[bolger] Re: external chine logs, vinyl ester resin

wmrpag-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2520
>snip and polyester
> resin for the glass cloth. I don't recall that it had a particularly
> offensive odor. I may have been impaired by the fumes, but I built it
in my
> landlord's garage and neither he nor the neighbors complained about
odors.
> snip
> Bill from the land of HARD water.
There are very few chemicals I've worked with that are more smelly than
polyester resin. Gasoline might be one of them, I'm not sure as I don't
spread it around. Lacquer is not as bad. Are you SURE it wasn't epoxy
you used?

I worked on a job in a building with other tenants where we used some
polyester resin. After the first time any strange smell in the area was
blamed on us, though most of the time it was one of the other tenants.

Anyway, the stuff is cheap so it doesn't cost much to buy a small
container and (carefully) sniff. Watch out for the catalyst, tho. I
understand it is very nasty stuff.
I find the objections to polyester resin a bit curious. Some years ago I
built a cedar strip canoe (Bob Brown's "Pirate" - plans from the Minnesota
Canoe Association) with Elmer's carpenter's glue as adhesive and polyester
resin for the glass cloth. I don't recall that it had a particularly
offensive odor. I may have been impaired by the fumes, but I built it in my
landlord's garage and neither he nor the neighbors complained about odors.
(The sawdust I generated while fairing the strips was another matter.) I
varnished it inside and out for UV protection. The whole works has held up
quite well.

Bill from the land of HARD water.
On 9 Feb 00, Tim Bush wrote:

> I have used Acetone.

Be careful, boys! Acetone will eat your liver. Guaranteed.
I have had very good results thinning with acetone - even weakened epoxy is
stronger than wood. It's usually just a way to get more coverage when
sealing the wood...

Don Hodges
dhodges@...
http://www.ecoastlife.com
Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert N. Lundy <robert@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 5:19 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: external chine logs, vinyl ester resin


> Actually, West System had an article about penetration (epoxy wise anyway)
> via thinning or heating the substrate in a recent issue of their
epoxyworks
> newsletter. The essence of it was that thinning was a bad idea, as it
> significantly reduced the strength of the epoxy. Heating the article to
be
> epoxied with a blow dryer and then spreading on unthinned epoxy gave good
> results for penetration without the loss of strength.
>
> FYI-Under the current prevailing cultural understanding of the "Resin
> Issue", polyester and vinylester are both poor for the work all of us do
> because of their very poor adhesion to substrates. This is especially
true
> about vinylester, a product mainly used to inhibit water's propensity to
> make bubbles in fiberglass boat's gelcoat.
>
> In one of the "Instant Boatbuilder" issues on Chuck Merrel's "Private
> Postings" site, he tells of an experiment where you laminate a skin of
glass
> cloth to a square piece of plywood, then trim the edges so that you have a
> nice clean edge, pick at the edge of the glass/polyester and its will peel
> off with very little persuasion. That was the description that did it for
> me as far as using polyesters in plywood boatbuilding.
>
> Robert & Amy Lundy
> St. Petersburg, fla.
>robert@...
>amy@...
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Bush [mailto:tbush@...]
> > Sent: February 09, 2000 6:04 PM
> > To:bolger@...
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: external chine logs, vinyl ester resin
> >
> >
> > Ed,
> > I have used Acetone. It doesn't seem to affect curing as it flashes off
> > quickly. In humid conditions it can lead to blushing from the
> > temperature drop.
> >
> >
> >
> > "ed haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
> > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2456
> > > "tim bush" wrote:
> > > > One of the tricks to making polyester, vinyl ester, or epoxy stick
> > to
> > > > wood is to thin the first coat.
> > >
> > > Tim,
> > >
> > > What do you use to thin epoxy?
> > >
> > > Ed Haile
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Love. Relationships? E - Commerce!
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> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
"robert n. lundy" <rober-@...> wrote:
osnip
>
> FYI-Under the current prevailing cultural understanding of the "Resin
> Issue", polyester and vinylester are both poor for the work all of us
do
> because of their very poor adhesion to substrates. This is
especially true
> about vinylester, a product mainly used to inhibit water's propensity
to
> make bubbles in fiberglass boat's gelcoat.
>
Well, there are actually structural uses for the stuff. I understand it
deflects more before it breaks than polyester does (tho not as much as
epoxy). Also, it's alleged to have a high deflection temperature. SO if
you have a structural application on the deck, involving a pure
fiberglass part, and you have no nose, it might be very good. Epoxy can
really have a problem in the sun if you are stressing it. Ever wonder
why most of the composite homebuilt airplanes are white? I seem to
recall the Glassair is made from this stuff.

Epoxies that cure at a high temp are less vulnerable to heat
deflection, of course.

