Re: [bolger] Re: antifreeze wood preservative
In a message dated 8/28/02 7:34:47 PM Central Daylight Time,lincolnr@...
writes:
in question was a 1 1/2" thick laminated plywood transom insert in an
aluminum boat that was sandwiched between aluminum components and provided
the actual structural strength of the transom. Given its construction, the
fact that it was rotten after 20 years was not much of a surprise. Apparently
the manufacturer used water-proof glue to laminate the two 3/4'" slabs, but
that was the only concession to the fact it was to be exposed to water and a
critical structural element - no paint (except exposed portions that got hit
when the assembled boat was sprayed), no sealing, no bedding compound, no
nothing! Despite the fact that the insert was pierced by 16 or 18 SS through
bolts, it appeared that all of the rot orginated in the corners, where two
insignificant and unneccessary brackets to support the aft casting deck were
each secured with a pair of un-bedded, un-potted, un-anything wood screws.
The rot clearly started at those points and spread toward the center.
Evidently the through bolts semi-sealed their holes, and they were ventilated
and exposed to the sun at both ends, as the deterioration in those fittings
and the wood about them noticeably decreased with the distance from the
screws. The exposed portions of the transom looked and felt sound on casual
inspection, presumably because ventilation kept the rot out of the surface
plies, however the rot had spread to those portions as well. But for those 4
insignificnt and unnecessary screws, the insert might still have served
today, although it certainly didn't deserve to do so.
Anyway, I guess the moral of the story is that screws provide a fine path for
water to create a nice environment for fungi unless steps are taken to
exclude water from following the screw/wood interface to a nice, dark, wet
and warm confection of tasty celluose so enjoyed by so many fungi.
Seal! Pot! Bed! Paint! Pray! In the long run, rot in wood is probably
inevitable, like death, and at least as necessary, but in the short run it is
noble to defy the entropy.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I think it was Thomas Firth JonesI dealt with a moderately interesting piece of rot this Spring. The element
> who said unbedded fittings could cause a lot of rot.
>
in question was a 1 1/2" thick laminated plywood transom insert in an
aluminum boat that was sandwiched between aluminum components and provided
the actual structural strength of the transom. Given its construction, the
fact that it was rotten after 20 years was not much of a surprise. Apparently
the manufacturer used water-proof glue to laminate the two 3/4'" slabs, but
that was the only concession to the fact it was to be exposed to water and a
critical structural element - no paint (except exposed portions that got hit
when the assembled boat was sprayed), no sealing, no bedding compound, no
nothing! Despite the fact that the insert was pierced by 16 or 18 SS through
bolts, it appeared that all of the rot orginated in the corners, where two
insignificant and unneccessary brackets to support the aft casting deck were
each secured with a pair of un-bedded, un-potted, un-anything wood screws.
The rot clearly started at those points and spread toward the center.
Evidently the through bolts semi-sealed their holes, and they were ventilated
and exposed to the sun at both ends, as the deterioration in those fittings
and the wood about them noticeably decreased with the distance from the
screws. The exposed portions of the transom looked and felt sound on casual
inspection, presumably because ventilation kept the rot out of the surface
plies, however the rot had spread to those portions as well. But for those 4
insignificnt and unnecessary screws, the insert might still have served
today, although it certainly didn't deserve to do so.
Anyway, I guess the moral of the story is that screws provide a fine path for
water to create a nice environment for fungi unless steps are taken to
exclude water from following the screw/wood interface to a nice, dark, wet
and warm confection of tasty celluose so enjoyed by so many fungi.
Seal! Pot! Bed! Paint! Pray! In the long run, rot in wood is probably
inevitable, like death, and at least as necessary, but in the short run it is
noble to defy the entropy.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Are you going to bed the fittings? I think it was Thomas Firth Jones
who said unbedded fittings could cause a lot of rot.
who said unbedded fittings could cause a lot of rot.
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
snip A little more serious rot (soft, punky wood you could
dig
> out by the handful) on my houseboat, "Adagio" (means "to play
slowly"
> in Italian). All rot was where fittings were screwed through the
deck
> and into the beams below.
