[bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation

> In therory WDJ gets my vote too. The challenge is to built the thing

> put the therory to the test.

>David: In response to your inquiry as to best boat.
>My vote is for the Jochems family schooner. I see it as kind of nautical
>travel trailer. Can stay in it on the road, or keep it in a distant slip
>for the summer and use it instead of renting a summers house or motel.
>Here on the west coast there are a number of small boat harbors with cheap
>moorage due to dead or curtailed fishing. How does 30$/month sound at the
>mouth of the Columbia River? Due to weather, rough water, cool air, and
>family considerations the jochems makes a lot of sense. It might even be
>cost effective in the long run if it keeps you out of motels and camp
>grounds. Gathering my supplies for the Jochems in Portland Oregon, Richard
>Stover.
>----------
>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>> To:bolger@egroups.com
>> Subject: [bolger] Beer-Fueled speculation
>> Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:22 AM
>>
>> FBBB --
>>
>> Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
>> hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
>>
>> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
>> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
>> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
>> the greatest return on investment?
>>
>> Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and raving.
>>
>> YIBB,
>>
>>
>> David Ryan
>> Minister of Information and Culture
>> Crumbling Empire Productions
>> (212) 247-0296
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
>>http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950027027/
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>>
>
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>

>I'm building a Micro. The bottom is a construct of two layers of 1/8 ply
>with a 1/4-inch layer of foamcore board in between. I'm a novice, so don't
>take this as gospel, but it sure seems stiff enough and it is light. And
>the foamcore is a couple of recycled political campaign posters.
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>I'm building a Micro. The bottom is a construct of two layers of 1/8 ply
>with a 1/4-inch layer of foamcore board in between. I'm a novice, so don't
>take this as gospel, but it sure seems stiff enough and it is light. And
>the foamcore is a couple of recycled political campaign posters.

> I'm building a Micro. The bottom is a construct of two layers of 1/8

> with a 1/4-inch layer of foamcore board in between. I'm a novice, so

> take this as gospel, but it sure seems stiff enough and it is light.

> the foamcore is a couple of recycled political campaign posters.
> ______________________________________________________

>> List;
>> Does anyone out there have experience with using thin walls of plywood that
>> are folded in parallel and stiffened with some kind of expanding
>> polyurethane foam in between the cavities of the plywood walls. Is this
>> viable as a way to give strength at low weight cost?
>> --
>> Meyer

> List;
> Does anyone out there have experience with using thin walls of plywood that
> are folded in parallel and stiffened with some kind of expanding
> polyurethane foam in between the cavities of the plywood walls. Is this
> viable as a way to give strength at low weight cost?
> --
> Meyer

> David, in a word, Micro.
> Stan, Snow Goose
> PS: At least I'm consistent!!
> For the investment of a 16 foot boat, you have the return of the
> inside space of a (home built) 22 footer, and the stability of a 26
> footer. As far as the social status; you defiantly go to the top of the;
> "what the heck is that club". To the uninitiated, (in other words,
> anybody that doesn't know Phil) any sailing accomplishment appears
> greater then it really is, and brings higher praise than deserved.
> For me, the greatest thing I favor about the micro, is the fact that
> when building it, there is the freedom to express your self with a mass
> of modifications without changing Bolger's overall design and benefit
> package that the hull shape provides. Look at the Micros on the web,
> you'll see a different hatch here, a change in the cockpit there, even a
> fantastic keyed keel, but where the sail meets the air and where the
> boat meets the water, everything is still as drawn. (as well it should
> be) ((except for the Navigator, a Micro on steroids)) the ultimate
> modification!
> As has been said, "The Micro is all the boat that 95% of boaters
> need". I would give it a higher number, but then, I'm a fan.
> How many boats can be trailered to the lake, be setup in a half hour
> or less, be big enough and stabile enough for the family outing, be
> single handed along the coastal water way, have a comfortable enough
> cockpit for you and a buddy to weekend fish off of, spend an extended
> river cruise on, runs well on a 4 to 5 HP outboard, be self bailing,
> self righting, self rescuing, easily enough made that even I can do it,
> meet new people with, (as in, "hey pal, do you need all those wheel
> weights") or (Hi neighbors, come over for a beer this afternoon and I'll
> show you how we turn the hull over) And.... drum roll... STILL BE BUILT
> IN A 20 FOOT SINGLE CAR GARAGE!!!! How is that for, Bang for the buck?
> There is much, much more I could add, but I wanted to quit at just a
> rant and leave the raving to the more articulate among us.
> Stan of the MICRO, Snow Goose.
>
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>

> Hard to believe there's no America in the America's Cup.

