Re: A new boat, rubber cement and canvas

Something I haven't heard mentioned yet is canvas and rubber cement.
You squeegee the rubber cement onto toe wood then cover the wood side
of the canvas the same way, all cut to the correct size before
gluing. Some sew the canvas together and some just join the pieces
with thin lath strips. then you squeegee into the top of the canvas
another layer of rubber cement. This is all done with very good
ventilation and no open flames by the way. After 24 hours paint it
with latex house paint. I prefer gloss because it seems to make it
even more water proof. I would do that both inside and out but you
must cover all points water might get into very well.

It is not the smoothest finish in the world but it is hell for
strong and very forgiving for a beginner to use.. During the late
50's and early 60's it was a boat building fad. An old friend once
had his boat come off the trailer at 60mph on th SF bay bridge and it
passed him as he slowed down to retrieve it. When he got to our house
and checked the boat out it was fine! It barely rubbed into the next
coat of paint. The canvas succumbs to UV rays after about 10 years so
it isn't a lifetime finish but it is quick and dirty. They have new
forms of nylon you can also use but then your getting into the
fiberglass cost range again. It is the only other water seal for wood
that I would recommend for cheap wood.

--- In bolger@y..., "Ken" <renueden@e...> wrote:
> well i'm kind of torn on this. what are the alternatives to
glassing? i
> wouldn't mind periodic maintenance. it seems that paint of any
kind would
> scratch off on the first beaching. i don't have much experience,
yet...
> Ken

well i'm kind of torn on this. what are the alternatives to glassing? i
wouldn't mind periodic maintenance. it seems that paint of any kind would
scratch off on the first beaching. i don't have much experience, yet...
Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 8:39 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: A new boat

>
> > > because it rots easily. I know if it is glassed, regardless of
> > > ground contact, moisture in the environment snow and ice buildup
> its
> > > there.
> >
> > What is the environmaental issues....
> > Ken
>
> Well it isn't the nicest stuff to work with. Grinding it is probably
> the equivalent of dusting your neighbours lawns with asbestos. But
> really I was just thinking of the fact that there are cases where non-
> glass boat is sufficient for all the use on has in mind, and you
> don't end up with a permanent plastic object that will last for ever
> clutering up the landfill. On the positive, if one thinks the boat
> is something to hand down from generation to generation a really
> complete glassing will ensure it lasts and that the great wood that
> went into it will really get full use.
>
> This is one of the most subjective areas, and I sure wouldn't try to
> tell someone else what to do.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I have found this an interesting discussion as I have just come
inside from grinding out some rot in the transom of my Diablo. water
got behind the transom support and crept up into the motor support
and eventually into some of the transom. I am now covered in dust
from head to toe, and have not got to the end of the rotted places
yet. I am tempted to cut her up and start again, but I think I can
patch and sand, but am looking at at least two full days of work
here. this particular boat was built of AC ply, and glued up with
epoxy. It is glassed on the exterior. I am considering glassing
both the interior and exterior on the next boat.

David Jost
"scratching and itching, should have gone out in Micro today
instead!"

> > > because it rots easily. I know if it is glassed, regardless of
> > > ground contact, moisture in the environment snow and ice

buildup

> its
> > > there.
> >
> > What is the environmaental issues....
> > Ken
>
> Well it isn't the nicest stuff to work with. Grinding it is

probably

> the equivalent of dusting your neighbours lawns with asbestos. But
> really I was just thinking of the fact that there are cases where

non-

> glass boat is sufficient for all the use on has in mind, and you
> don't end up with a permanent plastic object that will last for

ever

> clutering up the landfill. On the positive, if one thinks the boat
> is something to hand down from generation to generation a really
> complete glassing will ensure it lasts and that the great wood that
> went into it will really get full use.
>
> This is one of the most subjective areas, and I sure wouldn't try

> tell someone else what to do.

> > because it rots easily. I know if it is glassed, regardless of
> > ground contact, moisture in the environment snow and ice buildup

its

> > there.
>
> What is the environmaental issues....
> Ken

Well it isn't the nicest stuff to work with. Grinding it is probably
the equivalent of dusting your neighbours lawns with asbestos. But
really I was just thinking of the fact that there are cases where non-
glass boat is sufficient for all the use on has in mind, and you
don't end up with a permanent plastic object that will last for ever
clutering up the landfill. On the positive, if one thinks the boat
is something to hand down from generation to generation a really
complete glassing will ensure it lasts and that the great wood that
went into it will really get full use.