>
snip
I prevent rot by depositing a 5-gallon carboy of a 50%
(100 proof) ethanol solution directly into the bilge
each spring. The stuff is produced locally to avoid
the federal excise tax, and is quite inexpensive. The
bilge needs to be sampled orally each trip to monitor
its continued efficacity--a half-pint to a gallon of
fruit punch makes the testing more palatable, even
enjoyable on warm summer days for those who value boat
maintenance for its own sake. Of course, the amount
of solution you apply each spring will vary according
to boat size, crew size, etc.--the trick is to have
the bilge dry by autumn haul-out. The boat still rots
away, but I don't seem to care. Works great on
fiberglass boats as well. Sam
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(100 proof) ethanol solution directly into the bilge
each spring. The stuff is produced locally to avoid
the federal excise tax, and is quite inexpensive. The
bilge needs to be sampled orally each trip to monitor
its continued efficacity--a half-pint to a gallon of
fruit punch makes the testing more palatable, even
enjoyable on warm summer days for those who value boat
maintenance for its own sake. Of course, the amount
of solution you apply each spring will vary according
to boat size, crew size, etc.--the trick is to have
the bilge dry by autumn haul-out. The boat still rots
away, but I don't seem to care. Works great on
fiberglass boats as well. Sam
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
It's not a typical Dovekie thing, but a result of criminal neglect. My
Dovekie ('79) has fine spars, but requires periodic attention to the
brightwork. Leo
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Dovekie ('79) has fine spars, but requires periodic attention to the
brightwork. Leo
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I had some mildew in my Micro "Riff-Raff's" bottom after being under
wraps for the winter and spring, snow got in anyway and melted, blah,
blah, blah. A little more serious rot (soft, punky wood you could dig
out by the handful) on my houseboat, "Adagio" (means "to play slowly"
in Italian). All rot was where fittings were screwed through the deck
and into the beams below.
On the Micro, which just had some staining and mildew, we washed it
with bleach and then spashed some Prestone around. Worked great. Long
term results unkown.
On the houseboat, with some areas of rotten wood going throught the
1" ply deck and 2"-3" deep into underlaying 2" by 6" beams, I dug out
by hand and chissel as much rot as I could. Either to good looking
wood or in one case right through to air (had to back that spot up
with duct tape). Then I liberally soaked all rotted areas with the
Prestone and left it to dry for a few days. West epoxy thickened with
sawdust was misxed up in a huge batch and slopped into all the
caverns of Mars but left just shy of the surrounding deck height so
that epoxy and micro-balloons could be used for final fairing. Also
seemed to work well, long term results unknown.
wraps for the winter and spring, snow got in anyway and melted, blah,
blah, blah. A little more serious rot (soft, punky wood you could dig
out by the handful) on my houseboat, "Adagio" (means "to play slowly"
in Italian). All rot was where fittings were screwed through the deck
and into the beams below.
On the Micro, which just had some staining and mildew, we washed it
with bleach and then spashed some Prestone around. Worked great. Long
term results unkown.
On the houseboat, with some areas of rotten wood going throught the
1" ply deck and 2"-3" deep into underlaying 2" by 6" beams, I dug out
by hand and chissel as much rot as I could. Either to good looking
wood or in one case right through to air (had to back that spot up
with duct tape). Then I liberally soaked all rotted areas with the
Prestone and left it to dry for a few days. West epoxy thickened with
sawdust was misxed up in a huge batch and slopped into all the
caverns of Mars but left just shy of the surrounding deck height so
that epoxy and micro-balloons could be used for final fairing. Also
seemed to work well, long term results unknown.
This was the way the boat came when I got it last year. I called back
several owners prior, and the earliest owner was surprised the mast
had not rotted. It's sound, but has been varnished over probably
quite a few times. I didn't ask if anyone had previously tried
treating it with anything. This is a Dovekie, and I remember a
newsletter mentioning this was a typical Dovekie thing. Maybe thats
why they went to aluminum masts.