> > I just knew you'd eventually work in a reference to the proud
> Italians. I'm
> > still shocked that Cayard needed one out of two, lost both starts,

> > really didn't do anything spectacular in either race.
>

> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Beer-Fueled speculation
> Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:22 AM
>
> FBBB --
>
> Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
> hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
>
> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> the greatest return on investment?
>
> Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and raving.
>
> YIBB,
>
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950027027/
>
> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> --http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
>

> What is this "only" stuff? The only such home-built, perhaps. There is
> a mass-produced 15-foot boat made in California called the West Wight
> Potter. People have sailed them across oceans. Of course, they cost
> more than it takes to build a Micro, and may not be available around
> the world. But the Micro is not the only real pocket cruiser less than
> 5 meters.

> I just knew you'd eventually work in a reference to the proud

> still shocked that Cayard needed one out of two, lost both starts, and
> really didn't do anything spectacular in either race.

> Hard to believe there's no America in the America's Cup.

> I ordered my Team NZ Cap and T Shirt two weeks ago and they should

> just before the AC starts. I'm afraid Mr. Coutts and Butterworth are

> going to carve up a super Italian Effort.

> BTW Pippo, do you guys grow these gazillionaires all over, I mean

> have Guardini with the 5 boat Il Moro challenge in '92 and now this

> gentleman. What's with the all the rich Italians and the america's

----- Original Message -----
From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>

>tjfatche-@...wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2460
> > BO>I think they should change the rules again, and require boats of
> square
> > BO>cross section built from plywood.
> >
> > No! If it's restricted to Square Boats, the LS would be blocked from
> the
> > lineup!!!!
> >
> >
> While racing, you can attach a temporary square midship section. But
> everyone knows you need a purpose built boat for the America's Cup. Or
> maybe I should insert grandfather clause allowing flare if sharp angle
> at chine. But I like square better for this purpose.


The current crop of AC boats already have nearly plumb sides. All we need to
require is a hard chine. Looking at the stern sections of TNZ's boats leads
one to beleive we are almost there too.

"Crazy" ol' Phil isn't so crazy after all. He's just ahead of his time!

JB

> BO>I think they should change the rules again, and require boats of

> BO>cross section built from plywood.
>
> No! If it's restricted to Square Boats, the LS would be blocked from

> lineup!!!!
>
>

>david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2443
> >snip
> >
> > My Brooklyn in-laws always give me the hairy eye ball when I talk
> > about boats. For dem, boats is something for snooty rich people, the
> > rest of us are supposed to sit on the stoop.
>My s.o. told someone at work that we had a boat, and she accused us of
>buying it to show we were successful. Little did she know it was small
>enough to pick up with one hand. (Monfort Cartopper 9)

> When I read the first post on this subject the first boat
>that came to mind was the "Sir Joseph Banks" (chapter 75
>BWAOM). At nearly 100 feet this big boy has got to give the
>most bang for the buck. Bolger quoted $250k to knock one
>together back in '91. I doubt it would cost much more these
>days. If some used gear (engines, hydraulics, etc) were used
>I'm sure the cost would be reduced to well under 200k. Now, the
>SJB would certainly pay her own way over the years. Up my way
>here in coastal British Columbia, a boat like this would do a
>profitable trade delivering a wide range goods to all the
>islands. Or, eco-tours. With a fancy fit-out SJB would even
>make an okay small cruise ship for 12 guests and a half dozen
>crew to travel in luxury. Or, the boat could be sailed anywhere
>with a "crew" that pays you for the experiance. If you want
>good value for your dollar or you to make money building boats,
>build a boat like the Sir Joseph Banks.

> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> the greatest return on investment?
>
> Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and

>
> YIBB,
>
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>
I think America's cup is about as far as you
> can get from Bolger boating.

Not that far from Bolger. Bolger is one of the most elegant designers
in history. While he puts his emphisis on bang for the buck and sea
kindly designs. His methods and philosiphy would work on racers as
well with the modification of the cost factors to favor speed, speed,
and light weight.

Both methods of design require taking the cost factors to the extreem.
It's the same idea just at different ends of the spectra. I would bet that
Phil could design a better Americas cup racer than the high end designer
could design a boat to compete with Bolger's.

Gordon W5RED
G. C. Cougergcouger@...Stillwater, OK
"You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky

> No beer here, so maybe my opinion doesn't count, but I think Mr. Long
> has gotten an awful lot of entertainment from his project (a brick).
> Not sure, but I think I heart a faint "what the heck is that?" shouted
> from the direction of Jamaica Plain one time in 1998. Is social status
> to be maximized or minimized? I've gotten a lot of entertainment just
> thinking about a brick, though I think I'd actually go more in the

