Re: Plywood for Cartopper
>plywood in
> Interesting concept!
>
> I wonder how the properties of this material compares to that of
> terms of weight, strength, bending radius, etc.? The site gives anumber of
> figures for physical properties for three different densities offrom those
> polyeurethane foam, but I'm too ignorant to draw any conclusions
> figures.The stuff I had compared cosely to balsa, but that was years ago.
Balsa's features are better shear and compresion performance than
ply. Basicaly trying to slide the skins of it, or compress it as
with walking loads, it outperforms plywood. This is not surprising,
since wood is soft accross the grain, and is not bonded 100% when
butted at 90 degrees.
Balsa which isn't all that light gives better performance than 3/4"
ply, for the weight of 3/8" ply. Which means that if you replace
3/8" ply with a core, the bending radius you get is worse than you
would get from 3/4" ply, it is less flexible.
>for use in
> I suspect the "direct replacement for Marine Plywood" is intended
> interior fitments, deck reinforcements and the like, rather than astructural
> skin and would need additional laminations to substitute forplywood in the
> latter application.I think you are right, though sometimes these furniture elements are
structural. On boats under 30 feet (just a handy number), the
governing loads are walking loads, so decks are more point load
stressed than hulls, so no further skins would be required except for
all the usual nasty stuff like grounding and so forth, but water
loads are usualy pretty light. That is just generalisation, but you
can work out relative stuff by looking a the wetted surface area, vs
the displacement, and then thinking high heel.
Have you made any inquiries about price, availability,
> etc.? I get the impression that they are producing on order forboatbuilding
> manufacturers' specific needs, not supplying the indigent DIY
> community.Possibly, but they are very generous with samples. It isn't one of
the top 5 cores, so any kind of promotion may help.
They have definitely identified a serious problem in the use of
> plywood as transom reinforcement in factory produced fiberglassboats. OTH,
> boat manufacturers may regard this failing as a boon (i.e. "built-in
> obsolescence").this stuff?
>
> Could an indigent DIY builder could vacuum bag the equivalent of
Absolutely, if it is anything like Baltec Duracore, you could buy the
Baltec core, and laminate it with nice luan and creat almost as nice
a product as with the duracore. The Kurt Hughes Deck method is
cool. You spring a curve in some decent luan, over whatever, use
your shop vac to bag the core, though in practice you can hand lay it
like tile over troweled bog. The you glass with triaxial, or you can
bag a second door skin. These decks can be made in a number of ways,
but they are come out feeling like concrete when you walk on them.
Hulls can be made the same way.
> Would that be any cheaper than buying expensive marine ply in smallunderlayment or
> quantities? Or laminating and sealing exterior ply or luan
Core costs more/square foot generaly than good luan, and less per
board foot than marine ply. You can save a lot of money or spend
more. If you have two layers of good luan over balsa, that can be
significantly cheapper than ply, say $2.60 a square foot, where equal
luan marine can be as much as 4-5 dollars, but if you lay core over
thing marine, and use triaxial, it might well be a little more
expensive.
Water damage isn't a real risk, if the boat is sealed, cores are
usualy going to ouperform marine ply, since they are a little more
resistant to water incursion. But if the boat is designed to the
saturation model with little encapsualtion, then while some cores
might be superior, overall, I think there could be huge problems,
like water getting into cells, and blowing up when a freeze settles
in.
In a message dated 8/28/02 3:34:29 PM Central Daylight Time,
pvanderw@...writes:
I wonder how the properties of this material compares to that of plywood in
terms of weight, strength, bending radius, etc.? The site gives a number of
figures for physical properties for three different densities of
polyeurethane foam, but I'm too ignorant to draw any conclusions from those
figures.
I suspect the "direct replacement for Marine Plywood" is intended for use in
interior fitments, deck reinforcements and the like, rather than a structural
skin and would need additional laminations to substitute for plywood in the
latter application. Have you made any inquiries about price, availability,
etc.? I get the impression that they are producing on order for
manufacturers' specific needs, not supplying the indigent DIY boatbuilding
community. They have definitely identified a serious problem in the use of
plywood as transom reinforcement in factory produced fiberglass boats. OTH,
boat manufacturers may regard this failing as a boon (i.e. "built-in
obsolescence").
Could an indigent DIY builder could vacuum bag the equivalent of this stuff?
Would that be any cheaper than buying expensive marine ply in small
quantities? Or laminating and sealing exterior ply or luan underlayment or
door skins or veneer or whatever? Unlike the use of plywood transom inserts
in mass-produced fiberglass boats, I don't think that the use of plywood in
properly constructed boats designed for the material poses any unreasonable
risk of premature rot, although I have no experience in that, as yet.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pvanderw@...writes:
> These folks have aInteresting concept!
> product they consider a direct replacement for ply. It's a foam with
> the first layer of cloth on each side (ready to wet out with resing,
> I think).
>
>http://www.fishingworld.com/Kayco-Composites/
>
I wonder how the properties of this material compares to that of plywood in
terms of weight, strength, bending radius, etc.? The site gives a number of
figures for physical properties for three different densities of
polyeurethane foam, but I'm too ignorant to draw any conclusions from those
figures.
I suspect the "direct replacement for Marine Plywood" is intended for use in
interior fitments, deck reinforcements and the like, rather than a structural
skin and would need additional laminations to substitute for plywood in the
latter application. Have you made any inquiries about price, availability,
etc.? I get the impression that they are producing on order for
manufacturers' specific needs, not supplying the indigent DIY boatbuilding
community. They have definitely identified a serious problem in the use of
plywood as transom reinforcement in factory produced fiberglass boats. OTH,
boat manufacturers may regard this failing as a boon (i.e. "built-in
obsolescence").
Could an indigent DIY builder could vacuum bag the equivalent of this stuff?
Would that be any cheaper than buying expensive marine ply in small
quantities? Or laminating and sealing exterior ply or luan underlayment or
door skins or veneer or whatever? Unlike the use of plywood transom inserts
in mass-produced fiberglass boats, I don't think that the use of plywood in
properly constructed boats designed for the material poses any unreasonable
risk of premature rot, although I have no experience in that, as yet.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you are looking for a substitute for marine ply, I would think
that the standard foams are the next choice. These folks have a
product they consider a direct replacement for ply. It's a foam with
the first layer of cloth on each side (ready to wet out with resing,
I think).
http://www.fishingworld.com/Kayco-Composites/
that the standard foams are the next choice. These folks have a
product they consider a direct replacement for ply. It's a foam with
the first layer of cloth on each side (ready to wet out with resing,
I think).
http://www.fishingworld.com/Kayco-Composites/
> > It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)24# ish.
--- In bolger@y..., Chris Lasdauskas <cml@t...> wrote:
puncture would not be well resisted, unless it lined up with a cell.
A big puncture however is usualy better, because cores are harder
than the "cores" in plywood which are side grain, so they resist
gross destruction better. Do not try to punch through it with your
fist since on that scale ply/core/ply is lighter and stronger all
around that similar ply. I was in a plane crash were one of the guys
smushed up against me had his head go through the nomex
honeycome/glass panel in the overhead lugage bin. He lived, so it
shows it can be done, but I wouldn't recomend it.
