[bolger] Re: Boat building in the boonies aka,WINDERMERE update.

What about vacuum bagging guys? I'm not suggesting it, I'm just just asking if it's feasible since I know very little about it.. Would it not work in this application? - I've seen some big boats bagged online. Does it cost too much for equipment? - That's reasonable since you would only use it on the bottom(s). It seems like the labor of bagging would be minor compared to driving (and possibly removing) hundreds and hundreds of screws.

Stew,
Curious in KC



> By-the-way, Bolger's plan for
> Dakota has a section detail view of the multi-layered bottom and shoe
> showing the screws left buried within the layers.
Peter,

You've obviously researched this more extensively than I have. At any
rate, it is a moot issue for me. The deed is done. I have lots of coated
deck screws buried in the multiple layers of my Dakota's bottom and
shoe. Since I built right side up, the screws are all pointed downward
from the layers above. I have not glassed the inside of the hull bottom.
I do have a single coat of epoxy on it. By-the-way, Bolger's plan for
Dakota has a section detail view of the multi-layered bottom and shoe
showing the screws left buried within the layers.

Vince
Vince,
There are indeed many older wooden boats up this way which have
gone through the freeze/thaw cycle without any apparent problems from
the steel fasteners however,my concern focuses on the so called
epoxy"encapsulated" variety of boat.With traditional/conventional
boat building,most of the structure can maintain a relatively
balanced level of moisture content relative to the atmosphere.Things
tend to take up or release moisture in a uniform fashion.
With the epoxy encapsulation process,on the other hand,this
dynamic element is thwarted somewhat by the presence of the barrier
of epoxy.With epoxy not being 100% waterproof(it will allow the
migration of water molecules),over time the underlaying wood may
contain a moisture level greater then the atmosphere would naturally
support.Also,it would appear that,somewhat like Gortex,it is easier
for moisture to enter the wood through the epoxy then to go the other
way ie;escape from the wood.
Anyway,these are the essentials of what I have understood
through various books/articles on the subject of the effectiveness of
epoxy.I suppose that with a pure cold molded structure,free of
metal,the whole structure expands or contracts in a uniform fashion
without little bits of steel reacting at different rates and creating
potentially hundreds of little(very little!) pockets to gather up
moisture.
But maybe this is all just blown out of proportion and I'm just
revealing my own little obsessive nature?
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,glad that no one took any pictures of me on my knees
injecting epoxy into several hundred empty screw holes with
syringes"borrowed" from work............






--- In bolger@y..., Vince and Mary Ann Chew <vachew@v...> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Please elaborate on your concern about metal fastenings and the
> freeze-thaw cycle. Aren't there still lots of older wood boats with
> metal fastenings in your area that have lived through hundreds of
> freeze-thaw cycles and yet sail on year after year?
>
> Vince Chew
Peter,

Please elaborate on your concern about metal fastenings and the
freeze-thaw cycle. Aren't there still lots of older wood boats with
metal fastenings in your area that have lived through hundreds of
freeze-thaw cycles and yet sail on year after year?

Vince Chew
would generate many sleepless nights,especially after a few
> Canadian winters.Perhaps your climate is gentler? The
> freeze-thaw cycle up here would not leave things alone for
> long!

I hadn't thought of that kind of weather. I would hope that
bronze ring shank anchored in epoxy wouldn't move. We'll see I
guess. 1/2 the nail heads in the boat are covered with the
third plywood layer, the others are under the cloth. On the
next two sections, I'll make sure I flip the hull the at least
if they ever came up, it'll be into the cabin, not out the
bottom. Excellant point!!!