> Bug direction as I like to row. Current project is a Nymph, but I was
> foolish enough to take it over from someone else, so it's more work
> than it should be. It does sit nice and quiet on top of car at highway
> speeds, which I'll bet a Brick won't.
>
> Anyone know a Bolger design similar to a Car Topper except rows well
> with two people, possibly a tad longer? In more ambitions moments
> sometimes think of doing a stripped out and lightened Sweet Pea with
> daggerboard, transom and outboard rudder. All pipe dream, of course.
>
> david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
> snip
> > In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat

> > the greatest return on investment?
> >snip
> > YIBB,
> > snip
> > David Ryan
> > Minister of Information and Culture
> > Crumbling Empire Productions
> > (212) 247-0296
>

>snip
>
> My Brooklyn in-laws always give me the hairy eye ball when I talk
> about boats. For dem, boats is something for snooty rich people, the
> rest of us are supposed to sit on the stoop.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco [mailto:pippobianco@...]
> Sent: February 08, 2000 6:21 PM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
>
> David, my knowledge of PCB's designs is limited to the ones in published
> in BWAOM and in Dynamite Payson's books, as well as to those whose plans
> are being sold by CSB and Dynamite Payson (plus several others which
> appeared in old issue of the CSD Newsletters).
> Unespectedly enough, I vote for Micro as first and for the sheet-ply
> Chebacco as close second.
> Stan has already said much on Micro: it's the only real pocket cruiser
> less than 5 meters LOA, period. Simple to build, safe, seaworthy
> (exceptionally seaworthy for its size), performant, roomy, comfortable.
> I still don't know for sure about how it goes on and off a trailer: I
> suspect it's a pig to launch and retrieve, but then Gregg Carlson (who
> I'm sure trails, launches and retrieves is 44' ketch too) says that you
> can launch it in ankle deep water...
> Regarding the Chebacco, it's "social status" is higher than the Micro's:
> it's beautiful, fast, shallow draft, luxurious cockpit, the ideal family
> daysailer. I was very close to go for the Chebacco (and I might do that
> in the future) but the Micro is too appealing to me. A quasi-perfect
> boat, as there's no perfect boat, except Luna Rossa ;-)
> Best, Pippo
>
> David Ryan ha scritto:
> >
> > FBBB --
> >
> > Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
> > hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
> >
> > In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> > the greatest return on investment?
> >
> > Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and raving.
> >
> > YIBB,
> >
> > David Ryan
> > Minister of Information and Culture
> > Crumbling Empire Productions
> > (212) 247-0296
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
> >http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950027027/
> >
> > -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> > --http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
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>
>

>i,m kinda partial to the amesbury skiff don,t know bout the bang for buck
>factori just think it looks really kewll gonna have to build one soon
>D.W.Johnson

>
>Our American gazillionaires are now pale, pasty indoor types (with the
>possible exception of Ted Turner, who I heard about from sailboat
>racing long before I heard about him anywhere else). If Bill G becomes
>interested, it will be impossible to beat him unless his boat freezes
>up and needs rebooting. I think America's cup is about as far as you
>can get from Bolger boating.

> >In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> >buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> >construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> >the greatest return on investment?
> >
> Right! You asked for it! I've built half a dozen boats:
>
> 9' Percy Blandford Curlew (gunter rigged sloop)
> 15' Iain Oughtred Seahorse flatiron skiff, lug rigged
> 6.5' trad lapstrake (clinker) pram dinghy by Alan Buchanan
> 13' Payson Pirogue - open double-paddle canoe designed by PCB
> Chebacco 20 by PCB
> June Bug, by PCB
>
> >From this (admittedly limited) experience over the past couple of decades, I
> have no hesitation in announcing that the Payson Pirogue has more hours
> under her keel than any of the others, for a number of reasons:
>
> Easily cartoppable (single handed)
> You can take it anywhere, and launch it where there's 4" of water
> I take it everywhere on holiday, without hassle or anxiety
> I've crossed open water in it (favourable conditions, of course)
> It'll take two people
> Masochists can camp under it
> You can portage it over shallows (single handed)
> You can fish from it
> It's surprisingly fast (low wetted area)
> It can be built from 2 sheets of cheapo ply ($60 including glass tape and
> resin)
> It takes (at most) two weekends to build it
>
> So - It's my most beloved boat.
>
> Bill Samson
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Sign up for one or two today!
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> PIPPO!
>
>snip
>
> Hard to believe there's no America in the America's Cup. The ESPN

> probably crying in their cups and the drop in viewership for the

> prime time races. snip
>
> BTW Pippo, do you guys grow these gazillionaires all over, I mean

