[bolger] Re: Plans for Storm Petrel?
I know the following is a long post, but it seems relevant to the
recent discussions of the Storm Petrel and of rigs. I quote below from
two messages I received from various Newlands (I've lost track, or
possibly just one) of Swallowboats.
"The dipping lug is a fantastic rig in many ways. Our designer is a big
fan of Phil Bolger! However, I have sailed her extensively with the
dipping lug and tacking is not the main problem in my experience.
Because the sail is so small (70 sq foot, as opposed to a few hundred sq
foot in the trad fishing boats) it can be dipped by unhooking the tack
and flicking the throat of the sail round the mast, then re hooking. It
does take longer than a normal rig, and is quicker with two, as the
other person can move the sheet block to the other side of the boat,
whilst the crew man is dipping.
In my experience the worst feature of the rig is that it is not very
stable when running in a blow. Bolger says it is docile....hmmm... maybe
it is when you have a few tonnes of lead in your keel, as his live-
aboard has. On a small dingy, the twist in the sail causes rythmic
rolling which nearly capsized me the other day! In addition to this, if
the sail is let out too far, the boat can capsize the "wrong" way, that
is too windward. obviously the sheets would be knotted to prevent this,
but it still feels out of control when running to my mind. Having said
this, It was approaching a force 7 and on a broad reach I am sure I had
her almost planing!, which for her double ended hull form is pretty much
impossible!
I thought about adding some form of loose footed boom from the mast to
the clew, but concluded it would get in the way a lot when dipping. I
have yet to do the experiments on this though, and if you are
interested, I will get back to you, hopefully with photos.
At the moment I am sailing her with a balanced lug rig, which is
superbly controllable, with an adjustable outhaul, and temporary full
width, variable thickness battens.
She performs well under this rig, and we have some photos at the
developers, which we will post on the website as soon as we have them
back.
The fully battened sail definitely improves the performance somewhat,
especially when sailing on the "wrong" tack. The battens help to hold
the shape over the mast. The tension in the foot of the sail (outhaul)
is fairly important, but we are also looking at some different ways of
easing the problem. Aerodynamics tells us that there must be a loss of
efficiency on the wrong tack, but to be honest, I have not noticed it
myself when sailing.
In light to moderate winds I can reliably tack the rig through 80
degrees, though the last 5 on either side tend to be a bit slower. In
stronger winds, the head of the sail gets blown too much to leeward
meaning that the boom has to be sheeted almost to the centreline in
order for the top of the sail to be working. This twist in high windsis
a problem, but we are experimenting with different cuts of sail to see
what can be done to address this problem.
Unfortunately, test conditions here on the West coast of Wales have been
far from perfect over the last month or so, and it has been difficult to
obtain much meaningful test information.
We have far from given up on the dipping lug rig, but do feel that it is
not giving it's full potential yet. In theory, it should perform
superbly, and this is what we are working towards!
recent discussions of the Storm Petrel and of rigs. I quote below from
two messages I received from various Newlands (I've lost track, or
possibly just one) of Swallowboats.
"The dipping lug is a fantastic rig in many ways. Our designer is a big
fan of Phil Bolger! However, I have sailed her extensively with the
dipping lug and tacking is not the main problem in my experience.
Because the sail is so small (70 sq foot, as opposed to a few hundred sq
foot in the trad fishing boats) it can be dipped by unhooking the tack
and flicking the throat of the sail round the mast, then re hooking. It
does take longer than a normal rig, and is quicker with two, as the
other person can move the sheet block to the other side of the boat,
whilst the crew man is dipping.
In my experience the worst feature of the rig is that it is not very
stable when running in a blow. Bolger says it is docile....hmmm... maybe
it is when you have a few tonnes of lead in your keel, as his live-
aboard has. On a small dingy, the twist in the sail causes rythmic
rolling which nearly capsized me the other day! In addition to this, if
the sail is let out too far, the boat can capsize the "wrong" way, that
is too windward. obviously the sheets would be knotted to prevent this,
but it still feels out of control when running to my mind. Having said
this, It was approaching a force 7 and on a broad reach I am sure I had
her almost planing!, which for her double ended hull form is pretty much
impossible!
