Re: flooding and delamination,conclusions?
--- In bolger@y..., "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
I've worked with other types in the far away past but have been
using the Industrial Formulators of Canada line of epoxy now for the
past 15 odd years.These are the guys famous for their Cold Cure
epoxy.The regular stuff I use in most applications is called G-2 and
when doing any glassing,I use their laminating resin which goes by
the hard to remember name of HrA-4989 or something like it.When I
call my local retailer,I just call it G-3 and he knows what I'm
taking about.
I seem to recall that System Three bought them out a couple of
years ago but still carry their line.
Peter Lenihan
>which
> Hi Peter,
>
> Which brand of runny epoxy are you using?. I generally use West
> as you probably know is like cool honey (great for a filleting baseJules,
> but . . .)
>
> Thanks
>
> Jules
I've worked with other types in the far away past but have been
using the Industrial Formulators of Canada line of epoxy now for the
past 15 odd years.These are the guys famous for their Cold Cure
epoxy.The regular stuff I use in most applications is called G-2 and
when doing any glassing,I use their laminating resin which goes by
the hard to remember name of HrA-4989 or something like it.When I
call my local retailer,I just call it G-3 and he knows what I'm
taking about.
I seem to recall that System Three bought them out a couple of
years ago but still carry their line.
Peter Lenihan
Hi Peter,
Which brand of runny epoxy are you using?. I generally use West which
as you probably know is like cool honey (great for a filleting base
but . . .)
Thanks
Jules
Which brand of runny epoxy are you using?. I generally use West which
as you probably know is like cool honey (great for a filleting base
but . . .)
Thanks
Jules
--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> > FWIW, the glass tape that delaminated was on MDO.
>
>
> Hi Richard,
> The report does mention the need to sand the surface of the
> phenolic test piece for maximum results.
> It has been my experience that a number of builder
controlable
> variables should be considered to ensure quality
> laminations,especially when glassing over MDO.First,is to give the
> surface a good sanding,enough to actually change the colour of the
> surface by a shade or two lighter,with a 60 to 80 weight
paper.Avoid
> sanding right though the phenolic overlay! Next,whenever
possible,use
> a laminating epoxy resin instead of the regular epoxy resins which
> may be too thick to give deep penetration.The stuff I've been using
> flows just like water and,as you can imagine,soaks in just as fast.
> This type of work should be done(again,whenever possible) when it
is
> warm/hot and dry.Cool damp days can certainly lessen the chance of
> good penetration.Getting on the work early in the day is also
better
> then doing later in the day when things may cool down abit and
> moisture can precipitate out of the atmosphere. One final
observation
> is to be choisy with your MDO.I've seen alot of stuff up here that
> calls itself MDO or just Crezon and it ain't worth
> crap.Apparently,there are some manufacturers that try to copy the
> Simpson product without getting the quality right.Either their
> laminates are full of unplugged voids or the overlay resembles
kraft
> paper glued on with white carpenters glue.....junk!
> Anyway,I clearly have no idea how you procceeded with your
> construction or exactly why things failed but I do believe you are
on
> the right track towards ultimately finding answers and hopefully
> better techniques so that your efforts are not all in vain.
>
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,sneaking in time while at work,ha,ha,hee,hee, the
boss
> can't see me!!!!
FRP? GRP? Sounds like the same thing to me! THat "P" is the resin, no?
To me, this whole encapsulation thing seems a little optimistic, tho I
admit I try to do it sometimes.
To me, this whole encapsulation thing seems a little optimistic, tho I
admit I try to do it sometimes.
--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
snip
> Lincoln,
> You are,of course,correct regarding FRP.....I ran into a
> mental block(one of many in my attic) and couldn't exactly recall
> that it is GRP that is fiberglass.Thanks for the heads up!!
> Again,the report seems to suggest that it is ONLY pieces of
> wood EXPOSED to wet dry cycles.That is,raw lumber without any
attempt
> to seal and protect the laminate/glue line,that fails.It would be
> most illuminating to see the same tests applied to a properly
> sealed/encapsulated bit of wood.Also,it would appear to me that
> joints made where there is no standing water but which are properly
> sealed will never really qualify or be subjected to the type of
> wet/dry cycling the research applies to.
> Happy building!
>
> Peter Lenihan,convinced he could build an entire castle with all the
> blocks in me head........
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
The report does mention the need to sand the surface of the
phenolic test piece for maximum results.
It has been my experience that a number of builder controlable
variables should be considered to ensure quality
laminations,especially when glassing over MDO.First,is to give the
surface a good sanding,enough to actually change the colour of the
surface by a shade or two lighter,with a 60 to 80 weight paper.Avoid
sanding right though the phenolic overlay! Next,whenever possible,use
a laminating epoxy resin instead of the regular epoxy resins which
may be too thick to give deep penetration.The stuff I've been using
flows just like water and,as you can imagine,soaks in just as fast.
This type of work should be done(again,whenever possible) when it is
warm/hot and dry.Cool damp days can certainly lessen the chance of
good penetration.Getting on the work early in the day is also better
then doing later in the day when things may cool down abit and
moisture can precipitate out of the atmosphere. One final observation
is to be choisy with your MDO.I've seen alot of stuff up here that
calls itself MDO or just Crezon and it ain't worth
crap.Apparently,there are some manufacturers that try to copy the
Simpson product without getting the quality right.Either their
laminates are full of unplugged voids or the overlay resembles kraft
paper glued on with white carpenters glue.....junk!
Anyway,I clearly have no idea how you procceeded with your
construction or exactly why things failed but I do believe you are on
the right track towards ultimately finding answers and hopefully
better techniques so that your efforts are not all in vain.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,sneaking in time while at work,ha,ha,hee,hee, the boss
can't see me!!!!
> FWIW, the glass tape that delaminated was on MDO.Hi Richard,
The report does mention the need to sand the surface of the
phenolic test piece for maximum results.
It has been my experience that a number of builder controlable
variables should be considered to ensure quality
laminations,especially when glassing over MDO.First,is to give the
surface a good sanding,enough to actually change the colour of the
surface by a shade or two lighter,with a 60 to 80 weight paper.Avoid
sanding right though the phenolic overlay! Next,whenever possible,use
a laminating epoxy resin instead of the regular epoxy resins which
may be too thick to give deep penetration.The stuff I've been using
flows just like water and,as you can imagine,soaks in just as fast.
