Re: Plywood
http://wooduniversity.org/
--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales <frank_bales@y...> wrote:
>
> Could any of you recommend a web site that has information on the
different grades of plywood used (or useful) for boatbuilding. I'm
looking for something that would tell me the merits of one over the
other. I've searched, but can only find companies selling it, not
any real technical data. Thanks.
>
>
>
> FB
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales <frank_bales@y...> wrote:
looking for something that would tell me the merits of one over the
other. I've searched, but can only find companies selling it, not
any real technical data. Thanks.
There is another standard, but they don't sell it localy, so i can't
say. BS 1088 is pretty creamy stuff.
I have read all sorts of standards for american ply. It may be
covered in The Gougeons on boatbuilding. There was a good article in
Profesional Boatbuilder. The problem with that stuff is i have never
seen it for sale, so it doesn't help me much. It may meet all sorts
of standards, but in general you will have to glass D-fir unless the
topsheet is flitched veneer.
>different grades of plywood used (or useful) for boatbuilding. I'm
> Could any of you recommend a web site that has information on the
looking for something that would tell me the merits of one over the
other. I've searched, but can only find companies selling it, not
any real technical data. Thanks.
>That would be cool. BS 1088 is the threshold for tropical ply.
>
>
> FB
>
>
There is another standard, but they don't sell it localy, so i can't
say. BS 1088 is pretty creamy stuff.
I have read all sorts of standards for american ply. It may be
covered in The Gougeons on boatbuilding. There was a good article in
Profesional Boatbuilder. The problem with that stuff is i have never
seen it for sale, so it doesn't help me much. It may meet all sorts
of standards, but in general you will have to glass D-fir unless the
topsheet is flitched veneer.
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Could any of you recommend a web site that has information on the different grades of plywood used (or useful) for boatbuilding. I'm looking for something that would tell me the merits of one over the other. I've searched, but can only find companies selling it, not any real technical data. Thanks.
FB
---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
FB
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Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I visited Boulter recently. Just a hole in the wall with lousy
parking. Or at least that describes the part I saw. Maybe doesn't
matter if the wood is good, but I expected a much larger, fancier
place. They gave me a free sample of their luan to play with. Didn't
boil better than some others.
parking. Or at least that describes the part I saw. Maybe doesn't
matter if the wood is good, but I expected a much larger, fancier
place. They gave me a free sample of their luan to play with. Didn't
boil better than some others.
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
snip
> feret out local sources there aren't a million of them too. But it
> does sound at times like everyone either looks at Boulter plywood,
Hi John
I worked 4 years as an electronics tech in a US plant that makes 1/8"
pine/poplar veneer for plywood. The high speed equipment is designed
for 4'x 8' sheets only. You could get a single sheets of 8'x 40'x
1/8' easily. You would have to dry it youself. Plants overdry and
kill the properties of the wood anyway. I think could then use
Origami and or Kelsall's KSS.
Mat
I worked 4 years as an electronics tech in a US plant that makes 1/8"
pine/poplar veneer for plywood. The high speed equipment is designed
for 4'x 8' sheets only. You could get a single sheets of 8'x 40'x
1/8' easily. You would have to dry it youself. Plants overdry and
kill the properties of the wood anyway. I think could then use
Origami and or Kelsall's KSS.
Mat
The Navy has the best test for plywood. I want to test my Brick this
way. If it survives I'll buy a whole stack of the same plywood.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Shock%20test%20for%20hull/
John
way. If it survives I'll buy a whole stack of the same plywood.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Shock%20test%20for%20hull/
John
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
>
> > > when I made my tri. I just don't think HD is the place to
start
> to
> > > look.
> >
> > It varies wildly. We have a ply manufacturer here in Dallas,
down
> the
> > street from a HD. I went to them years ago to try to get some
good
> > 1/8" made for a canoe, and the guy made me some nice 16' sheets,
> sent
> > them over to HD, and I picked them up and paid for them there.
Six
> > months later when I went back he was gone, and the new foreman
was
> not
> > interested in hearing about it.
>
> Dallas seems like a big place, and I'm glade your getting the
> material you need. Here in Toronto (where generally we have much
less
> available stuff than in the US) there are hundreds of other places
to
> buy plywood, and there are probably at least five that are marine
> specialists. One good enough that the Ply for one of the big US
> Bolger projects from this group got ordered there. Toronto is not
a
> marine center, and I find it hard to believe that in the US if you
> feret out local sources there aren't a million of them too. But it
> does sound at times like everyone either looks at Boulter plywood,
or
> HD. Some of the places I deal with were around when I started
> building 20+ years ago, and I am still learning about them now...
>
>
>
>
> > > I think the deal is to avoid sanding almost altogether. <snip>
I
> > think about 90% of the
> > > sanding could be avoided.
> >
> > Well yeah... You still have to sand to paint, or to change
> something
> > you don't like, or to glue a new bit on. Peel ply is great, and
> I'm
> > all about not sanding if I don't have to, but sometimes you do
have
> > to.
>
> There is a huge difference between barking back, and sanding just a
> surface enough to get paint to hold.
>
> >
> > Kevin
I live not too far away from three plywood plants and a door
factory. The first person to mention larger than standard plywood
sheets to me was Greg Tatman the drift boat kit maker. He told me
that some plants will make whatever length and width you need to a
point. Shipping is the hard part. It is entirely possible to get 6'X
40'X 3/4" marine glue sheets but they are a logistic nightmare. I
imagine some enterprising person could make a good living selling and
transporting custom sized plywood to boat builders across the US. How
many of you guys would order plywood in sheets you didn't have to
splice?
I have a friend who works in one of our local plants, Columbia
Plywood. He showed me the cutters that size the huge sheets coming
from a 120 ton roller steam press. The cutters that cut the length
go across the moving plywood diagonally in order to make that
straight cut on the constantly moving line. They also can change to
any thickness or type glue with the press of a button. The glue comes
to the plant in huge trucks with 105,500 lbs GVW's with huge rubber
bags on top of flatbed trailers. When they empty the glue from the
bag they roll it up and load plywood for their return trip to
Portland, OR.
One of the plants makes a military spec plywood that is 1 1/8" and
it has two ply's of lead in it. They also use this in hospitals in
the nuclear medicine wings. I don't know how expensive the stuff is
but if you needed ballast in a flat bottomed boat this might be the
way to go. I know they make many more types of plywood but I have
never really made an effort to catalogue them since my first priority
is to my wife and the second is studying and building boats. I hope
this has given you fellow Bolgerites some food for thought.
John
factory. The first person to mention larger than standard plywood
sheets to me was Greg Tatman the drift boat kit maker. He told me
that some plants will make whatever length and width you need to a
point. Shipping is the hard part. It is entirely possible to get 6'X
40'X 3/4" marine glue sheets but they are a logistic nightmare. I
imagine some enterprising person could make a good living selling and
transporting custom sized plywood to boat builders across the US. How
many of you guys would order plywood in sheets you didn't have to
splice?
I have a friend who works in one of our local plants, Columbia
Plywood. He showed me the cutters that size the huge sheets coming
from a 120 ton roller steam press. The cutters that cut the length
go across the moving plywood diagonally in order to make that
straight cut on the constantly moving line. They also can change to
any thickness or type glue with the press of a button. The glue comes
to the plant in huge trucks with 105,500 lbs GVW's with huge rubber
bags on top of flatbed trailers. When they empty the glue from the
bag they roll it up and load plywood for their return trip to
Portland, OR.