This is one of the most subjective areas, and I sure wouldn't try to
tell someone else what to do.

Sorry, Lincoln, but I have no idea.

--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> Did it say "Chesapeake Hardwood Pruducts" on it? I got some from there
> with aforementioned brand. Did so-so on boil test.
> --- In bolger@y..., "owlnmole" <owlnmole@y...> wrote:
> > Home Despot, err Depot, in Natick as I remember.
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> > >I've had good results from some older luan (where did you get
> > > it, Matthew?)

> I agree, you will get a range of results. Glassing a boat all over
> is both expensive, and an environmental issue. But it is the only
> way to be sure the thing will last. As far as I know there isn't any
> marine grade luan (there may but it hasn't crossed my path) That's
> because it rots easily. I know if it is glassed, regardless of
> ground contact, moisture in the environment snow and ice buildup its
> there.

What is the environmaental issues....
Ken

Okay, I get the point about the poly resin. I'm going to have to
think that one through a little more. I'm just cheap at heart.

I may have to do the boil test on the plywood. I've read a lot of
good things, even in "Build the New Instant Boats", abou luan, but
agree the qua;ity may vary. Maybe I should leave a piece out in the
snow this year, and see what it looks like in the spring. I do want
to keep the boat light, and the DF plywood in So Cal is heavy.

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming!!!

Stephen

--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> I have finally ventured off into boatbuilding. I ordered the plans
> for Cartopper from Mr. Payson, and eagerly await their arrival. I
> have read a zillion books, magazines, and internet topics on
> everything from plywood to epoxy to coloidal silica. I even
cleaned
> up the boatbuilding shop.
>
> I plan on using the following materials:
> 1/4 lauan plywood
> 6 oz. fiberglass cloth
> Fiberglass tape
> #18 wire nails
> Evercoat boatyard resin (polyester)
> wood flour and cabosil for a thickener
> paint?? probably some kind of exterior enamel from Home Depot
>
> I hoping to have the boat done for next spring. I just need to
find
> the time, and the right weather conditions. I think it may be too
> cold during the winter to work with the resin.
>
> Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Stephen

--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:

> Did it say "Chesapeake Hardwood Pruducts" on it? I got some from

there

> with aforementioned brand. Did so-so on boil test.
> --- In bolger@y..., "owlnmole" <owlnmole@y...> wrote:
> > Home Despot, err Depot, in Natick as I remember.
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> > >I've had good results from some older luan (where did you get
> > > it, Matthew?)

I don't like the look of the stuff they have at the HDs up here. I
went to a plywood supplier, Robert Burey, and got 30 sheets. It was
perfect. But I hear a lot of stories of bad stuff these days, I
don't even know if RB is still out there.

> Actually, if the luan is good, you probably don't have to glass it
> all. At least we didn't. Matthew Long built our boat several years

ago

> and it's holding up fine with paint, with no checking. Maybe if it

was

> kept in the water all the time or something it might be another

story.

> I have two other boats which I think are luan which have resisted

the

> weather for significant time, on one of them with no paint at all.
> It's just the luan I can find now which doesn't seem so great.
>

I agree, you will get a range of results. Glassing a boat all over
is both expensive, and an environmental issue. But it is the only
way to be sure the thing will last. As far as I know there isn't any
marine grade luan (there may but it hasn't crossed my path) That's
because it rots easily. I know if it is glassed, regardless of
ground contact, moisture in the environment snow and ice buildup its
there.

> > top veneers where all the loads are.
>
> Actually, the veneer thickness on luan provides comparable

properties

> in both directions. I've run the numbers. On fir the inner ply is

> thin it's almost useless.

Right and on Luan the reverse is true. If you were building book
shelves how would you feel about 24 mm material with top venners
of .6 running the length of the shelf. I'd prefer to have 8/8/8. SO
the big question is are you taking off loads on the mid ply (which is
probably just butt jointed at the panel edge, or are we just hopeing
that the top veneer won't peel?) obviously not on the shelf, and if
your boat is built right it isn't all that different.

When I step in a boat with 1/4" ply, I'm

> pretty sure some of the loads run both ways.

It's like stepping on a simple bridge. Two trusses running from
river side to side. The decking is tranverse plywood, with the top
veneers perp to the trusses. It's all the top veneers, except to the
extent that maybe you have a dutchman right under you foot, and the
inner plies help spread your weight to other top plies. But without
perp aligned top plies your either going to have to have much heavier
ply, or some other structure, or your going for a swim.