Jeff
> Jeff,
> catsup(ketchup) in January sounds good for
> consistency.You are,of
> course,right on regarding the idea of ensuring good
> penetration by keeping the epoxy liquid enough to do so.
> The thought of keeping so many metal fasteners in my
> boats bottom
> would generate many sleepless nights,especially after a few
> Canadian winters.Perhaps your climate is gentler? The
> freeze-thaw cycle up here would not leave things alone for
> long!
> Continued success with your WYO project.I envie you like
> the
> devil for having your shop so close to home!!! I gotta drive
> 40 odd minutes off island to see my baby...........
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,WINDERMERE builder and glad to be
> busy,..........
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
>> I would also be interested in how others do this as the Wyo
>> uses 39 sheets for her bottom. The way I did the first
>> part of
>> the hull bottom was to use epoxy and wood floor to a
>> consistance of a catsup. Then spread it around with a
>> notched
>> trowel. I did prime the bottom layer first but not the top
>> layer, it went on dry. I figured there was enough excess
>> epoxy
>> to soak in good enough. I fastened per PBF using 7/8 inch
>> boat
>> nails on the first 2 layers of 1/2 inch ply, on the third
>> layer
>> I used 1 1/4 inch boat nails. All spaced about every 8 to
>> 10
>> square inches.
>>
>> Jeff
>
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Jeff,
catsup(ketchup) in January sounds good for consistency.You are,of
course,right on regarding the idea of ensuring good penetration by
keeping the epoxy liquid enough to do so.
The thought of keeping so many metal fasteners in my boats bottom
would generate many sleepless nights,especially after a few Canadian
winters.Perhaps your climate is gentler? The freeze-thaw cycle up
here would not leave things alone for long!
Continued success with your WYO project.I envie you like the
devil for having your shop so close to home!!! I gotta drive 40 odd
minutes off island to see my baby...........
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,WINDERMERE builder and glad to be busy,..........




--- In bolger@y..., <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> I would also be interested in how others do this as the Wyo
> uses 39 sheets for her bottom. The way I did the first part of
> the hull bottom was to use epoxy and wood floor to a
> consistance of a catsup. Then spread it around with a notched
> trowel. I did prime the bottom layer first but not the top
> layer, it went on dry. I figured there was enough excess epoxy
> to soak in good enough. I fastened per PBF using 7/8 inch boat
> nails on the first 2 layers of 1/2 inch ply, on the third layer
> I used 1 1/4 inch boat nails. All spaced about every 8 to 10
> square inches.
>
> Jeff
Frank,
Sorry about the delay in getting on the group,been busy.......
Now,as to the amount of epoxy per 4X8 sheet;on average(since the
bottom is not a rectangular but tapers) I was using 1800ml delivered
in three batches of 600ml.For thickening,cotton fibers.As to
consistency,thick enough to just barely run off the end of the stir-
stick.To my way of thinking and based on experience,the mix should
not be too thick as this may indicated that your thickening agent is
holding all the resin with little left over to penetrate the wood
surfaces.
The panels were all secured to each other with the help of wood
flooring screws....much tougher then the dry-wall screws recommended
by PCB.I believe fellow group member,Jamie Orr,owner/builder of one
lovely Chebacco(!) mentioned this some time ago.I can now say with
confidence that I too HIGHLY recommend the flooring screw method.
(Thanks Jamie!)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who would also recommend buying knees pads for big
bottoms,from the shores of the God-awefully-muggy shores of the
St.Lawrence..........






--- In bolger@y..., "sanmi" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Exciting!!!
>
> When doing the bottom lamination how much epoxy did you use per 4x8
> sheet? What did you use for thickening? What consistency (syrup,
> catsup, peanut butter, etc)...
>
> Frank
> Wilminton, DE, USA
I chose 3/4 because I had some 3/8 ply to use and PB said 1/2 or 3/4
was well advised if weight wasn't an issue (frequent trailering)
which it wasn't for me. Also someone else's quote about large people
jumping down from a high dock and going right through stuck in my
mind. My cockpit deck will be 1/2" with the rerinforcing beams and
cabin roof also 1/2", made up of 2 courses of 1/4", with beams, all
for the same reason.

I'm 230 pounds on a good day, and I've had to land from some pretty
tall piers.
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
> What I did on my Micro was to double the bottom of two thicknesses
of
> 3/8 to finish with a 3/4" bottom.
>
Bruce, I have the plans for a Micro and I'm curious as to why you
went to 3/4 inch for the bottom. I was thinking maybe a 1/2 inch on
the bottom. Of course that's only a little quarter difference.
What I did on my Micro was to double the bottom of two thicknesses of
3/8 to finish with a 3/4" bottom.

