Re: ply-foam composite
> use an epoxy glue from FGCI that sells for about $38.00 a gallonI would use epoxy, but a cheapper epoxy is an alternative, because
> which is cheaper than System 3 and easier as there is no mixing in
> thixotropic additives. That may be an alternative except FGCI is in
> Florida and I'm in Alaska and there may be a temperature issue.
>
> fritz koschmann
>
whatever the difference in shear strength, it probably finds the blue
board as the weak link. I used blue board in a daggerboard, and with
sufficiently difuse loads it works for a while. Presumably there are
other structural beams in the sandwich?
I live where it is cold, but haven't any below 50 deg experience
except with S3 fast.
I used a lot of clark craft epoxy, which isn't the equal of WEST or
S3, but OK for low load, or neutral axis laminates. If you vacuum
bag this stuff, you don't need any fillers, just clearcoat both
surfaces, and bag it. If I had stringers in the sandwich, I would
mill then a few thou smaller than the foam, and when baggin the
second surface, I would mayo the stringers, just to be sure of a good
bond, that way you don't have to worry about either surface holding
the ply above the lam. This would all be shop vac bagging as
described elsewhere here. Over on the multi group, you could track
down the KHSD manual, or on their site, and study up on it there.
Any small vac is fine.
Save your money by using 1/4" ply. Or maybe 3/8" on the side that will
be walked on and 1/4" on the other, or maybe even less. If 1" of
plywood is actually structurally adequate, and the foam is adequate,
you will find that relatively thin ply on 2" foam is much stronger,
with the only real design condition being spike heels or something.
Probably best to use thin, dense ply. 2" foam may be overkill, also!
If you are using polystyrene insulation foam, consider Plazamate or
Highload 60 which are apparently capable of much higher local loads.
(60psi or so). The cost is not much, if any, more than the other
stuff. Raka is cheaper than System 3 but also has a fast hardener
which works in some pretty cool temps. I've used a gallon or so and
find it to be good stuff. They also have a hi temp version you can use
on the roof in case you ever come south. How much does resorcinol cost
and will it work in this application?
Remember that with styrene foam it probably wouldn't weaken anything
if you used some microballoons to stretch the epoxy.
You're still vulnerable to solvents unless you switch to urethane
foam.
be walked on and 1/4" on the other, or maybe even less. If 1" of
plywood is actually structurally adequate, and the foam is adequate,
you will find that relatively thin ply on 2" foam is much stronger,
with the only real design condition being spike heels or something.
Probably best to use thin, dense ply. 2" foam may be overkill, also!
If you are using polystyrene insulation foam, consider Plazamate or
Highload 60 which are apparently capable of much higher local loads.
(60psi or so). The cost is not much, if any, more than the other
stuff. Raka is cheaper than System 3 but also has a fast hardener
which works in some pretty cool temps. I've used a gallon or so and
find it to be good stuff. They also have a hi temp version you can use
on the roof in case you ever come south. How much does resorcinol cost
and will it work in this application?
Remember that with styrene foam it probably wouldn't weaken anything
if you used some microballoons to stretch the epoxy.
You're still vulnerable to solvents unless you switch to urethane
foam.
--- In bolger@y..., "fritzdfk" <gaffcat@h...> wrote:
> The foam is being used for thermal insulation in the floor and the
> roof, though it does add considerable strength and rigidity. I am
> using regular polystyrene foam from a lumber yard. The composite is
> 1/2" ply-2"foam-1/2" ply. The ply by itself would be strong enough
> structurely. I have already done the roofs of the hulls this way
> with epoxy as glue and it seems you could drive a tank over them
> with minimal damage. The floor and roof of the enclosed bridgedeck
> area are 144sq' each so thats 576 sq' of glueing surface, a lot of
> glue. Epoxy, SYS 3 in my case, probably is the best glue to use but
> I'm about to do it and thought there might be a cheaper alternative
> to epoxy. I got a suggestion on another forum from Glenn Ashmore to
> use an epoxy glue from FGCI that sells for about $38.00 a gallon
> which is cheaper than System 3 and easier as there is no mixing in
> thixotropic additives. That may be an alternative except FGCI is in
> Florida and I'm in Alaska and there may be a temperature issue.