This type of work should be done(again,whenever possible) when it is
warm/hot and dry.Cool damp days can certainly lessen the chance of
good penetration.Getting on the work early in the day is also better
then doing later in the day when things may cool down abit and
moisture can precipitate out of the atmosphere. One final observation
is to be choisy with your MDO.I've seen alot of stuff up here that
calls itself MDO or just Crezon and it ain't worth
crap.Apparently,there are some manufacturers that try to copy the
Simpson product without getting the quality right.Either their
laminates are full of unplugged voids or the overlay resembles kraft
paper glued on with white carpenters glue.....junk!
Anyway,I clearly have no idea how you procceeded with your
construction or exactly why things failed but I do believe you are on
the right track towards ultimately finding answers and hopefully
better techniques so that your efforts are not all in vain.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,sneaking in time while at work,ha,ha,hee,hee, the boss
can't see me!!!!
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
You are,of course,correct regarding FRP.....I ran into a
mental block(one of many in my attic) and couldn't exactly recall
that it is GRP that is fiberglass.Thanks for the heads up!!
Again,the report seems to suggest that it is ONLY pieces of
wood EXPOSED to wet dry cycles.That is,raw lumber without any attempt
to seal and protect the laminate/glue line,that fails.It would be
most illuminating to see the same tests applied to a properly
sealed/encapsulated bit of wood.Also,it would appear to me that
joints made where there is no standing water but which are properly
sealed will never really qualify or be subjected to the type of
wet/dry cycling the research applies to.
Happy building!
Peter Lenihan,convinced he could build an entire castle with all the
blocks in me head........
> Excellent tip. Thanks. Now all we have to figure out is where toget
> that funny chemical for the pieces we glue that are not MDO.Lincoln,
>
> I'm pretty sure that FRP stands for fiberglass reinforced plastic,
> i.e. fiberglass with some kind of resin, not just the glass alone.
> snip
You are,of course,correct regarding FRP.....I ran into a
mental block(one of many in my attic) and couldn't exactly recall
that it is GRP that is fiberglass.Thanks for the heads up!!
Again,the report seems to suggest that it is ONLY pieces of
wood EXPOSED to wet dry cycles.That is,raw lumber without any attempt
to seal and protect the laminate/glue line,that fails.It would be
most illuminating to see the same tests applied to a properly
sealed/encapsulated bit of wood.Also,it would appear to me that
joints made where there is no standing water but which are properly
sealed will never really qualify or be subjected to the type of
wet/dry cycling the research applies to.
Happy building!
Peter Lenihan,convinced he could build an entire castle with all the
blocks in me head........
FWIW, the glass tape that delaminated was on MDO.
Interestingly, now that it's dryed out, I have a hard time pulling the tape
up. Some of the delaminated tape pysicaly came off, and some just appeared
to have air under it when it was all wet. The part that was white as if it
had air under it appears to still be adhered.
I'm going to pull cut the loose sections away and apply glass fiber cabosil
putty in a nice fillet.
Interestingly, now that it's dryed out, I have a hard time pulling the tape
up. Some of the delaminated tape pysicaly came off, and some just appeared
to have air under it when it was all wet. The part that was white as if it
had air under it appears to still be adhered.
I'm going to pull cut the loose sections away and apply glass fiber cabosil
putty in a nice fillet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 6:08 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: flooding and delamination,conclusions?
| Some very good news is that it would appear that using MDO for
| boatbuilding will result in a stronger more robust and water-
| resistant finished product.The researcher discovered that when using
| FRP and epoxy over a phenolic base,which is what the MDO is all
| about,the"ultimate" bonding properties of epoxy were increased
| substantially.........or at least enough for it to meet the various
| codes/standards mentioned in the report.
see below
--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
snip
> You owe it to yourself to check out the document Richard
> posted the link to.Great stuff to read when you need to see how some
> research is done.
> HDO(high density overlay) is just as easy to glue to as MDO
> just so long as you remember to give the overlay a sanding.This is
> talked about in the document,by the way.
I did read it but I guess I forgot that part.
> I have used HDO exclusively to construct the entire bottom
> and box keel for WINDERMERE and remain VERY impressed with its
> performance.
> 1/4" MDO is available around you,from Simpson Ply.Drop them
> an e-mail on their web site and they will let you know the nearest
> retailer that carries their stuff or,at the very least,how to get
the
> retailer to special order it for you.
Excellent tip. Thanks. Now all we have to figure out is where to get
that funny chemical for the pieces we glue that are not MDO.
> FRP is fiberglass,or at least that is how it is refered to
in
> England.............
I'm pretty sure that FRP stands for fiberglass reinforced plastic,
i.e. fiberglass with some kind of resin, not just the glass alone.
snip
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
You owe it to yourself to check out the document Richard
posted the link to.Great stuff to read when you need to see how some
research is done.
HDO(high density overlay) is just as easy to glue to as MDO
just so long as you remember to give the overlay a sanding.This is
talked about in the document,by the way.
I have used HDO exclusively to construct the entire bottom
and box keel for WINDERMERE and remain VERY impressed with its
performance.
1/4" MDO is available around you,from Simpson Ply.Drop them
an e-mail on their web site and they will let you know the nearest
retailer that carries their stuff or,at the very least,how to get the
retailer to special order it for you.
FRP is fiberglass,or at least that is how it is refered to in
England.............
Don't be such a pessimist,Lincoln!Were it not for water and
wood no one here would be going insane over boats ;-)
Happy Reading!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan...........
> Is HMR related to resorcinol glue? Could one use resorcinol gluethis
> way??? Is there a source for HMR? I"m a pessimist about water andas
> wood.
>
> Isn't it fiberglass and epoxy, or FRP? (P being plastic?).
>
> What do you use HDO for? I understood that it was hard to glue to,
> opposed to MDO. (I wish there was 1/4 or 5mm MDO around here!Hi Lincoln,
You owe it to yourself to check out the document Richard
posted the link to.Great stuff to read when you need to see how some
research is done.