> This product is probably strong and stiff enough to use for the hullOn a small area, each cell is like a little void, so a nail sized
> skin, but how puncture resistant is it?
>
> Chris
>
puncture would not be well resisted, unless it lined up with a cell.
A big puncture however is usualy better, because cores are harder
than the "cores" in plywood which are side grain, so they resist
gross destruction better. Do not try to punch through it with your
fist since on that scale ply/core/ply is lighter and stronger all
around that similar ply. I was in a plane crash were one of the guys
smushed up against me had his head go through the nomex
honeycome/glass panel in the overhead lugage bin. He lived, so it
shows it can be done, but I wouldn't recomend it.
> gkaralus wrote:the
> >
> > I know this sounds like a blasfemy but here it goes:
> > I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
> > core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
> > (lauan/meranti )if you want.
> > Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all
> > seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in theinterior
> > panels to reduce weight.
> > It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
I know, the boat keeps sailing around in my head, and not in the
water. For me, half the fun is in the hunt. At this point I just
want to see if I can find some affordable Marine grade, like the
stuff thats floating around for $35 a sheet (no pun intended).
Stephen
water. For me, half the fun is in the hunt. At this point I just
want to see if I can find some affordable Marine grade, like the
stuff thats floating around for $35 a sheet (no pun intended).
Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> Stop searching. Get yourself some 1/4 and build the boat. A boat in
the
> water built out of OSB is more fun than a boat in your head built
out of
> okume
>
> On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 12:40 AM, smshatz wrote:
> >
> > My search for the perfect wood continues . . .
> >
Stop searching. Get yourself some 1/4 and build the boat. A boat in the
water built out of OSB is more fun than a boat in your head built out of
okume
water built out of OSB is more fun than a boat in your head built out of
okume
On Wednesday, August 28, 2002, at 12:40 AM, smshatz wrote:
>
> My search for the perfect wood continues . . .
>
Yea, you don't want the 1/4" stuff. The outer plys are thin veneers
of lauan over a thick layer of who knows what. A little void in that
middle layer is a huge hole cause its so thick. Even in the 1/8"
stuff the middle layer is thicker than the outers, but not enough to
make a difference.
Good hunting, John
of lauan over a thick layer of who knows what. A little void in that
middle layer is a huge hole cause its so thick. Even in the 1/8"
stuff the middle layer is thicker than the outers, but not enough to
make a difference.
Good hunting, John
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> Thanks for the info. I'm going to take another look at the Home
> Depot Selection. The wood I saw was 1/4", but I know they had 1/8"
> that I didn't really pay attention to.
>
> My search for the perfect wood continues . . .
>
> -Stephen
>
> I'd be willing to wager that this was a project that ended infrustration and
> failure!! I get shivers of Scheudenfreude (sic) contemplating theplight of
> the unfortunate, benighted owner attempting this task!Like I said there is less risk of this happening than with glassed
>
and epoxied wood.
Gougeons used extensive tricel resin inpregnated cardboard core in
their tris, including hulls. Adagio that made Sail's list of top 30
boats of the 20th century, or some such had Ply/tricel/10 oz glass
amas.
If bonded with Pl Premium, and coated with housepaint, then syringes
had best be ordered in quantity, otherwise, what's the deal? It has
to get through paint, glass, two layers of barrier coat epoxy, and
marine ply accross the whole skin. If that happens one hasn't been
reading the instructions.
> The literature I've seen on the subject generally recommendsrestricting the
> use of honeycombed sandwiches to decks, etc., presumably for thereason given
> by Bolger.
>
> Ciao for Niao,
> Bill in MN
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for the info. I'm going to take another look at the Home
Depot Selection. The wood I saw was 1/4", but I know they had 1/8"
that I didn't really pay attention to.
My search for the perfect wood continues . . .
-Stephen
Depot Selection. The wood I saw was 1/4", but I know they had 1/8"
that I didn't really pay attention to.
My search for the perfect wood continues . . .
-Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> > It seems hard to find doorskins (lauan plywood) with exterior
> glue.
> > I found a ragged looking batch at Home Depot that said "moisture
> > resistant", but after my failed boiling test this weekend I would
> be
> > leary about blowing another $10 to watch it fail.
>
> That's the stuff I used!
>
> Look at it this way, with a nice thick coat of epoxy in the
middle,
> it ain't going to delaminate but halfway through! And you've got 6
> veneers of wood there, as oppossed to three for your average 1/4"
> ply.
>
> Bright finished or not my boats don't get treated like princesses.
> They're stored outside under blue tarps. They've been cartopped or
> trailered miles upon miles. Sailed hard, turned turtle, swamped,
> dragged, filled sickenly high with muck, mud, beercans and
rainwater,
> one fell off my cartop once and emerged all but unscathed, while
> ripping my tail light lens off. Another spent about a month,
> unbeknownst to me, filled to the brim, on the trailer, with
> rainwater. It was so heavy a tire went flat. I guess the old tarp
> leaked like sieve!
>
> That particular hull dried out for about another month in our hot
CA
> sun and after some varnish (soon to be applied) will look as good
as
> new. There is no evidence of delamination on the lauan, and I've
> looked hard.
>
> I took lots of care in glassing all exposed edges, chines, stem and
> stern joints, but nothing else is glassed except the bottom. There
> are at least 3 coats of epoxy on everything, glassed or not. I had
> some condensation problems under a tarp, and had to sand away some
> bubbles that formed, but the bright-finished hulls are as sound now
> as the day I launched them. Will that be the case 10 years from
now?
> I don't know. At some point I may just paint them, to keep out even
> more of that nasty UV.
>
> For a small boat, epoxy sealed and dry sailed, I'd be more worried
> about voids in the plywood, then what glue was used.
>
> John
In a message dated 8/27/02 10:42:53 AM Central Daylight Time,
bruceh@...writes:
failure!! I get shivers of Scheudenfreude (sic) contemplating the plight of
the unfortunate, benighted owner attempting this task!
The literature I've seen on the subject generally recommends restricting the
use of honeycombed sandwiches to decks, etc., presumably for the reason given
by Bolger.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bruceh@...writes:
> PCB/PB&FI'd be willing to wager that this was a project that ended in frustration and
> went on to describe how the boat owner then tried using a hypodermic needle
> to extract water from each cell in the honeycomb.
>
failure!! I get shivers of Scheudenfreude (sic) contemplating the plight of
the unfortunate, benighted owner attempting this task!
The literature I've seen on the subject generally recommends restricting the
use of honeycombed sandwiches to decks, etc., presumably for the reason given
by Bolger.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
Look at it this way, with a nice thick coat of epoxy in the middle,
it ain't going to delaminate but halfway through! And you've got 6
veneers of wood there, as oppossed to three for your average 1/4"
ply.
Bright finished or not my boats don't get treated like princesses.
They're stored outside under blue tarps. They've been cartopped or
trailered miles upon miles. Sailed hard, turned turtle, swamped,
dragged, filled sickenly high with muck, mud, beercans and rainwater,
one fell off my cartop once and emerged all but unscathed, while
ripping my tail light lens off. Another spent about a month,
unbeknownst to me, filled to the brim, on the trailer, with
rainwater. It was so heavy a tire went flat. I guess the old tarp
leaked like sieve!