> have Guardini with the 5 boat Il Moro challenge in '92 and now this

> gentleman. What's with the all the rich Italians and the america's

>

>snip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco [mailto:pippobianco@...]
> Sent: February 08, 2000 6:21 PM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
>
> David, my knowledge of PCB's designs is limited to the ones in published
> in BWAOM and in Dynamite Payson's books, as well as to those whose plans
> are being sold by CSB and Dynamite Payson (plus several others which
> appeared in old issue of the CSD Newsletters).
> Unespectedly enough, I vote for Micro as first and for the sheet-ply
> Chebacco as close second.
> Stan has already said much on Micro: it's the only real pocket cruiser
> less than 5 meters LOA, period. Simple to build, safe, seaworthy
> (exceptionally seaworthy for its size), performant, roomy, comfortable.
> I still don't know for sure about how it goes on and off a trailer: I
> suspect it's a pig to launch and retrieve, but then Gregg Carlson (who
> I'm sure trails, launches and retrieves is 44' ketch too) says that you
> can launch it in ankle deep water...
> Regarding the Chebacco, it's "social status" is higher than the Micro's:
> it's beautiful, fast, shallow draft, luxurious cockpit, the ideal family
> daysailer. I was very close to go for the Chebacco (and I might do that
> in the future) but the Micro is too appealing to me. A quasi-perfect
> boat, as there's no perfect boat, except Luna Rossa ;-)
> Best, Pippo
>
> David Ryan ha scritto:
> >
> > FBBB --
> >
> > Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
> > hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
> >
> > In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> > the greatest return on investment?
> >
> > Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and raving.
> >
> > YIBB,
> >
> > David Ryan
> > Minister of Information and Culture
> > Crumbling Empire Productions
> > (212) 247-0296
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
> >http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950027027/
> >
> > -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> > --http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Want To Be Showered With Kisses? Visit eGroups Valentine Gift Guide
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1160/5/_/3457/_/950052100/
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> --http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rafael, Meyer [mailto:Meyer.Rafael@...]
> Sent: February 08, 2000 6:24 PM
> To: 'bolger@egroups.com'
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
>
> I am writing from work so the following quotation is from memory...
> In "Boats with an Open Mind", PCB quotes the letter which requests the
> update of the "SeaBird". Not surprisingly this is the lead-in to
> the chapter
> on SeaBird 86.
> The writer (Salter?) writes to PCB, probably via SBJ, saying, "you have
> already updated Rozinante...".
> So I understand from this that there is a low-cost Rozinante suitable to
> build in currently available materials. I have never seen any other
> reference to this boat. This might solve the aged white oak problem. Can
> anyone help with a pointer to the updated Rose?
> Regards
> Meyer
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david [mailto:galvind@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 12:23 PM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
>
> What a facinating thread! I would agree with Bill Samson that the Payson
> Pirogue
> is a pretty nice boat, and I really regret selling the one I built, but if
> we go
> back to Dave's original parameters of the: "poly-dimensional
> matrix of cost
> to
> build, easy [sic] of construction, usability, social status, etc....", I
> would
> have to include resale value and income potential into the equation. This
> would
> lead me to the conclusion that one of PCB's more traditional designs would
> be
> preferred, in spite of the difficulty of the original construction. Now, I
> like
> Romp, Bright Thread, and especially Manatee, and some of the
> smaller designs
> such
> as Lynx are pleasing enough to market if executed well, but what
> could raise
> one's social status (and generate more grant money) than a full
> rigged ship?
> My
> vote goes to The Rose. Does anyone know where I can get a hundred thousand
> board
> feet of well aged white oak, cheap? <g>
> david
>
> Samson family wrote:
>
> > >In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > >buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > >construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> > >the greatest return on investment?
> > >
> > Right! You asked for it! I've built half a dozen boats:
> >
> > 9' Percy Blandford Curlew (gunter rigged sloop)
> > 15' Iain Oughtred Seahorse flatiron skiff, lug rigged
> > 6.5' trad lapstrake (clinker) pram dinghy by Alan Buchanan
> > 13' Payson Pirogue - open double-paddle canoe designed by PCB
> > Chebacco 20 by PCB
> > June Bug, by PCB
> >
> > >From this (admittedly limited) experience over the past couple of
> decades, I
> > have no hesitation in announcing that the Payson Pirogue has more hours
> > under her keel than any of the others, for a number of reasons:
> >
> > Easily cartoppable (single handed)
> > You can take it anywhere, and launch it where there's 4" of water
> > I take it everywhere on holiday, without hassle or anxiety
> > I've crossed open water in it (favourable conditions, of course)
> > It'll take two people
> > Masochists can camp under it
> > You can portage it over shallows (single handed)
> > You can fish from it
> > It's surprisingly fast (low wetted area)
> > It can be built from 2 sheets of cheapo ply ($60 including
> glass tape and
> > resin)
> > It takes (at most) two weekends to build it
> >
> > So - It's my most beloved boat.
> >
> > Bill Samson
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Join eLerts to Save!
> > Sign up for one or two today!
> >http://click.egroups.com/1/1232/5/_/3457/_/950040548/
> >
> > eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
> >http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
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>
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> --http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
>
>