>
> fritz koschmann
>
>
>
>
> >
> > That's my point, well actualy over on the multihull board where
> this
> > question was also posted. What is being done here? Ranging from
> > attaching floatation to creating a structural floor system for 15
> > people to spill beer on. What is the foam being used for? What
> kind
> > is it? Only then can we even guess at what glue would be best.
The foam is being used for thermal insulation in the floor and the
roof, though it does add considerable strength and rigidity. I am
using regular polystyrene foam from a lumber yard. The composite is
1/2" ply-2"foam-1/2" ply. The ply by itself would be strong enough
structurely. I have already done the roofs of the hulls this way
with epoxy as glue and it seems you could drive a tank over them
with minimal damage. The floor and roof of the enclosed bridgedeck
area are 144sq' each so thats 576 sq' of glueing surface, a lot of
glue. Epoxy, SYS 3 in my case, probably is the best glue to use but
I'm about to do it and thought there might be a cheaper alternative
to epoxy. I got a suggestion on another forum from Glenn Ashmore to
use an epoxy glue from FGCI that sells for about $38.00 a gallon
which is cheaper than System 3 and easier as there is no mixing in
thixotropic additives. That may be an alternative except FGCI is in
Florida and I'm in Alaska and there may be a temperature issue.
fritz koschmann
roof, though it does add considerable strength and rigidity. I am
using regular polystyrene foam from a lumber yard. The composite is
1/2" ply-2"foam-1/2" ply. The ply by itself would be strong enough
structurely. I have already done the roofs of the hulls this way
with epoxy as glue and it seems you could drive a tank over them
with minimal damage. The floor and roof of the enclosed bridgedeck
area are 144sq' each so thats 576 sq' of glueing surface, a lot of
glue. Epoxy, SYS 3 in my case, probably is the best glue to use but
I'm about to do it and thought there might be a cheaper alternative
to epoxy. I got a suggestion on another forum from Glenn Ashmore to
use an epoxy glue from FGCI that sells for about $38.00 a gallon
which is cheaper than System 3 and easier as there is no mixing in
thixotropic additives. That may be an alternative except FGCI is in
Florida and I'm in Alaska and there may be a temperature issue.
fritz koschmann
>this
> That's my point, well actualy over on the multihull board where
> question was also posted. What is being done here? Ranging fromkind
> attaching floatation to creating a structural floor system for 15
> people to spill beer on. What is the foam being used for? What
> is it? Only then can we even guess at what glue would be best.
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
question was also posted. What is being done here? Ranging from
attaching floatation to creating a structural floor system for 15
people to spill beer on. What is the foam being used for? What kind
is it? Only then can we even guess at what glue would be best.
> I recently had the opportunity to hold a small bit of the foam coreit
> from my boat's deck in my hand. (Don't ask!) Believe me, it is
> nothing like your hardware store or boating store foams. I found
> quite difficult to dig out even a tiny fragment with my fingernail.That's my point, well actualy over on the multihull board where this
>
> I assume it is Divinycell, Klegecell, or the like. If anyone out
> there knows foams, he could probably identify it by its red/brown
> color. If I was going to use foam for a structual purpose, I would
> get the real thing.
>
> Peter
question was also posted. What is being done here? Ranging from
attaching floatation to creating a structural floor system for 15
people to spill beer on. What is the foam being used for? What kind
is it? Only then can we even guess at what glue would be best.
There are hard faoms that are indeed open cell and will sink like a rock when wet. By the way polyethylene foam can be desolved in lac. thiner and made into polyethylene varnish -- just dont use it on the diningroom table.
CCG
Lincoln Ross
wrote:Open cell is not Styrofoam, it's expanded bead styrene foam. And I
don't think it's really open cell, that would be more like the foam
you see in upholstery. Styrofoam is a trademark or something and
refers to extruded styrene foam of some brand or other. Any styrene
foam is going to have problems with solvents (like gasoline?), not
just beadfoam. If you want to stand up to solvents, use urethane, but
don't hotwire it as that is said to give off toxic fumes. Maybe
polyethylene foam would work too.
BTW, hotwire is a very nice way to cut foam as it doesn't make a mess.
Not fast, tho.