That particular hull dried out for about another month in our hot CA
sun and after some varnish (soon to be applied) will look as good as
new. There is no evidence of delamination on the lauan, and I've
looked hard.
I took lots of care in glassing all exposed edges, chines, stem and
stern joints, but nothing else is glassed except the bottom. There
are at least 3 coats of epoxy on everything, glassed or not. I had
some condensation problems under a tarp, and had to sand away some
bubbles that formed, but the bright-finished hulls are as sound now
as the day I launched them. Will that be the case 10 years from now?
I don't know. At some point I may just paint them, to keep out even
more of that nasty UV.
For a small boat, epoxy sealed and dry sailed, I'd be more worried
about voids in the plywood, then what glue was used.
John
> It seems hard to find doorskins (lauan plywood) with exteriorglue.
> I found a ragged looking batch at Home Depot that said "moisturebe
> resistant", but after my failed boiling test this weekend I would
> leary about blowing another $10 to watch it fail.That's the stuff I used!
Look at it this way, with a nice thick coat of epoxy in the middle,
it ain't going to delaminate but halfway through! And you've got 6
veneers of wood there, as oppossed to three for your average 1/4"
ply.
Bright finished or not my boats don't get treated like princesses.
They're stored outside under blue tarps. They've been cartopped or
trailered miles upon miles. Sailed hard, turned turtle, swamped,
dragged, filled sickenly high with muck, mud, beercans and rainwater,
one fell off my cartop once and emerged all but unscathed, while
ripping my tail light lens off. Another spent about a month,
unbeknownst to me, filled to the brim, on the trailer, with
rainwater. It was so heavy a tire went flat. I guess the old tarp
leaked like sieve!
That particular hull dried out for about another month in our hot CA
sun and after some varnish (soon to be applied) will look as good as
new. There is no evidence of delamination on the lauan, and I've
looked hard.
I took lots of care in glassing all exposed edges, chines, stem and
stern joints, but nothing else is glassed except the bottom. There
are at least 3 coats of epoxy on everything, glassed or not. I had
some condensation problems under a tarp, and had to sand away some
bubbles that formed, but the bright-finished hulls are as sound now
as the day I launched them. Will that be the case 10 years from now?
I don't know. At some point I may just paint them, to keep out even
more of that nasty UV.
For a small boat, epoxy sealed and dry sailed, I'd be more worried
about voids in the plywood, then what glue was used.
John
The photo is "Files" under "Bolger Cartopper."
Epoxy...yea well, I didn't skimp on the epoxy. I bought a 5 gallon
tub from System Three, a gallon of fast and another gallon of medium
hardener, and used up maybe 3/4 of everything (remember, that's for
two boats). The upside is, I still have some of that epoxy left, and
have used it on any number of little projects here and there, like
birdsmouth masts. The stuff comes in real handy!
Bottom line, it wasn't cheap. But it was a very good investment.
John
Epoxy...yea well, I didn't skimp on the epoxy. I bought a 5 gallon
tub from System Three, a gallon of fast and another gallon of medium
hardener, and used up maybe 3/4 of everything (remember, that's for
two boats). The upside is, I still have some of that epoxy left, and
have used it on any number of little projects here and there, like
birdsmouth masts. The stuff comes in real handy!
Bottom line, it wasn't cheap. But it was a very good investment.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> That sounds like a great technique, but it's a little more project
> than I want to tackle right now.
>
> How much expoxy did you end up using? Where are the pictures?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
> Seems like it would be much less painful to laminate the 1/8"sheets
> together first, flat.It is without question a lot of work laminating up in place.
But...there is this. I was able to cut out the panels two at once by
just stacking and clamping the plywood, so that wasn't that much
extra work. The bilge panels were a breeze to bend into place, no
spanish windlasses required. And no vacuum bags either. I glued up
the first 1/8" layer to stem and transom, nailing it at the frames,
and using the tacked-on bottom panel to help square things up. Then I
removed the bottom panel and laminated up the second 1/8" layer,
painting a coat of unthinned epoxy onto both panels, then a good, fat
layer of well-thickened epoxy onto the boat. Then, starting aft, I
bent the second layer on, squeezing out any air pockets as I went. It
stuck very well indeed. i clamped around the edges, or tacked using
tiny ringshank nails in places I couldn't use a clamp, leaving enough
head to pull out later.
On advantage of this technique is that I was able to put a glass
strip at the side/bilge panel joint on the inside of the lamination.
But to do that right, you have to laminate the whole boat on the same
day, because if the epoxied glass on that inside strip dries, you
can't get the laminations to mate well with no gaps.
Some things you just have to learn the hard way.
John
It seems hard to find doorskins (lauan plywood) with exterior glue.
I found a ragged looking batch at Home Depot that said "moisture
resistant", but after my failed boiling test this weekend I would be
leary about blowing another $10 to watch it fail. By the time I get
done testing plywood, I may have spent enough to buy Marine Grade.
Can 1/4" lauan plywood with interior glue be used if it is well
encapsulted in epoxy, and does that include using epoxy on the inside
if the boat also?
-Stephen
I found a ragged looking batch at Home Depot that said "moisture
resistant", but after my failed boiling test this weekend I would be
leary about blowing another $10 to watch it fail. By the time I get
done testing plywood, I may have spent enough to buy Marine Grade.
Can 1/4" lauan plywood with interior glue be used if it is well
encapsulted in epoxy, and does that include using epoxy on the inside
if the boat also?
-Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> > Seems like it would be much less painful to laminate the 1/8"
> sheets
> > together first, flat. Especially with , gasp, proaconstrictor's
> > favorite trick, a vacuum bag. At least I think that's what he
meant
> > by: "Throw it all in a bag, and four hours later your done."
though
> it
> > took me some time to come to that conclusion and my epoxy is much
> > slower. Or I can imagine putting it on a flat floor and
shovelling
> > sand on top!
> >
>
> Yup, that was me nagging again. At one point I had both a fair
> amount of epoxy, and a lot of doorskins left over from a larger
> project. I just stacked the doosking in a very neat 4x8 stack,
with
> glue between every other sheet, and wax paper between the other
> sheets, and bagged the whole thing. It was a warm day ont he back
> porch, and the glue went off quickly once the sun came around. The
> ply was perfect, except for the fact that when using a shop vac,
the
> outermost 1/2" of the sheets isn't perfect, because there isn't
> pressure all around that area, thoug in a stack, that only applies
to
> the top sheet. I got enough ply to make my tender, and a 16'
> catamaran.
>
> I have some nida core. They sent out some pretty generous samples
a
> few years back. It is just your basic cell core, very like that
> white plastic stuff that they often use in overhead fluorescent
> fixtured, square grid with fine walls, and half inch thick in the
> case of the stuff I had.
>
> Core is fabulous stuff, unfortunately it isn't cheap. The cheapest
> is about a dollar a bft, which actually is cheap, but it is also
> about a 1/6-1/10 of what most of it costs. Bolger boats are great
> boats, but if I was going to start (you still need skins) at that
> kind of cost/square foot, it wouldn't be to end up with a
cartopper.