.
several owners prior, and the earliest owner was surprised the mast
had not rotted. It's sound, but has been varnished over probably
quite a few times. I didn't ask if anyone had previously tried
treating it with anything. This is a Dovekie, and I remember a
newsletter mentioning this was a typical Dovekie thing. Maybe thats
why they went to aluminum masts.
> Was your mast in a damp place out of the sun? That sounds likemildew.
> If so, bleach (aka sodium hypochlorite) is supposed to wash it off,at
.
Was your mast in a damp place out of the sun? That sounds like mildew.
If so, bleach (aka sodium hypochlorite) is supposed to wash it off, at
least on houses.
If so, bleach (aka sodium hypochlorite) is supposed to wash it off, at
least on houses.
--- In bolger@y..., "kayaker37" <kayaker37@h...> wrote:
>
> Do you know what issues? I have to redo my mast, which has some
yucky
> black stuff growing on it. Sound, but icky looking. I was planning
on
> the glycol treatment. Ethylene that is.
>
> > The "Wood Technology" column in WoodenBoat has written about both
> > salt and glycol as wood preservatives. Neither sounded like a very
> > good deal to me.
Do you know what issues? I have to redo my mast, which has some yucky
black stuff growing on it. Sound, but icky looking. I was planning on
the glycol treatment. Ethylene that is.
black stuff growing on it. Sound, but icky looking. I was planning on
the glycol treatment. Ethylene that is.
> The "Wood Technology" column in WoodenBoat has written about both
> salt and glycol as wood preservatives. Neither sounded like a very
> good deal to me.
Not just glycol, ethylene glycol!
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
>
> The "Wood Technology" column in WoodenBoat has written about both
> salt and glycol as wood preservatives. Neither sounded like a very
> good deal to me.
>
> Remember that antifreeze is both poisonous and sweet, so it presents
> a hazard to dogs and children. Similar to lead paint in terms of the
> attraction, although the poison is different.
>
> Peter
The "Wood Technology" column in WoodenBoat has written about both
salt and glycol as wood preservatives. Neither sounded like a very
good deal to me.
Remember that antifreeze is both poisonous and sweet, so it presents
a hazard to dogs and children. Similar to lead paint in terms of the
attraction, although the poison is different.
Peter
salt and glycol as wood preservatives. Neither sounded like a very
good deal to me.
Remember that antifreeze is both poisonous and sweet, so it presents
a hazard to dogs and children. Similar to lead paint in terms of the
attraction, although the poison is different.
Peter
I plan to do so this winter on the next project, a 17' rowboat,
however I think I'll wait a little longer than when it's "dry to the
touch", like a couple of days.
however I think I'll wait a little longer than when it's "dry to the
touch", like a couple of days.
--- In bolger@y..., "lowpine" <lowpineuno@a...> wrote:
> I interpret this as pretreat, dry, then epoxy--- "Once bare wood
has
> been treated with glycol or the borate solutions and become dry to
> the touch it can be finished or glued."
>
> Has anyone used DaveC's recommendation of pretreating all wood
> prior to glueing /encapsulation?
>
> stevenj
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "david@s..." <juliejj@n...> wrote:
> > You shoud go to the source and read Dave Carnel's article.
> > He also give a recipe for a more potent mixture of borax and
boric
> acid and anti freeze. My brother in law used it with great success
> rot proofing wood in south Florida.
> >
> >http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/rot.html
> >
> > David
> > www.simplicityboats.com
> > ~~~/^\
> > / \
> > / /
> > /_____/
> > _______ /___/
> > \__________/
> > \/
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: rnlocnil
> > To: bolger@y...
> > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 11:56 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] antifreeze wood preservative
> >
> >
> > Everyone just says glycol, but there are two types: ethylene
and
> > propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know
> which
> > is better for wood preservative.
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
> Fred' posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
> <snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I interpret this as pretreat, dry, then epoxy--- "Once bare wood has
been treated with glycol or the borate solutions and become dry to
the touch it can be finished or glued."
Has anyone used DaveC's recommendation of pretreating all wood
prior to glueing /encapsulation?
stevenj
been treated with glycol or the borate solutions and become dry to
the touch it can be finished or glued."