>I am writing from work so the following quotation is from memory...
>In "Boats with an Open Mind", PCB quotes the letter which requests the
>update of the "SeaBird". Not surprisingly this is the lead-in to the chapter
>on SeaBird 86.
>The writer (Salter?) writes to PCB, probably via SBJ, saying, "you have
>already updated Rozinante...".
>So I understand from this that there is a low-cost Rozinante suitable to
>build in currently available materials. I have never seen any other
>reference to this boat. This might solve the aged white oak problem. Can
>anyone help with a pointer to the updated Rose?
>Regards
>Meyer

> Stan has already said much on Micro: it's the only real pocket cruiser
> less than 5 meters LOA, period.

> >In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> >buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> >construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> >the greatest return on investment?
> >
> Right! You asked for it! I've built half a dozen boats:
>
> 9' Percy Blandford Curlew (gunter rigged sloop)
> 15' Iain Oughtred Seahorse flatiron skiff, lug rigged
> 6.5' trad lapstrake (clinker) pram dinghy by Alan Buchanan
> 13' Payson Pirogue - open double-paddle canoe designed by PCB
> Chebacco 20 by PCB
> June Bug, by PCB
>
> >From this (admittedly limited) experience over the past couple of

> have no hesitation in announcing that the Payson Pirogue has more hours
> under her keel than any of the others, for a number of reasons:
>
> Easily cartoppable (single handed)
> You can take it anywhere, and launch it where there's 4" of water
> I take it everywhere on holiday, without hassle or anxiety
> I've crossed open water in it (favourable conditions, of course)
> It'll take two people
> Masochists can camp under it
> You can portage it over shallows (single handed)
> You can fish from it
> It's surprisingly fast (low wetted area)
> It can be built from 2 sheets of cheapo ply ($60 including glass tape and
> resin)
> It takes (at most) two weekends to build it
>
> So - It's my most beloved boat.
>
> Bill Samson
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join eLerts to Save!
> Sign up for one or two today!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1232/5/_/3457/_/950040548/
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>http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications

>
> FBBB --
>
> Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
> hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
>
> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> the greatest return on investment?
>
> Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and raving.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950027027/
>
> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> --http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1

>It seems to me that between the racing accolades, adventures, and never
>ending internet fame Mr.Fatchen has done well by his 12 sheets of
>plywood.
>-Tim B.

> FBBB --
>
> Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
> hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
>
> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> the greatest return on investment?
>
> Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and

>
> YIBB,
>
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296

>David, in a word, Micro.
> For the investment of a 16 foot boat, you have the return of the
>inside space of a (home built) 22 footer, and the stability of a 26
>footer. As far as the social status; you defiantly go to the top of the;
>"what the heck is that club". To the uninitiated, (in other words,
>anybody that doesn't know Phil) any sailing accomplishment appears
>greater then it really is, and brings higher praise than deserved.
> <snip>
> As has been said, "The Micro is all the boat that 95% of boaters
>need". I would give it a higher number, but then, I'm a fan.
> <snip>
>self righting, self rescuing, easily enough made that even I can do it,
>meet new people with, (as in, "hey pal, do you need all those wheel
>weights") or (Hi neighbors, come over for a beer this afternoon and I'll
>show you how we turn the hull over) And.... drum roll... STILL BE BUILT
>IN A 20 FOOT SINGLE CAR GARAGE!!!! How is that for, Bang for the buck?

>david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
>snip
> >
> > I have a decidedly "hill-billy" way of putting my teal on the roof of
> > my honda mini-car. If the cops every stopped my, I think I'd be
> > executed on the spot. I always put banjo music in the tape deck.
> >
>I'm curious. I've seen a lot of things leave a car roof in a scary way,
>though usually they are just chunks of ice. Hope it's secure. My
>parental units once sent a door flying at 60mph. Fortunately no one was
>in the way. I resolved then to be better with ropes and knots.