One of the plants makes a military spec plywood that is 1 1/8" and
it has two ply's of lead in it. They also use this in hospitals in
the nuclear medicine wings. I don't know how expensive the stuff is
but if you needed ballast in a flat bottomed boat this might be the
way to go. I know they make many more types of plywood but I have
never really made an effort to catalogue them since my first priority
is to my wife and the second is studying and building boats. I hope
this has given you fellow Bolgerites some food for thought.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
>
> > > when I made my tri. I just don't think HD is the place to
start
> to
> > > look.
> >
> > It varies wildly. We have a ply manufacturer here in Dallas,
down
> the
> > street from a HD. I went to them years ago to try to get some
good
> > 1/8" made for a canoe, and the guy made me some nice 16' sheets,
> sent
> > them over to HD, and I picked them up and paid for them there.
Six
> > months later when I went back he was gone, and the new foreman
was
> not
> > interested in hearing about it.
>
> Dallas seems like a big place, and I'm glade your getting the
> material you need. Here in Toronto (where generally we have much
less
> available stuff than in the US) there are hundreds of other places
to
> buy plywood, and there are probably at least five that are marine
> specialists. One good enough that the Ply for one of the big US
> Bolger projects from this group got ordered there. Toronto is not
a
> marine center, and I find it hard to believe that in the US if you
> feret out local sources there aren't a million of them too. But it
> does sound at times like everyone either looks at Boulter plywood,
or
> HD. Some of the places I deal with were around when I started
> building 20+ years ago, and I am still learning about them now...
>
>
>
>
> > > I think the deal is to avoid sanding almost altogether. <snip>
I
> > think about 90% of the
> > > sanding could be avoided.
> >
> > Well yeah... You still have to sand to paint, or to change
> something
> > you don't like, or to glue a new bit on. Peel ply is great, and
> I'm
> > all about not sanding if I don't have to, but sometimes you do
have
> > to.
>
> There is a huge difference between barking back, and sanding just a
> surface enough to get paint to hold.
>
> >
> > Kevin
> > when I made my tri. I just don't think HD is the place to startto
> > look.the
>
> It varies wildly. We have a ply manufacturer here in Dallas, down
> street from a HD. I went to them years ago to try to get some goodsent
> 1/8" made for a canoe, and the guy made me some nice 16' sheets,
> them over to HD, and I picked them up and paid for them there. Sixnot
> months later when I went back he was gone, and the new foreman was
> interested in hearing about it.Dallas seems like a big place, and I'm glade your getting the
material you need. Here in Toronto (where generally we have much less
available stuff than in the US) there are hundreds of other places to
buy plywood, and there are probably at least five that are marine
specialists. One good enough that the Ply for one of the big US
Bolger projects from this group got ordered there. Toronto is not a
marine center, and I find it hard to believe that in the US if you
feret out local sources there aren't a million of them too. But it
does sound at times like everyone either looks at Boulter plywood, or
HD. Some of the places I deal with were around when I started
building 20+ years ago, and I am still learning about them now...
> > I think the deal is to avoid sanding almost altogether. <snip> Isomething
> think about 90% of the
> > sanding could be avoided.
>
> Well yeah... You still have to sand to paint, or to change
> you don't like, or to glue a new bit on. Peel ply is great, andI'm
> all about not sanding if I don't have to, but sometimes you do haveThere is a huge difference between barking back, and sanding just a
> to.
surface enough to get paint to hold.
>
> Kevin
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
street from a HD. I went to them years ago to try to get some good
1/8" made for a canoe, and the guy made me some nice 16' sheets, sent
them over to HD, and I picked them up and paid for them there. Six
months later when I went back he was gone, and the new foreman was not
interested in hearing about it. So I go to HD, and some lots are
really good, and some suck. The center ply in some of the 1/8" from
Paraguay is beautiful. I've hit a few sheets with crumbly endgrain
crap in the center, though. You just have to cull, and the light
gives you a chance in a mixed lot.
I think I pay about $9US a sheet. The price isn't an issue at that
level, I'd pay double or tripple that for better stuff, but I can't
get anything locally and marine ply special ordered comes out to like
$50 a sheet with shipping last time I looked.
'jacket' I can fill with ice water. I use pretty small batches for
the most part, but it still goes off fast in the heat if you don't
have it iced.
you don't like, or to glue a new bit on. Peel ply is great, and I'm
all about not sanding if I don't have to, but sometimes you do have
to.
Kevin
>tested
> > Re doorskin ply, a trick I discovered is to take a big halogen
> flashlight to the Home Depot with you. You can shine it right
> through the 1/8" stuff and check for voids.
>
> That's a cool trick, but the fact that it is necesary at all would
> imply to me that the source in question isn't good. I can get stuff
> that looks like writing paper for 13 canadian. I haven't boil
> any of it recently, but I was able to get great 1/8 that boilledfine
> when I made my tri. I just don't think HD is the place to start toIt varies wildly. We have a ply manufacturer here in Dallas, down the
> look.
street from a HD. I went to them years ago to try to get some good
1/8" made for a canoe, and the guy made me some nice 16' sheets, sent
them over to HD, and I picked them up and paid for them there. Six
months later when I went back he was gone, and the new foreman was not
interested in hearing about it. So I go to HD, and some lots are
really good, and some suck. The center ply in some of the 1/8" from
Paraguay is beautiful. I've hit a few sheets with crumbly endgrain
crap in the center, though. You just have to cull, and the light
gives you a chance in a mixed lot.
I think I pay about $9US a sheet. The price isn't an issue at that
level, I'd pay double or tripple that for better stuff, but I can't
get anything locally and marine ply special ordered comes out to like
$50 a sheet with shipping last time I looked.
> The best thing about this is that it gives you time to really mixit,
> for like five solid minutes of stirring, which keeps the toxicitylike
> down when you sand. Poorly mixed epoxy has little micro bubbles of
> unmixed hardener in it, which make the dust much more dangerous. To
> be as safe as possible, really mix it well, then let it cure for
> 24 hours or more before sanding.The important thing about my current system is that it sort of has a
>
> You might like the metal paint type mixers. I got one from Fiber
> Glast dist. Not practical for small batches, but great for big.
> also keeps the dust in the mix when mixing bog.
'jacket' I can fill with ice water. I use pretty small batches for
the most part, but it still goes off fast in the heat if you don't
have it iced.
> I think the deal is to avoid sanding almost altogether. <snip> Ithink about 90% of the
> sanding could be avoided.Well yeah... You still have to sand to paint, or to change something
you don't like, or to glue a new bit on. Peel ply is great, and I'm
all about not sanding if I don't have to, but sometimes you do have
to.
Kevin
> Re doorskin ply, a trick I discovered is to take a big halogenflashlight to the Home Depot with you. You can shine it right
through the 1/8" stuff and check for voids.
That's a cool trick, but the fact that it is necesary at all would
imply to me that the source in question isn't good. I can get stuff
that looks like writing paper for 13 canadian. I haven't boil tested
any of it recently, but I was able to get great 1/8 that boilled fine
when I made my tri. I just don't think HD is the place to start to
look.
>The best thing about this is that it gives you time to really mix it,
for like five solid minutes of stirring, which keeps the toxicity
down when you sand. Poorly mixed epoxy has little micro bubbles of
unmixed hardener in it, which make the dust much more dangerous. To
be as safe as possible, really mix it well, then let it cure for like
24 hours or more before sanding.