Has anyone used DaveC's recommendation of pretreating all wood
prior to glueing /encapsulation?
stevenj
--- In bolger@y..., "david@s..." <juliejj@n...> wrote:
> You shoud go to the source and read Dave Carnel's article.
> He also give a recipe for a more potent mixture of borax and boric
acid and anti freeze. My brother in law used it with great success
rot proofing wood in south Florida.
>
>http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/rot.html
>
> David
> www.simplicityboats.com
> ~~~/^\
> / \
> / /
> /_____/
> _______ /___/
> \__________/
> \/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rnlocnil
> To: bolger@y...
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 11:56 PM
> Subject: [bolger] antifreeze wood preservative
>
>
> Everyone just says glycol, but there are two types: ethylene and
> propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know
which
> is better for wood preservative.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
<snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@y...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In old time wooden ships often there was a "shelf" built directly
below the deck knees along the inside of the hull that went the
entire length of the ships. They were filled and refilled with salt
in order to turn the fresh rain water leaking in from rain into salt
water before it hit the bilges in order to stop rot.
below the deck knees along the inside of the hull that went the
entire length of the ships. They were filled and refilled with salt
in order to turn the fresh rain water leaking in from rain into salt
water before it hit the bilges in order to stop rot.
--- In bolger@y..., "rnlocnil" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> Salt is a food additive that prevents rot, so I think relative
> toxicity to us may not be a good guide. If I'm not mistaken, both
> propylene and ethylene glycol are available as antifreeze. Of
course,
> propylene glycol may be totally useless for this purpose.
> --- In bolger@y..., "kayaker37" <kayaker37@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Ethylene glycol is what is needed according to Carnells article.
> >
> > Propylene glycol is also used as a food additive. If its safe for
> us,
> > its probably no good as a wood preservative.
> >
> > > Everyone just says glycol, but there are two types: ethylene
and
> > > propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know
> > which
> > > is better for wood preservative.
Salt is a food additive that prevents rot, so I think relative
toxicity to us may not be a good guide. If I'm not mistaken, both
propylene and ethylene glycol are available as antifreeze. Of course,
propylene glycol may be totally useless for this purpose.
toxicity to us may not be a good guide. If I'm not mistaken, both
propylene and ethylene glycol are available as antifreeze. Of course,
propylene glycol may be totally useless for this purpose.
--- In bolger@y..., "kayaker37" <kayaker37@h...> wrote:
>
> Ethylene glycol is what is needed according to Carnells article.
>
> Propylene glycol is also used as a food additive. If its safe for
us,
> its probably no good as a wood preservative.
>
> > Everyone just says glycol, but there are two types: ethylene and
> > propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know
> which
> > is better for wood preservative.
You shoud go to the source and read Dave Carnel's article.
He also give a recipe for a more potent mixture of borax and boric acid and anti freeze. My brother in law used it with great success rot proofing wood in south Florida.
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/rot.html
David
www.simplicityboats.com
~~~/^\
/ \
/ /
/_____/
_______ /___/
\__________/
\/
He also give a recipe for a more potent mixture of borax and boric acid and anti freeze. My brother in law used it with great success rot proofing wood in south Florida.
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/rot.html
David
www.simplicityboats.com
~~~/^\
/ \
/ /
/_____/
_______ /___/
\__________/
\/
----- Original Message -----
From: rnlocnil
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 11:56 PM
Subject: [bolger] antifreeze wood preservative
Everyone just says glycol, but there are two types: ethylene and
propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know which
is better for wood preservative.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ethylene glycol is what is needed according to Carnells article.
Propylene glycol is also used as a food additive. If its safe for us,
its probably no good as a wood preservative.
Propylene glycol is also used as a food additive. If its safe for us,
its probably no good as a wood preservative.
> Everyone just says glycol, but there are two types: ethylene andwhich
> propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know
> is better for wood preservative.
Everyone just says glycol, but there are two types: ethylene and
propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know which
is better for wood preservative.
propylene. One is much more toxic than the other. I don't know which
is better for wood preservative.