>Be careful not to let this come to the attention of the boat building
>companies (with possible exception of canoe outfits). They might make
>you move to the third world. Do you want to subvert the system of never
>being happy with what you have? In my boating area I have seen a 20+
>foot deep v planing in circles at a spot where the water was only 100
>or 150 feet wide. I see a lot of boats with 100+ horsepower motors. I
>can ROW a scull from one end of the area to the other in 45 minutes
>(not counting the areas too small for large outboards).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lincoln Ross [SMTP:lincolnr@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 3:57 PM
> To:bolger@...
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
> "fries, john" <john.frie-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2395
> SNIP I build a Gypsy last spring and have been very pleased
> > with it. I have had 3 adults (relatively comfortably) on board for
> sailing.
> > Have rowed with two on board. Recommended.
> >
> > >
> I know about the Gypsy, but it looked to me as if with two people you
> had to sit on the daggerboard to row, at least that's what it looked
> like to me on the drawings. Also, drawings show a displacement of
> something like 425 lbs, I think, but that would be our crew weight
> (with picnic stuff). Was hoping to stay below max displacement to keep
> sailing lively, or does it turn out to be just fine with the extra
> load?. Also, with all the fancy stuff that I don't feel like building,
> I bet it's too heavy to put on car.
>
> Probably the best match for my req'ts as designed is Michalak Piccup,
> but to my eye it's not very pretty and I'll bet it's not as fast as
> some of these other boats. Looks like a nice design functionally,
> however. To be realistic about my building ambitions, maybe Twixt (or
> is that Tween, I get confused).
>
> However, I've heard good things about Gypsy from people who should know.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Unique Valentine gifts, available now at eGroups.
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1154/5/_/3457/_/950043408/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> --http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>

>
> I have a decidedly "hill-billy" way of putting my teal on the roof of
> my honda mini-car. If the cops every stopped my, I think I'd be
> executed on the spot. I always put banjo music in the tape deck.
>

> When I leave my boat at the beach,snip

> snip but creating the path of least
> resistance between your obligation and your boating is probably even
> more important.
>
> In addition to the "boat/no boat" calculus that leads many of us hear
> to hours-days-years of enjoyment in a Brick, I think there is an
> equally "watertime/no watertime" equation. A boat that's too heavy to
> get on and off the roof easily definitely weights the scale on the
> wrong side.
>
> Snip

----- Original Message -----
From: David Ryan <david@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:22 AM
Subject: [bolger] Beer-Fueled speculation


> FBBB --
>
> Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
> hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
>
> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> the greatest return on investment?
>
> Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and raving.
>
> YIBB,
>
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950027027/
>
> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> --http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
>

> with it. I have had 3 adults (relatively comfortably) on board for

> Have rowed with two on board. Recommended.
>
> >

>Lots of small boats are being suggested for best roi. I would suggest
>considering economies of scale. With the Tennessee, you have to deal with a
>trailer, but you can pull this thirty foot motor cruiser with a smallish
>car. The total cost if you get a used motor can be under two grand, and the
>mileage can exceed 15 mpg. I realize that most of the guys on this DG are
>sail or paddle/oar oriented, but consider this: the Tennessee comes with
>head, galley, spacious cockpit, huge lazaret, and sleeps two. She draws
>four, count 'em, four inches of water. Lets figure the cost of this boat
>against the cost of a typical cruiser with these dimensions and
>accommodations. I get about fifty to one. Can any of you other guys say
>that about your nominees?
>

>In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
>buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
>construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
>the greatest return on investment?
>

>
> You can talk all day about creating the path of least resistance for
> the water to travel around your hull, but creatin the path of least
> resistance between your obligation and your boating is probably even
> more important.
>

> In addition to the "boat/no boat" calculus that leads many of us hear
> to hours-days-years of enjoyment in a Brick, I think there is an
> equally "watertime/no watertime" equation. A boat that's too heavy to
> get on and off the roof easily definitely weights the scale on the
> wrong side.
>
> During the Summer, all manner of boats anchor at the South End of
> Lake Montauk, but all but the working boat disappear when the weather
> turns brisk. I can help wonder how well an AS29 would weather the
> winter rolled up the beach on logs egyption style.
>
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296

>I have a friend with a Gypsy, who worked out a method of cartopping. He
>stores the boat upright, under the garage rafters, lowering it directly on
>to his station wagon's roof, still upright. He has a customized sheet of
>ply on the roof racks with locating holes, and a roller affair built at the
>rear. To get the boat on the ground, he slides it off the rear, over this
>roller. At the stern of the boat, he has attaches a small 2 wheeled dolly
>using the gudgeons to locate and hold it. Then he can lift the bow, and
>wheel the boat to the water. Going home, he reverses the whole operation.
>
>He can load and unload without help, but it's still heavy work, and not
>quick. As a result, he doesn't go out as often as he'd like.

> I have muscleed it off its trailer and dragged (drug??) it to the

> Truthfully, probably too heavy for cartopping although two strong

> handle it.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carter Kennedy [SMTP:jkck@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 12:40 PM
> > To:bolger@...
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
> >
> > "fries, john" <john.frie-@...> wrote:
> > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2395
> > > To answer your question about a design similar to the Cartopper,

> > I look
> > > at the plans for Cartopper I am struck by its similarity (at

> > hull
> > > design) with Gypsy. Gypsy has very similar construction and is

> > 4'4"
> > > and rows very well. I build a Gypsy last spring and have been

> > pleased
> > > with it. I have had 3 adults (relatively comfortably) on board

> > sailing.
> > > Have rowed with two on board. Recommended.
> >
> > Is Gypsy light enought to car-top?
> >