CCG
Lincoln Ross
wrote:Open cell is not Styrofoam, it's expanded bead styrene foam. And I
don't think it's really open cell, that would be more like the foam
you see in upholstery. Styrofoam is a trademark or something and
refers to extruded styrene foam of some brand or other. Any styrene
foam is going to have problems with solvents (like gasoline?), not
just beadfoam. If you want to stand up to solvents, use urethane, but
don't hotwire it as that is said to give off toxic fumes. Maybe
polyethylene foam would work too.
BTW, hotwire is a very nice way to cut foam as it doesn't make a mess.
Not fast, tho.
--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
> It's not just System 3, all epoxy works with closed cell styrofoam.
> West System glued up the layers of floatation in my Micro stern
> quarters into a sloid non-disolved block quite nicely.
>
> It's the open cell styrofoam (white, crumbly, the material of 2.99
> disposable coolers) that is disolved so easily. This stuff has no
> place in boats anyway. It absorbs water, gets very heavy, crumbles
> and breaks-leading to little bits flying about and looses its
> floatation ability far too quickly.
>
> Stick to the closed cell varieties, they're easier to cut and use
> anyway..
>
> Bruce Hector
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Can you give us exanples of brand names of closed cell foam that might be found in sheet form that can be used for floatation ?
CCG
Bruce Hector
wrote:It's not just System 3, all epoxy works with closed cell styrofoam.
West System glued up the layers of floatation in my Micro stern
quarters into a sloid non-disolved block quite nicely.
It's the open cell styrofoam (white, crumbly, the material of 2.99
disposable coolers) that is disolved so easily. This stuff has no
place in boats anyway. It absorbs water, gets very heavy, crumbles
and breaks-leading to little bits flying about and looses its
floatation ability far too quickly.
Stick to the closed cell varieties, they're easier to cut and use
anyway..
Bruce Hector
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CCG
Bruce Hector
wrote:It's not just System 3, all epoxy works with closed cell styrofoam.
West System glued up the layers of floatation in my Micro stern
quarters into a sloid non-disolved block quite nicely.
It's the open cell styrofoam (white, crumbly, the material of 2.99
disposable coolers) that is disolved so easily. This stuff has no
place in boats anyway. It absorbs water, gets very heavy, crumbles
and breaks-leading to little bits flying about and looses its
floatation ability far too quickly.
Stick to the closed cell varieties, they're easier to cut and use
anyway..
Bruce Hector
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I recently had the opportunity to hold a small bit of the foam core
from my boat's deck in my hand. (Don't ask!) Believe me, it is
nothing like your hardware store or boating store foams. I found it
quite difficult to dig out even a tiny fragment with my fingernail.
I assume it is Divinycell, Klegecell, or the like. If anyone out
there knows foams, he could probably identify it by its red/brown
color. If I was going to use foam for a structual purpose, I would
get the real thing.
Peter
from my boat's deck in my hand. (Don't ask!) Believe me, it is
nothing like your hardware store or boating store foams. I found it
quite difficult to dig out even a tiny fragment with my fingernail.
I assume it is Divinycell, Klegecell, or the like. If anyone out
there knows foams, he could probably identify it by its red/brown
color. If I was going to use foam for a structual purpose, I would
get the real thing.
Peter
Open cell is not Styrofoam, it's expanded bead styrene foam. And I
don't think it's really open cell, that would be more like the foam
you see in upholstery. Styrofoam is a trademark or something and
refers to extruded styrene foam of some brand or other. Any styrene
foam is going to have problems with solvents (like gasoline?), not
just beadfoam. If you want to stand up to solvents, use urethane, but
don't hotwire it as that is said to give off toxic fumes. Maybe
polyethylene foam would work too.
BTW, hotwire is a very nice way to cut foam as it doesn't make a mess.
Not fast, tho.
don't think it's really open cell, that would be more like the foam
you see in upholstery. Styrofoam is a trademark or something and
refers to extruded styrene foam of some brand or other. Any styrene
foam is going to have problems with solvents (like gasoline?), not
just beadfoam. If you want to stand up to solvents, use urethane, but
don't hotwire it as that is said to give off toxic fumes. Maybe
polyethylene foam would work too.
BTW, hotwire is a very nice way to cut foam as it doesn't make a mess.