> I think it could easily be worth it on decks, or cockpit soles on
> boats the size of a micro. It is so slick there, and those are
areas
> that are prone to rot, excess deflection, and lots of nasty little
> beams. Micro has 500 pounds ballast. That is about a 1000 for a
pro
> pour, so scatering around maybe 1-200 for bomproof decks, and it
> could be about 50 at the low end, might not be overkill on some
> projects.
I haven't used it, I only got some 4" by 4"samples from them. It
seems you can get the material in standart 4 by 8 size or cnc to
size. There is a thin plastic film between the core and and the
nonwoven material to prevent the core to fill with epoxy. Other
option is to get the core with a thin laminate of wood glued to or
with fiverglass already finnished. My theory is that if it bends like
plywood ( the ones between 5 and 11 mm) it should be interesting for
the stich and glue metod at least ( imagine a 15 pound canoe ,resin
included) or the interior done with this material to reduce weight
I got the samples several months ago, but I never could get a price
list, at the end I forgot about it until this morning that I "found"
the samples in my closet.
seems you can get the material in standart 4 by 8 size or cnc to
size. There is a thin plastic film between the core and and the
nonwoven material to prevent the core to fill with epoxy. Other
option is to get the core with a thin laminate of wood glued to or
with fiverglass already finnished. My theory is that if it bends like
plywood ( the ones between 5 and 11 mm) it should be interesting for
the stich and glue metod at least ( imagine a 15 pound canoe ,resin
included) or the interior done with this material to reduce weight
I got the samples several months ago, but I never could get a price
list, at the end I forgot about it until this morning that I "found"
the samples in my closet.
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> It sounds like a very interesting material. Would you mind
answering
> a few questions?
>
> Did you actually build a boat from this material?
> How does it's strenghth compare to ply?
> How much and what weight fiberglass did you use?
> Do you have any pictures?
> How much did this stuff cost? Shipping?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Stephen
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "gkaralus" <gkaralus@y...> wrote:
> > I know this sounds like a blasfemy but here it goes:
> > I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
> > core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
> > (lauan/meranti )if you want.
> > Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all
the
> > seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in the
> interior
> > panels to reduce weight.
> > It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> > > I tried my first boil test yesterday. I found a very nice
> plywood
> > > boiling pot at the local thrift store for 50 cents. (If I had
> > tried
> > > to use one of the kitchen pots my wife may have put an end to
> > > boatbuilding project very quickly.)
> > >
> > > I found some very nice looking oak veneer plywood at Lowes that
> > said
> > > it could be used for exterior projects. It was $20 a sheet,
but
> I
> > > couldn't find any other lightweight plywood I liked, so I
thought
> I
> > > would give it a try.
> > >
> > > I fired up the stove at full boil and watched as the water
> started
> > to
> > > turn brown. I gave it another half hour and it started to peel
> > like
> > > a bad sunburn. I already returned the other three sheets, and
> plan
> > > to use the test sheet for another non-boatbuilding project.
> > >
> > > Just to make myself feel better, I boiled up a piece of half
inch
> > ACX
> > > I had lying around. I boiled it for 2 hours and it did not
> > > delaminate. I think it's time to find some new material.
> > >
> > > The 1/4" ACX may work, but it's heavier. I want my boat to be
> > light
> > > enough for me to get into and out of the back of my truck and
> > launch
> > > alone. Has anyone built a cartopper out of 1/4" plywood? or
any
> > > other wood? How much does it weigh?
> > >
> > > I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this
> week.
> > I
> > > may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find
> > some
> > > affordable marine grade plywood.
> > >
> > > Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
amount of epoxy, and a lot of doorskins left over from a larger
project. I just stacked the doosking in a very neat 4x8 stack, with
glue between every other sheet, and wax paper between the other
sheets, and bagged the whole thing. It was a warm day ont he back
porch, and the glue went off quickly once the sun came around. The
ply was perfect, except for the fact that when using a shop vac, the
outermost 1/2" of the sheets isn't perfect, because there isn't
pressure all around that area, thoug in a stack, that only applies to
the top sheet. I got enough ply to make my tender, and a 16'
catamaran.
I have some nida core. They sent out some pretty generous samples a
few years back. It is just your basic cell core, very like that
white plastic stuff that they often use in overhead fluorescent
fixtured, square grid with fine walls, and half inch thick in the
case of the stuff I had.
Core is fabulous stuff, unfortunately it isn't cheap. The cheapest
is about a dollar a bft, which actually is cheap, but it is also
about a 1/6-1/10 of what most of it costs. Bolger boats are great
boats, but if I was going to start (you still need skins) at that
kind of cost/square foot, it wouldn't be to end up with a cartopper.
I think it could easily be worth it on decks, or cockpit soles on
boats the size of a micro. It is so slick there, and those are areas
that are prone to rot, excess deflection, and lots of nasty little
beams. Micro has 500 pounds ballast. That is about a 1000 for a pro
pour, so scatering around maybe 1-200 for bomproof decks, and it
could be about 50 at the low end, might not be overkill on some
projects.
> Seems like it would be much less painful to laminate the 1/8"sheets
> together first, flat. Especially with , gasp, proaconstrictor'sit
> favorite trick, a vacuum bag. At least I think that's what he meant
> by: "Throw it all in a bag, and four hours later your done." though
> took me some time to come to that conclusion and my epoxy is muchYup, that was me nagging again. At one point I had both a fair
> slower. Or I can imagine putting it on a flat floor and shovelling
> sand on top!
>
amount of epoxy, and a lot of doorskins left over from a larger
project. I just stacked the doosking in a very neat 4x8 stack, with
glue between every other sheet, and wax paper between the other
sheets, and bagged the whole thing. It was a warm day ont he back
porch, and the glue went off quickly once the sun came around. The
ply was perfect, except for the fact that when using a shop vac, the
outermost 1/2" of the sheets isn't perfect, because there isn't
pressure all around that area, thoug in a stack, that only applies to
the top sheet. I got enough ply to make my tender, and a 16'
catamaran.
I have some nida core. They sent out some pretty generous samples a
few years back. It is just your basic cell core, very like that
white plastic stuff that they often use in overhead fluorescent
fixtured, square grid with fine walls, and half inch thick in the
case of the stuff I had.
Core is fabulous stuff, unfortunately it isn't cheap. The cheapest
is about a dollar a bft, which actually is cheap, but it is also
about a 1/6-1/10 of what most of it costs. Bolger boats are great
boats, but if I was going to start (you still need skins) at that
kind of cost/square foot, it wouldn't be to end up with a cartopper.
I think it could easily be worth it on decks, or cockpit soles on
boats the size of a micro. It is so slick there, and those are areas
that are prone to rot, excess deflection, and lots of nasty little
beams. Micro has 500 pounds ballast. That is about a 1000 for a pro
pour, so scatering around maybe 1-200 for bomproof decks, and it
could be about 50 at the low end, might not be overkill on some
projects.
> From: "gkaralus" <gkaralus@...>Phil Bolger (SA?) has written that he does not recommend the use of
> ...honeycomb plastic panels...
honeycomb panels in boats. (I forget where he/she wrote this.)
