[bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
>Actually the "biggest bang for the buck" is what I am looking at. (IThere are many aspects of the Fuji that probably make it more
>also have Nortel stock;-)) Personally I have no desire to go on long
>bluewater passages. In fact I like to stay in sight of land. That's
>still allowed with a bluewater boat isn't it? Especially one that is
>capable of sailing in two feet of water? I guess I may be going
>against convention here by downsizing a bigger boat rather than
>trying to make a small boat bigger, faster, hairier.
>
>What I am considering is approaching the master about a design like
>Fiji but about 12 feet shorter. If there are others who might be
>interested in such a design, what would they want? Sort of a
>brainstorming session is what I had in mind.
suitable/comfortable for your purposes than traditional boats sold to
fit the spec.
My only point about crossing "bluewater" off your list is that if you
don't need that degree of survivability there's no sense paying for
it, either in cash, hours spent working, or compromising other
aspects of the design. A Chapelle book of mine has a rant from 80
years ago about too many boats build to survive Winter on the Grand
Banks when all they ever actually do it short coastal hops.
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
--- In bolger@y..., "CJ" <cj7_579@y...> wrote:
warmer, drier and quieter as well as being easier to finish inside.
But I could be wrong. Colonel Halser hull is all steel.
Thanks, Nels
> Could it be built out of all steel?Probably would be simpler, but I prefer wood myself. To me, wood is
> Would all steel be better or simpler?
> CJ
warmer, drier and quieter as well as being easier to finish inside.
But I could be wrong. Colonel Halser hull is all steel.
Thanks, Nels
Actually the "biggest bang for the buck" is what I am looking at. (I
also have Nortel stock;-)) Personally I have no desire to go on long
bluewater passages. In fact I like to stay in sight of land. That's
still allowed with a bluewater boat isn't it? Especially one that is
capable of sailing in two feet of water? I guess I may be going
against convention here by downsizing a bigger boat rather than
trying to make a small boat bigger, faster, hairier.
What I am considering is approaching the master about a design like
Fiji but about 12 feet shorter. If there are others who might be
interested in such a design, what would they want? Sort of a
brainstorming session is what I had in mind.
An ideal size is a Jessie Cooper but PCB himself no longer advises
building it as it has so many weaknesses.
Nels
also have Nortel stock;-)) Personally I have no desire to go on long
bluewater passages. In fact I like to stay in sight of land. That's
still allowed with a bluewater boat isn't it? Especially one that is
capable of sailing in two feet of water? I guess I may be going
against convention here by downsizing a bigger boat rather than
trying to make a small boat bigger, faster, hairier.
What I am considering is approaching the master about a design like
Fiji but about 12 feet shorter. If there are others who might be
interested in such a design, what would they want? Sort of a
brainstorming session is what I had in mind.
An ideal size is a Jessie Cooper but PCB himself no longer advises
building it as it has so many weaknesses.
Nels
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
>
> >What I am thinking is that it may be useful to have an offshore
> >design, even if one never goes offshore, rather than have a coastal
> >cruiser that MIGHT be offshore capable. Then to have it fully
capable
> >as a basic liveaboard, even if one never lives aboard for very
long.
> >Also three of the areas where I would like to explore involve some
> >river or canal travel as well, so motoring capability is almost as
> >important as sailing, although speed is not an issue if the boat is
> >seaworthy.
>
> I don't know about the particulars of the above write's situation.
> For him it might make sense to build a passage maker just incase he
> ever decides to cross an ocean. But for the average person, I think
> forgoing real bluewater capacity is the biggest "bang for the buck"
> compromise you can make. Once I let go of my bluewater ambitions,
the
> range of what I could actually build and enjoy now, and how much
> boatbuilding fun I could get for the money spent became
irresistible.
> If I had held on to the bluewater dream, I'd still be dreaming.
>
> I don't mean this to discourage anyone from dream of, or building a
> bluewater boat. Heavens forbid! But better a coastal/riverine boat
> now than a bluewater boat never. Besides, after you've build and
> enjoyed your BDS, Wyo, or even an I60 who says you can't burn it
and
> begin a LSII or Fiji!
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
> --
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296
Could it be built out of all steel?
Would all steel be better or simpler?
CJ
Would all steel be better or simpler?
CJ
>What I am thinking is that it may be useful to have an offshoreI don't know about the particulars of the above write's situation.
>design, even if one never goes offshore, rather than have a coastal
>cruiser that MIGHT be offshore capable. Then to have it fully capable
>as a basic liveaboard, even if one never lives aboard for very long.
>Also three of the areas where I would like to explore involve some
>river or canal travel as well, so motoring capability is almost as
>important as sailing, although speed is not an issue if the boat is
>seaworthy.
For him it might make sense to build a passage maker just incase he
ever decides to cross an ocean. But for the average person, I think
forgoing real bluewater capacity is the biggest "bang for the buck"
compromise you can make. Once I let go of my bluewater ambitions, the
range of what I could actually build and enjoy now, and how much
boatbuilding fun I could get for the money spent became irresistible.
If I had held on to the bluewater dream, I'd still be dreaming.
I don't mean this to discourage anyone from dream of, or building a
bluewater boat. Heavens forbid! But better a coastal/riverine boat
now than a bluewater boat never. Besides, after you've build and
enjoyed your BDS, Wyo, or even an I60 who says you can't burn it and
begin a LSII or Fiji!
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
--- "Nels" wrote:
argument with Badger, if your
home is your boat, and you are
comfortable at home, then what
is the hurry?
cost of an equivalent 'cabin on
the lake'.
Is $2 a pound a good guess?
Fiji estimate.
===============================================
Wood 3,500 Boardft $2.00 $7,000.00
Steel Plate 6,000 lbs $0.30 $1,800.00
Epoxy 400 Gallons 40.00 $16,000.00
Sails 1,140 SF $6.00 $6,840.00
Deutz FL1011 1 EA $4,000.00 $4,000.00
Sonic Outdrive 1 EA $3,000.00 $3,000.00
Carbonate 200 SF $10.00 $2,000.00
Masts 2 EA $1,000.00 $2,000.00
Tanks 8 EA $200.00 $1,600.00
Batteries 12 EA $75.00 $900.00
Lines 1,000 LF $0.50 $500.00
Pulleys 30 EA $10.00 $300.00
Electronics 1 LS $5,000.00 $5,000.00
===============================================
$50,940.00
@ displ. of 26,750lbs = $1.90/lb
> important as sailing, although speedThis is similar to Annie Hill's
> is not an issue if the boat is
> seaworthy.
argument with Badger, if your
home is your boat, and you are
comfortable at home, then what
is the hurry?
> I also understand that Fiji wouldThough, Fiji is probably half the
> cost twice as much to build as the
> AS29. Yet it is also twice as versatile.
cost of an equivalent 'cabin on
the lake'.
Is $2 a pound a good guess?
Fiji estimate.