I thought about adding some form of loose footed boom from the mast to
the clew, but concluded it would get in the way a lot when dipping. I
have yet to do the experiments on this though, and if you are
interested, I will get back to you, hopefully with photos.
At the moment I am sailing her with a balanced lug rig, which is
superbly controllable, with an adjustable outhaul, and temporary full
width, variable thickness battens.
She performs well under this rig, and we have some photos at the
developers, which we will post on the website as soon as we have them
back.
> >http://www.swallowboats.demon.co.uk/storm-petrel.htmWith reference to the lug rigs...
> > A double ender by a UK designer Nick Newland of Swallowboats.
> snip
The fully battened sail definitely improves the performance somewhat,
especially when sailing on the "wrong" tack. The battens help to hold
the shape over the mast. The tension in the foot of the sail (outhaul)
is fairly important, but we are also looking at some different ways of
easing the problem. Aerodynamics tells us that there must be a loss of
efficiency on the wrong tack, but to be honest, I have not noticed it
myself when sailing.
In light to moderate winds I can reliably tack the rig through 80
degrees, though the last 5 on either side tend to be a bit slower. In
stronger winds, the head of the sail gets blown too much to leeward
meaning that the boom has to be sheeted almost to the centreline in
order for the top of the sail to be working. This twist in high windsis
a problem, but we are experimenting with different cuts of sail to see
what can be done to address this problem.
Unfortunately, test conditions here on the West coast of Wales have been
far from perfect over the last month or so, and it has been difficult to
obtain much meaningful test information.
We have far from given up on the dipping lug rig, but do feel that it is
not giving it's full potential yet. In theory, it should perform
superbly, and this is what we are working towards!
>
If you mean the boat, not the bird, search for "storm petrel" to find
my (and others') earlier postings in the group, most recently #3304.
Here is the link again to Chuck Merrell's site for Phil's DIFFERENT
BOATS chapter on Storm Petrel in Adobe Acrobat .pdf format:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/merrellc1/Files/petrel.pdf
There are also a couple of pics in the vault of Marc Lander's
spritsail-sloop-rigged Storm Petrel in San Francisco, as well as my
sketch of a modified (cuddy top and "eye" deadlights) one.
Regards,
Matthew
david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3335
my (and others') earlier postings in the group, most recently #3304.
Here is the link again to Chuck Merrell's site for Phil's DIFFERENT
BOATS chapter on Storm Petrel in Adobe Acrobat .pdf format:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/merrellc1/Files/petrel.pdf
There are also a couple of pics in the vault of Marc Lander's
spritsail-sloop-rigged Storm Petrel in San Francisco, as well as my
sketch of a modified (cuddy top and "eye" deadlights) one.
Regards,
Matthew
david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3335
>
> FBBB --
>
> Thanks for the lesson. It makes me rather curious about the boat. Any
> online pictures/drawings?
FBBB --
Thanks for the lesson. It makes me rather curious about the boat. Any
online pictures/drawings?
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
Thanks for the lesson. It makes me rather curious about the boat. Any
online pictures/drawings?
>I did some research on this because Bolger's design appeals to me.David Ryan
>
>Storm petrels are a family of seabirds related to albatroses and the
>like. They spend almost their whole lives on the open ocean, and I
>think they were once considered to be harbingers of storms (hence the
>name). They exist in enormous, uncounted numbers spread over the
>oceans of the world. I read somewhere that the sparrow-sized Wilson's
>storm petrel may be the most numerous of all birds. They are also
>known for "running" across the surface of the water with wings
>outstretched.
>
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
I did some research on this because Bolger's design appeals to me.
Storm petrels are a family of seabirds related to albatroses and the
like. They spend almost their whole lives on the open ocean, and I
think they were once considered to be harbingers of storms (hence the
name). They exist in enormous, uncounted numbers spread over the
oceans of the world. I read somewhere that the sparrow-sized Wilson's
storm petrel may be the most numerous of all birds. They are also
known for "running" across the surface of the water with wings
outstretched.