Like you, we mixed up epoxy with my finest sawdust (from a boat shops
bandsaw) to a consistency of ketsup and spred it around with a
notched plastic body fill spreader. Looked like an aerial photo of a
plowed field. Then we lowered the rough cut (oversize) second panel
and drove drywall screws at a stagered pattern with about 5 inches
between the screws. The next day we removed all the screw and filled
the holes with thicken epoxy.

Note, we should have shored up the bottom in between the bulkheads. I
now have a slightly concave (or is it convex) bottom caused, no
doubt, from the weight of the screwing team crawling on it as they
drove the screws. Perhaps the weight of the keel will draw it down a
tad, perhaps it'll just make my hard chines, a litte harder.
> When doing the bottom lamination how much epoxy did you use
> per 4x8 sheet? What did you use for thickening? What
> consistency (syrup, catsup, peanut butter, etc)...

I would also be interested in how others do this as the Wyo
uses 39 sheets for her bottom. The way I did the first part of
the hull bottom was to use epoxy and wood floor to a
consistance of a catsup. Then spread it around with a notched
trowel. I did prime the bottom layer first but not the top
layer, it went on dry. I figured there was enough excess epoxy
to soak in good enough. I fastened per PBF using 7/8 inch boat
nails on the first 2 layers of 1/2 inch ply, on the third layer
I used 1 1/4 inch boat nails. All spaced about every 8 to 10
square inches.

Jeff
Peter,

Exciting!!!

When doing the bottom lamination how much epoxy did you use per 4x8
sheet? What did you use for thickening? What consistency (syrup,
catsup, peanut butter, etc)...

Frank
Wilminton, DE, USA

--- In bolger@y..., "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
wrote:
> laminating of the bottom which required 16 sheets of plywood set in
a
> thick base of epoxy and all held/clamped together by a few hundred
> screws,
Frank,
Sorry but no web page yet(too busy!) but you can view a couple of
pictures over on Bolger2 in the files section.More pictures will be
along soon!
Peter



--- In bolger@y..., Frank Bales <frank_bales@y...> wrote:
>
> Do you have a website for Windermere, Peter? Or someplace photos
are located?
>
> FB
>
>
>
> Frank Bales--From Beautiful Staunton, VAhttp://www.staunton.va.us
>
> "So great has been the endurance, so incredible the achievement,
that, as long as the sun keeps a set course in heaven, it would be
foolish to despair of the human race." --Ernest L. Woodward
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In bolger@y..., "John Bell" <jmbell@m...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
> | And so the day closed with Bruce headed back to Kingston
with
> | the fixin's to complete his MICRO layed out in his truck bed
fresh
> | from Jim Bell's sunny southern abode and I was offer to pick up
my
> | attorney..........
>
>
> Why does everybody call me Jim? ;-)
>
> JB

I'm jorry John!
I juess I jas just too jusy and jisdracted at jork and completely
made a booboo of your name!! It won't jappen again,jromise!

Jincerely,
Patrick Lenihan,again busy at jork along the shores of the
St.Jarwence.......;-)
John, I never called you Jim.

John


--- In bolger@y..., "John Bell" <jmbell@m...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
> | And so the day closed with Bruce headed back to Kingston
with
> | the fixin's to complete his MICRO layed out in his truck bed
fresh
> | from Jim Bell's sunny southern abode and I was offer to pick up
my
> | attorney..........
>
>
> Why does everybody call me Jim? ;-)
>
> JB
'Cause your email address is jmbell@... ?

S2 Miller


> Why does everybody call me Jim? ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@...>
| And so the day closed with Bruce headed back to Kingston with
| the fixin's to complete his MICRO layed out in his truck bed fresh
| from Jim Bell's sunny southern abode and I was offer to pick up my
| attorney..........


