywritten was the name "Chestnut."
Cheers, Nels
> Thanks, Peter...built
>
> I haven't lost sleep over it, just curious. I figure the eskimo who
> the original of my boat has been dead for at least 100 years. Myonly
> concern was about the museum. And just to come full circle, it wastaken
> straight out of a book I purchased, though not a Payson book...What Edwin Tappan Adney did was a labor of love as was what Howard
>
> Paul L.
>
>
Chapelle did following Adney's death, when organizing his work into
the book you mention. I sure he would be smiling know that someone
was bringing his work back to life. I can't find my copy but I would
suggest it would mentione in it if the material was not allowed to be
used to build from.
Great article written in WB #169 about the current state of his model
collection and papers.
Also it would seem that a lot of the older boat plans were public
domain as they were the results of a developmental progression over
many years and there were minor design differences across time and
areas where they were used. Some people have tried to establish
ownership to some of these plans and copywrite them. but the
enforcment seems to be a real challenge.
There were several ongoing court cases in Canada about the ownership
of the "Chestnut Prospector" design. Some people purchased the molds
from the company when it's assets were dispured after going bankrupt.
But in reality the design had been copied over and over again by
Chestnut, from other hull designs. So the only thing that could be
copywritten was the name "Chestnut."
Cheers, Nels
I had a couple of additional thoughts after my last post.
With respect to Chapelle in particular, there are at least two cases.
First, he made curitorial-type drawings of existing boats. He did a
lot of these while working for the Smithsonian, and may appear in
books. Second, he made original designs. I presume these can be
purchased today, but I don't know from whom. Many boats have been
built from plans of the first type, and I can't remember anyone
holding that some sort of royalty or license should be paid, beyond,
perhaps the cost of the book.
Second, there could be a grey area, but I think the cost of the plan
counts for something. If you pay $300 for a couple of pieces of
paper, then you are paying for something more than the paper. If you
pay $5, you are not.
Peter
With respect to Chapelle in particular, there are at least two cases.
First, he made curitorial-type drawings of existing boats. He did a
lot of these while working for the Smithsonian, and may appear in
books. Second, he made original designs. I presume these can be
purchased today, but I don't know from whom. Many boats have been
built from plans of the first type, and I can't remember anyone
holding that some sort of royalty or license should be paid, beyond,
perhaps the cost of the book.
Second, there could be a grey area, but I think the cost of the plan
counts for something. If you pay $300 for a couple of pieces of
paper, then you are paying for something more than the paper. If you
pay $5, you are not.
Peter
Thanks, Peter...
I haven't lost sleep over it, just curious. I figure the eskimo who built
the original of my boat has been dead for at least 100 years. My only
concern was about the museum. And just to come full circle, it was taken
straight out of a book I purchased, though not a Payson book...
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From: pvanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
I haven't lost sleep over it, just curious. I figure the eskimo who built
the original of my boat has been dead for at least 100 years. My only
concern was about the museum. And just to come full circle, it was taken
straight out of a book I purchased, though not a Payson book...
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From: pvanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
> Museums produce curatorial plans that show the present
> condition of boats in their collections, and there are all those
> plates in Howard Chapelle's books.
> Museums produce curatorial plans that show the presentNot with any authority. Again, I think there are different cases. For
> condition of boats in their collections, and there are all those
> plates in Howard Chapelle's books.
> Peter, could you please elaborate
> further on this last point?
example, Mystic Seaport has a Lightning in their collection, but
whoever owns the copyright (probably S&S, possibly the Lightning
class) is someone else. (I don't know if they have curatorial plans
that differ from the S&S plans.) If the builder of the boat is still
living (personally or corporately), the museum may not own the rights
to license. On the other hand, if it's a 100 old boat of uncertain
origin, the "design" is effectively in the public domain, but the
copyright of the plans would rest with the museum. I know that Mystic
sells some plans with a disclaimer saying, in effect, "We have a boat
like this, but, who knows, maybe it's not a good boat. You're on your
own."
An informed legal opinion would be of interest with respect to the
curatorial plans in museum collections, and to plans of designers who
are dead. The "knowlege transfer" paradigm would not seem to apply,
but I don't know how important that is to the legal situation.
