Re: [bolger] Sailing our creations

On Monday 02 September 2002 21:27,juliejj@...wrote:
> There are methods of self steering downwind that involve the main and jib
> or double sails trimed angled out ahead of the mast, so boat direction is
> self correcting... just one reason someone might try "such a stunt".

I have never seen this, but it sounds like an interesting technique. It
sounds like a dunking waiting to happen on a small, tender dinghy in
heavy air. These are usually cat rigged too, so I doubt if you could self
steer.

--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
In a message dated 9/2/02 1:53:26 AM Central Daylight Time,
fountainb@...writes:


> Sailing by the lee does not involve swinging the boom
> ahead of the mast - I can't imagine why anyone would
> try such a stunt.

In light airs, on certain courses, this gives more speed than running broad
off. It's strickly a light-air gambit as: (1) the boat heels to windward as
the sail goes ahead of the mast; and then, the real excitement (2) the heel
reverses when you sheet back in square off on a reach or to jibe, accompanied
by some unusual steering dynamics. When the wind was too strong, I've managed
to extricate myself from this by chasing boom and tacking. Perhaps I was 1/2
way to re-inventing the "S-jibe" without realizing it! Anyway, it can be fun
if you're ghosting around trying to eke the most out of light and uncertain
winds.

Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 9/1/02 7:11:28 PM Central Daylight Time,jboatguy@...
writes:


> My impression is just about everything!
>
> Congratulations, you got my dander up with that comment....
>

I'm sure I came across on e-mail as more dogmatic than I intended - But
thanks for the extended exegsis on this S-jibe business. I'm still not sure I
fully grasp the concept, but I imagine it will become clearer as soon as I
get an opportunity to try it out. Perhaps I'm quasi-S-jibing in some
conditions without really grasping what I'm doing in those terms. Anyway,
thanks for the citation and explanation!

Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Bruce wrote:
>"Sailing by the lee does not involve swinging the boom
>ahead of the mast - I can't imagine why anyone would
>try such a stunt."
>
>There are methods of self steering downwind that involve the main
>and jib or double sails trimed angled out ahead of the mast, so boat
>direction is self correcting... just one reason someone might try
>"such a stunt".

In my Light Scooner, when you get far enough of the wind (but not on
a dead run) the foresail is completely blocked by the main. Sailing
the foresail by the lee make the boat go faster, and balance better.

YIBB,

David

--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
Bruce wrote:
"Sailing by the lee does not involve swinging the boom
ahead of the mast - I can't imagine why anyone would
try such a stunt."

There are methods of self steering downwind that involve the main and jib or double sails trimed angled out ahead of the mast, so boat direction is self correcting... just one reason someone might try "such a stunt".