Any of these things might account for the popularity of the name for
small ocean-going boats.
Here's a link to an Encyclopedia Brittanica article
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,71652,00.html
and a photo
http://museum.ednet.ns.ca/mnh/nature/nsbirds/bns0019.htm
Matthew "ready to start the Storm Petrel club" Long
david beede <juliej-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3327
Storm petrels are a family of seabirds related to albatroses and the
like. They spend almost their whole lives on the open ocean, and I
think they were once considered to be harbingers of storms (hence the
name). They exist in enormous, uncounted numbers spread over the
oceans of the world. I read somewhere that the sparrow-sized Wilson's
storm petrel may be the most numerous of all birds. They are also
known for "running" across the surface of the water with wings
outstretched.
Any of these things might account for the popularity of the name for
small ocean-going boats.
Here's a link to an Encyclopedia Brittanica article
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,71652,00.html
and a photo
http://museum.ednet.ns.ca/mnh/nature/nsbirds/bns0019.htm
Matthew "ready to start the Storm Petrel club" Long
david beede <juliej-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3327
> Curious about the name "Storm Petrel"?
> I ran across another design by that name on the web...
>http://www.swallowboats.demon.co.uk/storm-petrel.htm
> A double ender by a UK designer Nick Newland of Swallowboats.
> Seemed such an odd name to be duplicated so I thought there may be
> a referent here I'm not familiar with?
Curious about the name "Storm Petrel"?
I ran across another design by that name on the web...
http://www.swallowboats.demon.co.uk/storm-petrel.htm
A double ender by a UK designer Nick Newland of Swallowboats.
Seemed such an odd name to be duplicated so I thought there may be
a referent here I'm not familiar with?
david
Matthew Long wrote:
and counting) on the San Francisco Bay.
The owner is named Marc Lander, and he bought the boat from the second
owner, who bought the boat from the builder--Marc's own cousin!
I will email him privately and ask him to contact you.
Regards,
Matthew
"greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2374
SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rain forest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
I ran across another design by that name on the web...
http://www.swallowboats.demon.co.uk/storm-petrel.htm
A double ender by a UK designer Nick Newland of Swallowboats.
Seemed such an odd name to be duplicated so I thought there may be
a referent here I'm not familiar with?
david
Matthew Long wrote:
>doghouse and a spritsail sloop rig, and is currently sailing (15 years
> The only Storm Petrel I know of is modified with a more traditional
and counting) on the San Francisco Bay.
The owner is named Marc Lander, and he bought the boat from the second
owner, who bought the boat from the builder--Marc's own cousin!
I will email him privately and ask him to contact you.
Regards,
Matthew
"greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2374
> Thanks for the information. If the boat gets--
> built, which is likely since I'm almost finished
> with the current boatbuilding project, I'll
> let you know how it sails on San Francisco Bay.
>
> Greg Curtis
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rain forest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
The only Storm Petrel I know of is modified with a more traditional
doghouse and a spritsail sloop rig, and is currently sailing (15 years
and counting) on the San Francisco Bay.
The owner is named Marc Lander, and he bought the boat from the second
owner, who bought the boat from the builder--Marc's own cousin!
I will email him privately and ask him to contact you.
Regards,
Matthew
"greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2374
doghouse and a spritsail sloop rig, and is currently sailing (15 years
and counting) on the San Francisco Bay.
The owner is named Marc Lander, and he bought the boat from the second
owner, who bought the boat from the builder--Marc's own cousin!
I will email him privately and ask him to contact you.
Regards,
Matthew
"greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2374
> Thanks for the information. If the boat gets
> built, which is likely since I'm almost finished
> with the current boatbuilding project, I'll
> let you know how it sails on San Francisco Bay.
>
> Greg Curtis
>
Thanks for the information. If the boat gets
built, which is likely since I'm almost finished
with the current boatbuilding project, I'll
let you know how it sails on San Francisco Bay.
Greg Curtis
built, which is likely since I'm almost finished
with the current boatbuilding project, I'll
let you know how it sails on San Francisco Bay.