Peter
Peter, you seem so knowledgeable on the topic, could you please elaborate
further on this last point? 10 years ago I built a kayak based on curatorial
plans published in Adney and Chapelle's 'The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of
North America', of a boat in the Peabody Museum. I'm wondering how many
rules I broke, if any...
thanks,
Paul L.
Museums produce curatorial plans that show the present
condition of boats in their collections, and there are all those
plates in Howard Chapelle's books. That's a while different category.
Peter
further on this last point? 10 years ago I built a kayak based on curatorial
plans published in Adney and Chapelle's 'The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of
North America', of a boat in the Peabody Museum. I'm wondering how many
rules I broke, if any...
thanks,
Paul L.
Museums produce curatorial plans that show the present
condition of boats in their collections, and there are all those
plates in Howard Chapelle's books. That's a while different category.
Peter
> > And what is the straight storyPlans are sold with different agreements. Buying a set of plans from
> > about "rights to
> > build"?
a designer is different than buying plans from a publisher who is
basically just selling a book or pretty printed paper.
My understanding is that when you buy plans from a designer you are
basically buying his permission (license) to use his intellectual
property for the purpose of building one boat. The printed plans are
a convenient means for conveying information from the designer to
you, but are not actually the product. This works both ways. You are
not supposed to build more than one boat (without the designer's
agreement), and he responsible for all the info required for the
build, and failure to put it on the plans does not release him from
that responsibility.
If you buy plans in a book, or from some publisher who is not the
designer, without some specific agreement that you know about in
advance, you can use them however you want. Clearly the knowledge-
transfer paradigm described above does not hold, and equally, the
publisher could omit critical information (e.g. table of offsets)
that would made the plans unuseable if he wants to prevent them being
used (as is often done).
A specific agreement between seller and buyer takes precedence over
this standard understanding. For example, you can buy plans from
Mystic Seaport with or without permission to build.
One other note: not all plans are created for the purpose of new
construction. Museums produce curatorial plans that show the present
condition of boats in their collections, and there are all those
plates in Howard Chapelle's books. That's a while different category.
Peter
--- frboblynn@a*.com wrote:
here on the Bolger Group, and
it was 'free' for the picking
up.
ownership of 'intelectual property'
and 'copyright' as I understand it.
I think a huge loophole in the law is
that taking a design and modifying it
makes it a 'new' design.
> Bruce and list,I learned about my 'takeover'
> Where would one learn of
> such partially
> completed projects that
> are "for sale"?
here on the Bolger Group, and
it was 'free' for the picking
up.
> And what is the straight storyThe right flows from laws about
> about "rights to
> build"? If the designer says
> he does own any such rights,
> who does or is this some sort
> of myth?
ownership of 'intelectual property'
and 'copyright' as I understand it.
I think a huge loophole in the law is
that taking a design and modifying it
makes it a 'new' design.
>Bruce and list,Egads,
> Where would one learn of such partially completed projects that are "for
>sale"?
>And what is the straight story about "rights to build"? If the designer says
>he does
>own any such rights, who does or is this some sort of myth? Thanks for this
>and other helpful posts you make to this list.
> Best wishes,
> boblynn
>frboblynn@...
not this question again.
can SOMEONE please write up an FAQ, PLEASE?
The short answer:
unless stipulated otherwise the right to build one boat travels with the
plans until one boat has been built. That's not so tough is it?
No one can stop you from building from "used plans"or plans you buy at a
yard sale or plans in a book. However, building more than one copy of a
boat from the plans without asking the designer what he/she wants for
additional boats is sneaky mean and unbecoming the Gentlemen and Ladies who
populate this list.
Should you set yourself up as a builder for commercial sale and start
churning out June Bugs [insert name of boat] based on a set of plans you
bought umpteen years ago, the designer could take you to court. it's a lot
easier all around for people to be good Scouts about it.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 1/19/04 9:53:04 AM,bruce@...writes:
<< Another option, is to take over
a partially completed Bolger
project, assuming the rights
to build 'midway'. >>
Bruce and list,
Where would one learn of such partially completed projects that are "for
sale"?