You might like the metal paint type mixers. I got one from Fiber
Glast dist. Not practical for small batches, but great for big.
also keeps the dust in the mix when mixing bog.
I think the deal is to avoid sanding almost altogether. If you
consider drywall, pros use a series of steps in an adative process
that really doesn't require much sanding. Amateurs keep globing and
sanding, and after a number of layers may still not have all the
surface up to a level that the first layer/application should have
reached. Drywall pros often do sand all areas, but that step can
usualy be avoided if you are living at the location, where a few
final touch-ups don't mean a return trip. I think about 90% of the
sanding could be avoided.
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
I think in any area there are hotly contested, expensive classes where a newcomer would be out of place (around here that's the Flying Scotts and the J-24s) and smaller fleets where he or she would be most welcome. You won't learn to steer unless you're a lightweight, that's true, but you can learn that on your own boat, and you will other stuff. You'll learn to jibe, for example, and can avoid the dangerous beginners' trick of rounding up and tacking to change jibes; if the weather picks up and you're just trying to run down home to your launch site, going sideways to the wind and waves twice because you're afraid of your boom is no way to be safe.
I have a cousin who learned to sail in Long Island Sound. He would walk past a gaggle of fishermen on powerboats every day on his way to his boat, and never met them or talked to them. When his father, my uncle, came out with him one day, he (uncle) chatted them up, asked about the local fishing, etc, while my cuz rigged the boat. My cuz walked over when he was done and met them all, and found this wealth of local knowledge, tide and wind and other valuable sailing info, all right there, that he had been ignoring because he didn't know them and they were a little intimidating to him. I think local racing sailors are kind of the same way to non-racers. The thing is, there's a lot of knowledge there that home-built sailors ignore to their detriment, and for the most part they'd be happy to help you.
Re doorskin ply, a trick I discovered is to take a big halogen flashlight to the Home Depot with you. You can shine it right through the 1/8" stuff and check for voids.
Re epoxy, my life changed when I started to keep it in an ice bath as I mixed it. It makes the whole thing work, especially here in Tx where you might well be trying to coat something in 105 deg. Get a tin can that will fit a big plastic dixie cup tighly at the top, but leave room for 1/2 cup of water (in the can but outside the dixie cup). Mix the epoxy iced down like this, and you'll have a close to infinite pot life. The best thing about this is that it gives you time to really mix it, for like five solid minutes of stirring, which keeps the toxicity down when you sand. Poorly mixed epoxy has little micro bubbles of unmixed hardener in it, which make the dust much more dangerous. To be as safe as possible, really mix it well, then let it cure for like 24 hours or more before sanding.
Great forum! I'm thinking of building a liveaboard over the next year, to serve as a cheap apartment for me if I go back to grad school. It's nice to have so much experience to draw on.
Kevin
> While your average rookie, or even experienced cruiser, won't beI have to second this. I sail with the C 15 fleet and sometimes with the Butterfly fleet on White Rock Lake in Dallas. Both are very nice people, and really welcome new folks into the fleet. The C 15 is a two person boat, so getting a ride is almost never a problem. In fact, we often have people trailer boats to the races on Sundays, then leave one boat on the trailer and two skippers sail on one boat, for lack of crew. Any warm body would be welcome at that point, since any skipper would rather steer than crew <G>. The Butterfly is a one person boat, and the fleet has several times loaned me a boat to race on, just because I showed up and said I knew how to sail. It wouldn't be a good idea for a first sail, but if you spend a weekend or two on the water taking lessons from someone, you're ready to try. And they're good sailors, they'll teach you a lot if you'll listen to them. In fact, the Sunday Butterfly races are open to any single sail board boat, so we have Lasers, Sunfish, and who knows what start with us; I'm sure they'd be fascinated to have a Whisp or something show up, if you have your own boat.
> offered a berth in the next America's Cup (even on the Canadian entry)
> most yacht and sailing clubs run some pretty "beer & pretzels" level
> races where skippers, spouses, and friends pretend to be serious
> racers and meet for a Pink Gin on the dock after. I've found that if
> you post a note on the bulletin board at the club you'll likely be
> offered a berth on next Friday's Rum Race.
>
> If you've never sailed, an evening or two passed agreeably learning
> just what a boomvang is and how to tack without spilling your beer
> will go a long way to building a rookies confidence. Ya' might make a
> friend or two in the bargain.
I think in any area there are hotly contested, expensive classes where a newcomer would be out of place (around here that's the Flying Scotts and the J-24s) and smaller fleets where he or she would be most welcome. You won't learn to steer unless you're a lightweight, that's true, but you can learn that on your own boat, and you will other stuff. You'll learn to jibe, for example, and can avoid the dangerous beginners' trick of rounding up and tacking to change jibes; if the weather picks up and you're just trying to run down home to your launch site, going sideways to the wind and waves twice because you're afraid of your boom is no way to be safe.
I have a cousin who learned to sail in Long Island Sound. He would walk past a gaggle of fishermen on powerboats every day on his way to his boat, and never met them or talked to them. When his father, my uncle, came out with him one day, he (uncle) chatted them up, asked about the local fishing, etc, while my cuz rigged the boat. My cuz walked over when he was done and met them all, and found this wealth of local knowledge, tide and wind and other valuable sailing info, all right there, that he had been ignoring because he didn't know them and they were a little intimidating to him. I think local racing sailors are kind of the same way to non-racers. The thing is, there's a lot of knowledge there that home-built sailors ignore to their detriment, and for the most part they'd be happy to help you.
Re doorskin ply, a trick I discovered is to take a big halogen flashlight to the Home Depot with you. You can shine it right through the 1/8" stuff and check for voids.
Re epoxy, my life changed when I started to keep it in an ice bath as I mixed it. It makes the whole thing work, especially here in Tx where you might well be trying to coat something in 105 deg. Get a tin can that will fit a big plastic dixie cup tighly at the top, but leave room for 1/2 cup of water (in the can but outside the dixie cup). Mix the epoxy iced down like this, and you'll have a close to infinite pot life. The best thing about this is that it gives you time to really mix it, for like five solid minutes of stirring, which keeps the toxicity down when you sand. Poorly mixed epoxy has little micro bubbles of unmixed hardener in it, which make the dust much more dangerous. To be as safe as possible, really mix it well, then let it cure for like 24 hours or more before sanding.
Great forum! I'm thinking of building a liveaboard over the next year, to serve as a cheap apartment for me if I go back to grad school. It's nice to have so much experience to draw on.
Kevin
While your average rookie, or even experienced cruiser, won't be
offered a berth in the next America's Cup (even on the Canadian entry)
most yacht and sailing clubs run some pretty "beer & pretzels" level
races where skippers, spouses, and friends pretend to be serious
racers and meet for a Pink Gin on the dock after. I've found that if
you post a note on the bulletin board at the club you'll likely be
offered a berth on next Friday's Rum Race.
If you've never sailed, an evening or two passed agreeably learning
just what a boomvang is and how to tack without spilling your beer
will go a long way to building a rookies confidence. Ya' might make a
friend or two in the bargain.
offered a berth in the next America's Cup (even on the Canadian entry)
most yacht and sailing clubs run some pretty "beer & pretzels" level
races where skippers, spouses, and friends pretend to be serious
racers and meet for a Pink Gin on the dock after. I've found that if
you post a note on the bulletin board at the club you'll likely be
offered a berth on next Friday's Rum Race.