One of my suppliers lists 5.2 mm luan that is a luan core of 3.2 or
thereabout. You can find 25/50/25 fir with a core the same size.

If what you are saying is the panel is more ballance in the way it
pick up loads that the fir I'm with you. But there are other
factors. There is the fact fir is thicker to start with. If we are
talking about a full marine panel with 6mm mahog, that's different
The Luan I am seing is 5.2-5.5 mm, so there is a big drop on that
basis alone. Second, the luan achieves this ballance with paper thin
rotary top veneers, which is a problem. I comonly see .6mm on the
sanded face. But whatever you say, if you have 5.5 with a core of
3.5, the panel bends one way like a 5.5 piece of wood and the other
like a 3.5 piece of wood. So if you are aligning the top grain with
the short hop, as bolger often does with his larger boats, you would
probably have the top veneers break before much gets to the mid
veneer. Your in the ballpark of 125-27 on a stiffness basis. If the
top veneers run the length, then let's hope there is a bulkhead,
water pressure, or some glass to help out.

Since I have built a number of boats with tortured ply I'm used to
bending the stuff. Try bending it to the smallest radii you can
manage until it goes bang! There is no comparison based on grain
direction, and that is what you are up against trying to take loads
off perp to the topsheat grain.

i'd prefer

> not to glass over and if so not with heavy glass.

4 oz is fine. Who said anything about wanting to. I don't have a
horse in the "How biodegradeable my boat is race". Composting is a
fine thing. I've built some boats I wouldn't mind seeing receed into
the landscape. On the other hand the toredo worms are moving north,
and I would like to get off the boat before it falls appart. I flit
back and forth between this culture and the culture over at multihull
boatbuilding. There everyone seems to want to build a $150 000, 40'
catamaran, and some are using luan, or mahog ply. I'f I am going to
put 5000 hours in a project It better be glassed. As long as we
aren't kidding ourselves about the longevity under discusion here.

> >
> >
> snip
> I want my boil proof luan! Wah!

I'd want to boil your luan too!

> Actually, if the luan is good, you probably don't have to glass it
> all. At least we didn't. Matthew Long built our boat several years

ago

> and it's holding up fine with paint, with no checking. Maybe if it

was

> kept in the water all the time or something it might be another

story.

> I have two other boats which I think are luan which have resisted

the

> weather for significant time, on one of them with no paint at all.
> It's just the luan I can find now which doesn't seem so great.
>

> > top veneers where all the loads are.
>
> Actually, the veneer thickness on luan provides comparable

properties

> in both directions. I've run the numbers. On fir the inner ply is

> thin it's almost useless.

> pretty sure some of the loads run both ways.

> not to glass over and if so not with heavy glass.

> >
> >
> snip
> I want my boil proof luan! Wah!

I'd want to boil your luan too!

Did it say "Chesapeake Hardwood Pruducts" on it? I got some from there
with aforementioned brand. Did so-so on boil test.

--- In bolger@y..., "owlnmole" <owlnmole@y...> wrote:
> Home Despot, err Depot, in Natick as I remember.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> >I've had good results from some older luan (where did you get
> > it, Matthew?)

The proud Papa smiles.

--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> Matthew Long built our boat several years ago
> and it's holding up fine with paint, with no checking.

Home Despot, err Depot, in Natick as I remember.

--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
>I've had good results from some older luan (where did you get
> it, Matthew?)

see below

--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> I have built a bunch of boats using luan, and haven't had any
> problems, I don't particularly care if it boil tests, though I have
> done that, and had good results. But you need glass on all exterior
> surfaces, and on a small boat that is every surface!

Actually, if the luan is good, you probably don't have to glass it
all. At least we didn't. Matthew Long built our boat several years ago
and it's holding up fine with paint, with no checking. Maybe if it was
kept in the water all the time or something it might be another story.
I have two other boats which I think are luan which have resisted the
weather for significant time, on one of them with no paint at all.
It's just the luan I can find now which doesn't seem so great.

> I think the combo of luan and poly is asking for trouble.
Agreed, based on personal experience.
snip
>
> By the way, I don't agree that those 5.5 mm luans are better than
> good old D-Fir ply in a boat. If you could find D-Fir without voids
> that is (good luck so in the real world you're back to luan or
> better). The 3 equal plies stuff is great for boats, with good
beefy
> top veneers where all the loads are.

Actually, the veneer thickness on luan provides comparable properties
in both directions. I've run the numbers. On fir the inner ply is so
thin it's almost useless. When I step in a boat with 1/4" ply, I'm
pretty sure some of the loads run both ways.