===============================================
Wood 3,500 Boardft $2.00 $7,000.00
Steel Plate 6,000 lbs $0.30 $1,800.00
Epoxy 400 Gallons 40.00 $16,000.00
Sails 1,140 SF $6.00 $6,840.00
Deutz FL1011 1 EA $4,000.00 $4,000.00
Sonic Outdrive 1 EA $3,000.00 $3,000.00
Carbonate 200 SF $10.00 $2,000.00
Masts 2 EA $1,000.00 $2,000.00
Tanks 8 EA $200.00 $1,600.00
Batteries 12 EA $75.00 $900.00
Lines 1,000 LF $0.50 $500.00
Pulleys 30 EA $10.00 $300.00
Electronics 1 LS $5,000.00 $5,000.00
===============================================
$50,940.00
@ displ. of 26,750lbs = $1.90/lb
Thank you for your input. I will get my subscription in for MAIB
forthwith!
I view WDJ more as a camp cruiser rather than having full-time
liveaboard capabilities. And the Fiji cutwater design seems more
suitable than the AS29. Seems there would be less tendency for wave
slap at anchor. Also the sponsons (?) in the bow would assist the bow
in rising over waves would it not?
I did not realize that there is a navigator version of Seabird '86.
Does it have the Chinese gaff rig I wonder? I greatly admire this
design, but it is not easily trailered in my view. Also it would not
remain upright on a tidal flat.
What I am thinking is that it may be useful to have an offshore
design, even if one never goes offshore, rather than have a coastal
cruiser that MIGHT be offshore capable. Then to have it fully capable
as a basic liveaboard, even if one never lives aboard for very long.
Also three of the areas where I would like to explore involve some
river or canal travel as well, so motoring capability is almost as
important as sailing, although speed is not an issue if the boat is
seaworthy.
I also understand that Fiji would cost twice as much to build as the
AS29. Yet it is also twice as versatile. Having an offshore design
that is trailerable and can give the living capability of a small
fifth-wheel trailer, sure seems like a great combination!
Nels
forthwith!
I view WDJ more as a camp cruiser rather than having full-time
liveaboard capabilities. And the Fiji cutwater design seems more
suitable than the AS29. Seems there would be less tendency for wave
slap at anchor. Also the sponsons (?) in the bow would assist the bow
in rising over waves would it not?
I did not realize that there is a navigator version of Seabird '86.
Does it have the Chinese gaff rig I wonder? I greatly admire this
design, but it is not easily trailered in my view. Also it would not
remain upright on a tidal flat.
What I am thinking is that it may be useful to have an offshore
design, even if one never goes offshore, rather than have a coastal
cruiser that MIGHT be offshore capable. Then to have it fully capable
as a basic liveaboard, even if one never lives aboard for very long.
Also three of the areas where I would like to explore involve some
river or canal travel as well, so motoring capability is almost as
important as sailing, although speed is not an issue if the boat is
seaworthy.
I also understand that Fiji would cost twice as much to build as the
AS29. Yet it is also twice as versatile. Having an offshore design
that is trailerable and can give the living capability of a small
fifth-wheel trailer, sure seems like a great combination!
Nels
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > So any suggestions as to how we could design a perfect 26 foot
> > version of Fiji/Hasler? And what would we call it? Not Fijler nor
> > Hasji I hope!
>
> So any suggestions as to how we could design a perfect 26 footI feel certain that PB&F would start by suggesting the Jochems
> version of Fiji/Hasler? And what would we call it? Not Fijler nor
> Hasji I hope!
Schooner. Failing that, could there by a Navigator version of the AS-
29?
One of the progenitors of the AS-29 was a cat-rigged OSTAR boat. The
hull shape was somewhat like the AS-29, but lower-sided and with a
deep dagger keel. It was designed to keep the sailor mostly inside,
but with a small, deep cockpit in the stern.
There is the Navigator version of Seabird '86 which looks pretty nice
at 22'. I would guess it's capacity is much less than Hasler, but it
would be much faster under sail.
I just read the second installment of the MAIB multipart series on
Fiji. It is more clear in context that they anticipate many long
voyages will be under power only along calm routes. With a boat
designed for full power operation, windward performance is less of a
consideration.
Peter
Thanks Peter and everyone for your response to my query.
I certainly am attracted to this design and see it as part of trend
by PB&F's (Is there more than one Susanne I wonder?) that began with
the Micro Navigator. That is to have shoal draft, offshore
capability, all weather comfort and safety from an inside steering
station and all sail functions controlled from that location. (In
Fiji, even the ground tackle is!)
However I am still wondering about the idea of completely sealing a
hull, drilling holes into it to attach armor plating, and then
claiming that there are no through-hulls on the boat!
I would also like to thank Porky for posting the info on Colonel H.G.
Hasler in the Bolger 3 files. I find this design to be along the same
theme, yet it is to made entirely of steel.
Personally I prefer wood to steel. Fiji is too big for what I want
and the Colonel is too small. PB&Fs state in the CHGH write-up that
the original commission asked for a 16 footer but they felt that was
not possible, in order to have adequate storage and designed it 20'.
They also say it could easily be made longer and be faster and maybe
no more costly.
Therefor I am now wondering what would be required in my wish list if
I approached PB&Fs to design a longer colonel. Perhaps in the 24 to
30 foot range. What I would like would be to have a seperate
stateroom so two or more people could venture offshore and still have
some privacy and comfort when not sailing. Another requirement would
be for trailerability, although not often.
I am wondering if the I60 type of swinging keel might work on this
design, instead of the steel plate on the bottom. Does the I60 also
carry water ballest of does is use interior lead pigs?
I would also plan to leave all the fasteners in the bottom and
heavily glass over them. Is there a problem in doing this? To me
silicon bronze ring nails are an incredible fastener and seemed to
have fallen out of favor from when Dynamite used them. I believe they
where a major reason why he was able to use poysester resin rather
than epoxy.
So any suggestions as to how we could design a perfect 26 foot
version of Fiji/Hasler? And what would we call it? Not Fijler nor
Hasji I hope!
Nels (Dreaming of water in the center of the drought stricken
prairies)
I certainly am attracted to this design and see it as part of trend
by PB&F's (Is there more than one Susanne I wonder?) that began with
the Micro Navigator. That is to have shoal draft, offshore
capability, all weather comfort and safety from an inside steering
station and all sail functions controlled from that location. (In
Fiji, even the ground tackle is!)
However I am still wondering about the idea of completely sealing a
hull, drilling holes into it to attach armor plating, and then
claiming that there are no through-hulls on the boat!
I would also like to thank Porky for posting the info on Colonel H.G.
Hasler in the Bolger 3 files. I find this design to be along the same
theme, yet it is to made entirely of steel.
Personally I prefer wood to steel. Fiji is too big for what I want
and the Colonel is too small. PB&Fs state in the CHGH write-up that
the original commission asked for a 16 footer but they felt that was
not possible, in order to have adequate storage and designed it 20'.
They also say it could easily be made longer and be faster and maybe
no more costly.
Therefor I am now wondering what would be required in my wish list if
I approached PB&Fs to design a longer colonel. Perhaps in the 24 to
30 foot range. What I would like would be to have a seperate
stateroom so two or more people could venture offshore and still have
some privacy and comfort when not sailing. Another requirement would
be for trailerability, although not often.
I am wondering if the I60 type of swinging keel might work on this
design, instead of the steel plate on the bottom. Does the I60 also
carry water ballest of does is use interior lead pigs?