If you've never sailed, an evening or two passed agreeably learning
just what a boomvang is and how to tack without spilling your beer
will go a long way to building a rookies confidence. Ya' might make a
friend or two in the bargain.
In a message dated 8/15/02 7:44:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
pvanderw@...writes:
than I could of imagined. You should consider copyrighting this material
before "Boats 'R US" starts marketing little engraved plates with the
instructions without paying you royalties!
I hope that the neophyte that started this thread doesn't think you are only
being jocular. This advice, a modicum of common sense and adequate sailing
opportunities would, IMHO, pretty much all anyone would need to get started.
It wouldn't do any damage to read a basic primer on sailing. I think that the
Red Cross has a very basic "intro-to-sailing book", with a heavier emphasis
on safety than on technique, but if you stay safe, you'll develop the
techniques. (I took an "intro-to-sailing" class conducted by the Red Cross
many years ago when I was impoverished and living in San Francisco. I didn't
need the instruction, but completion of the very short class gave me the use
of a boat for an afternoon upon completion for a cost far cheaper than any
charter. My sailing proficiency was noted and I was politely, but firmly,
discouraged from applying for the course in the future. Pity.)
I can't say that I think very much about crewing on a race boat as a learning
opportunity. It would be an exaggeration to say that I never learned anything
crewing the same that was not applicable to anything other than an identical
class boat under similar conditions, but not a gross exaggeration. The
likelihood that a racer who is looking for green crew to sail in a race knows
anything about sailing anything but his particular class on his particular
waters, with more than minimal proficiency is probably about nil. And you'd
still need prior knowledge and experience to even notice what the skipper was
trying to do with the down-haul, the vang, the traveller, etc. Not much use
to a beginner.
"How to Sail in Three Easy Steps"! CLASSIC!
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pvanderw@...writes:
> Sailing is a very easy to learn skill.EXCELLENT! This pretty much covers the basics of sail trim more concisely
>
> How to sail in three easy steps:
>
> 1) point the boat in the direction you wish to go.
> 2) pull in the sails until they stop flapping.
> 3) if the sails are all the way in and are still flapping, choose a
> different direction and return to step 1.
>
than I could of imagined. You should consider copyrighting this material
before "Boats 'R US" starts marketing little engraved plates with the
instructions without paying you royalties!
I hope that the neophyte that started this thread doesn't think you are only
being jocular. This advice, a modicum of common sense and adequate sailing
opportunities would, IMHO, pretty much all anyone would need to get started.
It wouldn't do any damage to read a basic primer on sailing. I think that the
Red Cross has a very basic "intro-to-sailing book", with a heavier emphasis
on safety than on technique, but if you stay safe, you'll develop the
techniques. (I took an "intro-to-sailing" class conducted by the Red Cross
many years ago when I was impoverished and living in San Francisco. I didn't
need the instruction, but completion of the very short class gave me the use
of a boat for an afternoon upon completion for a cost far cheaper than any
charter. My sailing proficiency was noted and I was politely, but firmly,
discouraged from applying for the course in the future. Pity.)
I can't say that I think very much about crewing on a race boat as a learning
opportunity. It would be an exaggeration to say that I never learned anything
crewing the same that was not applicable to anything other than an identical
class boat under similar conditions, but not a gross exaggeration. The
likelihood that a racer who is looking for green crew to sail in a race knows
anything about sailing anything but his particular class on his particular
waters, with more than minimal proficiency is probably about nil. And you'd
still need prior knowledge and experience to even notice what the skipper was
trying to do with the down-haul, the vang, the traveller, etc. Not much use
to a beginner.
"How to Sail in Three Easy Steps"! CLASSIC!
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Thursday 15 August 2002 20:43, pvanderwaart wrote:
4) if the boat still doesn't want to move, let the sails out
until they start to flap and go to 2)
Choking the sail is one of the most common mistakes when
learning to sail.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
> > Sailing is a very easy to learn skill.I would add one small optimisation to the above:
>
> How to sail in three easy steps:
>
> 1) point the boat in the direction you wish to go.
> 2) pull in the sails until they stop flapping.
> 3) if the sails are all the way in and are still flapping, choose a
> different direction and return to step 1.
4) if the boat still doesn't want to move, let the sails out
until they start to flap and go to 2)
Choking the sail is one of the most common mistakes when
learning to sail.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
Reduce a complicated, storied, mystical process to the simple and
even I can begin to understand it.
Bruce Hector, Now realizing that through most of his sailing
missadventures he'd been omitting step 3.
even I can begin to understand it.
Bruce Hector, Now realizing that through most of his sailing
missadventures he'd been omitting step 3.
>> Sailing is a very easy to learn skill.This is perfect! Everything else is details!
>
>How to sail in three easy steps:
>
>1) point the boat in the direction you wish to go.
>2) pull in the sails until they stop flapping.
>3) if the sails are all the way in and are still flapping, choose a
>different direction and return to step 1.
YIBS,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
> Sailing is a very easy to learn skill.How to sail in three easy steps:
1) point the boat in the direction you wish to go.
2) pull in the sails until they stop flapping.
3) if the sails are all the way in and are still flapping, choose a
different direction and return to step 1.
PHV
John, you had me laughing with this one. That sort of sick, nervous laugh the guy in the monster movie laughs just before he gets eaten. I've heard stories about that hole in the water that you throw money into. I do tend to become passionate about things that interest me though, so I'm probably a goner, but what a way to go. I'm actually thinking about what my second boat will be, and I haven't even built my first. I've got it bad.
FB
announcer97624 wrote:Frank,
Sailing is a very easy to learn skill. Sailing to win in races takes
a strong will and a love of the sport. I sometimes crew on large
sailboats and my size and experience always places me to the
assignment of handling the spinnaker poll and forward deck. I love
all types of boats not just sailboats. I own sailboats, fishing
boats, Kayaks, and even a paddle boat.
Here is the real point. When I crew on those large boats they don't
let me on unless I wear expensive deck shoes. Most owners won't let
you slide with a cheap pair of K mart white sole shoes. When I sail
my catamaran my PFD and harness for trapping out cost me nearly $500.
and that is only the beginning of the money game. Even if you sail
once or twice a year and only own one boat it still is not
inexpensive.
Yes that Bolger boat your looking at to learn to sail is inexpensive
but I can explain to you that it won't stop there. Once you're bitten
the boat bug becomes a large hole in the water you throw money into.
Ever seeking that perfect boat and close reach to the horizon it
becomes an obsession. As an addict it is my duty to let you know that
you will own a trailer so buy it now. It will make selling the boat
you're going to build much easier when you most certainly buy or
build bigger. I don't wish to anger you or insult you in any way, I
am merely pointing out that once you take the plunge you'll enjoy the
ride much more than you thought possible. Just my $.02 worth. Good
luck and fair winds.
John
FB
announcer97624 wrote:Frank,
Sailing is a very easy to learn skill. Sailing to win in races takes
a strong will and a love of the sport. I sometimes crew on large
sailboats and my size and experience always places me to the
assignment of handling the spinnaker poll and forward deck. I love
all types of boats not just sailboats. I own sailboats, fishing
boats, Kayaks, and even a paddle boat.
Here is the real point. When I crew on those large boats they don't
let me on unless I wear expensive deck shoes. Most owners won't let
you slide with a cheap pair of K mart white sole shoes. When I sail
my catamaran my PFD and harness for trapping out cost me nearly $500.
and that is only the beginning of the money game. Even if you sail
once or twice a year and only own one boat it still is not
inexpensive.