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carter Kennedy [SMTP:jkck@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 12:40 PM
> To:bolger@...
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
> "fries, john" <john.frie-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2395
> > To answer your question about a design similar to the Cartopper, when
> I look
> > at the plans for Cartopper I am struck by its similarity (at least in
> hull
> > design) with Gypsy. Gypsy has very similar construction and is 15' x
> 4'4"
> > and rows very well. I build a Gypsy last spring and have been very
> pleased
> > with it. I have had 3 adults (relatively comfortably) on board for
> sailing.
> > Have rowed with two on board. Recommended.
>
> Is Gypsy light enought to car-top?
>
> For bangs for bucks, I say no motors! And no trailers! Of course,
> having power and enough size for a head and a bed increase the bang
> factor without necessarily increasing bucks by a great amount. Okay,
> you can have a little outboard. If you are going into the
> motor-and-trailer size, why not maximize your sailing fun and go beyond
> the Micro to the Chebacco? Maybe a cruising Chebacco. Then you would't
> have to pour that keel!
>
> There is a small rant for you-- I was once owned by a Chris-Craft
> inboard.
>
> Carter K.
>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lincoln Ross [SMTP:lincolnr@...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:56 AM
> > > To:bolger@...
> > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
> > >
> > > No beer here, so maybe my opinion doesn't count, but I think Mr.
> Long
> > > has gotten an awful lot of entertainment from his project (a brick).
> > > Not sure, but I think I heart a faint "what the heck is that?"
> shouted
> > > from the direction of Jamaica Plain one time in 1998. Is social
> status
> > > to be maximized or minimized? I've gotten a lot of entertainment
> just
> > > thinking about a brick, though I think I'd actually go more in the
> June
> > > Bug direction as I like to row. Current project is a Nymph, but I
> was
> > > foolish enough to take it over from someone else, so it's more work
> > > than it should be. It does sit nice and quiet on top of car at
> highway
> > > speeds, which I'll bet a Brick won't.
> > >
> > > Anyone know a Bolger design similar to a Car Topper except rows well
> > > with two people, possibly a tad longer? In more ambitions moments
> > > sometimes think of doing a stripped out and lightened Sweet Pea with
> > > daggerboard, transom and outboard rudder. All pipe dream, of course.
> > >
> > > david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
> > > snip
> > > > In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > > > buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > > > construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat
> yields
> > > > the greatest return on investment?
> > > >snip
> > > > YIBB,
> > > > snip
> > > > David Ryan
> > > > Minister of Information and Culture
> > > > Crumbling Empire Productions
> > > > (212) 247-0296
> > >
> > >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join eGroups eLerts to Save!
> Sign up for one or two today!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1235/5/_/3457/_/950031627/
>
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> --http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carter Kennedy [SMTP:jkck@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 12:40 PM
> To:bolger@...
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
> "fries, john" <john.frie-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2395
> > To answer your question about a design similar to the Cartopper, when
> I look
> > at the plans for Cartopper I am struck by its similarity (at least in
> hull
> > design) with Gypsy. Gypsy has very similar construction and is 15' x
> 4'4"
> > and rows very well. I build a Gypsy last spring and have been very
> pleased
> > with it. I have had 3 adults (relatively comfortably) on board for
> sailing.
> > Have rowed with two on board. Recommended.
>
> Is Gypsy light enought to car-top?
>
> For bangs for bucks, I say no motors! And no trailers! Of course,
> having power and enough size for a head and a bed increase the bang
> factor without necessarily increasing bucks by a great amount. Okay,
> you can have a little outboard. If you are going into the
> motor-and-trailer size, why not maximize your sailing fun and go beyond
> the Micro to the Chebacco? Maybe a cruising Chebacco. Then you would't
> have to pour that keel!
>
> There is a small rant for you-- I was once owned by a Chris-Craft
> inboard.
>
> Carter K.
>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lincoln Ross [SMTP:lincolnr@...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:56 AM
> > > To:bolger@...
> > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
> > >
> > > No beer here, so maybe my opinion doesn't count, but I think Mr.
> Long
> > > has gotten an awful lot of entertainment from his project (a brick).
> > > Not sure, but I think I heart a faint "what the heck is that?"
> shouted
> > > from the direction of Jamaica Plain one time in 1998. Is social
> status
> > > to be maximized or minimized? I've gotten a lot of entertainment
> just
> > > thinking about a brick, though I think I'd actually go more in the
> June
> > > Bug direction as I like to row. Current project is a Nymph, but I
> was
> > > foolish enough to take it over from someone else, so it's more work
> > > than it should be. It does sit nice and quiet on top of car at
> highway
> > > speeds, which I'll bet a Brick won't.
> > >
> > > Anyone know a Bolger design similar to a Car Topper except rows well
> > > with two people, possibly a tad longer? In more ambitions moments
> > > sometimes think of doing a stripped out and lightened Sweet Pea with
> > > daggerboard, transom and outboard rudder. All pipe dream, of course.
> > >
> > > david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
> > > snip
> > > > In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > > > buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > > > construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat
> yields
> > > > the greatest return on investment?
> > > >snip
> > > > YIBB,
> > > > snip
> > > > David Ryan
> > > > Minister of Information and Culture
> > > > Crumbling Empire Productions
> > > > (212) 247-0296
> > >
> > >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join eGroups eLerts to Save!
> Sign up for one or two today!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1235/5/_/3457/_/950031627/
>
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> --http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
>