David
www.simplicityboats.com
~~~/^\
/ \
/ /
/_____/
_______ /___/
\__________/
\/
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Fountain
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Sailing our creations


On Saturday 31 August 2002 08:06,wmrpage@...wrote:
> In a message dated 8/30/02 1:22:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
>jboatguy@...
>
> writes:
> > You're right! I wonder what else I got wrong!
>
> My impression is just about everything!

Charming...

> There are very few boats which allow one to let the boom out ahead of the
> mast ("sailing by the lee").

Sailing by the lee does not involve swinging the boom
ahead of the mast - I can't imagine why anyone would
try such a stunt. The test is simple - if you are running off
the wind, and both the sail and the wind are to port, then
you are sailing by the lee. Everyone sails by the lee
briefly as they jibe.

--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Saturday 31 August 2002 08:06,wmrpage@...wrote:
> In a message dated 8/30/02 1:22:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
>jboatguy@...
>
> writes:
> > You're right! I wonder what else I got wrong!
>
> My impression is just about everything!

Charming...

> There are very few boats which allow one to let the boom out ahead of the
> mast ("sailing by the lee").

Sailing by the lee does not involve swinging the boom
ahead of the mast - I can't imagine why anyone would
try such a stunt. The test is simple - if you are running off
the wind, and both the sail and the wind are to port, then
you are sailing by the lee. Everyone sails by the lee
briefly as they jibe.

--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
> > You're right! I wonder what else I got wrong!
> >
> My impression is just about everything!

Congratulations, you got my dander up with that comment....

First, my source: "The Racing Edge" by Ted Turner and Gary Jobson,
1979 Simon and Schuster. Page 79: "Use an S-jibe to keep your boat
under control when jibing in heavy wind."

Second, my experience: The S-jibe is an easy maneuver for a small
boat, and it works dramatically well.

> In general, if you want to make a jibe without any drama, you
should sheet
> the main to the centerline while steering across the eye of the
wind and let
> the sheet out in a controlled manner once you've passed through the
eye of
> the wind.

I sail in a windy, shifty, gusty area, and I don't like to get wet.
Your 'drama-less' method of jibing will not consistantly work,
period, in a breeze of wind, in a fore-and-aft rigged boat without at
times wild gyrations and even capsize. You call the S-jibe
complicated. I call it simpler than a jibe-swamp.

Consider: A turning boat heels. Your method of using rudder to help
initiate the jibe acts to heel the boat to what will be the new
leeward side before anything else happens. So, when the sail loses
the wind (and the wind's heeling action)the boat will begin to heel
to the new leeward faster than it otherwise would. Your initial
conditions before the sail even fills set you up to go far over.

When the sail does fill, in addition to the heeling force from the
sail, the boat wants to turn sharply into the wind making you heel to
leeward even more, for three reasons:

1: The rudder, if it hasn't been moved, is acting to turn the boat to
windward because that's the direction you've turned it.
2: The wind on the sail also acts to turn the boat to windward
because the boom is well off centerline, giving a turning moment.
3: The suddenly heeling boat also tends to turn the boat to windward,
by the action of the unsymmetrical underwater shape moving through
the water.

Initially (thank you Bruce, for pointing this out)the boat will be
making lots of leeway. Especially if your centerboard is down this
will tend to `trip' the boat, just like grabbing a jogger's leg, over
it's going to want to go.

Net result, the boat will heel WELL beyond what would be a steady-
state heel for those conditions.

The helmsman reacts with lots of lee helm suddenly applied, stopping
the turn but also slowing the boat (still more leeway), and quite
possibly stalling the rudder, rendering it ineffective and sending
the boat careening to windward, this time without anything to stop
it. Hopefully at some point the wind spills from the sail and the
boat comes more or less upright before it fills again. If it doesn't
you capsize or broach. If it does the boat goes through a few milder
gyrations, and off you go on the new tack. But one way or another
you're thinking that's the nature of jibes in fore-and-aft rigs, and
there's nothing to be done about it....

Wrong.

Don't use the tiller to initiate the jibe, at all. Use the sheet.
Turn the boat to follow the boom as it comes across. This acts to
heel the boat to the new windward, and counteracts not only the
filling sail trying to heel you to the new leeward, but also that big
turning moment suddenly forced on the boat. You now won't need huge
amounts of rudder action to counter her natural tendency to round up,
because the rudder is already countering it, and neither do you need
to stop your rudder-induced turn to the new windward, because the
sail filling is doing that for you.

There are very few boats which allow one to let the boom out ahead of
the
> mast ("sailing by the lee"). I suppose that "Cartopper", which has
no
> shrouds, is one of those. There are aerodynamic advantages to doing
so, but
> it will cause the boat to heel to windward, which can be
disconcerting.


If you don't like the idea of turning opposite the way you want to
go by following that boom, simply start the maneuver by turning in
the direction you do want to go before sheeting in the sail to start
the jibe. But while doing that, you might want to let the sheet out