> The transverse loads in a boat
> are probably not making it to the inner plies. You need massive
> panel deformation before the interior plies pick up much of
anything, in the order of 1"/1'.

See above, not true on luan. Applies to fir, tho.

With the D-fir you pick almost 1 MM of
> thickness, about 25% for strength, and 45% on stiffness.
But only in one direction.
> With the
> bulkheads, epoxy and glass, I don't see the inner plies being all
> that relevant. I mean, you can plank a boat with 1/4" real wood.

Yes, if that's the way it's designed or if you glass over. I'd prefer
not to glass over and if so not with heavy glass.
>
>
snip
I want my boil proof luan! Wah!

I have built a bunch of boats using luan, and haven't had any
problems, I don't particularly care if it boil tests, though I have
done that, and had good results. But you need glass on all exterior
surfaces, and on a small boat that is every surface! You go this
route, and you can get the USCG to certify your doorskins (they
better boil test).

I think the combo of luan and poly is asking for trouble. The whole
luan thing is based on total epoxy encapsulation. Even if the glue
is tops, the wood itself rots easily, it is clossest to pine
apparently. Payson has had success with poly, and it can be made to
adhere to plywood, but exterior D-Fir of the day was very rot
resistant. It checks badly, but I have had a few pieces outdoors
with ground contact holding up a mast for about 10 years, and it
hadn't rotted until quite recently. Jim Brown's Scrimshaw Searunner
31 is still going strong in Dfir and poly/glass after 30 some years.
But he wouldn't be able to do that today.

By the way, I don't agree that those 5.5 mm luans are better than
good old D-Fir ply in a boat. If you could find D-Fir without voids
that is (good luck so in the real world you're back to luan or
better). The 3 equal plies stuff is great for boats, with good beefy
top veneers where all the loads are. The transverse loads in a boat
are probably not making it to the inner plies. You need massive
panel deformation before the interior plies pick up much of anything,
in the order of 1"/1'. With the D-fir you pick almost 1 MM of
thickness, about 25% for strength, and 45% on stiffness. With the
bulkheads, epoxy and glass, I don't see the inner plies being all
that relevant. I mean, you can plank a boat with 1/4" real wood.

--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> I have finally ventured off into boatbuilding. I ordered the plans
> for Cartopper from Mr. Payson, and eagerly await their arrival. I
> have read a zillion books, magazines, and internet topics on
> everything from plywood to epoxy to coloidal silica. I even
cleaned
> up the boatbuilding shop.
>
> I plan on using the following materials:
> 1/4 lauan plywood
> 6 oz. fiberglass cloth
> Fiberglass tape
> #18 wire nails
> Evercoat boatyard resin (polyester)
> wood flour and cabosil for a thickener
> paint?? probably some kind of exterior enamel from Home Depot
>
> I hoping to have the boat done for next spring. I just need to
find
> the time, and the right weather conditions. I think it may be too
> cold during the winter to work with the resin.
>
> Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Stephen

Sounds good, but if you're going to do that much work, it might make
sense to use somewhat better materials. I have 5 sheets of luan left
over from my attempt to find some that acted like exterior plywood and
passed the boil test. THere used to be good luan, maybe you can still
find some. Structurally, it's better than the plywood that has 3
equal layers which is very flexible one way and stiff the other. It's
also relatively light. I suppose I could have built a boat and left it
outside for 2 years to test, but I'm not that patient. AC fir may give
better, if heavier, results, tho it has that flex problem I mentioned
above. An application of money can get you light, strong, waterproof
wood. I've had good results from some older luan (where did you get
it, Matthew?), though. Bad luck with polyester, though. Enough Raka
(www.Raka.com) to do a small boat is pretty cheap. Someone suggested
getting only the slow formula, but I wouldn't recommend that if you're
going to be building in cooler temperatures sometimes (say, below 75
or so?). I've used Raka with fast hardener at 50 degrees, or maybe a
little colder. I'll bet polyester with extra catalyst can go
considerably less than room temp, but I'm not sure. If you use
polyester, make sure it's fresh (less than 1 year old, I guess).
Otherwise, you may have a long wait for it to go off.