Not fast, tho.
--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
> It's not just System 3, all epoxy works with closed cell styrofoam.
> West System glued up the layers of floatation in my Micro stern
> quarters into a sloid non-disolved block quite nicely.
>
> It's the open cell styrofoam (white, crumbly, the material of 2.99
> disposable coolers) that is disolved so easily. This stuff has no
> place in boats anyway. It absorbs water, gets very heavy, crumbles
> and breaks-leading to little bits flying about and looses its
> floatation ability far too quickly.
>
> Stick to the closed cell varieties, they're easier to cut and use
> anyway..
>
> Bruce Hector
I use a foam/ply/Formica composite on my boat. I bonded eighth inch door
skin material to 3/4" pink foam. Then applied white Formica to the door
skin. The main purpose for this panels was lining storage compartments,
giving some insulation, a rigid surface and an easily cleaned compartment.
The panels were laid up on a flat bench using WEST epoxy. They ended up very
stiff and strong. I cut them to shape using a router bit with a ball-bearing
follower on the tip, running against an aluminum angle screwed to the edge
of the bench. The panels have performed very well and were very easy to
construct.
Paul W. Esterle
Capt'n Pauley Video Productions
423.989.3159
S/V Bryn Awel, Columbia 10.7
Bristol, Tenn. USA
http://www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
http://pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
skin material to 3/4" pink foam. Then applied white Formica to the door
skin. The main purpose for this panels was lining storage compartments,
giving some insulation, a rigid surface and an easily cleaned compartment.
The panels were laid up on a flat bench using WEST epoxy. They ended up very
stiff and strong. I cut them to shape using a router bit with a ball-bearing
follower on the tip, running against an aluminum angle screwed to the edge
of the bench. The panels have performed very well and were very easy to
construct.
Paul W. Esterle
Capt'n Pauley Video Productions
423.989.3159
S/V Bryn Awel, Columbia 10.7
Bristol, Tenn. USA
http://www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
http://pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
----- Original Message -----
From: "fritzdfk" <gaffcat@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 4:04 PM
Subject: [bolger] ply-foam composite
> For the interior bridgedeck and roof on Double Eagle I am using a
> composite of ply-foam-ply. The adhesive will be epoxy unless there
> is an alternative. An alternative might be cheaper, easier (one
> part), or even better for some other reason. I'm just exploring
> alternatives. There are construction adhesives designed for bonding
> foam and there are things like Liquid Nails available in gallon
> cans. This would all be above the water line.
>
> fritz koschmann
>
>
>http://thegreatsea.homestead.com
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
It's not just System 3, all epoxy works with closed cell styrofoam.
West System glued up the layers of floatation in my Micro stern
quarters into a sloid non-disolved block quite nicely.
It's the open cell styrofoam (white, crumbly, the material of 2.99
disposable coolers) that is disolved so easily. This stuff has no
place in boats anyway. It absorbs water, gets very heavy, crumbles
and breaks-leading to little bits flying about and looses its
floatation ability far too quickly.
Stick to the closed cell varieties, they're easier to cut and use
anyway..
Bruce Hector
West System glued up the layers of floatation in my Micro stern
quarters into a sloid non-disolved block quite nicely.
It's the open cell styrofoam (white, crumbly, the material of 2.99
disposable coolers) that is disolved so easily. This stuff has no
place in boats anyway. It absorbs water, gets very heavy, crumbles
and breaks-leading to little bits flying about and looses its
floatation ability far too quickly.
Stick to the closed cell varieties, they're easier to cut and use
anyway..
Bruce Hector
I remember that Liquid Nails is not that good for wood on boats, but
maybe gluing to foam is another animal. Foam tends to be much weaker
than wood, so glue used with it doesn't have to be as strong. Some of
the model plane guys use thin urethane glue with foam (stuff like
Gorilla Glue or Elmer's Pro Bond Urethane, not sure how waterproof).
Also, you could probably use microballoons with epoxy, since you
wouldn't need the full strength.
If your foam has a "skin" on it that should reduce glue usage, if not,
you will have to use more.