HDO(high density overlay) is just as easy to glue to as MDO
just so long as you remember to give the overlay a sanding.This is
talked about in the document,by the way.
I have used HDO exclusively to construct the entire bottom
and box keel for WINDERMERE and remain VERY impressed with its
performance.
1/4" MDO is available around you,from Simpson Ply.Drop them
an e-mail on their web site and they will let you know the nearest
retailer that carries their stuff or,at the very least,how to get the
retailer to special order it for you.
FRP is fiberglass,or at least that is how it is refered to in
England.............
Don't be such a pessimist,Lincoln!Were it not for water and
wood no one here would be going insane over boats ;-)
Happy Reading!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan...........
Is HMR related to resorcinol glue? Could one use resorcinol glue this
way??? Is there a source for HMR? I"m a pessimist about water and
wood.
Isn't it fiberglass and epoxy, or FRP? (P being plastic?).
What do you use HDO for? I understood that it was hard to glue to, as
opposed to MDO. (I wish there was 1/4 or 5mm MDO around here!
way??? Is there a source for HMR? I"m a pessimist about water and
wood.
Isn't it fiberglass and epoxy, or FRP? (P being plastic?).
What do you use HDO for? I understood that it was hard to glue to, as
opposed to MDO. (I wish there was 1/4 or 5mm MDO around here!
--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
snip"Epoxy adhesives develop bonds to wood that are as
> strong as the wood itself,as long as the bonds remain dry".snip
> The report does illustrate the enhanced bonding properties of
> epoxy when used on joints primed with hydroxymethlated resorcinol
> (HMR) but this treatment appears to apply only to structures NOT
> otherwise sealed/coated against wet environments.snip
> Some very good news is that it would appear that using MDO for
> boatbuilding will result in a stronger more robust and water-
> resistant finished product.The researcher discovered that when using
> FRP and epoxy over a phenolic base,which is what the MDO is all
> about,the"ultimate" bonding properties of epoxy were increased
> substantially.........snip
> "epoxy adhesives may equal the structural durability of resorcinol
> adhesives on wood if the wood surfaces are primed with HMR" Not a
bad
> thing considering the actual building techniques required between
> epoxy and resorcinol......
>
snip
> Peter Lenihan,big time believer/user of MDO and HDO overlayed
> plywoods,here on the shores of the filthy St.Lawrence.........
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
Thanks for this interesting link.Hope you do not mind a late
response to your question.
Based on my understanding of the report,I would say,no to
priming.The reasoning for this simply is that if we build our boats
with epoxy and properly coat all exposed surfaces with same,then the
joint or lamination will remain dry.This is the key,for the report
does state that"Epoxy adhesives develop bonds to wood that are as
strong as the wood itself,as long as the bonds remain dry".This
further suggest to me that any parts which are expected to remain
immersed for long periods of time(not dry sailed boats) should,in
addition to the epoxy,be given a barrier coat.Essentially,from the
waterline down.
The report does illustrate the enhanced bonding properties of
epoxy when used on joints primed with hydroxymethlated resorcinol
(HMR) but this treatment appears to apply only to structures NOT
otherwise sealed/coated against wet environments.( by the way,this
report used a 120 hour boil-dry test!!!Holy jumpin' jelly beans!)
Some very good news is that it would appear that using MDO for
boatbuilding will result in a stronger more robust and water-
resistant finished product.The researcher discovered that when using
FRP and epoxy over a phenolic base,which is what the MDO is all
about,the"ultimate" bonding properties of epoxy were increased
substantially.........or at least enough for it to meet the various
codes/standards mentioned in the report.
A couple of intersting quotes from the report;
"epoxy adhesives may equal the structural durability of resorcinol
adhesives on wood if the wood surfaces are primed with HMR" Not a bad
thing considering the actual building techniques required between
epoxy and resorcinol......
"The capability of epoxy to bond to both wood and plastics presents
an opportunity for making strong and durable composites from FRP and
wood". Good news for the fiberglass over plywood gang especially when
the above mentioned phenolic resin overlay advantage is used!
Anyway,just thought you may like an opinion on this report.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,big time believer/user of MDO and HDO overlayed
plywoods,here on the shores of the filthy St.Lawrence.........
> Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy jointswith this
> stuff?Richard,
>
>http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
>
Thanks for this interesting link.Hope you do not mind a late
response to your question.
Based on my understanding of the report,I would say,no to
priming.The reasoning for this simply is that if we build our boats
with epoxy and properly coat all exposed surfaces with same,then the
joint or lamination will remain dry.This is the key,for the report
does state that"Epoxy adhesives develop bonds to wood that are as
strong as the wood itself,as long as the bonds remain dry".This
further suggest to me that any parts which are expected to remain
immersed for long periods of time(not dry sailed boats) should,in
addition to the epoxy,be given a barrier coat.Essentially,from the
waterline down.
The report does illustrate the enhanced bonding properties of
epoxy when used on joints primed with hydroxymethlated resorcinol
(HMR) but this treatment appears to apply only to structures NOT
otherwise sealed/coated against wet environments.( by the way,this
report used a 120 hour boil-dry test!!!Holy jumpin' jelly beans!)
Some very good news is that it would appear that using MDO for
boatbuilding will result in a stronger more robust and water-
resistant finished product.The researcher discovered that when using
FRP and epoxy over a phenolic base,which is what the MDO is all
about,the"ultimate" bonding properties of epoxy were increased
substantially.........or at least enough for it to meet the various
codes/standards mentioned in the report.
A couple of intersting quotes from the report;
"epoxy adhesives may equal the structural durability of resorcinol
adhesives on wood if the wood surfaces are primed with HMR" Not a bad
thing considering the actual building techniques required between
epoxy and resorcinol......
"The capability of epoxy to bond to both wood and plastics presents
an opportunity for making strong and durable composites from FRP and
wood". Good news for the fiberglass over plywood gang especially when
the above mentioned phenolic resin overlay advantage is used!
Anyway,just thought you may like an opinion on this report.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,big time believer/user of MDO and HDO overlayed
plywoods,here on the shores of the filthy St.Lawrence.........
WONDERFUL description.....will commit to memory....