I would also plan to leave all the fasteners in the bottom and
heavily glass over them. Is there a problem in doing this? To me
silicon bronze ring nails are an incredible fastener and seemed to
have fallen out of favor from when Dynamite used them. I believe they
where a major reason why he was able to use poysester resin rather
than epoxy.
So any suggestions as to how we could design a perfect 26 foot
version of Fiji/Hasler? And what would we call it? Not Fijler nor
Hasji I hope!
Nels (Dreaming of water in the center of the drought stricken
prairies)
--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> Nels,
> Two possiblities for attachment;go as per the WEST system with
> holes drilled over size then plugged with epoxy and re-drilled to
> correct size or just drill a bit over size and use lots of 5200 to
> squeeze up and out of the bolt holes.
> I do not believe it would take all that many holes to secure
the
> bottom ballast plate.....certainly nothing compared to the number
of
> holes which are going to be drilled all over the place anyway just
to
> build the hull ie;laminating up that thickish,2 ply bottom calls
for
> many holes for fasteners which have to be pullled an plugged etc...
> A project this size requires signal minded stubborness to see
> through till the end and a willingness to perform tons of grunt
work
> over and over and over.........no easy way out unless you hire a
crew!
> So......are ya goin' ta build her or what? :-)
>
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,taking the Thanksgiving weekend off from WINDERMERE
> despite the nice weather,along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
>
>
Thanks Sam for the illuminating numbers! I(we) sure do look forward
to some slick photos of her in various poses.....do not forget to get
some delicious interior shots of her as well,with someone in the
picture to give a scale for the works.
Thanks again!
Peter Lenihan,obviously enjoying way too much time on the computer at
work.......heeeee haaaaa boss!
to some slick photos of her in various poses.....do not forget to get
some delicious interior shots of her as well,with someone in the
picture to give a scale for the works.
Thanks again!
Peter Lenihan,obviously enjoying way too much time on the computer at
work.......heeeee haaaaa boss!
--- In bolger@y..., Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@y...> wrote:
>
> With my 50 horse Yamaha four stroke (high thrust) run
> in, I can now give you some performance numbers for
> Topaz.
With my 50 horse Yamaha four stroke (high thrust) run
in, I can now give you some performance numbers for
Topaz. This is in "mph" (I assume statute) from the
Yamaha speedometer, driven by a pitot tube. The test
runs were in flat water, with about forty gallons of
fuel on board and a moderately light load:
At 2000 rmp she drives at 4mph.
At 2500 rpm she drives at 7. This is full dispacement
speed, with almost no wake.
At 3000 (half throttle) she runs at ten.
At 4000 she is runing at a semi-displacement 12. This
is about the top semi-displacement speed--as she comes
to 13 mph, her nose comes up (a little) and wake
increases (a little). This is very mild compared to,
say, a modified-v planing boat, but you can notice
some change of attitude.
By 5000, her nose drops (a little) and she is planing,
at 15 mph.
Turning 6000, she is running 20 mph.
I should emphasize that the whole
displacemt--semi-displacement--planing changoeover is
very mild--barely noticable unless you are looking for
it. The boat is well behaved, producing low wake
throughout its range. She tops out turning 6100rpm,
which is too high. Bolger recomends I go to a
higher-pitch prop at the same diameter. This should
increase the speed somewhat. I plan to cruise her at
12, but it is nice to be able to turn up 20, to beat a
thunderstorm, say, on a 31' boat with a 50 horse
motor. I'll try to post some pictures soon. I got a
few yesterday showing her attitude at various speeds. Sam
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
in, I can now give you some performance numbers for
Topaz. This is in "mph" (I assume statute) from the
Yamaha speedometer, driven by a pitot tube. The test
runs were in flat water, with about forty gallons of
fuel on board and a moderately light load:
At 2000 rmp she drives at 4mph.
At 2500 rpm she drives at 7. This is full dispacement
speed, with almost no wake.
At 3000 (half throttle) she runs at ten.
At 4000 she is runing at a semi-displacement 12. This
is about the top semi-displacement speed--as she comes
to 13 mph, her nose comes up (a little) and wake
increases (a little). This is very mild compared to,
say, a modified-v planing boat, but you can notice
some change of attitude.
By 5000, her nose drops (a little) and she is planing,
at 15 mph.
Turning 6000, she is running 20 mph.
I should emphasize that the whole
displacemt--semi-displacement--planing changoeover is
very mild--barely noticable unless you are looking for
it. The boat is well behaved, producing low wake
throughout its range. She tops out turning 6100rpm,
which is too high. Bolger recomends I go to a
higher-pitch prop at the same diameter. This should
increase the speed somewhat. I plan to cruise her at
12, but it is nice to be able to turn up 20, to beat a
thunderstorm, say, on a 31' boat with a 50 horse
motor. I'll try to post some pictures soon. I got a
few yesterday showing her attitude at various speeds. Sam
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
With my 50 horse Yamaha four stroke (high thrust) run
in, I can now give you some performance numbers for
Topaz. This is in "mph" (I assume statute) from the
Yamaha speedometer, driven by a pitot tube. The test
runs were in flat water, with about forty gallons of
fuel on board and a moderately light load:
At 2000 rmp she drives at 4mph.
At 2500 rpm she drives at 7. This is full dispacement
speed, with almost no wake.
At 3000 (half throttle) she runs at ten.
At 4000 she is runing at a semi-displacement 12. This
is about the top semi-displacement speed--as she comes
to 13 mph, her nose comes up (a little) and wake
increases (a little). This is very mild compared to,
say, a modified-v planing boat, but you can notice
some change of attitude.
By 5000, her nose drops (a little) and she is planing,
at 15 mph.
Turning 6000, she is running 20 mph.
I should emphasize that the whole
displacemt--semi-displacement--planing changoeover is
very mild--barely noticable unless you are looking for
it. The boat is well behaved, producing low wake
throughout its range. She tops out turning 6100rpm,
which is too high. Bolger recomends I go to a
higher-pitch prop at the same diameter. This should
increase the speed somewhat. I plan to cruise her at
12, but it is nice to be able to turn up 20, to beat a
thunderstorm, say, on a 31' boat with a 50 horse
motor. I'll try to post some pictures soon. I got a
few yesterday showing her attitude at various speeds. Sam
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
in, I can now give you some performance numbers for
Topaz. This is in "mph" (I assume statute) from the
Yamaha speedometer, driven by a pitot tube. The test
runs were in flat water, with about forty gallons of
fuel on board and a moderately light load:
At 2000 rmp she drives at 4mph.
At 2500 rpm she drives at 7. This is full dispacement
speed, with almost no wake.
At 3000 (half throttle) she runs at ten.
At 4000 she is runing at a semi-displacement 12. This
is about the top semi-displacement speed--as she comes
to 13 mph, her nose comes up (a little) and wake
increases (a little). This is very mild compared to,
say, a modified-v planing boat, but you can notice
some change of attitude.
By 5000, her nose drops (a little) and she is planing,
at 15 mph.
Turning 6000, she is running 20 mph.