Greg Curtis
"peter vanderwaart" <pvander-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2349
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2349
>
> From MAIB, Dec,15,1999:
>
> Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc.
> Boat Designers,
> PO Box 1209
> Gloucester, MA 01930
>
> FAX: 978-282-1349
>
>
> I wonder if Mr. Bolger would suggest a Micro-type keel these days,
> rather than the flat steel plate.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> "greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2343
> > I am interested in buying a set of plans for
> > the Storm Petrel, which I think is Bolger design
> > number 337. I would contact Mr. Bolger directly,
> > but I don't know how. Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Greg Curtis
> >
> >
>
We took my son on my Cynthia J. catboat when he was 2 and 3. Standing the
seat, the rail was shoulder high. I rarely had much concern here on Long
Island Sound. He did have to learn about the pinching potential of the
leeboards though.
A Cynthia J. could be capsized if enough things went wrong, which would be
a big mess. It would hold a lot of water. I bought a block of foam with the
intention of putting some in the cabin, but I sold the boat before I
completed the job.
The rough water capability of a Cynthia J. depends on the number of people
aboard. I only sailed it single handed once, and I was surprised by how
much quicker it heeled. It was a lot of fun, though a little laborious in
setup and takedown to be a really good trailer boat.
Peter
At 01:46 PM 2/7/00 -0800, you wrote:
seat, the rail was shoulder high. I rarely had much concern here on Long
Island Sound. He did have to learn about the pinching potential of the
leeboards though.
A Cynthia J. could be capsized if enough things went wrong, which would be
a big mess. It would hold a lot of water. I bought a block of foam with the
intention of putting some in the cabin, but I sold the boat before I
completed the job.
The rough water capability of a Cynthia J. depends on the number of people
aboard. I only sailed it single handed once, and I was surprised by how
much quicker it heeled. It was a lot of fun, though a little laborious in
setup and takedown to be a really good trailer boat.
Peter
At 01:46 PM 2/7/00 -0800, you wrote:
>See Chuck Merrell's PRIVATE POSTINGS page (link in the vault) for
>Bolger's chapter on Storm Petrel in DIFFERENT BOATS.
>
>I doubt that PCB would recommend a Micro-type keel for Storm Petrel as
>the simplicity of the steel keel is part of the boat's "raison d'etre."
> Plus, when discussing the modest rig he highlighted the fact that it
>is not a hull shape that would reward a big rig or a sophisticated keel.
>
>I have Storm Petrel plans, as I have mentioned before in this group,
>and I still think it would make a great boat, within its limitations
>like any boat. I spoke to PCB and SA over the summer about some mods
>to the accommodations or the rig, but I think now I would go with the
>stock design if I built it. It could be a great all-around day
>motorsailer for a couple without much interest in cruising, but wanting
>substantial dry stowage for picnicing or camping gear. It does offer
>emergency accommodations in a pinch.
>
>With an infant son in the house now, though, I am a little leery of a
>boat that you are more on top of than in, hence my recent interest in
>catboat types. Storm Petrel would need some serious railings for peace
>of mind with the little guy. Plus the dream of cruising vs. the
>reality of family outings (it's a production just to go to the mall) is
>beginning to sink in.
>
>More on the catboat research coming up!
>
>Matthew Long
>http://www.gis.net/~owlnmole/Pages/brick.html
>
>"peter vanderwaart" <pvander-@...> wrote:
>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2349
> >
> > From MAIB, Dec,15,1999:
> >
> > Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc.
> > Boat Designers,
> > PO Box 1209
> > Gloucester, MA 01930
> >
> > FAX: 978-282-1349
> >
> >
> > I wonder if Mr. Bolger would suggest a Micro-type keel these days,
> > rather than the flat steel plate.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> > "greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
> > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2343
> > > I am interested in buying a set of plans for
> > > the Storm Petrel, which I think is Bolger design
> > > number 337. I would contact Mr. Bolger directly,
> > > but I don't know how. Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Greg Curtis
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1158/5/_/3457/_/949959988/
>
>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
>--http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
See Chuck Merrell's PRIVATE POSTINGS page (link in the vault) for
Bolger's chapter on Storm Petrel in DIFFERENT BOATS.