Norm
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: proaconstrictor
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 10:57 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: flooding and delamination
--- In bolger@y..., wmrpage@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/11/02 4:13:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
> proaconstrictor@y... writes:
Basicaly T&T are built inside out (frames first), and S&G are built
outside in.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well you got your money's worth ! Next time paint it with varnish mixed with copper dust. It will turn green (copper sulfate) and kill all plant live. This is the stuff they put in farm pond to kill weeds. And on Chris Craft bottoms before there was an EPA.
CCG
dnjost wrote:Richard,
The boat is 10 years old, and I let the water sit in it far longer
than I should have between rainstorms. There were actual shelf-fungi
growing on the wood! Despite this, I probably could have used it
anyway. If I had been more vigilant I would not have had to do
this. The boat lives outside and it often would fill up with
rain/leaves/snow,small animals. I did put in an automatic bilge pump
last year that helped quite a bit.
The boat is just about as good as new from the third frame aft,
actually a little better than new as I used mahogany decking for the
framing, and glassed the seats.
I built a nymph over 18 years ago that is still going strong. It was
glassed in polyesther resin and the inside was just coated with the
resin and painted. The current owner happens to be a parent of one
of my students at the school I teach at. He is very happy with it.
David Jost
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CCG
dnjost wrote:Richard,
The boat is 10 years old, and I let the water sit in it far longer
than I should have between rainstorms. There were actual shelf-fungi
growing on the wood! Despite this, I probably could have used it
anyway. If I had been more vigilant I would not have had to do
this. The boat lives outside and it often would fill up with
rain/leaves/snow,small animals. I did put in an automatic bilge pump
last year that helped quite a bit.
The boat is just about as good as new from the third frame aft,
actually a little better than new as I used mahogany decking for the
framing, and glassed the seats.
I built a nymph over 18 years ago that is still going strong. It was
glassed in polyesther resin and the inside was just coated with the
resin and painted. The current owner happens to be a parent of one
of my students at the school I teach at. He is very happy with it.
David Jost
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Richard,
The boat is 10 years old, and I let the water sit in it far longer
than I should have between rainstorms. There were actual shelf-fungi
growing on the wood! Despite this, I probably could have used it
anyway. If I had been more vigilant I would not have had to do
this. The boat lives outside and it often would fill up with
rain/leaves/snow,small animals. I did put in an automatic bilge pump
last year that helped quite a bit.
The boat is just about as good as new from the third frame aft,
actually a little better than new as I used mahogany decking for the
framing, and glassed the seats.
I built a nymph over 18 years ago that is still going strong. It was
glassed in polyesther resin and the inside was just coated with the
resin and painted. The current owner happens to be a parent of one
of my students at the school I teach at. He is very happy with it.
David Jost
The boat is 10 years old, and I let the water sit in it far longer
than I should have between rainstorms. There were actual shelf-fungi
growing on the wood! Despite this, I probably could have used it
anyway. If I had been more vigilant I would not have had to do
this. The boat lives outside and it often would fill up with
rain/leaves/snow,small animals. I did put in an automatic bilge pump
last year that helped quite a bit.
The boat is just about as good as new from the third frame aft,
actually a little better than new as I used mahogany decking for the
framing, and glassed the seats.
I built a nymph over 18 years ago that is still going strong. It was
glassed in polyesther resin and the inside was just coated with the
resin and painted. The current owner happens to be a parent of one
of my students at the school I teach at. He is very happy with it.
David Jost
--- In bolger@y..., wmrpage@a... wrote:
Building the New Instant Boat (and presumably the Instant Boats book
also) which are T&T not S&G. Main differences are that the boats
were designed for poly construction. Panels are set up with a bunch
of permanent frames, and nailed together, not all panels are defined,
and those not defined are spiled from the partialy framed boat by
each builder.
Typicaly S&G boats are stiched together, frames are not necesary for
hull set-up, though they may facilitate it. Epoxy and tape are used
to hold the boat together. All panel contours are predefined.
Basicaly T&T are built inside out (frames first), and S&G are built
outside in.
> In a message dated 9/11/02 4:13:49 PM Central Daylight Time,boat
> proaconstrictor@y... writes:
>
>
> > We all understand that there are a bunch of bulkheads in a T&T
>familiar with
> Oh my! One of us lacks full understanding. I am actually not
> the term "tack-and-tape". How does "tack-and-tape" differ fromthe former?
> "stich-and-glue"? Can you direct me to a source that illustrates
> Thanks.This is the main Bolger/Payson technique as described in Payson's
>
> Ciao for Niao,
> Bill in MN
>
Building the New Instant Boat (and presumably the Instant Boats book
also) which are T&T not S&G. Main differences are that the boats
were designed for poly construction. Panels are set up with a bunch
of permanent frames, and nailed together, not all panels are defined,
and those not defined are spiled from the partialy framed boat by
each builder.
Typicaly S&G boats are stiched together, frames are not necesary for
hull set-up, though they may facilitate it. Epoxy and tape are used
to hold the boat together. All panel contours are predefined.
Basicaly T&T are built inside out (frames first), and S&G are built
outside in.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi, Dynamite Payson's book " How to Build the Bobcat" illustrates tack
and tape. Mine was not built that way instead it was "dry wall screw"
and tape. Actually I had to do a little "stitch and glue" also. I
suppose Dynamite Payson has built enough of these things that he
doesn't have trouble but to me hammering on a flimsy construct such as
the beginning of "Bobcat" are a recipe for trouble if not disaster.
since "Bobcat" doesn't have stringers some stitching is necessary to
hold the panels in position. Screwing (or nailing) to frames just
doesn't do it completely.
Bob Chamberland
and tape. Mine was not built that way instead it was "dry wall screw"
and tape. Actually I had to do a little "stitch and glue" also. I
suppose Dynamite Payson has built enough of these things that he
doesn't have trouble but to me hammering on a flimsy construct such as
the beginning of "Bobcat" are a recipe for trouble if not disaster.
since "Bobcat" doesn't have stringers some stitching is necessary to
hold the panels in position. Screwing (or nailing) to frames just
doesn't do it completely.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., wmrpage@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/11/02 4:13:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
> proaconstrictor@y... writes:
>
>
> > We all understand that there are a bunch of bulkheads in a T&T boat
>
> Oh my! One of us lacks full understanding. I am actually not
familiar with
> the term "tack-and-tape". How does "tack-and-tape" differ from
> "stich-and-glue"? Can you direct me to a source that illustrates the
former?