I should emphasize that the whole
displacemt--semi-displacement--planing changoeover is
very mild--barely noticable unless you are looking for
it. The boat is well behaved, producing low wake
throughout its range. She tops out turning 6100rpm,
which is too high. Bolger recomends I go to a
higher-pitch prop at the same diameter. This should
increase the speed somewhat. I plan to cruise her at
12, but it is nice to be able to turn up 20, to beat a
thunderstorm, say, on a 31' boat with a 50 horse
motor. I'll try to post some pictures soon. I got a
few yesterday showing her attitude at various speeds. Sam
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
> How does the WDJ handle waves? Any problems tacking? Bjorn? Judge?Waves? Don't know. I have been out sailing five times so far. Every
time wind was week and waves absent.
Tacking? No problem. Even in next to no wind.
Bjørn
On Tuesday 15 October 2002 03:17, brucehallman wrote:
Benford, and he is also a little reticent about the junk rig. I
think his main concern was the weight of the thing, which is
certainly considerable. Can't remember what his preferred
rig was.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
> 1) PCB doesn't like the Eastern junkAs I recall, Annie Hill's book has an appendix authored by
> rig. Not sure why really, except
> something about 'flat plate'.
>
> I recall that Annie Hill counters, that
> the simplicity, IE the ability to
> handle single handed, and the safety
> factor [that large parts of it can
> fail, rot out, etc..] without the total
> sail being failed.
Benford, and he is also a little reticent about the junk rig. I
think his main concern was the weight of the thing, which is
certainly considerable. Can't remember what his preferred
rig was.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
>Also, the 'well glazed' house, IIt was hard for me to fully appreciate the effect of the "well glazed
>imagine would make Fiji a most
>enjoyable place to be in scenic
>anchorages. As opposed to the
>'port holes' of many other boats
>including Badger.
house" until I saw the Jochem's Schooner video. It's hardly great
film-making, but even still the effect of all those windows on
conditions 'below' is easy to see. Typical boats of that size are
caves by comparison. I'm very excited that the I60 has a similar
arrangement.
-D
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
--- "David Romasco" wrote:
recall two only two criticisms, which
I will attempt to repeat:
1) PCB doesn't like the Eastern junk
rig. Not sure why really, except
something about 'flat plate'.
I recall that Annie Hill counters, that
the simplicity, IE the ability to
handle single handed, and the safety
factor [that large parts of it can
fail, rot out, etc..] without the total
sail being failed.
PCB seems to have adopted and improved
the Badger junk rig here.
Quoting Boat Design Quarterly:
"Fiji's sailing rig...'combined
the low-stress sheeting and simple
reefing of the Eastern junk rig
with the better aerodynamics of
the of the Western gaff rig and
developed the Chinese gaff rig."
2) The depth of the Badger's keel.
Fiji's pivoting center board, solves
this problem at the expense of
a 'high profile'.
And perhaps at the expense of extra
more windage in a 'real blow' than
Badger. And, perhaps more difficultly
getting into and out of the boat from
a skiff at anchorage.
==
I also am still looking for a
Bolger Design which has as good
a layout as Badger for cooking
good food while at sea.
===
Also, the 'well glazed' house, I
imagine would make Fiji a most
enjoyable place to be in scenic
anchorages. As opposed to the
'port holes' of many other boats
including Badger.
Many people fear that the glazing
might pop out in a real storm, and
I recall SA defending against this
argument in letters published in MAIB,
a few years back. I am inclined to
believe her, but the truth would be
in the testing.
> Annie & Pete Hill's BadgerNow that you make me think, I
> a Jay Benford design
> I've heard the criticisms, ....
> crossing oceans just fine....
recall two only two criticisms, which
I will attempt to repeat:
1) PCB doesn't like the Eastern junk
rig. Not sure why really, except
something about 'flat plate'.
I recall that Annie Hill counters, that
the simplicity, IE the ability to
handle single handed, and the safety
factor [that large parts of it can
fail, rot out, etc..] without the total
sail being failed.
PCB seems to have adopted and improved
the Badger junk rig here.
Quoting Boat Design Quarterly:
"Fiji's sailing rig...'combined
the low-stress sheeting and simple
reefing of the Eastern junk rig
with the better aerodynamics of
the of the Western gaff rig and
developed the Chinese gaff rig."
2) The depth of the Badger's keel.
Fiji's pivoting center board, solves
this problem at the expense of
a 'high profile'.
And perhaps at the expense of extra
more windage in a 'real blow' than
Badger. And, perhaps more difficultly
getting into and out of the boat from
a skiff at anchorage.
==
I also am still looking for a
Bolger Design which has as good
a layout as Badger for cooking
good food while at sea.
===
Also, the 'well glazed' house, I
imagine would make Fiji a most
enjoyable place to be in scenic
anchorages. As opposed to the
'port holes' of many other boats
including Badger.
Many people fear that the glazing
might pop out in a real storm, and
I recall SA defending against this
argument in letters published in MAIB,
a few years back. I am inclined to
believe her, but the truth would be
in the testing.
Bruce,
Annie & Pete Hill's Badger is in fact a Jay Benford design (Benford 34
sailing dory). I've heard the criticisms, but Pete and Annie haven't
passed them along to Badger who, knowing no better, seems to carry on
crossing oceans just fine....
David Romasco
-----Original Message-----
From: brucehallman [mailto:brucehallman@...]
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:39 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
--- "Bruce Hector" wrote:
Let me chime in:
I want one!
[GIF's are best for 'line art' and
JPG's are best photographs.]
The sail rig reminds me of the
rig on Micro Navigator. Is this
sail rig a PB&F invention? Is
it included in the 102 Sailing
Rigs book?
The rig [and the boat] seems to
address the PCB criticism of Annie
Hill's Badger, PCB's long term ocean
crossing live-aboard sailboat.
The heavy stuff, batteries, fuel
tanks, water tanks, are stored
under the helm seat. I can't
read the notes, what is stored
under floor of the 'galley'
IE at stations 8 and 9?
How was the steel plate bottom
attached to the hull in the AS-29
re-design?
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Annie & Pete Hill's Badger is in fact a Jay Benford design (Benford 34
sailing dory). I've heard the criticisms, but Pete and Annie haven't
passed them along to Badger who, knowing no better, seems to carry on
crossing oceans just fine....
David Romasco
-----Original Message-----
From: brucehallman [mailto:brucehallman@...]
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:39 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
--- "Bruce Hector" wrote:
> BIG, full page scans of the FijiA million thanks, Bruce Hector.
> article from Boat Design Quarterly
> are in the Bolger 2 scans section,
> in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
Let me chime in:
I want one!
[GIF's are best for 'line art' and
JPG's are best photographs.]
The sail rig reminds me of the
rig on Micro Navigator. Is this
sail rig a PB&F invention? Is
it included in the 102 Sailing
Rigs book?
The rig [and the boat] seems to
address the PCB criticism of Annie
Hill's Badger, PCB's long term ocean
crossing live-aboard sailboat.
The heavy stuff, batteries, fuel
tanks, water tanks, are stored
under the helm seat. I can't
read the notes, what is stored
under floor of the 'galley'
IE at stations 8 and 9?
How was the steel plate bottom
attached to the hull in the AS-29
re-design?