And what is the straight story about "rights to build"? If the designer says
he does
own any such rights, who does or is this some sort of myth? Thanks for this
and other helpful posts you make to this list.
Best wishes,
boblynn
frboblynn@...
<< Another option, is to take over
a partially completed Bolger
project, assuming the rights
to build 'midway'. >>
Bruce and list,
Where would one learn of such partially completed projects that are "for
sale"?
And what is the straight story about "rights to build"? If the designer says
he does
own any such rights, who does or is this some sort of myth? Thanks for this
and other helpful posts you make to this list.
Best wishes,
boblynn
frboblynn@...
--- ismore1077 asked:
A subtlety, is that what I
am guessing you really want
to buy is the rights to build
a boat from the plans.
Some people [including the
designer] have written that
CSB doesn't own those rights
to sell.
Though, once in a while, people
who have previously purchased
the rights to build a Bolger
boat, but that have never
built the boat, resell those
'unbuilt' plans on the aftermarket.
[Such as EBay]. I bought some
AS-29 plans that way.
Another option, is to take over
a partially completed Bolger
project, assuming the rights
to build 'midway'. My Micro
Navigator project started 'for
free' that way.
If your list is down to a choice
between AS-29 and Micro Navigator,
[as these are two very different
boats], perhaps you have some soul-
searching to do to determine just
exactly why and what you want to
get out of this boat, before you
embark on a year or so of blood
sweat and tears/joy.
> Where do you buy plansDirectly from the designer.
> for the AS-29 and
> MicroNavigator? (neither
> advertised on CSB.)
A subtlety, is that what I
am guessing you really want
to buy is the rights to build
a boat from the plans.
Some people [including the
designer] have written that
CSB doesn't own those rights
to sell.
Though, once in a while, people
who have previously purchased
the rights to build a Bolger
boat, but that have never
built the boat, resell those
'unbuilt' plans on the aftermarket.
[Such as EBay]. I bought some
AS-29 plans that way.
Another option, is to take over
a partially completed Bolger
project, assuming the rights
to build 'midway'. My Micro
Navigator project started 'for
free' that way.
If your list is down to a choice
between AS-29 and Micro Navigator,
[as these are two very different
boats], perhaps you have some soul-
searching to do to determine just
exactly why and what you want to
get out of this boat, before you
embark on a year or so of blood
sweat and tears/joy.
ismore1077 wrote:
bottom of each post in this group:
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> Where do you buy plans for the AS-29 and MicroNavigator? (neitherThe contact details for Bolger and Friends appears at the
> advertised on CSB.)
bottom of each post in this group:
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
Where do you buy plans for the AS-29 and MicroNavigator? (neither
advertised on CSB.)
advertised on CSB.)
Mike,
Unfortunately there is no catalog or list of Bolger's over 600 designs.
Information about some of the more popular small craft designs is
scattered here and there among the FILES, PHOTOS, & BOOKMARKS pages
linked on the left side of this group's web page. If you can find any of
his books of designs via the web or in the library, there is a lot of
info in them.
However:
Your best source of information on any of Bolger's plans is:
Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc.
P.O.Box 1209
Gloucester, MA 01930
fax 978-282-1349 (They don't give out their voice number).
Let them know what sort of design you are looking for, and one of them
will probably be in touch with you in short order. They sometimes reply
to a fax inquiry by voice phone call, so be to include your number if
you fax or write. They don't use e-mail either.
They sell their plans direct.
Vince Chew
Unfortunately there is no catalog or list of Bolger's over 600 designs.
Information about some of the more popular small craft designs is
scattered here and there among the FILES, PHOTOS, & BOOKMARKS pages
linked on the left side of this group's web page. If you can find any of
his books of designs via the web or in the library, there is a lot of
info in them.
However:
Your best source of information on any of Bolger's plans is:
Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc.
P.O.Box 1209
Gloucester, MA 01930
fax 978-282-1349 (They don't give out their voice number).
Let them know what sort of design you are looking for, and one of them
will probably be in touch with you in short order. They sometimes reply
to a fax inquiry by voice phone call, so be to include your number if
you fax or write. They don't use e-mail either.
They sell their plans direct.
Vince Chew