> Thanks.
>
> Ciao for Niao,
> Bill in MN
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 9/11/02 4:13:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
proaconstrictor@...writes:
the term "tack-and-tape". How does "tack-and-tape" differ from
"stich-and-glue"? Can you direct me to a source that illustrates the former?
Thanks.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
proaconstrictor@...writes:
> We all understand that there are a bunch of bulkheads in a T&T boatOh my! One of us lacks full understanding. I am actually not familiar with
the term "tack-and-tape". How does "tack-and-tape" differ from
"stich-and-glue"? Can you direct me to a source that illustrates the former?
Thanks.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Tack and tape boats have been made successfully with polyesterresin.
> Maybe if you baby them and keep them under cover they'll be ok.I've
> already done enough repairs on polyester to suit me at this point,One of the main issues with Tack and Tape are the extra bulkheads.
> tho.
We all understand that there are a bunch of bulkheads in a T&T boat
in oreder to hold stuff to shape until the bilge planks can be spiled
and added. This makes sense in concert with poly, because poly needs
all the nails etc.. to maintain its shape. On the upside, the
planking stock can be thinner. With a stitch and glue boat you pump
up the panels a little, and cut them out straight from the plans.
The structural fillets hold it all together. Epoxy is the obvious
choice.
On large boats that use lots of space defining bulkeheads and cabin
soles, lots of nails and strigers, poly has worked over the long
term. But epoxy is the clear choice. Idealy you want to optimize
both the glue and the method, and I don't see as much evidence of
that with Bolger boats as with Devlin or Brown, etc...
Everything below and brittle too. Too much flex and it will crack or
separated from the wood... NOT waterproof. Water will penetrate it
and it must be painted or varnished to prevent water penetration.
Still, if you only want to whip something together for a season or
two, the price and availability beat epoxy. Payson builds em out of
Polyester, and they seem to last.
Steve.
separated from the wood... NOT waterproof. Water will penetrate it
and it must be painted or varnished to prevent water penetration.
Still, if you only want to whip something together for a season or
two, the price and availability beat epoxy. Payson builds em out of
Polyester, and they seem to last.
Steve.
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> No. Polyester resin and epoxy are two different animals with
entirely
> different properties. Polyester resin only needs a tiny bit of
> catalyst (dangerous stuff for your eyes), sets faster, reeks
horribly,
> has less elongation at failure than epoxy, is cheaper, and works
with
> the typical fiberglass mat that you might encounter. Most all-glass
> boats use polyester because it is cheaper and sets faster. There
are
> various flavors of polyester resin with various properties. Some
have
> wax to seal out oxygen so they cure all the way to the surface,
others
> stay a bit sticky until sealed in. The wax can interfere with the
next
> layer of glass, paint, etc. unless thoroughly cleaned off.
>
> As far as I know, West and System 3 only offer epoxy. Epoxy seems
to
> work much better with wood, and epoxy tends to be structurally
> superior, as I recall.
>
> Tack and tape boats have been made successfully with polyester
resin.
> Maybe if you baby them and keep them under cover they'll be ok.
I've
> already done enough repairs on polyester to suit me at this point,
> tho.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Is West System and systems 3 Polyester?
> > CCG
> > Lincoln Ross
> > wrote:In my experience, and that of many others, polyester resin
and
> glass
> > doesn't stick very well to wood, especially after it's been in
the
> > weather a while.
> > --- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
> > snip
> > > What is the polyester problem?
> > I wrote:
> > > CCGI wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem?snip
> > thread re methyl resorcinol or something that sounds like that as
a
> > primer for epoxy to wood.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
<snip>
> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester,
> MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! - We Remember
> > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No. Polyester resin and epoxy are two different animals with entirely
different properties. Polyester resin only needs a tiny bit of
catalyst (dangerous stuff for your eyes), sets faster, reeks horribly,
has less elongation at failure than epoxy, is cheaper, and works with
the typical fiberglass mat that you might encounter. Most all-glass
boats use polyester because it is cheaper and sets faster. There are
various flavors of polyester resin with various properties. Some have
wax to seal out oxygen so they cure all the way to the surface, others
stay a bit sticky until sealed in. The wax can interfere with the next
layer of glass, paint, etc. unless thoroughly cleaned off.
As far as I know, West and System 3 only offer epoxy. Epoxy seems to
work much better with wood, and epoxy tends to be structurally
superior, as I recall.
Tack and tape boats have been made successfully with polyester resin.
Maybe if you baby them and keep them under cover they'll be ok. I've
already done enough repairs on polyester to suit me at this point,
tho.
different properties. Polyester resin only needs a tiny bit of
catalyst (dangerous stuff for your eyes), sets faster, reeks horribly,
has less elongation at failure than epoxy, is cheaper, and works with
the typical fiberglass mat that you might encounter. Most all-glass
boats use polyester because it is cheaper and sets faster. There are
various flavors of polyester resin with various properties. Some have
wax to seal out oxygen so they cure all the way to the surface, others
stay a bit sticky until sealed in. The wax can interfere with the next
layer of glass, paint, etc. unless thoroughly cleaned off.
As far as I know, West and System 3 only offer epoxy. Epoxy seems to
work much better with wood, and epoxy tends to be structurally
superior, as I recall.
Tack and tape boats have been made successfully with polyester resin.
Maybe if you baby them and keep them under cover they'll be ok. I've
already done enough repairs on polyester to suit me at this point,
tho.
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
>
> Is West System and systems 3 Polyester?
> CCG
> Lincoln Ross
> wrote:In my experience, and that of many others, polyester resin and
glass
> doesn't stick very well to wood, especially after it's been in the
> weather a while.
> --- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
> snip
> > What is the polyester problem?
> I wrote:
> > CCGI wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem?snip
> thread re methyl resorcinol or something that sounds like that as a
> primer for epoxy to wood.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>
away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@y...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! - We Remember
> 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is West System and systems 3 Polyester?