If your panels are flat you might vacuum bag up a whole stack at once
per a recent proaconstrictor message, which ought to be much easier
than laminating them all in place.
maybe gluing to foam is another animal. Foam tends to be much weaker
than wood, so glue used with it doesn't have to be as strong. Some of
the model plane guys use thin urethane glue with foam (stuff like
Gorilla Glue or Elmer's Pro Bond Urethane, not sure how waterproof).
Also, you could probably use microballoons with epoxy, since you
wouldn't need the full strength.
If your foam has a "skin" on it that should reduce glue usage, if not,
you will have to use more.
If your panels are flat you might vacuum bag up a whole stack at once
per a recent proaconstrictor message, which ought to be much easier
than laminating them all in place.
--- In bolger@y..., "Mark A." <marka@h...> wrote:
> By nearly all reports you should stay away from Liquid Nails. PL
Premium is definitely the
> au currant cheap marine goop. Some are building stitch and tape with
it. Though strong, in
> $3-5 tubes it is not much alternative to epoxy in either price or
ease for a job that
> size.
>
> Prowl around here though. You may find it in cans or by the case
>http://www.osisealants.com/PL/PL_products/PL_construction.htm
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> fritzdfk wrote:
> >
> > For the interior bridgedeck and roof on Double Eagle I am using a
> > composite of ply-foam-ply. The adhesive will be epoxy unless there
> > is an alternative. An alternative might be cheaper, easier (one
> > part), or even better for some other reason. I'm just exploring
> > alternatives. There are construction adhesives designed for
bonding
> > foam and there are things like Liquid Nails available in gallon
> > cans. This would all be above the water line.
> >
> > fritz koschmann
> >
> >http://thegreatsea.homestead.com
I believe that System Three Epoxy adheres to styrofoam without
hurting it.
Mike
hurting it.
Mike
--- In bolger@y..., "fritzdfk" <gaffcat@h...> wrote:
> For the interior bridgedeck and roof on Double Eagle I am using a
> composite of ply-foam-ply. The adhesive will be epoxy unless there
> is an alternative. An alternative might be cheaper, easier (one
> part), or even better for some other reason. I'm just exploring
> alternatives. There are construction adhesives designed for bonding
> foam and there are things like Liquid Nails available in gallon
> cans. This would all be above the water line.
>
> fritz koschmann
>
>
>http://thegreatsea.homestead.com
By nearly all reports you should stay away from Liquid Nails. PL Premium is definitely the
au currant cheap marine goop. Some are building stitch and tape with it. Though strong, in
$3-5 tubes it is not much alternative to epoxy in either price or ease for a job that
size.
Prowl around here though. You may find it in cans or by the case
http://www.osisealants.com/PL/PL_products/PL_construction.htm
Mark
fritzdfk wrote:
au currant cheap marine goop. Some are building stitch and tape with it. Though strong, in
$3-5 tubes it is not much alternative to epoxy in either price or ease for a job that
size.
Prowl around here though. You may find it in cans or by the case
http://www.osisealants.com/PL/PL_products/PL_construction.htm
Mark
fritzdfk wrote:
>
> For the interior bridgedeck and roof on Double Eagle I am using a
> composite of ply-foam-ply. The adhesive will be epoxy unless there
> is an alternative. An alternative might be cheaper, easier (one
> part), or even better for some other reason. I'm just exploring
> alternatives. There are construction adhesives designed for bonding
> foam and there are things like Liquid Nails available in gallon
> cans. This would all be above the water line.
>
> fritz koschmann
>
>http://thegreatsea.homestead.com
For the interior bridgedeck and roof on Double Eagle I am using a
composite of ply-foam-ply. The adhesive will be epoxy unless there
is an alternative. An alternative might be cheaper, easier (one
part), or even better for some other reason. I'm just exploring
alternatives. There are construction adhesives designed for bonding
foam and there are things like Liquid Nails available in gallon
cans. This would all be above the water line.
fritz koschmann
http://thegreatsea.homestead.com
composite of ply-foam-ply. The adhesive will be epoxy unless there
is an alternative. An alternative might be cheaper, easier (one
part), or even better for some other reason. I'm just exploring
alternatives. There are construction adhesives designed for bonding
foam and there are things like Liquid Nails available in gallon
cans. This would all be above the water line.
fritz koschmann
http://thegreatsea.homestead.com