some, so you don't jibe before you're ready to, thus the 'by the lee'
referance.

> Anyway, IMHO, you have provided needlessly complicated instructions
on how to
> jibe a small boat.
>
At one point in your post you say how easy it would be for you
to "clobber some guy in the back of the head with a boat's boom while
he was pissing over the lifelines."

If you've got lifelines, you don't have a very small boat. I'd say,
try it before you knock it. Because I've tried it both ways. This way
works much, much better. Every small boat sailor should know the
technique. I guarantee it'll save a few swims.

> Getting struck in the nape of the neck by a boom in an uncontrolled
jibe can
> be fatal.

I don't know of many Bolger rigs, or any rigs for that matter, that
allow the crew to take so much draft out of the sail prior to the
jibe that it won't at some point snap across, and hard - especially
if you're simultaneously turning. One way or the other that boom is
coming across! DUCK!

The question is: do you want fine control of the boom, or the boat?
And might it be possible that a wider swing will tend to lift the
boom more as it comes across, missing heads that it otherwise
wouldn't? And in your effort to keep the sail under control, aren't
you bearing down on your boom vang, pulling that boom closer to
heads? Isn't there also the possibility that a wider swing gives more
reaction time than a sudden, nearer centerline snap?

A final plea: My narrow-bottomend 11'6" Cartopper with a 16' stick is
tender. I use the S-jibe out of self-defense. Many other boats, even
poorly handled, even in a breeze, won't easily capsize, and even if
they do are easy to right.

But, I wonder how many wives, girlfriends, friends, kids, etc. have
been turned off to small boat sailing, forever, because of that
occasional wild, nearly out of control gyration jibing can induce?
How many former sailors are no longer sailors because they became
afraid of their boat after going over, or nearly going over, once too
often, or because it's no longer a family activity, because no one
wants to go out with them?

An acquaintance had to be talked out of selling his like-new Escape
because he dumped her when a shifting gust caught him just as he was
starting a jibe, and she turned turtle. He felt like there was
nothing he could do; she just went over. He was wrong, but that
feeling of complete lack of control nearly turned him off to sailing
forever. Had he known of the s-jibe, had he just automatically
followed the boom when it snapped over, it might not have been
pretty, but he would have stayed in control. It wasn't that big a
gust.

I saw another friend in his first time out in his new, used 12'
Pelican, a huge boat for it's length, almost an Oldshoe. He got
severely knocked about as he tried to maneuver into the ramp in a
rapidly rising breeze. Three times he went WAY over. It's a great
boat built to handle the SF bay, and it brought him through dry and
safe, but he had his wife and young daughter aboard, and it'll be
some time before he'll be able to talk them out onto the boat again,
if he ever can. And in fact he hasn't been out since. It was not a
fun way to end the outing. But with a little practice, there would
have been no WAY over, no recriminations, explanations, no
embarassments, no gyrations, nothing but a clean sail cleanly ended.

Because in the end, a crew without confidence in the skipper will
soon revolt, and wild gyrations, explained away or not, do not make
for confidence. The S-jibe, used by small boats in a breeze of wind,
can cure the worst of those wild gyrations, and help make a new
skipper look, and feel, like an old salt.

John O'Neill








--- In bolger@y..., wmrpage@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/30/02 1:22:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
jboatguy@c...
> writes:
>
>
>
>
There was a small conspiracy theory industry born about a decade
> ago (well, maybe two decades ago) about a "spook" (CIA, NSA,
something) who
> died in Chesapeake Bay, apparently by this mechanism. Shortly
thereafter
> (within a year or so) an acquaintance of a classmate of mine
definitely met
> his demise by this mechanism when his wife accidentally jibed their
boat on
> the same body of water. (I believe it was deemed to be an accident.
On the
> other hand, I certainly would able to I wouldn't
> knowingly marry the decedent's widow!)
>

> Ciao for Niao,
> Bill in MN
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
During my attempts during the last year and a half or so to drive local
boaters together for messabouts, I've discovered that the most important
thing to look for in a messabout spot is a nice beach where we can all stand
around the boats and talk about them. The Right Sort of boater just loves
talking about boats, and a messabout provides an audience of other people
who speak the same language. Most people would be bored to tears within 10
minutes if you started rambling on about the fine points of your pride and
joy and her construction, so when you've got an audience who really
understands, who'd want to waste that marvelous opportunity by going
sailing? <g> Seriously, messabouts are primarily social, you don't need all
those people around to enjoy sailing. I imagine most of us use and enjoy our
boats plenty when there aren't people around to yap with.

On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 04:34:21 -0000, oneillparker wrote:
> ...
> It occurred to me ... that we get remarkably few posts
> about actually using these boats we build. I once went to a TSCA get
> together. After three hours of gabbing about our boats, we sailed for
> about 15 minutes, this on a gorgeous sailing day on a gorgeous,
> crystal clear lake! Methinks boat builders prefer building to using.
> ...

--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