What I'm wondering is if you take normal epoxy and give it some time at
100 or 120F, whether it's heat deflection temp is significantly raised?
Actually, West System had an article about penetration (epoxy wise anyway)
via thinning or heating the substrate in a recent issue of their epoxyworks
newsletter. The essence of it was that thinning was a bad idea, as it
significantly reduced the strength of the epoxy. Heating the article to be
epoxied with a blow dryer and then spreading on unthinned epoxy gave good
results for penetration without the loss of strength.

FYI-Under the current prevailing cultural understanding of the "Resin
Issue", polyester and vinylester are both poor for the work all of us do
because of their very poor adhesion to substrates. This is especially true
about vinylester, a product mainly used to inhibit water's propensity to
make bubbles in fiberglass boat's gelcoat.

In one of the "Instant Boatbuilder" issues on Chuck Merrel's "Private
Postings" site, he tells of an experiment where you laminate a skin of glass
cloth to a square piece of plywood, then trim the edges so that you have a
nice clean edge, pick at the edge of the glass/polyester and its will peel
off with very little persuasion. That was the description that did it for
me as far as using polyesters in plywood boatbuilding.

Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Bush [mailto:tbush@...]
> Sent: February 09, 2000 6:04 PM
> To:bolger@...
> Subject: [bolger] Re: external chine logs, vinyl ester resin
>
>
> Ed,
> I have used Acetone. It doesn't seem to affect curing as it flashes off
> quickly. In humid conditions it can lead to blushing from the
> temperature drop.
>
>
>
> "ed haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2456
> > "tim bush" wrote:
> > > One of the tricks to making polyester, vinyl ester, or epoxy stick
> to
> > > wood is to thin the first coat.
> >
> > Tim,
> >
> > What do you use to thin epoxy?
> >
> > Ed Haile
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Love. Relationships? E - Commerce!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1145/5/_/3457/_/950137484/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> --http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
Ed,
I have used Acetone. It doesn't seem to affect curing as it flashes off
quickly. In humid conditions it can lead to blushing from the
temperature drop.



"ed haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2456
> "tim bush" wrote:
> > One of the tricks to making polyester, vinyl ester, or epoxy stick
to
> > wood is to thin the first coat.
>
> Tim,
>
> What do you use to thin epoxy?
>
> Ed Haile
>
"tim bush" wrote:
> One of the tricks to making polyester, vinyl ester, or epoxy stick to
> wood is to thin the first coat.

Tim,

What do you use to thin epoxy?

Ed Haile
Andy:

We are going to break you of the habit of posting on this DG at all by
shooting down each and every proposal you make. ;-)

Peter has dismissed the chine log thing, so I will address vinyl ester as an
alternate sealer for plywood. My experience is that epoxy makes a poor
sealer for coniferous plywood. Some say it works well for Luan which i am
pretty sure is deciduous. Now if you add some kind of cloth to the resin,
then you will get an effective barrier. Anyway, maybe it's just me, but I
don't find epoxy the least bit "nasty", especially compared to polyester.

Chuck Leinweber
Duckworks Magazine
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com


----- Original Message -----
From: andy farquhar <afarquhar@...>
To: <bolger@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 9:29 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: external chine logs, vinyl ester resin


> My comments on financing schemes were taken a little too seriously.
> Like any scheme (e.g. Ponzi, pyramid, Reaganomics), it is important
> that the plan has the appearance of viability - not that it will
> actually work. I have built a glued lapstrake sailing canoe which I am
> pretty sure would sell for more that what it cost to build, but I
> cannot part with it for emotional reasons. I agree that there may not
> be as strong a market for a less traditionally beautiful (euphemism for
> odd) boat like oldshoe.
>
> On to more serious matters:
>
> I am thinking of adding an external chine log (laminated 1x2s?) to my
> oldshoe. I have no objection to the aesthetics, and I believe this
> will give it marginally better performance to windward as the boat
> heels over toward the chine. Any opinons with regard to this would be
> appreciated.
>
> Also, has anyone used vinyl ester resin to waterproof/seal plywood? It
> appears to be slightly less expensive and considerably less nasty that
> epoxy.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/5/_/3457/_/950039169/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> --http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
One of the tricks to making polyester, vinyl ester, or epoxy stick to
wood is to thin the first coat. Any glue or coating is only as good as
the initial penetration. The more close grained the wood is the more
the need is to thin out the coating. Some home built airplanes use T88
both for glue and thinned 50/50 for a coating.
The other trick is NEVER leave edges un-coated. Moisture preferes to
travel along the grain rather than across it.
From what I have read vinyl ester is a modified epoxy compound, the
claims are that is has greater water resistance than epoxy and lower
toxicity. I have never used it myself. It sounds promising, but I think
I will wait for someone else to try it first.

Tim B.