Yes that Bolger boat your looking at to learn to sail is inexpensive
but I can explain to you that it won't stop there. Once you're bitten
the boat bug becomes a large hole in the water you throw money into.
Ever seeking that perfect boat and close reach to the horizon it
becomes an obsession. As an addict it is my duty to let you know that
you will own a trailer so buy it now. It will make selling the boat
you're going to build much easier when you most certainly buy or
build bigger. I don't wish to anger you or insult you in any way, I
am merely pointing out that once you take the plunge you'll enjoy the
ride much more than you thought possible. Just my $.02 worth. Good
luck and fair winds.
John
--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales wrote:
>
> My minivan is a 4 cylinder, and doesn't already have a hitch, but I
agree having it on a light trailer would be more convenient.
Probably easier to store too.
>
> FB
>
> John Bell wrote:However, I'm of the opinion that once a boat get
heavier than about 65 lbs.
> it's time to look for a trailer. A small light duty trailer isn't
that much
> more expensive than fitted Yakima or Thule racks for modern
gutterless cars.
> You'll get a lot more use out of a boat that you don't have to
worry about
> getting up and down from the roof, especially if you're solo.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not necessarily. I've been successfully resisting a trailer for four
years. I don't plan to get any boat I can't lift. I do have the
expense of renting a place to build, tho. I know it is my duty as an
American to consume ever larger and more extravagant toys, but I have
resisted to a large extent, even when I was working. I suspect
some other people feel the same way. It can be fun either way.
years. I don't plan to get any boat I can't lift. I do have the
expense of renting a place to build, tho. I know it is my duty as an
American to consume ever larger and more extravagant toys, but I have
resisted to a large extent, even when I was working. I suspect
some other people feel the same way. It can be fun either way.
--- In bolger@y..., "announcer97624" <caj@k...> wrote:
> Frank,
snip Once you're
bitten
> the boat bug becomes a large hole in the water you throw money into.
> Ever seeking that perfect boat and close reach to the horizon it
> becomes an obsession. As an addict it is my duty to let you know
that
> you will own a trailer so buy it now. It will make selling the boat
> you're going to build much easier when you most certainly buy or
> build bigger. I don't wish to anger you or insult you in any way, I
> am merely pointing out that once you take the plunge you'll enjoy
the
> ride much more than you thought possible. Just my $.02 worth. Good
> luck and fair winds.
>
> John
> snip
Frank,
Sailing is a very easy to learn skill. Sailing to win in races takes
a strong will and a love of the sport. I sometimes crew on large
sailboats and my size and experience always places me to the
assignment of handling the spinnaker poll and forward deck. I love
all types of boats not just sailboats. I own sailboats, fishing
boats, Kayaks, and even a paddle boat.
Here is the real point. When I crew on those large boats they don't
let me on unless I wear expensive deck shoes. Most owners won't let
you slide with a cheap pair of K mart white sole shoes. When I sail
my catamaran my PFD and harness for trapping out cost me nearly $500.
and that is only the beginning of the money game. Even if you sail
once or twice a year and only own one boat it still is not
inexpensive.
Yes that Bolger boat your looking at to learn to sail is inexpensive
but I can explain to you that it won't stop there. Once you're bitten
the boat bug becomes a large hole in the water you throw money into.
Ever seeking that perfect boat and close reach to the horizon it
becomes an obsession. As an addict it is my duty to let you know that
you will own a trailer so buy it now. It will make selling the boat
you're going to build much easier when you most certainly buy or
build bigger. I don't wish to anger you or insult you in any way, I
am merely pointing out that once you take the plunge you'll enjoy the
ride much more than you thought possible. Just my $.02 worth. Good
luck and fair winds.
John
Sailing is a very easy to learn skill. Sailing to win in races takes
a strong will and a love of the sport. I sometimes crew on large
sailboats and my size and experience always places me to the
assignment of handling the spinnaker poll and forward deck. I love
all types of boats not just sailboats. I own sailboats, fishing
boats, Kayaks, and even a paddle boat.
Here is the real point. When I crew on those large boats they don't
let me on unless I wear expensive deck shoes. Most owners won't let
you slide with a cheap pair of K mart white sole shoes. When I sail
my catamaran my PFD and harness for trapping out cost me nearly $500.
and that is only the beginning of the money game. Even if you sail
once or twice a year and only own one boat it still is not
inexpensive.
Yes that Bolger boat your looking at to learn to sail is inexpensive
but I can explain to you that it won't stop there. Once you're bitten
the boat bug becomes a large hole in the water you throw money into.
Ever seeking that perfect boat and close reach to the horizon it
becomes an obsession. As an addict it is my duty to let you know that
you will own a trailer so buy it now. It will make selling the boat
you're going to build much easier when you most certainly buy or
build bigger. I don't wish to anger you or insult you in any way, I
am merely pointing out that once you take the plunge you'll enjoy the
ride much more than you thought possible. Just my $.02 worth. Good
luck and fair winds.
John
--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales <frank_bales@y...> wrote:
>
> My minivan is a 4 cylinder, and doesn't already have a hitch, but I
agree having it on a light trailer would be more convenient.
Probably easier to store too.
>
> FB
>
> John Bell wrote:However, I'm of the opinion that once a boat get
heavier than about 65 lbs.
> it's time to look for a trailer. A small light duty trailer isn't
that much
> more expensive than fitted Yakima or Thule racks for modern
gutterless cars.
> You'll get a lot more use out of a boat that you don't have to
worry about
> getting up and down from the roof, especially if you're solo.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My minivan is a 4 cylinder, and doesn't already have a hitch, but I agree having it on a light trailer would be more convenient. Probably easier to store too.
FB
John Bell wrote:However, I'm of the opinion that once a boat get heavier than about 65 lbs.
it's time to look for a trailer. A small light duty trailer isn't that much
more expensive than fitted Yakima or Thule racks for modern gutterless cars.
You'll get a lot more use out of a boat that you don't have to worry about
getting up and down from the roof, especially if you're solo.
---------------------------------
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HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
FB
John Bell wrote:However, I'm of the opinion that once a boat get heavier than about 65 lbs.
it's time to look for a trailer. A small light duty trailer isn't that much
more expensive than fitted Yakima or Thule racks for modern gutterless cars.
You'll get a lot more use out of a boat that you don't have to worry about
getting up and down from the roof, especially if you're solo.
---------------------------------
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HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Since I don't have roof racks yet, I should be able to match them to the boat. Thanks.
FB
pvanderwaart
wrote:Exactly so. I had a fiberglass dinghy that I would have described as
having no sheer at all, but when I tried to put it on top of a car,
it sat with bow and stern on the car roof and the middle arched over
the roof rack. It's a matter of proper adaptation of roofrack to boat.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
FB
pvanderwaart
wrote:Exactly so. I had a fiberglass dinghy that I would have described as
having no sheer at all, but when I tried to put it on top of a car,
it sat with bow and stern on the car roof and the middle arched over
the roof rack. It's a matter of proper adaptation of roofrack to boat.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Having owned a couple highly rockered whitewater canoes, I'm familiar with
the problem with racks. It turns out that it's a small matter to raise the
bars on many types of racks to solve the issue.
However, I'm of the opinion that once a boat get heavier than about 65 lbs.
it's time to look for a trailer. A small light duty trailer isn't that much
more expensive than fitted Yakima or Thule racks for modern gutterless cars.