CCG
Lincoln Ross
wrote:In my experience, and that of many others, polyester resin and glass
doesn't stick very well to wood, especially after it's been in the
weather a while.
CCG
Lincoln Ross
wrote:In my experience, and that of many others, polyester resin and glass
doesn't stick very well to wood, especially after it's been in the
weather a while.
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
snip
> What is the polyester problem?
I wrote:
> CCGI wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem?snip
thread re methyl resorcinol or something that sounds like that as a
primer for epoxy to wood.
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In my experience, and that of many others, polyester resin and glass
doesn't stick very well to wood, especially after it's been in the
weather a while.
doesn't stick very well to wood, especially after it's been in the
weather a while.
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
snip
> What is the polyester problem?
I wrote:
> CCGI wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem?snip
thread re methyl resorcinol or something that sounds like that as a
primer for epoxy to wood.
How old is the boat ? Was it left in the water durings the summers?
I am trying to get a feel of how long it took to rot.
Thanks
CCG
dnjost wrote: Richard,
This is the bane of plywood boats. I just finished a major
transom repair on my diablo. I had to remove the stern seats, stern
knee, transom board, and then I removed 6 large pockets of rot from
the first few layers of ply.
I next dried out the ply and then saturated the entire stern
compartment with thinned out epoxy (laquer thinner works well, not
too much). Next, I filled with 407 mixed with cabosil. Followed by
a layer of 6 oz glass set in resin.
I replaced the transom board with doubled up marine ply rather
than the 2X6 called for. I will also use mahogany framing for the
seats this time as well. Seats will be screwed and glued to the
transom providing enough support for the 10hp Johnson. I hated that
stern knee anyway. I don't think it is essential if the seat framing
is beefy enough.
We hope to catch some stripers Sunday afternoon in her if the
weather holds!
Happy building
David Jost
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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---------------------------------
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9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am trying to get a feel of how long it took to rot.
Thanks
CCG
dnjost wrote: Richard,
This is the bane of plywood boats. I just finished a major
transom repair on my diablo. I had to remove the stern seats, stern
knee, transom board, and then I removed 6 large pockets of rot from
the first few layers of ply.
I next dried out the ply and then saturated the entire stern
compartment with thinned out epoxy (laquer thinner works well, not
too much). Next, I filled with 407 mixed with cabosil. Followed by
a layer of 6 oz glass set in resin.
I replaced the transom board with doubled up marine ply rather
than the 2X6 called for. I will also use mahogany framing for the
seats this time as well. Seats will be screwed and glued to the
transom providing enough support for the 10hp Johnson. I hated that
stern knee anyway. I don't think it is essential if the seat framing
is beefy enough.
We hope to catch some stripers Sunday afternoon in her if the
weather holds!
Happy building
David Jost
>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> Anybody else run into delamination in soaked wood?
>
> Any thoughts on preventing it in the future?
>
> I wonder if Epoxyproducts' "Bio Seal 192", which is supposed to set
> underwater, would have prevented this?
>
> Thoughts? Anyone?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Richard,
This is the bane of plywood boats. I just finished a major
transom repair on my diablo. I had to remove the stern seats, stern
knee, transom board, and then I removed 6 large pockets of rot from
the first few layers of ply.
I next dried out the ply and then saturated the entire stern
compartment with thinned out epoxy (laquer thinner works well, not
too much). Next, I filled with 407 mixed with cabosil. Followed by
a layer of 6 oz glass set in resin.
I replaced the transom board with doubled up marine ply rather
than the 2X6 called for. I will also use mahogany framing for the
seats this time as well. Seats will be screwed and glued to the
transom providing enough support for the 10hp Johnson. I hated that
stern knee anyway. I don't think it is essential if the seat framing
is beefy enough.
We hope to catch some stripers Sunday afternoon in her if the
weather holds!
Happy building
David Jost
This is the bane of plywood boats. I just finished a major
transom repair on my diablo. I had to remove the stern seats, stern
knee, transom board, and then I removed 6 large pockets of rot from
the first few layers of ply.
I next dried out the ply and then saturated the entire stern
compartment with thinned out epoxy (laquer thinner works well, not
too much). Next, I filled with 407 mixed with cabosil. Followed by
a layer of 6 oz glass set in resin.
I replaced the transom board with doubled up marine ply rather
than the 2X6 called for. I will also use mahogany framing for the
seats this time as well. Seats will be screwed and glued to the
transom providing enough support for the 10hp Johnson. I hated that
stern knee anyway. I don't think it is essential if the seat framing
is beefy enough.
We hope to catch some stripers Sunday afternoon in her if the
weather holds!
Happy building
David Jost
>
> Anybody else run into delamination in soaked wood?
>
> Any thoughts on preventing it in the future?
>
> I wonder if Epoxyproducts' "Bio Seal 192", which is supposed to set
> underwater, would have prevented this?
>
> Thoughts? Anyone?
Lincoln Ross
wrote:
What is the polyester problem?
CCGI wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem? Those of us
with workshops out of smelling range of others could build without
thinking so much about cure time or with somewhat smaller budget! (I
note that no source of the primer is given.)
snip
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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---------------------------------
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
What is the polyester problem?
CCGI wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem? Those of us
with workshops out of smelling range of others could build without
thinking so much about cure time or with somewhat smaller budget! (I
note that no source of the primer is given.)
snip
>snip
> | --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> | > Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy joints
> | with this
> | > stuff?
> | >
> | >http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
> |
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ya, where would you get it? Maybe we could convince Raka to stock it?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 7:04 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: flooding and delamination
> I wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem? Those of us
> with workshops out of smelling range of others could build without
> thinking so much about cure time or with somewhat smaller budget! (I
> note that no source of the primer is given.)
> snip
> >
> > | --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> > | > Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy joints
> > | with this
> > | > stuff?
> > | >
> > | >http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
> > |
> snip
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Does anyone know a commercial name for the primer stuff?
Thanks
Thanks
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> I wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem? Those of
us
> with workshops out of smelling range of others could build without
> thinking so much about cure time or with somewhat smaller budget!
(I
> note that no source of the primer is given.)