PCB/PB&F wrote that he knew of a case where the honeycombs admitted water
(gradually and microscopically) easier than they expelled water. PCB/PB&F
went on to describe how the boat owner then tried using a hypodermic needle
to extract water from each cell in the honeycomb.
Seems like it would be much less painful to laminate the 1/8" sheets
together first, flat. Especially with , gasp, proaconstrictor's
favorite trick, a vacuum bag. At least I think that's what he meant
by: "Throw it all in a bag, and four hours later your done." though it
took me some time to come to that conclusion and my epoxy is much
slower. Or I can imagine putting it on a flat floor and shovelling
sand on top!
Someone else mentioned a special honeycombed core mat'l. Sounds great
if they will fund the panels or the panels cost less than I expect
they do. Probably not good for a boat kept in the water most of the
time, as I can just imagine those cells filling up, but might be
amazing in a cartop boat. Anyone ever buy these panels?
together first, flat. Especially with , gasp, proaconstrictor's
favorite trick, a vacuum bag. At least I think that's what he meant
by: "Throw it all in a bag, and four hours later your done." though it
took me some time to come to that conclusion and my epoxy is much
slower. Or I can imagine putting it on a flat floor and shovelling
sand on top!
Someone else mentioned a special honeycombed core mat'l. Sounds great
if they will fund the panels or the panels cost less than I expect
they do. Probably not good for a boat kept in the water most of the
time, as I can just imagine those cells filling up, but might be
amazing in a cartop boat. Anyone ever buy these panels?
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> That sounds like a great technique, but it's a little more project
> than I want to tackle right now.
>
> How much expoxy did you end up using? Where are the pictures?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> > I built two Cartoppers several years back. Both from 1/8" Home
> Depot
> > lauan ply, scarfed, and laminated up (good faces out) to 1/4" in
> > place on the frames.snip
That sounds like a great technique, but it's a little more project
than I want to tackle right now.
How much expoxy did you end up using? Where are the pictures?
Thanks.
Stephen
than I want to tackle right now.
How much expoxy did you end up using? Where are the pictures?
Thanks.
Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> I built two Cartoppers several years back. Both from 1/8" Home
Depot
> lauan ply, scarfed, and laminated up (good faces out) to 1/4" in
> place on the frames. Bottom is 1/4" marine fir. Fames, transom and
> c/b trunk are 1/4" 5 ply "Fin birch" (which has a tendancy, I have
> learned the hard way, to delaminate if not heavily covered in epoxy
> and/or glass, especially at exposed edges). All seating platforms
are
> oiled teak ply (for looks). All solid wood is doug fir, including
the
> stems, which were laminated up on a jig.
>
> Laminating up the hull is a lot (a whole lot!) of extra work. I
> wouldn't necessarilly recommend it unless you're determined to have
a
> bright finished boat using cheap ply. It depends how much you value
> your time and your sanity (did I mention it's a lot of extra
work....)
>
> The hulls themselves are as sound as the day I launched them, with
no
> sign, none, nada, of detioration, despite that 1/8 luaun is not
> recommended for exterior use, and will delaminate easily if not
> protected. The frame/hull joints have given some problems, easily
> fixed, but I've been known to sail them real hard, much harder than
> they're meant to be (you don't go any faster, it's just fun!)
>
> The boats weighed out, stripped, at 78lbs, balanced on my bathroom
> scale, complete with a glassed bottom, glassed c/b trunk interior,
> and a double layer of glass at all chines inside and out, including
> an 'internal' strip of glass between the laminations at the
> side/bilge panel joints.
>
> For the first year and a half I hoisted them, many, many times, up
on
> my Volvo wagon using a jury rigged wheel system that mounts on the
> transom using the rudder mounts. It has two wheels spaced wide at
the
> top, and a single wheel centerline on the bottom, so she can come
off
> the car upside down onto two wheels, them be flipped over single
> handed, loaded up, and wheeled down to the water on that single
> centerline wheel. I finally got a trailer, and can now put one on
> top, and another on the trailer--though usually I just use the one
> boat on the trailer.
>
> See the files for a pic.Good luck!
>
> John O'Neill
It sounds like a very interesting material. Would you mind answering
a few questions?
Did you actually build a boat from this material?
How does it's strenghth compare to ply?
How much and what weight fiberglass did you use?
Do you have any pictures?
How much did this stuff cost? Shipping?
Thanks.
Stephen
a few questions?
Did you actually build a boat from this material?
How does it's strenghth compare to ply?
How much and what weight fiberglass did you use?
Do you have any pictures?
How much did this stuff cost? Shipping?
Thanks.
Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., "gkaralus" <gkaralus@y...> wrote:
> I know this sounds like a blasfemy but here it goes:
> I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
> core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
> (lauan/meranti )if you want.
> Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all the
> seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in the
interior
> panels to reduce weight.
> It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> > I tried my first boil test yesterday. I found a very nice
plywood
> > boiling pot at the local thrift store for 50 cents. (If I had
> tried
> > to use one of the kitchen pots my wife may have put an end to
> > boatbuilding project very quickly.)
> >
> > I found some very nice looking oak veneer plywood at Lowes that
> said
> > it could be used for exterior projects. It was $20 a sheet, but
I
> > couldn't find any other lightweight plywood I liked, so I thought
I
> > would give it a try.
> >
> > I fired up the stove at full boil and watched as the water
started
> to
> > turn brown. I gave it another half hour and it started to peel
> like
> > a bad sunburn. I already returned the other three sheets, and
plan
> > to use the test sheet for another non-boatbuilding project.
> >
> > Just to make myself feel better, I boiled up a piece of half inch
> ACX
> > I had lying around. I boiled it for 2 hours and it did not
> > delaminate. I think it's time to find some new material.
> >
> > The 1/4" ACX may work, but it's heavier. I want my boat to be
> light
> > enough for me to get into and out of the back of my truck and
> launch
> > alone. Has anyone built a cartopper out of 1/4" plywood? or any
> > other wood? How much does it weigh?
> >
> > I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this
week.
> I
> > may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find
> some
> > affordable marine grade plywood.
> >
> > Stephen
I know this sounds like a blasfemy but here it goes:
I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
(lauan/meranti )if you want.
Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all the
seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in the interior
panels to reduce weight.
It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
(lauan/meranti )if you want.
Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all the
seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in the interior
panels to reduce weight.
It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> I tried my first boil test yesterday. I found a very nice plywood
> boiling pot at the local thrift store for 50 cents. (If I had
tried
> to use one of the kitchen pots my wife may have put an end to
> boatbuilding project very quickly.)
>
> I found some very nice looking oak veneer plywood at Lowes that
said
> it could be used for exterior projects. It was $20 a sheet, but I
> couldn't find any other lightweight plywood I liked, so I thought I
> would give it a try.
>
> I fired up the stove at full boil and watched as the water started
to
> turn brown. I gave it another half hour and it started to peel
like
> a bad sunburn. I already returned the other three sheets, and plan
> to use the test sheet for another non-boatbuilding project.
>
> Just to make myself feel better, I boiled up a piece of half inch
ACX
> I had lying around. I boiled it for 2 hours and it did not
> delaminate. I think it's time to find some new material.