Why does everybody call me Jim? ;-)

JB
While building the klondike boat, Fritz did considerable research on
screws to see if they would pass muster with our authenticity police. He
found that indeed, slotted screws were around and common at the turn of
the century. The thing that absolutely floored him (and us) was what he
found out about the ubiquitous Phillips head screw. It was invented in
the auto industry in the 30's for the assembly lines before they had
clutches in screw drivers. It is designed to fail before over
tightening.

So all those decades since, when Americans have been cursing at Phillips
head screws stripping out (like they are supposed to), Canadians have
been happily driving there square drives home one after another. They
were actually invented before the Phillips head.

If you drove and backed out 900 Phillips head screws, you would probably
go through 10 bits.

HJ


> Screws have been the universal clamping force for all these
> large pieces.NOT drywall screws but good old wood floor screws with
> the Robertson drive heads(square drive)...a Canadian invention,eh? At
> any rate after driving and removing something close to 900
> screws,I'm pleased to report that not one of them snapped their
> heads off!
>
Do you have a website for Windermere, Peter? Or someplace photos are located?

FB



Frank Bales--From Beautiful Staunton, VAhttp://www.staunton.va.us

"So great has been the endurance, so incredible the achievement, that, as long as the sun keeps a set course in heaven, it would be foolish to despair of the human race." --Ernest L. Woodward





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolgerados,
For those who may be interested in knowing these sort of
things,I offer you an update on my WINDERMERE building project.
To date,the bottom has been laminated and covered with the
first layer of 10oz.glass,the center shoe(14'6" X 30" X 3 layers) has
been installed and faired,the forward box-keel"dry fitted",the cutout
for the outboard has been done and the four major bulkheads taped
together a la Payson taped seam method.
Sure doesn't sound like much considering this has consumed 6
long weekends but she is BIG(31' X 8').The building jig/strongback
alone took up most of the first two weekends.This was followed by the
laminating of the bottom which required 16 sheets of plywood set in a
thick base of epoxy and all held/clamped together by a few hundred
screws,which not only had to be driven in but also removed before the
epoxy completely cured!I now have blisters on my knees...of all
places!!
Then came the cutting out of the opening for the box-keel along with
the building of the sides for the box keel.While waiting for the lap
and glass joint on the box keel to set,the bottom area for the shoe
was sanded and glassed with 10oz cloth set in epoxy.Once this had
cured,a light sanding was given to it and the first layer of the shoe
was epoxied in place.....
Screws have been the universal clamping force for all these
large pieces.NOT drywall screws but good old wood floor screws with
the Robertson drive heads(square drive)...a Canadian invention,eh? At
any rate after driving and removing something close to 900
screws,I'm pleased to report that not one of them snapped their
heads off!
So far,I have been blessed with not a drop of rain on one of
those weekends and the visits from two group members.Paul Simard,who
aspires to build himself a CHAMPLAIN one day and judging by the
photos of his shop attached to his house(!) he should begin really
soon!(Now you have no excuses Paul ;-) )
Bruce Hector also dropped by this very past Monday to check
things out.You can always tell when you are dealing with an over-
active inspired imagination when Bruce suggests closing in the sides
of the jig/strongback and launching a barge!Talk about quick-n-dirty!
Anyway,it sure would be a fine form for a barge-houseboat to further
keep Bruce busy with his fleet! Unfortunately,Bruce came by late in
the day just as I was finishing up glassing the forward part of the
bottom and I had to "score" some points with my Pesky Crew by
fetching herself from work.......but not late enough to forgo a cold
beer generously offered to one thirsty/hot/tired builder(THANK YOU
BRUCE!!!I owe you........)
And so the day closed with Bruce headed back to Kingston with
the fixin's to complete his MICRO layed out in his truck bed fresh
from Jim Bell's sunny southern abode and I was offer to pick up my
attorney..........
Another roll has just been finished and will be developed in a
day or two.Pictures will be posted soon.Or at least in the not too
distant future.
C'est toute!

Peter Lenihan,catching up on the internet thing from the very muggy
shores of the St.Lawrence..........