> snip
> >
> > | --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> > | > Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy
joints
> > | with this
> > | > stuff?
> > | >
> > | >http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
> > |
> snip
I wonder if this stuff would solve the polyester problem? Those of us
with workshops out of smelling range of others could build without
thinking so much about cure time or with somewhat smaller budget! (I
note that no source of the primer is given.)
snip
with workshops out of smelling range of others could build without
thinking so much about cure time or with somewhat smaller budget! (I
note that no source of the primer is given.)
snip
>snip
> | --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> | > Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy joints
> | with this
> | > stuff?
> | >
> | >http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
> |
No, there is a box around the rudder post, not a tube:
http://www.chebacco.com/articles/chebacco5.1/4DSC00008.jpg
It leaked where the bottom of the box meets the hull, right next to the
rudder post.
The water worked it's way under the box in the picture and flooded the
comparment, even though all the seems were taped.
I didn't do the "saturation method, though the area was pretty much covered
with epoxy.
The glass delaminated in the lowest section, near the bulkhead at the back
of the cockpit.
On closer examinattion, trying to pull the tape up after it dried out, only
a small section about 4 inches long delaminated. The rest of the tape is
holding pretty good. I don't think I need to replace everything, though I
may cut the delaminated tape away and fillet the corner with epoxy, milled
fiber, and cabosil.
http://www.chebacco.com/articles/chebacco5.1/4DSC00008.jpg
It leaked where the bottom of the box meets the hull, right next to the
rudder post.
The water worked it's way under the box in the picture and flooded the
comparment, even though all the seems were taped.
I didn't do the "saturation method, though the area was pretty much covered
with epoxy.
The glass delaminated in the lowest section, near the bulkhead at the back
of the cockpit.
On closer examinattion, trying to pull the tape up after it dried out, only
a small section about 4 inches long delaminated. The rest of the tape is
holding pretty good. I don't think I need to replace everything, though I
may cut the delaminated tape away and fillet the corner with epoxy, milled
fiber, and cabosil.
----- Original Message -----
From: "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:19 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: flooding and delamination
| --- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
| > Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy joints
| with this
| > stuff?
| >
| >http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
|
| Sounds like something went wrong in your case, was this a particular
| severe period of exposure? Good boatbuilding epoxy doesn't just fly
| off wood. Were you using a saturation system (no pieces larger that
| 3/4" unless laminate, glass on all exterior surfaces, all other
| surfaces coated? Or was this a wet boat with epoxy joints (should
| still hold).
|
| Is the tube that holds your rudder bar a metal tube? If so, are
| going to get dissimilar rates of expansion. On my boat the underhung
| rudder tube is made of biaxial wrapped around the rudder, and then
| separated and installed into the hull cartridge, which kicks up. One
| thing about the Bolger five panel plywood boat is that you may not
| have much beef down there if you have a rudder mounted directly into
| the bottom (so probably it isn't done that way). On a veed keel, you
| can have a controlling amount of epoxy and glass in the area.
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
severe period of exposure? Good boatbuilding epoxy doesn't just fly
off wood. Were you using a saturation system (no pieces larger that
3/4" unless laminate, glass on all exterior surfaces, all other
surfaces coated? Or was this a wet boat with epoxy joints (should
still hold).
Is the tube that holds your rudder bar a metal tube? If so, are
going to get dissimilar rates of expansion. On my boat the underhung
rudder tube is made of biaxial wrapped around the rudder, and then
separated and installed into the hull cartridge, which kicks up. One
thing about the Bolger five panel plywood boat is that you may not
have much beef down there if you have a rudder mounted directly into
the bottom (so probably it isn't done that way). On a veed keel, you
can have a controlling amount of epoxy and glass in the area.
> Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy jointswith this
> stuff?Sounds like something went wrong in your case, was this a particular
>
>http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
severe period of exposure? Good boatbuilding epoxy doesn't just fly
off wood. Were you using a saturation system (no pieces larger that
3/4" unless laminate, glass on all exterior surfaces, all other
surfaces coated? Or was this a wet boat with epoxy joints (should
still hold).
Is the tube that holds your rudder bar a metal tube? If so, are
going to get dissimilar rates of expansion. On my boat the underhung
rudder tube is made of biaxial wrapped around the rudder, and then
separated and installed into the hull cartridge, which kicks up. One
thing about the Bolger five panel plywood boat is that you may not
have much beef down there if you have a rudder mounted directly into
the bottom (so probably it isn't done that way). On a veed keel, you
can have a controlling amount of epoxy and glass in the area.
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
given time. Though the issue seems always to be looks with the strip
guys.
> Interesting epoxy tests:I have a boat that will display about that much information at any
>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxyhtm/epox12m.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:47 PM
> Subject: [bolger] flooding and delamination
>
>
>
given time. Though the issue seems always to be looks with the strip
guys.
Another interesting link. Should we be priming our epoxy joints with this
stuff?
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
stuff?
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/PDF1997/vick97c.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Spelling" <richard@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] flooding and delamination
> Interesting epoxy tests:
>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxyhtm/epox12m.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Spelling" <richard@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:47 PM
> Subject: [bolger] flooding and delamination
>
>
> > Apparently when I installed the box around the rudder post ont he
Chebacco
> I
> > didn't put enough epoxy down first. I opened up the inspection hatches
> after
> > noticing dripping 1 hour after pulling the boat out of the water. The
aft
> > compartment under the motor well was completely full of water.
> >
> > Trailer is up on car ramps and the rudder is pulled off. Luckily, 1-1/2"
> PVC
> > is almost exactly the same size as my sched 10 SS pipe. (about 5 thou
> > smaller) Put PVC in the rudder post hole, sealing the bottom with
> electrical
> > tape, and filled the hole with strait epoxy. Blowing the first batch in
> with
> > high pressure air to make it fill the cracks.
> >
> > After pulling the pipe out (note to self, wax PVC before applying
epoxy),
> > used a milling bit in a drill and chewed away some of the wood and epoxy
> on
> > the bottom where the leak was. Filled that with milled fiber, cabosil,
and
> > epoxy.
> >
> > With luck, that will seal it.