You'll get a lot more use out of a boat that you don't have to worry about
getting up and down from the roof, especially if you're solo.
jb
the problem with racks. It turns out that it's a small matter to raise the
bars on many types of racks to solve the issue.
However, I'm of the opinion that once a boat get heavier than about 65 lbs.
it's time to look for a trailer. A small light duty trailer isn't that much
more expensive than fitted Yakima or Thule racks for modern gutterless cars.
You'll get a lot more use out of a boat that you don't have to worry about
getting up and down from the roof, especially if you're solo.
jb
----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 6:59 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Learning To Sail
| > If the
| > sheer is too curvy and the roof racks aren't high enough
| > the bow may dip down in front of driver too much or the stern
| > may hit the roof of the vehicle.
|
| Exactly so. I had a fiberglass dinghy that I would have described as
| having no sheer at all, but when I tried to put it on top of a car,
| it sat with bow and stern on the car roof and the middle arched over
| the roof rack. It's a matter of proper adaptation of roofrack to boat.
|
| PHV
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
> If theExactly so. I had a fiberglass dinghy that I would have described as
> sheer is too curvy and the roof racks aren't high enough
> the bow may dip down in front of driver too much or the stern
> may hit the roof of the vehicle.
having no sheer at all, but when I tried to put it on top of a car,
it sat with bow and stern on the car roof and the middle arched over
the roof rack. It's a matter of proper adaptation of roofrack to boat.
PHV
This is a problem that I've also had. By "spring of the sheer" he
means the curve of the top of the boat in a vertical direction. If the
sheer is too curvy and the roof racks aren't high enough the bow may
dip down in front of driver too much or the stern may hit the roof of
the vehicle. One possible solution is to carry boat right side up, but
that makes it higher and maybe makes the vehicle more vulnerable to
crosswinds and sharp corners. There are some designs that don't have
any curve in the sheer if that turns out to be a problem, or you can
add spacers. In addition to the Bolger designs, Michalak has some with
no curve in the shear, tho I seem to recall that Teal has very little.
means the curve of the top of the boat in a vertical direction. If the
sheer is too curvy and the roof racks aren't high enough the bow may
dip down in front of driver too much or the stern may hit the roof of
the vehicle. One possible solution is to carry boat right side up, but
that makes it higher and maybe makes the vehicle more vulnerable to
crosswinds and sharp corners. There are some designs that don't have
any curve in the sheer if that turns out to be a problem, or you can
add spacers. In addition to the Bolger designs, Michalak has some with
no curve in the shear, tho I seem to recall that Teal has very little.
--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales <frank_bales@y...> wrote:
>
> Peter, I apologize for my ignorance, but could you translate, "check
that your car-topping arrangements can handle the spring of the
sheer." I have a minivan that I'm intending to use for cartopping my
boat. Again, I'm not against getting a trailor, but it would be one
less expense.
>
>
>
> FB
snip
Peter, I apologize for my ignorance, but could you translate, "check that your car-topping arrangements can handle the spring of the sheer." I have a minivan that I'm intending to use for cartopping my boat. Again, I'm not against getting a trailor, but it would be one less expense.
FB
pvanderwaart
wrote:> You will learn more about sailing by crewing for an experienced
think there are a lot of important things that you don't learn that
way. The average crew doesn't get a lot of time on the helm, for
example.
Although I've not sailed a Cartopper so I don't know what the "feel"
is, it's a design with a lot of good features, especially decent
sprawling space amidships for such a small boat. Incidently, uou
definiely want the Bermuda (3-cornered) rig rather than the boomless
sprit. Also check that your car-topping arrangements can handle the
spring of the sheer.
PHV
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
FB
pvanderwaart
wrote:> You will learn more about sailing by crewing for an experienced
> racing skipper in one or two afternoons than you would putsingaround
> all summer in a "Teal" or "Cartopper" by yourself.Although I absolutely agree that you can learn a lot while racing, I
think there are a lot of important things that you don't learn that
way. The average crew doesn't get a lot of time on the helm, for
example.
Although I've not sailed a Cartopper so I don't know what the "feel"
is, it's a design with a lot of good features, especially decent
sprawling space amidships for such a small boat. Incidently, uou
definiely want the Bermuda (3-cornered) rig rather than the boomless
sprit. Also check that your car-topping arrangements can handle the
spring of the sheer.
PHV
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks, Bob, for the advice. The answer to your question is both. I want to learn to sail, and I want to build a boat. I am, in fact, going to learn to sail at a some sort of school, which I'm investigating at present. But I've also read about how much you can learn by crewing on racing boats. I would like to try that, but I'm 53 years young, so I'm not sure how much opportunity there is for someone my age. One of my problems is I don't live on a coast, though it's not all that far away. I live in western Virginia, and there are some sizable lakes within easy driving distance where I could sail, at least every weekend. I want to take lessons, but I want to have my own boat so that I can sail more often. Renting would be too high for me on a regular basis. I agree that sailing in many different boats is a desirable goal which I intend to pursue, but I am intoxicated with Bolger designs. There's just something about them, isn't there?
FB
rdchamberland wrote:Hi Frank, Is it that you really want to learn to sail or do you just
want to build a boat? If you really, really want to learn to sail I
would suggest that you look around your area for a sailing group that
is racing "Lasers" or "Snipes" or just about any small one design boat
class. You will learn more about sailing by crewing for an experienced
racing skipper in one or two afternoons than you would putsing around
all summer in a "Teal" or "Cartopper" by yourself. I would also
suggest that you learn to sail and sail a few different types of boats
before you decide which boat to build. I'm sure there are plenty of
contrary opinions but this is my take.
Bob Chamberland
FB
rdchamberland wrote:Hi Frank, Is it that you really want to learn to sail or do you just
want to build a boat? If you really, really want to learn to sail I
would suggest that you look around your area for a sailing group that
is racing "Lasers" or "Snipes" or just about any small one design boat
class. You will learn more about sailing by crewing for an experienced
racing skipper in one or two afternoons than you would putsing around
all summer in a "Teal" or "Cartopper" by yourself. I would also
suggest that you learn to sail and sail a few different types of boats
before you decide which boat to build. I'm sure there are plenty of
contrary opinions but this is my take.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales wrote:
>
> I would appreciate any opinions as to which Bolger design would be
the best to learn to sail in? Have taken the basics, but want an
everyday boat to learn to sail. I'd want her to be challenging, but
not enough to be a discouragement to a new sailor. I guess she should
be forgiving. At H.H. Payson's site the Windsprint, Surf, and Teal
seem to be the most appealing (in that order) to me. Do you think a
Micro is to much boat for a beginner?
>
>
>
> Frank Bales--From Beautiful Staunton, VAhttp://www.staunton.va.us
>
> "So great has been the endurance, so incredible the achievement,
that, as long as the sun keeps a set course in heaven, it would be
foolish to despair of the human race." --Ernest L. Woodward
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> You will learn more about sailing by crewing for an experiencedaround
> racing skipper in one or two afternoons than you would putsing
> all summer in a "Teal" or "Cartopper" by yourself.Although I absolutely agree that you can learn a lot while racing, I
think there are a lot of important things that you don't learn that
way. The average crew doesn't get a lot of time on the helm, for
example.
Although I've not sailed a Cartopper so I don't know what the "feel"
is, it's a design with a lot of good features, especially decent
sprawling space amidships for such a small boat. Incidently, uou
definiely want the Bermuda (3-cornered) rig rather than the boomless
sprit. Also check that your car-topping arrangements can handle the
spring of the sheer.