>
> The 1/4" ACX may work, but it's heavier. I want my boat to be
light
> enough for me to get into and out of the back of my truck and
launch
> alone. Has anyone built a cartopper out of 1/4" plywood? or any
> other wood? How much does it weigh?
>
> I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this week.
I
> may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find
some
> affordable marine grade plywood.
>
> Stephen
This product is probably strong and stiff enough to use for the hull
skin, but how puncture resistant is it?
Chris
gkaralus wrote:
skin, but how puncture resistant is it?
Chris
gkaralus wrote:
>
> I know this sounds like a blasfemy but here it goes:
> I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
> core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
> (lauan/meranti )if you want.
> Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all the
> seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in the interior
> panels to reduce weight.
> It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
This product is probably strong and stiff enough to use for the hull
skin, but how puncture resistant is it?
Chris
gkaralus wrote:
skin, but how puncture resistant is it?
Chris
gkaralus wrote:
>
> I know this sounds like a blasfemy but here it goes:
> I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
> core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
> (lauan/meranti )if you want.
> Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all the
> seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in the interior
> panels to reduce weight.
> It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
--- In bolger@y..., "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
On the more sobering side, I just started looking for 1/8" luan, and
even pre-boil test it isn't looking good. Found some great marine
stuff, but it cost about as much as rosewood a b/foot. If there
isn't any good cheap stuff floating around, we are going to be
kissing off some pretty cool boat building techniques.
I wish I could just get a good price for some veneer before it goes
into the ply, at the same price.
> I built two Cartoppers several years back. Both from 1/8" HomeDepot
> lauan ply, scarfed, and laminated up (good faces out) to 1/4" inare
> place on the frames. Bottom is 1/4" marine fir. Fames, transom and
> c/b trunk are 1/4" 5 ply "Fin birch" (which has a tendancy, I have
> learned the hard way, to delaminate if not heavily covered in epoxy
> and/or glass, especially at exposed edges). All seating platforms
> oiled teak ply (for looks). All solid wood is doug fir, includingthe
> stems, which were laminated up on a jig.a
>
> Laminating up the hull is a lot (a whole lot!) of extra work. I
> wouldn't necessarilly recommend it unless you're determined to have
> bright finished boat using cheap ply.Throw it all in a bag, and four hours later your done.
On the more sobering side, I just started looking for 1/8" luan, and
even pre-boil test it isn't looking good. Found some great marine
stuff, but it cost about as much as rosewood a b/foot. If there
isn't any good cheap stuff floating around, we are going to be
kissing off some pretty cool boat building techniques.
I wish I could just get a good price for some veneer before it goes
into the ply, at the same price.
I built two Cartoppers several years back. Both from 1/8" Home Depot
lauan ply, scarfed, and laminated up (good faces out) to 1/4" in
place on the frames. Bottom is 1/4" marine fir. Fames, transom and
c/b trunk are 1/4" 5 ply "Fin birch" (which has a tendancy, I have
learned the hard way, to delaminate if not heavily covered in epoxy
and/or glass, especially at exposed edges). All seating platforms are
oiled teak ply (for looks). All solid wood is doug fir, including the
stems, which were laminated up on a jig.
Laminating up the hull is a lot (a whole lot!) of extra work. I
wouldn't necessarilly recommend it unless you're determined to have a
bright finished boat using cheap ply. It depends how much you value
your time and your sanity (did I mention it's a lot of extra work....)
The hulls themselves are as sound as the day I launched them, with no
sign, none, nada, of detioration, despite that 1/8 luaun is not
recommended for exterior use, and will delaminate easily if not
protected. The frame/hull joints have given some problems, easily
fixed, but I've been known to sail them real hard, much harder than
they're meant to be (you don't go any faster, it's just fun!)
The boats weighed out, stripped, at 78lbs, balanced on my bathroom
scale, complete with a glassed bottom, glassed c/b trunk interior,
and a double layer of glass at all chines inside and out, including
an 'internal' strip of glass between the laminations at the
side/bilge panel joints.
For the first year and a half I hoisted them, many, many times, up on
my Volvo wagon using a jury rigged wheel system that mounts on the
transom using the rudder mounts. It has two wheels spaced wide at the
top, and a single wheel centerline on the bottom, so she can come off
the car upside down onto two wheels, them be flipped over single
handed, loaded up, and wheeled down to the water on that single
centerline wheel. I finally got a trailer, and can now put one on
top, and another on the trailer--though usually I just use the one
boat on the trailer.
See the files for a pic.Good luck!
John O'Neill
lauan ply, scarfed, and laminated up (good faces out) to 1/4" in
place on the frames. Bottom is 1/4" marine fir. Fames, transom and
c/b trunk are 1/4" 5 ply "Fin birch" (which has a tendancy, I have
learned the hard way, to delaminate if not heavily covered in epoxy
and/or glass, especially at exposed edges). All seating platforms are
oiled teak ply (for looks). All solid wood is doug fir, including the
stems, which were laminated up on a jig.
Laminating up the hull is a lot (a whole lot!) of extra work. I
wouldn't necessarilly recommend it unless you're determined to have a
bright finished boat using cheap ply. It depends how much you value
your time and your sanity (did I mention it's a lot of extra work....)
The hulls themselves are as sound as the day I launched them, with no
sign, none, nada, of detioration, despite that 1/8 luaun is not
recommended for exterior use, and will delaminate easily if not
protected. The frame/hull joints have given some problems, easily
fixed, but I've been known to sail them real hard, much harder than
they're meant to be (you don't go any faster, it's just fun!)
The boats weighed out, stripped, at 78lbs, balanced on my bathroom
scale, complete with a glassed bottom, glassed c/b trunk interior,
and a double layer of glass at all chines inside and out, including
an 'internal' strip of glass between the laminations at the
side/bilge panel joints.
For the first year and a half I hoisted them, many, many times, up on
my Volvo wagon using a jury rigged wheel system that mounts on the
transom using the rudder mounts. It has two wheels spaced wide at the
top, and a single wheel centerline on the bottom, so she can come off
the car upside down onto two wheels, them be flipped over single
handed, loaded up, and wheeled down to the water on that single
centerline wheel. I finally got a trailer, and can now put one on
top, and another on the trailer--though usually I just use the one
boat on the trailer.
See the files for a pic.Good luck!
John O'Neill
Stephen,
My Cartopper construction is in the home stretch. I'm using 1/4
mahogany marine ply (the brand is Hydrotek or something like that)
which I bought from MacBeath Hardwood in Salt Lake City. They also
have an outlet in Berkley, CA. I paid $35 a sheet, which I consider
reasonable compared to Okoume. My point is that I'm certain you'll
be able to find a better price on marine ply living next to the
ocean than I can out here in the middle of the desert and once
you've put enough elbow grease into the project the money you saved
on cheaper wood seems insignificant.
I haven't weighed my hull yet, but it seems pretty managable and the
marine ply is definately lighter than the fir I checked out at the
lumber yard. I used one layer of cloth tape at the joints, except
where the bottom meets the bow where doubled it, and sheathed the
whole exterior in 6 oz cloth. It seems very strong and I think the
sheathing was well worth the few extra pounds it added.
I'm planning to build a loading device like the one that someone
mentioned but with a winch to crank the boat up over the back of my
camper shell.