> >
> > Now, my main consern. Inside the flooded compartment, the tape that I so
> > laboreously applied to every joint, has delaminated and pulled away from
> the
> > wood. These are not majorly important stuctural joints, though I'll
> probably
> > retape them anyway.
> >
> > Anybody else run into delamination in soaked wood?
> >
> > Any thoughts on preventing it in the future?
> >
> > I wonder if Epoxyproducts' "Bio Seal 192", which is supposed to set
> > underwater, would have prevented this?
> >
> > Thoughts? Anyone?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Richard,
Sorry to hear of your grief! The best I can think of is;
a) Gain access to areas in question through inspection ports or
hatches.
b)remove ALL fiberglass tape/cloth in effected area.
c) let dry thoroughly...may take several days or weeks.
d) once satisfied that all is bone dry(like when built?) proceed with
epoxy sealing of all wood surfaces before applying fiberglass tape
e) epoxy tape areas in question and be more generous with the
chemicals this time :-)
Failing some other unforseen"problems" this ought to bring things
back into shipshapedness(?) and your fix with the rudder post/sleave
should stop this from occuring next season.
Sincerely,
Peter,trying to be helpful since you asked but no real experience
with this sort of problem myself,from the shores of the
St.Lawrence........
Sorry to hear of your grief! The best I can think of is;
a) Gain access to areas in question through inspection ports or
hatches.
b)remove ALL fiberglass tape/cloth in effected area.
c) let dry thoroughly...may take several days or weeks.
d) once satisfied that all is bone dry(like when built?) proceed with
epoxy sealing of all wood surfaces before applying fiberglass tape
e) epoxy tape areas in question and be more generous with the
chemicals this time :-)
Failing some other unforseen"problems" this ought to bring things
back into shipshapedness(?) and your fix with the rudder post/sleave
should stop this from occuring next season.
Sincerely,
Peter,trying to be helpful since you asked but no real experience
with this sort of problem myself,from the shores of the
St.Lawrence........
--- In bolger@y..., "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
>
> Any thoughts on preventing it in the future?
>
> I wonder if Epoxyproducts' "Bio Seal 192", which is supposed to set
> underwater, would have prevented this?
>
> Thoughts? Anyone?
Interesting epoxy tests:
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxyhtm/epox12m.htm
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxyhtm/epox12m.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Spelling" <richard@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:47 PM
Subject: [bolger] flooding and delamination
> Apparently when I installed the box around the rudder post ont he Chebacco
I
> didn't put enough epoxy down first. I opened up the inspection hatches
after
> noticing dripping 1 hour after pulling the boat out of the water. The aft
> compartment under the motor well was completely full of water.
>
> Trailer is up on car ramps and the rudder is pulled off. Luckily, 1-1/2"
PVC
> is almost exactly the same size as my sched 10 SS pipe. (about 5 thou
> smaller) Put PVC in the rudder post hole, sealing the bottom with
electrical
> tape, and filled the hole with strait epoxy. Blowing the first batch in
with
> high pressure air to make it fill the cracks.
>
> After pulling the pipe out (note to self, wax PVC before applying epoxy),
> used a milling bit in a drill and chewed away some of the wood and epoxy
on
> the bottom where the leak was. Filled that with milled fiber, cabosil, and
> epoxy.
>
> With luck, that will seal it.
>
> Now, my main consern. Inside the flooded compartment, the tape that I so
> laboreously applied to every joint, has delaminated and pulled away from
the
> wood. These are not majorly important stuctural joints, though I'll
probably
> retape them anyway.
>
> Anybody else run into delamination in soaked wood?
>
> Any thoughts on preventing it in the future?
>
> I wonder if Epoxyproducts' "Bio Seal 192", which is supposed to set
> underwater, would have prevented this?
>
> Thoughts? Anyone?
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Apparently when I installed the box around the rudder post ont he Chebacco I
didn't put enough epoxy down first. I opened up the inspection hatches after
noticing dripping 1 hour after pulling the boat out of the water. The aft
compartment under the motor well was completely full of water.
Trailer is up on car ramps and the rudder is pulled off. Luckily, 1-1/2" PVC
is almost exactly the same size as my sched 10 SS pipe. (about 5 thou
smaller) Put PVC in the rudder post hole, sealing the bottom with electrical
tape, and filled the hole with strait epoxy. Blowing the first batch in with
high pressure air to make it fill the cracks.
After pulling the pipe out (note to self, wax PVC before applying epoxy),
used a milling bit in a drill and chewed away some of the wood and epoxy on
the bottom where the leak was. Filled that with milled fiber, cabosil, and
epoxy.
With luck, that will seal it.
Now, my main consern. Inside the flooded compartment, the tape that I so
laboreously applied to every joint, has delaminated and pulled away from the
wood. These are not majorly important stuctural joints, though I'll probably
retape them anyway.
Anybody else run into delamination in soaked wood?
Any thoughts on preventing it in the future?
I wonder if Epoxyproducts' "Bio Seal 192", which is supposed to set
underwater, would have prevented this?
Thoughts? Anyone?
didn't put enough epoxy down first. I opened up the inspection hatches after
noticing dripping 1 hour after pulling the boat out of the water. The aft
compartment under the motor well was completely full of water.
Trailer is up on car ramps and the rudder is pulled off. Luckily, 1-1/2" PVC
is almost exactly the same size as my sched 10 SS pipe. (about 5 thou
smaller) Put PVC in the rudder post hole, sealing the bottom with electrical
tape, and filled the hole with strait epoxy. Blowing the first batch in with
high pressure air to make it fill the cracks.
After pulling the pipe out (note to self, wax PVC before applying epoxy),
used a milling bit in a drill and chewed away some of the wood and epoxy on
the bottom where the leak was. Filled that with milled fiber, cabosil, and
epoxy.
With luck, that will seal it.
Now, my main consern. Inside the flooded compartment, the tape that I so
laboreously applied to every joint, has delaminated and pulled away from the
wood. These are not majorly important stuctural joints, though I'll probably
retape them anyway.
Anybody else run into delamination in soaked wood?
Any thoughts on preventing it in the future?
I wonder if Epoxyproducts' "Bio Seal 192", which is supposed to set
underwater, would have prevented this?
Thoughts? Anyone?