PHV
Hi Frank, Is it that you really want to learn to sail or do you just
want to build a boat? If you really, really want to learn to sail I
would suggest that you look around your area for a sailing group that
is racing "Lasers" or "Snipes" or just about any small one design boat
class. You will learn more about sailing by crewing for an experienced
racing skipper in one or two afternoons than you would putsing around
all summer in a "Teal" or "Cartopper" by yourself. I would also
suggest that you learn to sail and sail a few different types of boats
before you decide which boat to build. I'm sure there are plenty of
contrary opinions but this is my take.
Bob Chamberland
want to build a boat? If you really, really want to learn to sail I
would suggest that you look around your area for a sailing group that
is racing "Lasers" or "Snipes" or just about any small one design boat
class. You will learn more about sailing by crewing for an experienced
racing skipper in one or two afternoons than you would putsing around
all summer in a "Teal" or "Cartopper" by yourself. I would also
suggest that you learn to sail and sail a few different types of boats
before you decide which boat to build. I'm sure there are plenty of
contrary opinions but this is my take.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales <frank_bales@y...> wrote:
>
> I would appreciate any opinions as to which Bolger design would be
the best to learn to sail in? Have taken the basics, but want an
everyday boat to learn to sail. I'd want her to be challenging, but
not enough to be a discouragement to a new sailor. I guess she should
be forgiving. At H.H. Payson's site the Windsprint, Surf, and Teal
seem to be the most appealing (in that order) to me. Do you think a
Micro is to much boat for a beginner?
>
>
>
> Frank Bales--From Beautiful Staunton, VAhttp://www.staunton.va.us
>
> "So great has been the endurance, so incredible the achievement,
that, as long as the sun keeps a set course in heaven, it would be
foolish to despair of the human race." --Ernest L. Woodward
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Frank,
I seem to be in the same situation as you, tending towards the cartopper or
featherwind. I've also been directed towards the Breeze Baby (you can find
plans through any search engine). I'm not yet sure which one I'll go with
but mine too will be a winter project. I'm here in Finland so there's not
much chance of getting out on the water during the winter months!
Greg
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I seem to be in the same situation as you, tending towards the cartopper or
featherwind. I've also been directed towards the Breeze Baby (you can find
plans through any search engine). I'm not yet sure which one I'll go with
but mine too will be a winter project. I'm here in Finland so there's not
much chance of getting out on the water during the winter months!
Greg
>From: Frank Bales <frank_bales@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Learning To Sail
>Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:20:03 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>I should've said Peter, instead of David, when mentioning the Featherwind.
>Sorry about that. --FB
>
> Frank Bales wrote:
>Thanks Peter, Alan, & David. Very much appreciated. (By the way, Alan, I
>tried to email you back from two different email addresses, and it wouldn't
>go through). I am leaning toward the Car Topper because it is a car topper.
>It probably doesn't reward as well, David, but for a first sailboat, and
>first building project, I feel pretty comfortable with it. I'm not a novice
>with tools, but it's been a while. David, I do like Dave Carnell's version
>of the Featherwind, and I'm seriously considering it. This will be a
>winter-time project for me, but I'll let you know when I purchase plans.
>Thanks again.
>FB
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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I should've said Peter, instead of David, when mentioning the Featherwind. Sorry about that. --FB
Frank Bales wrote:
Thanks Peter, Alan, & David. Very much appreciated. (By the way, Alan, I tried to email you back from two different email addresses, and it wouldn't go through). I am leaning toward the Car Topper because it is a car topper. It probably doesn't reward as well, David, but for a first sailboat, and first building project, I feel pretty comfortable with it. I'm not a novice with tools, but it's been a while. David, I do like Dave Carnell's version of the Featherwind, and I'm seriously considering it. This will be a winter-time project for me, but I'll let you know when I purchase plans. Thanks again.
FB
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Frank Bales wrote:
Thanks Peter, Alan, & David. Very much appreciated. (By the way, Alan, I tried to email you back from two different email addresses, and it wouldn't go through). I am leaning toward the Car Topper because it is a car topper. It probably doesn't reward as well, David, but for a first sailboat, and first building project, I feel pretty comfortable with it. I'm not a novice with tools, but it's been a while. David, I do like Dave Carnell's version of the Featherwind, and I'm seriously considering it. This will be a winter-time project for me, but I'll let you know when I purchase plans. Thanks again.
FB
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks Peter, Alan, & David. Very much appreciated. (By the way, Alan, I tried to email you back from two different email addresses, and it wouldn't go through). I am leaning toward the Car Topper because it is a car topper. It probably doesn't reward as well, David, but for a first sailboat, and first building project, I feel pretty comfortable with it. I'm not a novice with tools, but it's been a while. David, I do like Dave Carnell's version of the Featherwind, and I'm seriously considering it. This will be a winter-time project for me, but I'll let you know when I purchase plans. Thanks again.
FB
dnjost wrote: I kind of like gypsy or cartopper as well. I remember learning to
sail on dinghies such as the Oday Sprite, Enterprise, Lasers, etc...
the ones I think I learned most from were the ones that rewarded good
sailing with good performance and were easy to recover from a
capsize. The enterprise was full floatation, fun for 3, rewarded
good choices with good performance, and was easy to recover from a
capsize. Gypsy comes close to this but only has the one sail. I
think adding a good amount of foam in strategic places could make it
a better trainer.
I agree that Micro may not be the best choice for learning on. It
has a rather wide groove, and is a tad sluggish often winding up in
stays if the main is not backwinded during the tack, the mizzen needs
to be sheeted in prior to tacking as well. She will be next to
impossible to capsize! and will take 4 out for a daysail.
Happy Sailing,
David Jost
"think I may go and resurrect the old Enterprise from the graveyard
after this discussion."
Gypsy or Cartopper. The latter two are tack and tape
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
FB
dnjost wrote: I kind of like gypsy or cartopper as well. I remember learning to
sail on dinghies such as the Oday Sprite, Enterprise, Lasers, etc...
the ones I think I learned most from were the ones that rewarded good
sailing with good performance and were easy to recover from a
capsize. The enterprise was full floatation, fun for 3, rewarded
good choices with good performance, and was easy to recover from a
capsize. Gypsy comes close to this but only has the one sail. I
think adding a good amount of foam in strategic places could make it
a better trainer.
I agree that Micro may not be the best choice for learning on. It
has a rather wide groove, and is a tad sluggish often winding up in
stays if the main is not backwinded during the tack, the mizzen needs
to be sheeted in prior to tacking as well. She will be next to
impossible to capsize! and will take 4 out for a daysail.
Happy Sailing,
David Jost
"think I may go and resurrect the old Enterprise from the graveyard
after this discussion."
Gypsy or Cartopper. The latter two are tack and tape
> construction which you might prefer.---------------------------------
>
> Peter
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I kind of like gypsy or cartopper as well. I remember learning to
sail on dinghies such as the Oday Sprite, Enterprise, Lasers, etc...
the ones I think I learned most from were the ones that rewarded good
sailing with good performance and were easy to recover from a
capsize. The enterprise was full floatation, fun for 3, rewarded
good choices with good performance, and was easy to recover from a
capsize. Gypsy comes close to this but only has the one sail. I
think adding a good amount of foam in strategic places could make it
a better trainer.