"chuck leinweber" <duckwork-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2418
> Andy:
>
> We are going to break you of the habit of posting on this DG at all by
> shooting down each and every proposal you make. ;-)
>
> Peter has dismissed the chine log thing, so I will address vinyl
ester as an
> alternate sealer for plywood. My experience is that epoxy makes a
poor
> sealer for coniferous plywood. Some say it works well for Luan which
i am
> pretty sure is deciduous. Now if you add some kind of cloth to the
resin,
> then you will get an effective barrier. Anyway, maybe it's just me,
but I
> don't find epoxy the least bit "nasty", especially compared to
polyester.
>
> Chuck Leinweber
> Duckworks Magazine
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: andy farquhar <afarquhar@...>
> To: <bolger@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 9:29 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: external chine logs, vinyl ester resin
>
>
> > My comments on financing schemes were taken a little too seriously.
> > Like any scheme (e.g. Ponzi, pyramid, Reaganomics), it is important
> > that the plan has the appearance of viability - not that it will
> > actually work. I have built a glued lapstrake sailing canoe which
I am
> > pretty sure would sell for more that what it cost to build, but I
> > cannot part with it for emotional reasons. I agree that there may
not
> > be as strong a market for a less traditionally beautiful (euphemism
for
> > odd) boat like oldshoe.
> >
> > On to more serious matters:
> >
> > I am thinking of adding an external chine log (laminated 1x2s?) to
my
> > oldshoe. I have no objection to the aesthetics, and I believe this
> > will give it marginally better performance to windward as the boat
> > heels over toward the chine. Any opinons with regard to this would
be
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Also, has anyone used vinyl ester resin to waterproof/seal plywood?
It
> > appears to be slightly less expensive and considerably less nasty
that
> > epoxy.
> >
> >
"andy farquhar" <afarquha-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2407
>snip
> Also, has anyone used vinyl ester resin to waterproof/seal plywood?
It
> appears to be slightly less expensive and considerably less nasty that
> epoxy.
>
DOesn't it smell like polyester (I could be wrong)? If you don't use
your nose or lungs, then maybe it's less nasty. It is not hard to be
careful with epoxy, mostly a matter of attitude and thinking before
doing. If you don't get any on you and use some ventilation, I don't
think it should be too bad. If I had to use polyester to build boats I
think I would suddenly be attracted to golf or focus exclusively on
model airplanes. If vinylester is anything like that...

Also, if you use something that smells like polyester, be downwind of
your neighbors.
Is the hope of 'marginally better performance to windward' your primary
reason for adding the chine logs? If so, I think the same investment of
time/$ would pay off better in another place. The chine logs will
degrade performance as often as they help it.

Since I don't know you or your boat, I don't know which of the
following may be relevent, but here are alternate possibilities:
polishing the bottom to the ultimate sleekness, refining the shape of
the keel (filleting interior corners, rounding exterior corners), small
well-shaped, well-placed bilge fins, more sophisticated shape to the
rudder, end plate somewhere on the keel (no, I don't care to guess what
might be good), lighter, more carefully shaped spars, better sheet
lead, more powerful snotter or outhaul, better placement of weight in
the boat, buy/read a book on performance sailing.

One of the reasons for all the fancy deck gear on racing yachts is to
be able to control the power from the sail to get maximum drive with
minimum heeling moment. Controlling the twist in the sail a little
better may make it possible to sail with less heel in the same amount
of wind. This will pay off in much more speed than the chine logs
would. So I would look first to the sail controls:
traveler/snotter/halyard,downhaul - whatever you have.

On the other hand, if your primary motivation is to make the chine
stronger for running into rocks and falling off the trailer, then it
sounds good to me.

Peter

> I am thinking of adding an external chine log (laminated 1x2s?) to my
> oldshoe. I have no objection to the aesthetics, and I believe this
> will give it marginally better performance to windward as the boat
> heels over toward the chine. Any opinons with regard to this would be
> appreciated.
>My comments on financing schemes were taken a little too seriously.
>Like any scheme (e.g. Ponzi, pyramid, Reaganomics), it is important
>that the plan has the appearance of viability - not that it will
>actually work.

You'll have to forgive me. Working in NYC in the .com era, we see
plenty of "ligit" business plans that are sketchier that what you
proposed, (and plenty of them get funding!) Add some sort of Web
component to your plan, and we'll take it public, (NASDAQ symbol
PCBB.) It's a WEIRD time, to say the least.

YIBB,

David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
My comments on financing schemes were taken a little too seriously.
Like any scheme (e.g. Ponzi, pyramid, Reaganomics), it is important
that the plan has the appearance of viability - not that it will
actually work. I have built a glued lapstrake sailing canoe which I am
pretty sure would sell for more that what it cost to build, but I
cannot part with it for emotional reasons. I agree that there may not
be as strong a market for a less traditionally beautiful (euphemism for
odd) boat like oldshoe.

On to more serious matters:

I am thinking of adding an external chine log (laminated 1x2s?) to my
oldshoe. I have no objection to the aesthetics, and I believe this
will give it marginally better performance to windward as the boat
heels over toward the chine. Any opinons with regard to this would be
appreciated.

Also, has anyone used vinyl ester resin to waterproof/seal plywood? It
appears to be slightly less expensive and considerably less nasty that
epoxy.