I doubt that PCB would recommend a Micro-type keel for Storm Petrel as
the simplicity of the steel keel is part of the boat's "raison d'etre."
Plus, when discussing the modest rig he highlighted the fact that it
is not a hull shape that would reward a big rig or a sophisticated keel.
I have Storm Petrel plans, as I have mentioned before in this group,
and I still think it would make a great boat, within its limitations
like any boat. I spoke to PCB and SA over the summer about some mods
to the accommodations or the rig, but I think now I would go with the
stock design if I built it. It could be a great all-around day
motorsailer for a couple without much interest in cruising, but wanting
substantial dry stowage for picnicing or camping gear. It does offer
emergency accommodations in a pinch.
With an infant son in the house now, though, I am a little leery of a
boat that you are more on top of than in, hence my recent interest in
catboat types. Storm Petrel would need some serious railings for peace
of mind with the little guy. Plus the dream of cruising vs. the
reality of family outings (it's a production just to go to the mall) is
beginning to sink in.
More on the catboat research coming up!
Matthew Long
http://www.gis.net/~owlnmole/Pages/brick.html
"peter vanderwaart" <pvander-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2349
Bolger's chapter on Storm Petrel in DIFFERENT BOATS.
I doubt that PCB would recommend a Micro-type keel for Storm Petrel as
the simplicity of the steel keel is part of the boat's "raison d'etre."
Plus, when discussing the modest rig he highlighted the fact that it
is not a hull shape that would reward a big rig or a sophisticated keel.
I have Storm Petrel plans, as I have mentioned before in this group,
and I still think it would make a great boat, within its limitations
like any boat. I spoke to PCB and SA over the summer about some mods
to the accommodations or the rig, but I think now I would go with the
stock design if I built it. It could be a great all-around day
motorsailer for a couple without much interest in cruising, but wanting
substantial dry stowage for picnicing or camping gear. It does offer
emergency accommodations in a pinch.
With an infant son in the house now, though, I am a little leery of a
boat that you are more on top of than in, hence my recent interest in
catboat types. Storm Petrel would need some serious railings for peace
of mind with the little guy. Plus the dream of cruising vs. the
reality of family outings (it's a production just to go to the mall) is
beginning to sink in.
More on the catboat research coming up!
Matthew Long
http://www.gis.net/~owlnmole/Pages/brick.html
"peter vanderwaart" <pvander-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2349
>
> From MAIB, Dec,15,1999:
>
> Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc.
> Boat Designers,
> PO Box 1209
> Gloucester, MA 01930
>
> FAX: 978-282-1349
>
>
> I wonder if Mr. Bolger would suggest a Micro-type keel these days,
> rather than the flat steel plate.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> "greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2343
> > I am interested in buying a set of plans for
> > the Storm Petrel, which I think is Bolger design
> > number 337. I would contact Mr. Bolger directly,
> > but I don't know how. Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Greg Curtis
> >
> >
>
From MAIB, Dec,15,1999:
Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc.
Boat Designers,
PO Box 1209
Gloucester, MA 01930
FAX: 978-282-1349
I wonder if Mr. Bolger would suggest a Micro-type keel these days,
rather than the flat steel plate.
Peter
"greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2343
Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc.
Boat Designers,
PO Box 1209
Gloucester, MA 01930
FAX: 978-282-1349
I wonder if Mr. Bolger would suggest a Micro-type keel these days,
rather than the flat steel plate.
Peter
"greg curtis" <gbcurti-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2343
> I am interested in buying a set of plans for
> the Storm Petrel, which I think is Bolger design
> number 337. I would contact Mr. Bolger directly,
> but I don't know how. Thanks in advance.
>
> Greg Curtis
>
>
I am interested in buying a set of plans for
the Storm Petrel, which I think is Bolger design
number 337. I would contact Mr. Bolger directly,
but I don't know how. Thanks in advance.
Greg Curtis
the Storm Petrel, which I think is Bolger design
number 337. I would contact Mr. Bolger directly,
but I don't know how. Thanks in advance.
Greg Curtis