I cannot help thinking that the people with motor boats miss a great deal.
If they would only keep to rowboats or canoes, and use oar or paddle...
they would get infinitely more benefit than by having their work done for
them by gasoline. <Theodore Roosevelt>
Actually, it probably depends on what you're sailing. I seem to recall
doing that little wiggle successfully on some boats to soften the
jibe. And if you have the sprit boomed Cartopper, it'd be pretty hard
and pretty dumb to stand up far enough to get clobbered. With the
other rig there's no boom at all! And heeling to windward helps with
the steering. However, tho I've sailed other tender or rolly polly
boats (such as Tech Dinghy), I haven't sailed a Cartopper, and in any
case it's been a long while.
--- In bolger@y..., wmrpage@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/30/02 1:22:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
jboatguy@c...
> writes:
>
>
> > You're right! I wonder what else I got wrong!
> >
> >
>
> My impression is just about everything!
>
snip
Actually, it probably depends on what you're sailing. I seem to recall
doing that little wiggle successfully on some boats to soften the
jibe. And if you have the sprit boomed Cartopper, it'd be pretty hard
and pretty dumb to stand up far enough to get clobbered. With the
other rig there's no boom at all! And heeling to windward helps with
the steering.
--- In bolger@y..., wmrpage@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/30/02 1:22:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
jboatguy@c...
> writes:
>
>
> > You're right! I wonder what else I got wrong!
> >
> >
>
> My impression is just about everything!
>
snip
In a message dated 8/30/02 1:22:44 AM Central Daylight Time,jboatguy@...
writes:


> You're right! I wonder what else I got wrong!
>
>

My impression is just about everything!

But perhaps between your typos and my assumptions I've may have missed
something. My first impression was that you had confused a "jibe" and a
"tack", but evidently not. I apologize any unintended defamatory content.

There are very few boats which allow one to let the boom out ahead of the
mast ("sailing by the lee"). I suppose that "Cartopper", which has no
shrouds, is one of those. There are aerodynamic advantages to doing so, but
it will cause the boat to heel to windward, which can be disconcerting.
Sheeting in from that position will cause a reversal in the heeling
direction, which adds more excitement to sailing than is absolutely necessary
to accomplish a jibe.

In general, if you want to make a jibe without any drama, you should sheet
the main to the centerline while steering across the eye of the wind and let
the sheet out in a controlled manner once you've passed through the eye of
the wind. This way the boom is always under control and doesn't come flying
across the cockpit in an uncontrolled manner and doesn't fetch up against the
sheet with a great big "bang".

Getting struck in the nape of the neck by a boom in an uncontrolled jibe can
be fatal. There was a small conspiracy theory industry born about a decade
ago (well, maybe two decades ago) about a "spook" (CIA, NSA, something) who
died in Chesapeake Bay, apparently by this mechanism. Shortly thereafter
(within a year or so) an acquaintance of a classmate of mine definitely met
his demise by this mechanism when his wife accidentally jibed their boat on
the same body of water. (I believe it was deemed to be an accident. On the
other hand, I certainly would able to clobber some guy in the back of the
head with a boat's boom while he was pissing over the lifelines. I wouldn't
knowingly marry the decedent's widow!)

Anyway, IMHO, you have provided needlessly complicated instructions on how to
jibe a small boat.

Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John,

Thanks again for your helpful response (I finally read my Yahoo
mail).

Here's another question. It seems that the Cartopper, with its CB
so far foreward, is well equipped to heave-to. If you keep the
board down, dowse the sail and raise the rudder I would expect it to
round-up to the wind nicely. Have you tried this?

Also, did you run lines to your rudder for raising/lowering, or do
you rely on the friction of a nut (Payson's suggestion) or did you
weight the rudder? I was surprised that the plans call for pouring
lead in the CB but not the rudder.

Kellan
You're right! I wonder what else I got wrong!

And you're right about raising the centerboard downwind too. One
other small boat, downwind trick is to use your weight to heel the
boat to windward, opposite where the wind wants to put it, so as to
keep the center of effort of the sail closer to the centerline of the
boat. That way the boat stays balanced, and you won't need as much
rudder to keep her pointed straight.

--- In bolger@y..., Bruce Fountain <fountainb@s...> wrote:
> On Friday 30 August 2002 12:34, oneillparker wrote:
>
> Some excellent tips, except that you probably meant "dead downwind".
>
>
On Friday 30 August 2002 12:34, oneillparker wrote:

Some excellent tips, except that you probably meant "dead downwind".

> Say you're sailing pretty much dead upwind with the sail on the port
> side (starboard tack). But now you need to turn left, so the sail is
> going to have to end up on the starboard side.
> Step 1: Steer a bit to the left - in the direction you want
> to turn - while simultaneously easing the sheet to keep the sail
> square to the wind and preventing a premature jibe. (You are now "by
> the lee" with the boom out ahead of the mast).
> Step 2: While sailing a straight line, pull the sheet in
> sharply (thus using the sheet, not the tiller, to start the jibe).
> Step 3: (The key to the entire maneuver) As the wind catches
> the sail and flops it over, in this case left to right, steer to the