Good luck,
Kellan
My Cartopper construction is in the home stretch. I'm using 1/4
mahogany marine ply (the brand is Hydrotek or something like that)
which I bought from MacBeath Hardwood in Salt Lake City. They also
have an outlet in Berkley, CA. I paid $35 a sheet, which I consider
reasonable compared to Okoume. My point is that I'm certain you'll
be able to find a better price on marine ply living next to the
ocean than I can out here in the middle of the desert and once
you've put enough elbow grease into the project the money you saved
on cheaper wood seems insignificant.
I haven't weighed my hull yet, but it seems pretty managable and the
marine ply is definately lighter than the fir I checked out at the
lumber yard. I used one layer of cloth tape at the joints, except
where the bottom meets the bow where doubled it, and sheathed the
whole exterior in 6 oz cloth. It seems very strong and I think the
sheathing was well worth the few extra pounds it added.
I'm planning to build a loading device like the one that someone
mentioned but with a winch to crank the boat up over the back of my
camper shell.
Good luck,
Kellan
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> I'm in Placentia, Orange County California, in the Los Angeles
area.
>
> If anyone could share some of the suppliers they've bought
materials
> from it would really be helpful.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> > What's your location? Someone on this list might be able to give
> you a
> > tip on good sources.
> > --- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> > snip
> > >
> > > I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this
> week. I
> > > may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to
find
> some
> > > affordable marine grade plywood.
> > >
> > > Stephen
The magazine box idea seems like a good one. I could use some nice
boxes to store my Woodenboat issues.
I'm actually planning on building a Bolger Cartopper. I like it's
lines, and the dimensions meet my requirements. It should fit nicely
in the back of my truck. I'm just concerned about the weight. (My
back is not getting any younger). I have a Lido 14, which is a 14
foot fiberglass sailboat, that my friend and I have hauled across a
beach to launch, but you feel it the next day. It weighs about 350
lbs, so it's a lot of boat to heft. I want the smaller boat for when
I want to go out by myself, and for when there's not a launching ramp
readily available (like in Newport Beach, CA).
There's a store down the street from me which specializes in hardwood
plywood. I'm going to try to sneak out of work early today and see
what they have. Their web site (http:/www.reellumber.com) lists some
very interesting types of wood, and I wouldn't be surprised if they
even had some marine grade plywood on hand. I'm sure I'll have
sticker shock when I find out what there more exotic wood costs!
Stephen
boxes to store my Woodenboat issues.
I'm actually planning on building a Bolger Cartopper. I like it's
lines, and the dimensions meet my requirements. It should fit nicely
in the back of my truck. I'm just concerned about the weight. (My
back is not getting any younger). I have a Lido 14, which is a 14
foot fiberglass sailboat, that my friend and I have hauled across a
beach to launch, but you feel it the next day. It weighs about 350
lbs, so it's a lot of boat to heft. I want the smaller boat for when
I want to go out by myself, and for when there's not a launching ramp
readily available (like in Newport Beach, CA).
There's a store down the street from me which specializes in hardwood
plywood. I'm going to try to sneak out of work early today and see
what they have. Their web site (http:/www.reellumber.com) lists some
very interesting types of wood, and I wouldn't be surprised if they
even had some marine grade plywood on hand. I'm sure I'll have
sticker shock when I find out what there more exotic wood costs!
Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> If easy cartoping is what you want, you might consider a boat like
> the Redmond Whisp. Granted the plans aren't available for that one
> (I have some, but he seems to have disappeared), but the idea is
> there for a boat that is row, sail, and motorable, and as easy to
> move as a canoe. Did row one once and it moved very nicely.
>
> I was dusting magazines this weekend, and generaly appreciated when
I
> came upon them, magazine boxes that I had made out of scraps of
luan
> ply. 1/8" for the sides, and 1/4" for the spine, bottom, and
front.
> I just epoxied them together, and shot staples with a narrow crown
> stapler. Where epoxy spread out on the inside I sort of coved it,
but
> I certainly didn't put in real coves, though this stuff makes the
> boxes much stronger. I used a router to round all corners, and
then
> varnished. I is really important that the top grain runs accross
the
> short distance on all the pieces. This makes them stiffer, and
gives
> better glue surfaces. The two corners where the 1/4" ends ply meet
> are mitered across the width, all other joints (between 1/8 and
1/4)
> are butts.
>
> As long as you pick the boxes up with two hands, they remain stiff,
> and quite attractive, Mine are about 10 years old.
>
> A good use for scraps, or ply that doesn't pass the boil test.
If easy cartoping is what you want, you might consider a boat like
the Redmond Whisp. Granted the plans aren't available for that one
(I have some, but he seems to have disappeared), but the idea is
there for a boat that is row, sail, and motorable, and as easy to
move as a canoe. Did row one once and it moved very nicely.
I was dusting magazines this weekend, and generaly appreciated when I
came upon them, magazine boxes that I had made out of scraps of luan
ply. 1/8" for the sides, and 1/4" for the spine, bottom, and front.
I just epoxied them together, and shot staples with a narrow crown
stapler. Where epoxy spread out on the inside I sort of coved it, but
I certainly didn't put in real coves, though this stuff makes the
boxes much stronger. I used a router to round all corners, and then
varnished. I is really important that the top grain runs accross the
short distance on all the pieces. This makes them stiffer, and gives
better glue surfaces. The two corners where the 1/4" ends ply meet
are mitered across the width, all other joints (between 1/8 and 1/4)
are butts.
As long as you pick the boxes up with two hands, they remain stiff,
and quite attractive, Mine are about 10 years old.
A good use for scraps, or ply that doesn't pass the boil test.
the Redmond Whisp. Granted the plans aren't available for that one
(I have some, but he seems to have disappeared), but the idea is
there for a boat that is row, sail, and motorable, and as easy to
move as a canoe. Did row one once and it moved very nicely.
I was dusting magazines this weekend, and generaly appreciated when I
came upon them, magazine boxes that I had made out of scraps of luan
ply. 1/8" for the sides, and 1/4" for the spine, bottom, and front.
I just epoxied them together, and shot staples with a narrow crown
stapler. Where epoxy spread out on the inside I sort of coved it, but
I certainly didn't put in real coves, though this stuff makes the
boxes much stronger. I used a router to round all corners, and then
varnished. I is really important that the top grain runs accross the
short distance on all the pieces. This makes them stiffer, and gives
better glue surfaces. The two corners where the 1/4" ends ply meet
are mitered across the width, all other joints (between 1/8 and 1/4)
are butts.
As long as you pick the boxes up with two hands, they remain stiff,
and quite attractive, Mine are about 10 years old.
A good use for scraps, or ply that doesn't pass the boil test.
I'm in Placentia, Orange County California, in the Los Angeles area.
If anyone could share some of the suppliers they've bought materials
from it would really be helpful.
Thanks.
Stephen
If anyone could share some of the suppliers they've bought materials
from it would really be helpful.
Thanks.
Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> What's your location? Someone on this list might be able to give
you a
> tip on good sources.
> --- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> snip
> >
> > I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this
week. I
> > may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find
some
> > affordable marine grade plywood.