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ADVERTISEMENT
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><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=212804.2460941.3878106.2225242/D=egroupweb/S=1705
065791:HM/A=810327/R=1/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs
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pmail/S=:HM/A=810327/rand=850654024>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- "Bruce Hector" wrote:
Let me chime in:
I want one!
[GIF's are best for 'line art' and
JPG's are best photographs.]
The sail rig reminds me of the
rig on Micro Navigator. Is this
sail rig a PB&F invention? Is
it included in the 102 Sailing
Rigs book?
The rig [and the boat] seems to
address the PCB criticism of Annie
Hill's Badger, PCB's long term ocean
crossing live-aboard sailboat.
The heavy stuff, batteries, fuel
tanks, water tanks, are stored
under the helm seat. I can't
read the notes, what is stored
under floor of the 'galley'
IE at stations 8 and 9?
How was the steel plate bottom
attached to the hull in the AS-29
re-design?
> BIG, full page scans of the FijiA million thanks, Bruce Hector.
> article from Boat Design Quarterly
> are in the Bolger 2 scans section,
> in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
Let me chime in:
I want one!
[GIF's are best for 'line art' and
JPG's are best photographs.]
The sail rig reminds me of the
rig on Micro Navigator. Is this
sail rig a PB&F invention? Is
it included in the 102 Sailing
Rigs book?
The rig [and the boat] seems to
address the PCB criticism of Annie
Hill's Badger, PCB's long term ocean
crossing live-aboard sailboat.
The heavy stuff, batteries, fuel
tanks, water tanks, are stored
under the helm seat. I can't
read the notes, what is stored
under floor of the 'galley'
IE at stations 8 and 9?
How was the steel plate bottom
attached to the hull in the AS-29
re-design?
> I do not believe it would take all that many holes to secure theOn the three layers of 1/2" plywood on the Wyo, I used silcon bronze
> bottom ballast plate.....certainly nothing compared to the number of
> holes which are going to be drilled all over the place anyway just to
> build the hull ie;laminating up that thickish,2 ply bottom calls for
> many holes for fasteners which have to be pullled an plugged etc...
ringshank boat nails and just left them in place. They are just soft enough
that a chiesel blade on my skill saw cuts right through them when I cut out
the shape. Maybe it's not too good for it but at $12.00 a blade, it cheaper
than pulling and filling 100's of fastener holes. I started with 7/8" on
the first layer and 1 3/8" on the second. Nothing shows through to the
inside.
> A project this size requires signal minded stubborness to seeI totally agree!
> through till the end and a willingness to perform tons of grunt work
> over and over and over.........no easy way out unless you hire a crew!
Jeff
Nels,
Two possiblities for attachment;go as per the WEST system with
holes drilled over size then plugged with epoxy and re-drilled to
correct size or just drill a bit over size and use lots of 5200 to
squeeze up and out of the bolt holes.
I do not believe it would take all that many holes to secure the
bottom ballast plate.....certainly nothing compared to the number of
holes which are going to be drilled all over the place anyway just to
build the hull ie;laminating up that thickish,2 ply bottom calls for
many holes for fasteners which have to be pullled an plugged etc...
A project this size requires signal minded stubborness to see
through till the end and a willingness to perform tons of grunt work
over and over and over.........no easy way out unless you hire a crew!
So......are ya goin' ta build her or what? :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,taking the Thanksgiving weekend off from WINDERMERE
despite the nice weather,along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
Two possiblities for attachment;go as per the WEST system with
holes drilled over size then plugged with epoxy and re-drilled to
correct size or just drill a bit over size and use lots of 5200 to
squeeze up and out of the bolt holes.
I do not believe it would take all that many holes to secure the
bottom ballast plate.....certainly nothing compared to the number of
holes which are going to be drilled all over the place anyway just to
build the hull ie;laminating up that thickish,2 ply bottom calls for
many holes for fasteners which have to be pullled an plugged etc...
A project this size requires signal minded stubborness to see
through till the end and a willingness to perform tons of grunt work
over and over and over.........no easy way out unless you hire a crew!
So......are ya goin' ta build her or what? :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,taking the Thanksgiving weekend off from WINDERMERE
despite the nice weather,along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
--- In bolger@y..., "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> Drilling all those holes into the bottom of a completely sealed
hull
> seems rather un-bolgeresque in my mind - but I guess it must need
the
> ballest and it has to be attached somewhere... Nels
> > ... plywood and expoxy are the material of choicesteel
> > for the boat? Then it is mentioned that she has a 1 inch thick
> > plate on the bottom. Does SA explain anywhere as to how thatplate is
> > attached. Seems like a fun project, or am I missing somethinghere?
>Thanks Timothy, This seems rather strange to me. It already has a two
> The plates are thru-bolted to the hull, and then the edges between
> plates as well as bolt holes and etc. are sealed with 5200.
>
> --Timothy
inch thick plywood and expoxy-glassed bottom... then to add a 1 inch
steel plate in addition seems like a major overkill to me. Does that
plate cover the entire bottom or is it referring to a keelson I am
wondering...
Drilling all those holes into the bottom of a completely sealed hull
seems rather un-bolgeresque in my mind - but I guess it must need the
ballest and it has to be attached somewhere... Nels
--- In bolger@y..., "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
plates as well as bolt holes and etc. are sealed with 5200.
--Timothy
> --- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:The plates are thru-bolted to the hull, and then the edges between
> > To see the pics and text just import the file to your favorite
> > publisher or art program and print it full size.
> >
> Thanks Bruce,
>
> According to that info, plywood and expoxy are the material of choice
> for the boat? Then it is mentioned that she has a 1 inch thick steel
> plate on the bottom. Does SA explain anywhere as to how that plate is
> attached. Seems like a fun project, or am I missing something here?
plates as well as bolt holes and etc. are sealed with 5200.
--Timothy
AF2 is unballasted. Could be a weight issue, certainly a momentum issue.
That's why I asked for input from people with experience with heavy
sharpies.
How does the WDJ handle waves? Any problems tacking? Bjorn? Judge?
That's why I asked for input from people with experience with heavy
sharpies.
How does the WDJ handle waves? Any problems tacking? Bjorn? Judge?
----- Original Message -----
From: "BANKS, Kevin" <kevin.banks@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
> AF2 is an un ballasted boat though isn't it? - Have you heard of Paradox,
> designed by Mat Layden? It's a heavily ballasted coastal cruiser and more
> information can be found about the boat on this site:
>http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/pictures.htm
> <http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/pictures.htm> . From what the site
> suggests this boat would eat 3' waves for breakfast and it is only 13'
long.
> Perhaps its only a weight issue then?
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Spelling [mailto:richard@...]
> Sent: 11 October 2002 07:09:PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
>
>
> <tools><internet options><advanced><multimedia>
> uncheck Enable Automatic Image Resizing.
>
> Best to download them and look at them in ACDC though.
>
> I don't know. Anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest that it would be
> quite fast. The WDJ has basicaly the same hull shape and outruns spinaker
> flying boats 10 feet longer downwind.
>
> Not to sure high aspect ratio sails are worth the trade offs. If you go
low
> aspect you can get quite a bit more area, and down lower, for a relativly
> minor tradeoff in efficiency.