> right, following the boom, and opposite to the way you want to go.
> Don't steer so far you jibe again!
> Step 4: With the sail on the other side, and the boat safely
> under control, steer back to the left onto the course you want to
> follow, trimming as necessary.

Another tip, from my laser sailing days: a lot of people leave the
daggerboard down while jibing, thinking that it will help give the
boat stability (I know I did). Wrong! What happens is, as the boat
slews around it "trips" over the board and you end up sitting on
the sail. Imagine you are cornering in a car, and the grip on your
tyres is so good that you roll the car, rather than just hanging
the rear end out a bit. So raise the board before you jibe (you
should probably have it up anyway if you are running off the
wind).

Overpowered cat rig boats can also be pretty unstable running
downwind - you have a whole lot of sail hanging out to one side
of the boat - which can lead to what is known as a "death roll",
an unintentional jibe, and a wet sailor. To avoid the death roll
try not to sail directly downwind if you can help it. If you can't
help it then pull the main in slightly so that you are sailing partly
by the lee. This moves the centre of effort of the sail closer to
the boat's centre line. Don't bring it in too far or you will jibe.

--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
Kellan is at the point of finishing his Cartopper and asked me for a
review of their sailing qualities. The result was long, so I sent it
to him direct. If anyone is interested I'd be happy to send it along.

It occurred to me while writing it that we get remarkably few posts
about actually using these boats we build. I once went to a TSCA get
together. After three hours of gabbing about our boats, we sailed for
about 15 minutes, this on a gorgeous sailing day on a gorgeous,
crystal clear lake! Methinks boat builders prefer building to using.

Regardless, I thought I'd pass this tip along. Cartoppers are tender
craft. Jibing in a breeze can be a white knuckle experience to the
average small boat sailor–even in more stable craft. It certainly was
to me in Cartopper.

I discovered this common small boat racing technique in a book by
Gary Jobson and Ted Turner. It's works like a dream, and will cure
that white knuckle disease in anyone who gives it some practice. It's
called the S-jibe.

Say you're sailing pretty much dead upwind with the sail on the port
side (starboard tack). But now you need to turn left, so the sail is
going to have to end up on the starboard side.
Step 1: Steer a bit to the left - in the direction you want
to turn - while simultaneously easing the sheet to keep the sail
square to the wind and preventing a premature jibe. (You are now "by
the lee" with the boom out ahead of the mast).
Step 2: While sailing a straight line, pull the sheet in
sharply (thus using the sheet, not the tiller, to start the jibe).
Step 3: (The key to the entire maneuver) As the wind catches
the sail and flops it over, in this case left to right, steer to the
right, following the boom, and opposite to the way you want to go.
Don't steer so far you jibe again!
Step 4: With the sail on the other side, and the boat safely
under control, steer back to the left onto the course you want to
follow, trimming as necessary.

The whole idea is to de-power the main as it comes across and
snatches up, keeping the boat under the mast during the whole
process. It takes a lot longer to read than to do, and it works like
a charm. Step 1 sets you up so you won't end up sailing way out of
your way at step 3, and possibly into another jibe. Step 2 keeps the
boat from slowing due to rudder action, giving you maximum steerage
when you need it and lessening the amount of sheet payed out.

When you're out there trying to remember all this, wondering
which is left and who is right, just remember, "follow the boom!"
That one maneuver makes a huge difference.

Get out there and use those boats!

--- In bolger@y..., "dagon_gsl" <dagon_gsl@y...> wrote:
>
> Hey John,
>
> My Cartopper's nearing completion. I'm hoping to be in the water
> before it starts getting cold.
>
> I was just wondering if you could share some information about what
> to expect from the boat....
Hey John,

My Cartopper's nearing completion. I'm hoping to be in the water
before it starts getting cold.

I was just wondering if you could share some information about what
to expect from the boat in terms of sailing and rowing performance,
stability, capsize recovery, etc, and any tips that you think might
be useful. I went with the sprit rig option but I'll probably be
rowing for a while before the rig and foils are finished. I've
heard that the Cartopper is pretty tender but that it handles rough
water fairly well. What's your opinion, based on experience? What
would you/wouldn't you do with this boat? How many people (children
and/or adults) can it realistically accomodate for daysailing?

Thanks,
Kellan
I can attest that John's boats are beautiful. He did a great job on
both and he is a true craftsman. I have found some time lately to
work on mine...all the inner and outer joints are taped and
'glassed. I bought enough cloth to cover the bottom and bilges and
will get to it before the weekend. I'm going the economy route, AC
ply and polyester resin. I've built six boats with it using either
AC or Luan for wood without failures that weren't due to mistakes on
my part. I did find a stack of Luan at Home Despot last weekend that
was drop dead beautiful. It was a rare find and I grabbed three
sheets. The good face was a light color...I'm used to the reddish
stuff. I'll have to wear a mask while cutting it...its the only
thing in the shop that gives me a reaction. But its pretty and
without marks or obvious voids. There may be a small rowing boat
hiding in it.