> >
> > Stephen
I am currently building a Cartopper out of BC Home Depot plywood in
Houston, Texas. The hull is mostly finished on the outside with a
layer of tape on the seams and a layer of 5oz cloth over the entire
bottom. So far, the weight seems manageable. When the project is
finished I will tell you more about getting the thing on the top of
the truck.
GME
Houston, Texas. The hull is mostly finished on the outside with a
layer of tape on the seams and a layer of 5oz cloth over the entire
bottom. So far, the weight seems manageable. When the project is
finished I will tell you more about getting the thing on the top of
the truck.
GME
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
> I tried my first boil test yesterday. I found a very nice plywood
> boiling pot at the local thrift store for 50 cents. (If I had tried
> to use one of the kitchen pots my wife may have put an end to
> boatbuilding project very quickly.)
>
> I found some very nice looking oak veneer plywood at Lowes that said
> it could be used for exterior projects. It was $20 a sheet, but I
> couldn't find any other lightweight plywood I liked, so I thought I
> would give it a try.
>
> I fired up the stove at full boil and watched as the water started
to
> turn brown. I gave it another half hour and it started to peel like
> a bad sunburn. I already returned the other three sheets, and plan
> to use the test sheet for another non-boatbuilding project.
>
> Just to make myself feel better, I boiled up a piece of half inch
ACX
> I had lying around. I boiled it for 2 hours and it did not
> delaminate. I think it's time to find some new material.
>
> The 1/4" ACX may work, but it's heavier. I want my boat to be light
> enough for me to get into and out of the back of my truck and launch
> alone. Has anyone built a cartopper out of 1/4" plywood? or any
> other wood? How much does it weigh?
>
> I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this week. I
> may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find some
> affordable marine grade plywood.
>
> Stephen
What's your location? Someone on this list might be able to give you a
tip on good sources.
tip on good sources.
--- In bolger@y..., "smshatz" <steveshatz@h...> wrote:
snip
>
> I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this week. I
> may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find some
> affordable marine grade plywood.
>
> Stephen
I build my Gull light, and I can get it on and off the top of my station
wagon solo -- no special gadgets . I'd bet the same would be true for a
lightly build cartopper.
My Teal is 1/4 ACX throughout. No glass. Checks something terrible, but
plenty strong.
If you use fir plywood, it *will* check, right through epoxy and paint.
Glass cloth, even very thin (and light) will stop it. Much lower
maintenence.
YIBB,
David
wagon solo -- no special gadgets . I'd bet the same would be true for a
lightly build cartopper.
My Teal is 1/4 ACX throughout. No glass. Checks something terrible, but
plenty strong.
If you use fir plywood, it *will* check, right through epoxy and paint.
Glass cloth, even very thin (and light) will stop it. Much lower
maintenence.
YIBB,
David
On Monday, August 26, 2002, at 08:34 AM, brucehector wrote:
> I think a cartopper built from 1/4" would be light enough if you paid
> attention to some other weight saving details:
> 1-Use marine ply so you won't need to fibregalass it all or epxoy
> encapsualte it.
> 2-Just a single layer of tape on the seams.
> 3-Removable seats and minimal hardware.
> 4-Or build her strong and cobble up a "one-man cartopping lifting
> aid", I've seen such gizmos. Usually an upright post as high as the
> roof racks at one end of the car, lift just one end of the boat up
> onto the post, then walk to the other end, lift, and walk it around
> 180 degrees to the travel position.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
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> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
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> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>
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>
>
>
I think a cartopper built from 1/4" would be light enough if you paid
attention to some other weight saving details:
1-Use marine ply so you won't need to fibregalass it all or epxoy
encapsualte it.
2-Just a single layer of tape on the seams.
3-Removable seats and minimal hardware.
4-Or build her strong and cobble up a "one-man cartopping lifting
aid", I've seen such gizmos. Usually an upright post as high as the
roof racks at one end of the car, lift just one end of the boat up
onto the post, then walk to the other end, lift, and walk it around
180 degrees to the travel position.
attention to some other weight saving details:
1-Use marine ply so you won't need to fibregalass it all or epxoy
encapsualte it.
2-Just a single layer of tape on the seams.
3-Removable seats and minimal hardware.
4-Or build her strong and cobble up a "one-man cartopping lifting
aid", I've seen such gizmos. Usually an upright post as high as the
roof racks at one end of the car, lift just one end of the boat up
onto the post, then walk to the other end, lift, and walk it around
180 degrees to the travel position.
This product is probably strong and stiff enough to use for the hull
skin, but how puncture resistant is it?
Chris
gkaralus wrote:
skin, but how puncture resistant is it?
Chris
gkaralus wrote:
>
> I know this sounds like a blasfemy but here it goes:
> I found a company that makes honeycomb plastic panles( wwww.nida-
> core.com) you can get it with a nonwoven skin or with a wood skin
> (lauan/meranti )if you want.
> Use it in a stich and glue boat replacing the plywood, tape all the
> seams and apply epoxy to all the surfaces. Or use it in the interior
> panels to reduce weight.
> It weights only 4.8 pounds per cubic ft.( compare it with plywood)
I tried my first boil test yesterday. I found a very nice plywood
boiling pot at the local thrift store for 50 cents. (If I had tried
to use one of the kitchen pots my wife may have put an end to
boatbuilding project very quickly.)
I found some very nice looking oak veneer plywood at Lowes that said
it could be used for exterior projects. It was $20 a sheet, but I
couldn't find any other lightweight plywood I liked, so I thought I
would give it a try.
I fired up the stove at full boil and watched as the water started to
turn brown. I gave it another half hour and it started to peel like
a bad sunburn. I already returned the other three sheets, and plan
to use the test sheet for another non-boatbuilding project.
Just to make myself feel better, I boiled up a piece of half inch ACX
I had lying around. I boiled it for 2 hours and it did not
delaminate. I think it's time to find some new material.
The 1/4" ACX may work, but it's heavier. I want my boat to be light
enough for me to get into and out of the back of my truck and launch
alone. Has anyone built a cartopper out of 1/4" plywood? or any
other wood? How much does it weigh?
I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this week. I
may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find some
affordable marine grade plywood.
Stephen
boiling pot at the local thrift store for 50 cents. (If I had tried
to use one of the kitchen pots my wife may have put an end to
boatbuilding project very quickly.)
I found some very nice looking oak veneer plywood at Lowes that said
it could be used for exterior projects. It was $20 a sheet, but I
couldn't find any other lightweight plywood I liked, so I thought I
would give it a try.
I fired up the stove at full boil and watched as the water started to
turn brown. I gave it another half hour and it started to peel like
a bad sunburn. I already returned the other three sheets, and plan
to use the test sheet for another non-boatbuilding project.
Just to make myself feel better, I boiled up a piece of half inch ACX
I had lying around. I boiled it for 2 hours and it did not
delaminate. I think it's time to find some new material.
The 1/4" ACX may work, but it's heavier. I want my boat to be light
enough for me to get into and out of the back of my truck and launch
alone. Has anyone built a cartopper out of 1/4" plywood? or any
other wood? How much does it weigh?
I'm going to take another look for some decent plywood this week. I
may try some of the smaller suppliers, and may even try to find some
affordable marine grade plywood.
Stephen