> To answer your question about a design similar to the Cartopper, when

> at the plans for Cartopper I am struck by its similarity (at least in

> design) with Gypsy. Gypsy has very similar construction and is 15' x

> and rows very well. I build a Gypsy last spring and have been very

> with it. I have had 3 adults (relatively comfortably) on board for

> Have rowed with two on board. Recommended.

>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lincoln Ross [SMTP:lincolnr@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:56 AM
> > To:bolger@...
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
> >
> > No beer here, so maybe my opinion doesn't count, but I think Mr.

> > has gotten an awful lot of entertainment from his project (a brick).
> > Not sure, but I think I heart a faint "what the heck is that?"

> > from the direction of Jamaica Plain one time in 1998. Is social

> > to be maximized or minimized? I've gotten a lot of entertainment

> > thinking about a brick, though I think I'd actually go more in the

> > Bug direction as I like to row. Current project is a Nymph, but I

> > foolish enough to take it over from someone else, so it's more work
> > than it should be. It does sit nice and quiet on top of car at

> > speeds, which I'll bet a Brick won't.
> >
> > Anyone know a Bolger design similar to a Car Topper except rows well
> > with two people, possibly a tad longer? In more ambitions moments
> > sometimes think of doing a stripped out and lightened Sweet Pea with
> > daggerboard, transom and outboard rudder. All pipe dream, of course.
> >
> > david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
> > snip
> > > In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > > buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > > construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat

> > > the greatest return on investment?
> > >snip
> > > YIBB,
> > > snip
> > > David Ryan
> > > Minister of Information and Culture
> > > Crumbling Empire Productions
> > > (212) 247-0296
> >
> >

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lincoln Ross [SMTP:lincolnr@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 11:56 AM
> To:bolger@...
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Beer-Fueled speculation
>
> No beer here, so maybe my opinion doesn't count, but I think Mr. Long
> has gotten an awful lot of entertainment from his project (a brick).
> Not sure, but I think I heart a faint "what the heck is that?" shouted
> from the direction of Jamaica Plain one time in 1998. Is social status
> to be maximized or minimized? I've gotten a lot of entertainment just
> thinking about a brick, though I think I'd actually go more in the June
> Bug direction as I like to row. Current project is a Nymph, but I was
> foolish enough to take it over from someone else, so it's more work
> than it should be. It does sit nice and quiet on top of car at highway
> speeds, which I'll bet a Brick won't.
>
> Anyone know a Bolger design similar to a Car Topper except rows well
> with two people, possibly a tad longer? In more ambitions moments
> sometimes think of doing a stripped out and lightened Sweet Pea with
> daggerboard, transom and outboard rudder. All pipe dream, of course.
>
> david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
> snip
> > In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> > buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> > construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> > the greatest return on investment?
> >snip
> > YIBB,
> > snip
> > David Ryan
> > Minister of Information and Culture
> > Crumbling Empire Productions
> > (212) 247-0296
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join eGroups eLerts to Save!
> Sign up for one or two today!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1229/5/_/3457/_/950028944/
>
> -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
> --http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>

----- Original Message -----
From: David Ryan <david@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 10:22 AM
Subject: [bolger] Beer-Fueled speculation


> FBBB --
>
> Since it's still too cold to build, I offer up the following in the
> hopes of stimulating lively discussion.
>
> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> the greatest return on investment?
>
> Answers will be graded on a curve. Extra points for ranting and raving.
>
> YIBB,
>
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950027027/
>
> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> --http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
>
>

>
>
>Anyone know a Bolger design similar to a Car Topper except rows well
>with two people, possibly a tad longer? In more ambitions moments
>sometimes think of doing a stripped out and lightened Sweet Pea with
>daggerboard, transom and outboard rudder. All pipe dream, of course.

> In your opinion, which PCB design offers the most "bang for the
> buck?" In a poly-dimensional matrix of cost to build, easy of
> construction, usability, social status, etc. which Bolger boat yields
> the greatest return on investment?
>snip
> YIBB,
> snip
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296