>
> I'd be concerned with tacking in large waves, those hard chines on the
front
> will slow you down quite a bit. Or going to weather in big seas for that
> matter. My sharpie AF2 (fake boat) didn't like waves at all, and had a
hell
> off a time going to weather in waves over about 18". It was 20ft long.
FIJI
> is 40ft long, so might have issues in 3 ft waves? Someone with experiance
> with big heavy sharpies want to chime in?
>
> In contrast, my Chebacco LOVES big waves, and will outpoint keelboat
sloops
> in a F4 winds, a reef in, and three foot waves!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:00 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
>
>
> > > BIG, full page scans of the Fiji article from Boat Design Quarterly
> > > are in the Bolger 2 scans section, in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
> >
> > It's so freakin' aggrevatin' that my browser shrinks them to
> > illegibility. However, thanks for posting the lines.
> >
> > Am I the only one who thinks that this vessel is going have, shall we
> > say, very moderate performance under sail? It doesn't have any of the
> > characteristics of a fast, modern boat: deep keel, high aspect ratio
> > rig, low wetted surface. Rather, it seems to be designed with the
> > idea that it's worth spending a couple more days on a long passage in
> > order to have better year-round living conditions. A respectable
> > trade-off if you understand that you are making it. Long-range
> > voyagers spend more time in port than at sea.
> >
> > If you are downhill, looking at a 1000mi upwind passage, you just
> > might envy the guy next door in his William Crealock-designed 'race-
> > derived' sloop.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
> ...
> This email is for the intended addressee only.
> If you have received it in error then you must not use, retain,
disseminate
> or otherwise deal with it. Please notify the sender by return email.
> The views of the author may not necessarily constitute the views of
Astrium Limited.
> Nothing in this email shall bind Astrium Limited in any contract or
obligation.
>
> Astrium Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 2449259
> Registered Office: Gunnels Wood Road, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 2AS,
England
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
AF2 is an un ballasted boat though isn't it? - Have you heard of Paradox,
designed by Mat Layden? It's a heavily ballasted coastal cruiser and more
information can be found about the boat on this site:
http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/pictures.htm
<http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/pictures.htm> . From what the site
suggests this boat would eat 3' waves for breakfast and it is only 13' long.
Perhaps its only a weight issue then?
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Spelling [mailto:richard@...]
Sent: 11 October 2002 07:09:PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
<tools><internet options><advanced><multimedia>
uncheck Enable Automatic Image Resizing.
Best to download them and look at them in ACDC though.
I don't know. Anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest that it would be
quite fast. The WDJ has basicaly the same hull shape and outruns spinaker
flying boats 10 feet longer downwind.
Not to sure high aspect ratio sails are worth the trade offs. If you go low
aspect you can get quite a bit more area, and down lower, for a relativly
minor tradeoff in efficiency.
I'd be concerned with tacking in large waves, those hard chines on the front
will slow you down quite a bit. Or going to weather in big seas for that
matter. My sharpie AF2 (fake boat) didn't like waves at all, and had a hell
off a time going to weather in waves over about 18". It was 20ft long. FIJI
is 40ft long, so might have issues in 3 ft waves? Someone with experiance
with big heavy sharpies want to chime in?
In contrast, my Chebacco LOVES big waves, and will outpoint keelboat sloops
in a F4 winds, a reef in, and three foot waves!
designed by Mat Layden? It's a heavily ballasted coastal cruiser and more
information can be found about the boat on this site:
http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/pictures.htm
<http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/pictures.htm> . From what the site
suggests this boat would eat 3' waves for breakfast and it is only 13' long.
Perhaps its only a weight issue then?
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Spelling [mailto:richard@...]
Sent: 11 October 2002 07:09:PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
<tools><internet options><advanced><multimedia>
uncheck Enable Automatic Image Resizing.
Best to download them and look at them in ACDC though.
I don't know. Anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest that it would be
quite fast. The WDJ has basicaly the same hull shape and outruns spinaker
flying boats 10 feet longer downwind.
Not to sure high aspect ratio sails are worth the trade offs. If you go low
aspect you can get quite a bit more area, and down lower, for a relativly
minor tradeoff in efficiency.
I'd be concerned with tacking in large waves, those hard chines on the front
will slow you down quite a bit. Or going to weather in big seas for that
matter. My sharpie AF2 (fake boat) didn't like waves at all, and had a hell
off a time going to weather in waves over about 18". It was 20ft long. FIJI
is 40ft long, so might have issues in 3 ft waves? Someone with experiance
with big heavy sharpies want to chime in?
In contrast, my Chebacco LOVES big waves, and will outpoint keelboat sloops
in a F4 winds, a reef in, and three foot waves!
----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:00 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
> > BIG, full page scans of the Fiji article from Boat Design Quarterly
> > are in the Bolger 2 scans section, in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
>
> It's so freakin' aggrevatin' that my browser shrinks them to
> illegibility. However, thanks for posting the lines.
>
> Am I the only one who thinks that this vessel is going have, shall we
> say, very moderate performance under sail? It doesn't have any of the
> characteristics of a fast, modern boat: deep keel, high aspect ratio
> rig, low wetted surface. Rather, it seems to be designed with the
> idea that it's worth spending a couple more days on a long passage in
> order to have better year-round living conditions. A respectable
> trade-off if you understand that you are making it. Long-range
> voyagers spend more time in port than at sea.
>
> If you are downhill, looking at a 1000mi upwind passage, you just
> might envy the guy next door in his William Crealock-designed 'race-
> derived' sloop.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>
>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
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--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
According to that info, plywood and expoxy are the material of choice
for the boat? Then it is mentioned that she has a 1 inch thick steel
plate on the bottom. Does SA explain anywhere as to how that plate is
attached. Seems like a fun project, or am I missing something here?
Nels
> To see the pics and text just import the file to your favoriteThanks Bruce,
> publisher or art program and print it full size.
>
According to that info, plywood and expoxy are the material of choice
for the boat? Then it is mentioned that she has a 1 inch thick steel
plate on the bottom. Does SA explain anywhere as to how that plate is
attached. Seems like a fun project, or am I missing something here?
Nels
>Not to sure high aspect ratio sails are worth the trade offs. If you go lowPCB has written eloquently on the merit of judging the "efficiency"
>aspect you can get quite a bit more area, and down lower, for a relativly
>minor tradeoff in efficiency.
of a sail plan by area alone. Obviously by that criteria a high apect
ratio sail in more efficient (to weather) than a low aspect ration OF
THE SAME AREA.
However, high aspect ratio comes with attendant liabilities that
could be argued make is less efficient (in the over all scheme) than
if the same resources were to be applied without the (sometimes)
artificial limitation of area. For example, I expect that my I60 will
be faster per dollar spend than nearly any other boat of similar
carrying capacity.
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
To see the pics and text just import the file to your favorite
publisher or art program and print it full size.
Upwind, she might be a lot better than you expect with that sharpie
hull shape and good length to width ratio. She'll be a heck of a lot
more comfy than manning the tiller in most sloops. Instaed of hanging
on for dear life, squinting through salt caked eyelids and eating
spray you'd be warm, dry and sipping on your favorite libation,
probably a nautical hot chocolate.
Why you could raise your mug and wave at the poor sodden sloop
skipper slogging by with a half knot or so in hand.
publisher or art program and print it full size.