Acrylic latex seems to work well on epoxy and wood. No recommendations
on polyester except wash and sand that wax off, if that's the kind of
resin you get. Polyester REALLY stinks (I mean that literally, there
are in fact good applications for it). The hardener can do awful
things to your eyes, from what I hear, and it comes in a little tube
you have to stab with a needle which I can imagine making it squirt,
so have goggles and a bottle full of water to rinse your eyes just in
case. Epoxy can have hazards too, tho, so don't get complacent if you
go that route. Use gloves and caution with either, and wear a mask
when handling Cabosil. Cabosil (actually, I use fumed silica)and wood
flour work well together.

--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> I have finally ventured off into boatbuilding. I ordered the plans
> for Cartopper from Mr. Payson, and eagerly await their arrival. I
> have read a zillion books, magazines, and internet topics on
> everything from plywood to epoxy to coloidal silica. I even cleaned
> up the boatbuilding shop.
>
> I plan on using the following materials:
> 1/4 lauan plywood
> 6 oz. fiberglass cloth
> Fiberglass tape
> #18 wire nails
> Evercoat boatyard resin (polyester)
> wood flour and cabosil for a thickener
> paint?? probably some kind of exterior enamel from Home Depot
>
> I hoping to have the boat done for next spring. I just need to find
> the time, and the right weather conditions. I think it may be too
> cold during the winter to work with the resin.
>
> Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Stephen

>
>
> > Evercoat boatyard resin (polyester)
>

Congrats on your decision to build a boat. You'll enjoy it!

A comment on polyester resin. Don't use it. On my Frolic sail boat I had
to reshape the leeboard so it wouldn't chatter. I was out of epoxy so
slipped down to the Hdwe store and got some polyester resin. It was
obnoxious to work with and had a very fast set time. Let alone toxic and
your neighbors will love the smell.

First, my paint started falling off within a month so obviously it takes
more sanding and prep work. Secondly, I thought I had covered it well to
stop water but by the end of the summer the plywood was swelling from water
intrusion. ( no glass tape on the edges). I eventually sanded and sanded
to get down to bare wood and used epoxy instead.

From RAKA, it's not much more for epoxy than it is for polyester resin. I
would doubt it would cost more than $10.00 difference if not closer to the
same price.

Many have used the resin with good results and I'm sure it can be done but
you'll never regret using epoxy.

Jeff

Stephen, congratulations on the big decision, you'll have a blast
building her.

Comments, I'd ditch the polyester resin and use epoxy. This is a
stitch and glue design and the epoxied seams are the boats only real
strength. I know it costs more (but if the boat falls apart in one
season polyester may be too expensive) but I've had NO luck with
poly. I just can't get the stuff to stick to plywood. The morning
after we glassed my Diablo's bootom using poly resin it all stripped
right off, we had to redo with epoxy and of course wasted a lot of
cloth.

Is the luan a marine plywood? If not I suggest switching for the same
reasons. We're currentl fighting a losing battle with ply
delamination in a Pirogue we made with cheap Mahogany door skins,
never again!

I know she'll float and that you'll have a ball with her, but for how
long?

Bruce Hector
www.brucesboats.com

>I have finally ventured off into boatbuilding. I ordered the plans
>for Cartopper from Mr. Payson, and eagerly await their arrival. I
>have read a zillion books, magazines, and internet topics on
>everything from plywood to epoxy to coloidal silica. I even cleaned
>up the boatbuilding shop.
>
>I plan on using the following materials:

> Evercoat boatyard resin (polyester)

>Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>

DON'T use polyester resin. Aside from the fact that most people think
it's inferior to epoxy, it's nasty, stinky, poisonous stuff.

Get yourself a 1.5 gallon epoxy kit from Raka (www.raka.com). If this
is your first resin project, get the slow hardener. That way you'll
have plenty of time to work with it. If you're hoping to launch next
spring you'll have plenty of time to let it set up. With a little
ventilation you can use epoxy indoors without killing anyone or
lowering your (or your childrens') IQ. Also, epoxy cleans up with
white vinegar, cutting down on the overall toxicity of the project.

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296

I have finally ventured off into boatbuilding. I ordered the plans
for Cartopper from Mr. Payson, and eagerly await their arrival. I
have read a zillion books, magazines, and internet topics on
everything from plywood to epoxy to coloidal silica. I even cleaned
up the boatbuilding shop.

I plan on using the following materials:
1/4 lauan plywood
6 oz. fiberglass cloth
Fiberglass tape
#18 wire nails
Evercoat boatyard resin (polyester)
wood flour and cabosil for a thickener
paint?? probably some kind of exterior enamel from Home Depot

I hoping to have the boat done for next spring. I just need to find
the time, and the right weather conditions. I think it may be too
cold during the winter to work with the resin.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Stephen