I agree that Micro may not be the best choice for learning on. It
has a rather wide groove, and is a tad sluggish often winding up in
stays if the main is not backwinded during the tack, the mizzen needs
to be sheeted in prior to tacking as well. She will be next to
impossible to capsize! and will take 4 out for a daysail.
Happy Sailing,
David Jost
"think I may go and resurrect the old Enterprise from the graveyard
after this discussion."
Gypsy or Cartopper. The latter two are tack and tape
sail on dinghies such as the Oday Sprite, Enterprise, Lasers, etc...
the ones I think I learned most from were the ones that rewarded good
sailing with good performance and were easy to recover from a
capsize. The enterprise was full floatation, fun for 3, rewarded
good choices with good performance, and was easy to recover from a
capsize. Gypsy comes close to this but only has the one sail. I
think adding a good amount of foam in strategic places could make it
a better trainer.
I agree that Micro may not be the best choice for learning on. It
has a rather wide groove, and is a tad sluggish often winding up in
stays if the main is not backwinded during the tack, the mizzen needs
to be sheeted in prior to tacking as well. She will be next to
impossible to capsize! and will take 4 out for a daysail.
Happy Sailing,
David Jost
"think I may go and resurrect the old Enterprise from the graveyard
after this discussion."
Gypsy or Cartopper. The latter two are tack and tape
> construction which you might prefer.
>
> Peter
> I would appreciate any opinions as to which Bolger design would bethe best to learn to sail in?
I have never sailed a Micro, but I feel safe in saying that it would
not be too much boat for a beginner to sail. However it would be a
lot of boat to build until you have sailed enough for your prejudices
and opinions to gel. You wouldn't want to do that much work and find
you really want a different kind of boat. In addition, the shallow
Micro keel means it won't shine sailing upwind which might be
especially frustrating for a beginner (who would tend to blame
himself).
Of the other boats you mention, I would suggest Surf, or the somewhat
equivalent June Bug. Surf is possibly the better pure sailboat, but I
believe June Bug has better stablility that you might prefer. I seem
to remember that there is also now a sailing version of the Pointy
Skiff.
Other boats to suggest are the Featherwind, especially in Dave
Carnell's $200 sailboat version (this may be the best suggestion I
have), Gypsy or Cartopper. The latter two are tack and tape
construction which you might prefer.
Peter
I would appreciate any opinions as to which Bolger design would be the best to learn to sail in? Have taken the basics, but want an everyday boat to learn to sail. I'd want her to be challenging, but not enough to be a discouragement to a new sailor. I guess she should be forgiving. At H.H. Payson's site the Windsprint, Surf, and Teal seem to be the most appealing (in that order) to me. Do you think a Micro is to much boat for a beginner?
Frank Bales--From Beautiful Staunton, VAhttp://www.staunton.va.us
"So great has been the endurance, so incredible the achievement, that, as long as the sun keeps a set course in heaven, it would be foolish to despair of the human race." --Ernest L. Woodward
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Frank Bales--From Beautiful Staunton, VAhttp://www.staunton.va.us
"So great has been the endurance, so incredible the achievement, that, as long as the sun keeps a set course in heaven, it would be foolish to despair of the human race." --Ernest L. Woodward
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In bolger@y..., jhkohnen@b... wrote:
in new manufacture right now (as you probably know). One of the most
useful, and I have the full spectrum, is the Rali plane, looks like
crap, but is one of the most practical designs I have every used.
Virtualy instant blade setting, and depth adjustment, replaceable
blades (that's what they are like, neither pro or con in my view,
there is model I haven't tried with a sharpeneable blade, and the
rep. blades are sharpenable several times). It is the plane I most
reach for for general use. It is embarassingly non-fancy, but that
should appeal here.
but for plywood boats a modern Stanley or
> A good, sharp handplane is a pleasure to use, and you've got plentyof time
> to make sure you're not making a Big Mistake. Power planes arenoisy, scary
> and nerve-wracking to use, and you can make a Big Mistake so quickit'll
> make your head spin! If you can, get ahold of an old plane, theyjust don't
> make them like they used to,R & S don't, but there are any number of outstanding planes available
in new manufacture right now (as you probably know). One of the most
useful, and I have the full spectrum, is the Rali plane, looks like
crap, but is one of the most practical designs I have every used.
Virtualy instant blade setting, and depth adjustment, replaceable
blades (that's what they are like, neither pro or con in my view,
there is model I haven't tried with a sharpeneable blade, and the
rep. blades are sharpenable several times). It is the plane I most
reach for for general use. It is embarassingly non-fancy, but that
should appeal here.
but for plywood boats a modern Stanley or
> Record low-angle block plane will do well enough.sort of
>
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:32:48 -0000, Kevin wrote:
> > I have to agree, you don't *need* a plane. I'm not a hand tool
> > person, for most stuff I use power tools and get done faster.Still, you
> > want one. Planing is fun, and more accurate than belt sanding ordisk
> > grinding. It makes a nice surface, you don't spend as much timesanding
> > off marks, or as much time breathing dust. It's functionallybetter than
> > power tools for a lot of stuff, and it's quiet, peaceful, just anice way
> > to spend an afternoon.
> > ...
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@b...>
>http://www.boat-links.com/
> People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading.
> <Logan Pearsall Smith>
A good, sharp handplane is a pleasure to use, and you've got plenty of time
to make sure you're not making a Big Mistake. Power planes are noisy, scary
and nerve-wracking to use, and you can make a Big Mistake so quick it'll
make your head spin! If you can, get ahold of an old plane, they just don't
make them like they used to, but for plywood boats a modern Stanley or
Record low-angle block plane will do well enough.
to make sure you're not making a Big Mistake. Power planes are noisy, scary
and nerve-wracking to use, and you can make a Big Mistake so quick it'll
make your head spin! If you can, get ahold of an old plane, they just don't
make them like they used to, but for plywood boats a modern Stanley or
Record low-angle block plane will do well enough.
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:32:48 -0000, Kevin wrote:
> I have to agree, you don't *need* a plane. I'm not a hand tool sort of
> person, for most stuff I use power tools and get done faster. Still, you
> want one. Planing is fun, and more accurate than belt sanding or disk
> grinding. It makes a nice surface, you don't spend as much time sanding
> off marks, or as much time breathing dust. It's functionally better than
> power tools for a lot of stuff, and it's quiet, peaceful, just a nice way
> to spend an afternoon.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading.
<Logan Pearsall Smith>
I have to agree, you don't *need* a plane. I'm not a hand tool sort of person, for most stuff I use power tools and get done faster. Still, you want one. Planing is fun, and more accurate than belt sanding or disk grinding. It makes a nice surface, you don't spend as much time sanding off marks, or as much time breathing dust. It's functionally better than power tools for a lot of stuff, and it's quiet, peaceful, just a nice way to spend an afternoon. Unless, that is, your plane is dull, in which case it's hell on earth. Now, my dear old Dad is an electrical engineer, and can't cut a board straight to save his life, so he didn't teach me his woodworking secrets, I've had to learn them from books and web sites and other less-than-traditional sources. Unless your old granpappy taught you at his knee, the best description of how to sharpen a plane I've seen is at:
http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM#original
Really works. Armed with this, glass, sandpaper, and ebay or your local flea market, you can pick up a few old planes in various sizes (with good irons) and be much better equipped to have fun building a boat.
Best,
Kevin
http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM#original
Really works. Armed with this, glass, sandpaper, and ebay or your local flea market, you can pick up a few old planes in various sizes (with good irons) and be much better equipped to have fun building a boat.
Best,
Kevin