Upwind, she might be a lot better than you expect with that sharpie
hull shape and good length to width ratio. She'll be a heck of a lot
more comfy than manning the tiller in most sloops. Instaed of hanging
on for dear life, squinting through salt caked eyelids and eating
spray you'd be warm, dry and sipping on your favorite libation,
probably a nautical hot chocolate.
Why you could raise your mug and wave at the poor sodden sloop
skipper slogging by with a half knot or so in hand.
> The WDJ has basicaly the same hull shape and outruns spinakerI'm sure Figi will downwind pretty well, and I understand that REAL
> flying boats 10 feet longer downwind.
cruisers plan their trips to avoid upwind sailing. I just wanted to
make the point that IMHO this boat will be a pig upwind, especially
in big waves.
For alternatives, you might check out a couple boats by Tanton. See
#942 (page 7 of Drawings) and 895c (page 5b of Drawings).
http://www.tantonyachts.com/
Peter
<tools><internet options><advanced><multimedia>
uncheck Enable Automatic Image Resizing.
Best to download them and look at them in ACDC though.
I don't know. Anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest that it would be
quite fast. The WDJ has basicaly the same hull shape and outruns spinaker
flying boats 10 feet longer downwind.
Not to sure high aspect ratio sails are worth the trade offs. If you go low
aspect you can get quite a bit more area, and down lower, for a relativly
minor tradeoff in efficiency.
I'd be concerned with tacking in large waves, those hard chines on the front
will slow you down quite a bit. Or going to weather in big seas for that
matter. My sharpie AF2 (fake boat) didn't like waves at all, and had a hell
off a time going to weather in waves over about 18". It was 20ft long. FIJI
is 40ft long, so might have issues in 3 ft waves? Someone with experiance
with big heavy sharpies want to chime in?
In contrast, my Chebacco LOVES big waves, and will outpoint keelboat sloops
in a F4 winds, a reef in, and three foot waves!
uncheck Enable Automatic Image Resizing.
Best to download them and look at them in ACDC though.
I don't know. Anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest that it would be
quite fast. The WDJ has basicaly the same hull shape and outruns spinaker
flying boats 10 feet longer downwind.
Not to sure high aspect ratio sails are worth the trade offs. If you go low
aspect you can get quite a bit more area, and down lower, for a relativly
minor tradeoff in efficiency.
I'd be concerned with tacking in large waves, those hard chines on the front
will slow you down quite a bit. Or going to weather in big seas for that
matter. My sharpie AF2 (fake boat) didn't like waves at all, and had a hell
off a time going to weather in waves over about 18". It was 20ft long. FIJI
is 40ft long, so might have issues in 3 ft waves? Someone with experiance
with big heavy sharpies want to chime in?
In contrast, my Chebacco LOVES big waves, and will outpoint keelboat sloops
in a F4 winds, a reef in, and three foot waves!
----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:00 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
> > BIG, full page scans of the Fiji article from Boat Design Quarterly
> > are in the Bolger 2 scans section, in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
>
> It's so freakin' aggrevatin' that my browser shrinks them to
> illegibility. However, thanks for posting the lines.
>
> Am I the only one who thinks that this vessel is going have, shall we
> say, very moderate performance under sail? It doesn't have any of the
> characteristics of a fast, modern boat: deep keel, high aspect ratio
> rig, low wetted surface. Rather, it seems to be designed with the
> idea that it's worth spending a couple more days on a long passage in
> order to have better year-round living conditions. A respectable
> trade-off if you understand that you are making it. Long-range
> voyagers spend more time in port than at sea.
>
> If you are downhill, looking at a 1000mi upwind passage, you just
> might envy the guy next door in his William Crealock-designed 'race-
> derived' sloop.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
along either chilled in the cockpit or cooped up in a gloomy interior
while modern electronics steer the boat home.The view from the all
enclosed helm on the FIJI with all the comforts close at hand
(gimballed helm....yum yum) will be illuminating in more ways then
one. It is enough to make you wonder what those fellows in the
passing racing sloops might think when they catch a glimpse of you in
your comfy PJs sipping something warm and wet while sitting level
through the slog ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan.......
> If you are downhill, looking at a 1000mi upwind passage, you justYou just might envy him or feel sorry for the poor bugger slogging
> might envy the guy next door in his William Crealock-designed 'race-
> derived' sloop.
>
> Peter
along either chilled in the cockpit or cooped up in a gloomy interior
while modern electronics steer the boat home.The view from the all
enclosed helm on the FIJI with all the comforts close at hand
(gimballed helm....yum yum) will be illuminating in more ways then
one. It is enough to make you wonder what those fellows in the
passing racing sloops might think when they catch a glimpse of you in
your comfy PJs sipping something warm and wet while sitting level
through the slog ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan.......
> BIG, full page scans of the Fiji article from Boat Design QuarterlyIt's so freakin' aggrevatin' that my browser shrinks them to
> are in the Bolger 2 scans section, in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
illegibility. However, thanks for posting the lines.
Am I the only one who thinks that this vessel is going have, shall we
say, very moderate performance under sail? It doesn't have any of the
characteristics of a fast, modern boat: deep keel, high aspect ratio
rig, low wetted surface. Rather, it seems to be designed with the
idea that it's worth spending a couple more days on a long passage in
order to have better year-round living conditions. A respectable
trade-off if you understand that you are making it. Long-range
voyagers spend more time in port than at sea.
If you are downhill, looking at a 1000mi upwind passage, you just
might envy the guy next door in his William Crealock-designed 'race-
derived' sloop.
Peter
> Are we writing about boats, or is this a sociology treatise? Lord,Well, I really don't think it is at all fair to directly compare Phil
> how I miss the clear, cogent, insightful prose of PCB himself.
to Susan in terms of their writing style. Susan is a younger, German
woman and Phil is a New England raised man. Lots of differences there,
so although sure, the PB&F label is the reason people are doing this
(comparing them) I dont think it is fair or appropriate to directly
compare the two people together.
That being said, Susan can be awfully verbose. =)
As a side note, they have another plan.. it is near being finished..
called the TANDEM. It is FIJI type boat but stretched to 50' and is a
double masted schooner. Gorgeous boat. Has room for a 14' dink on the
back deck and has inboard power, and again, no thru hulls. Inboard
motor is connected to a simple outdrive. Truly a nifty concept.
--T
Uh-oh.....
a little voice in the back of my head is getting louder, with that oft-heard
cry on this list:
I want one.........
what a boat! Now I understand what all the commotion has been about here for
the past few days.
Paul Lefebvre
a little voice in the back of my head is getting louder, with that oft-heard
cry on this list:
I want one.........
what a boat! Now I understand what all the commotion has been about here for
the past few days.
Paul Lefebvre
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Hector [mailto:bruce_hector@...]
> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 10:53 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
>
>
> BIG, full page scans of the Fiji article from Boat Design Quarterly
> are in the Bolger 2 scans section, in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
BIG, full page scans of the Fiji article from Boat Design Quarterly
are in the Bolger 2 scans section, in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
are in the Bolger 2 scans section, in the file "Big Bolger Boats".
Maybe not, Bruce.... mine hasn't come yet either, and my wife knows those
are sacred, she wouldn't dare toss one, even an old one! I'm anxiously
looking for it so I, too, can see this new boat; but sometimes my MAIB's
come really late for no apparent reason...... a few times a year I seem to
get two at once, one on time, one two weeks late. Dunno why. Hang in there!
Paul Lefebvre
are sacred, she wouldn't dare toss one, even an old one! I'm anxiously
looking for it so I, too, can see this new boat; but sometimes my MAIB's
come really late for no apparent reason...... a few times a year I seem to
get two at once, one on time, one two weeks late. Dunno why. Hang in there!
Paul Lefebvre
> From: brucehallman [mailto:brucehallman@...]
>
> I suspect that my wife,
> once agin 'recycled' my copy
> of MAIB directly out of the
> mail box, before I could
> read it.
--- "s_paskey" wrote:
I suspect that my wife,
once agin 'recycled' my copy
of MAIB directly out of the
mail box, before I could
read it.
I would very much appreciate
a detailed description of
FIJI posted to this group.
> If someone will give...picture...Please!
> description of the boat
I suspect that my wife,
once agin 'recycled' my copy
of MAIB directly out of the
mail box, before I could
read it.
I would very much appreciate
a detailed description of
FIJI posted to this group.
Peter: Though you have a valid point, the tone of your message is a
bit too much. We're not talking about the length of SA's nose
hairs. We're talking about the fact that some of us find it d**mned
difficult to even TALK about the boat, because the illustrations in
MAIB are small and info about the boat and the thinking behind the
design is buried in the text.
If someone will give me larger pictures or a coherent description of
the boat, I'd be glad to talk about the boat.
bit too much. We're not talking about the length of SA's nose
hairs. We're talking about the fact that some of us find it d**mned
difficult to even TALK about the boat, because the illustrations in
MAIB are small and info about the boat and the thinking behind the
design is buried in the text.
If someone will give me larger pictures or a coherent description of
the boat, I'd be glad to talk about the boat.
--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> I really like FIJI,alot,for a whole slew of reasons but more
> importantly then that,I am really grateful that I am a no-body who
> does not have to earn my living through peddling my ideas/designs
to
> the masses.Yes indeed,I can remain invisible from the nit-picking
> critics who may find the length of my nose hairs not to their
liking
> and they may have a point there,but do they really have ta tell
> everyone 'bout it?
> Happier I would be if instead they would dive into his work and
> perhaps articulate crafty ways of bringing them into the third
> dimension!Now that would be something to see in the "photos"
section
> of this group,no?
> Anyway,no offense meant to anyone,just burping up my own
opinions
> like everyone else here ;-)
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan.......
I really like FIJI,alot,for a whole slew of reasons but more
importantly then that,I am really grateful that I am a no-body who
does not have to earn my living through peddling my ideas/designs to
the masses.Yes indeed,I can remain invisible from the nit-picking
critics who may find the length of my nose hairs not to their liking
and they may have a point there,but do they really have ta tell
everyone 'bout it?
Happier I would be if instead they would dive into his work and
perhaps articulate crafty ways of bringing them into the third
dimension!Now that would be something to see in the "photos" section
of this group,no?
Anyway,no offense meant to anyone,just burping up my own opinions
like everyone else here ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan.......
importantly then that,I am really grateful that I am a no-body who
does not have to earn my living through peddling my ideas/designs to
the masses.Yes indeed,I can remain invisible from the nit-picking
critics who may find the length of my nose hairs not to their liking
and they may have a point there,but do they really have ta tell
everyone 'bout it?
Happier I would be if instead they would dive into his work and
perhaps articulate crafty ways of bringing them into the third
dimension!Now that would be something to see in the "photos" section
of this group,no?
Anyway,no offense meant to anyone,just burping up my own opinions
like everyone else here ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan.......
Peter,
Our own John MacDaniel(sorry about the spelling) is doing an
Anti-spray....in steel.I believe the files section has more info on
his boat.
It sure would be nice,if he still checks in on us all,for a
photo up-date of his progress.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Our own John MacDaniel(sorry about the spelling) is doing an
Anti-spray....in steel.I believe the files section has more info on
his boat.
It sure would be nice,if he still checks in on us all,for a
photo up-date of his progress.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> Is Fiji the Anti-Spray?
Hi
One question: I take it that this is NOT the design commissioned by
Mike Stockstill that was discussed a week or two ago? Shine I think
it was called? I believe it was supposed to be a schooner.
Daniel Pike
Tromso, Norway
On a frosty Friday, with snow in the hills...
One question: I take it that this is NOT the design commissioned by
Mike Stockstill that was discussed a week or two ago? Shine I think
it was called? I believe it was supposed to be a schooner.
Daniel Pike
Tromso, Norway
On a frosty Friday, with snow in the hills...
Re: Fiji, A hell of a cruiser. I could almost give up on my dream
(Nightmare?) of a retirement aircraft carrier to build one as a
golden years cruiser and liveaboard. That Deutz diesel will power
central air for Pete's sake! She'd eat up anything the Great Circle
Route or the Carribean could throw at her and be able to cross the
pond and do those wonderfully endless European canals too! I must
confess, if she were mine, my wife would make sure any such crossing
would be a deck cargo on a freighter.
Re: Suzanne Altenburgers writing. Precluded by the observation that I
have not had the pleasure of meeting her and can only base any review
of her style solely on her work, writings and a telephone
conversation or two.
I love her work, enjoy her conversational style, appreciate her
engineering (and other forms) of influence on our hero, and revel in
the apparent joy PCB and she seem to find in each other. Phil
described her as a godsend and I'm thrilled to hear that they are
having a ball working their arses off. We all benefit from their
dynamo working jag. I suspect the nail was already hit on the head,
longer, strung together words and sentences are a unique German
tradition and curt, clipped speach is not.
I'll take the verbosity if that means a continued stream of
wonderfully thought out, unique and eminently practical designs for
me to drool over.
But you're right. Phil can state in one sentence what Suzanne fills a
paragraph with. I'd be happy to listen to either, SA would just
require a longer meeting, hopefuly over a stein or two of Becks and a
platter of Saurbraten.
(Nightmare?) of a retirement aircraft carrier to build one as a
golden years cruiser and liveaboard. That Deutz diesel will power
central air for Pete's sake! She'd eat up anything the Great Circle
Route or the Carribean could throw at her and be able to cross the
pond and do those wonderfully endless European canals too! I must
confess, if she were mine, my wife would make sure any such crossing
would be a deck cargo on a freighter.
Re: Suzanne Altenburgers writing. Precluded by the observation that I
have not had the pleasure of meeting her and can only base any review
of her style solely on her work, writings and a telephone
conversation or two.
I love her work, enjoy her conversational style, appreciate her
engineering (and other forms) of influence on our hero, and revel in
the apparent joy PCB and she seem to find in each other. Phil
described her as a godsend and I'm thrilled to hear that they are
having a ball working their arses off. We all benefit from their
dynamo working jag. I suspect the nail was already hit on the head,
longer, strung together words and sentences are a unique German
tradition and curt, clipped speach is not.
I'll take the verbosity if that means a continued stream of
wonderfully thought out, unique and eminently practical designs for
me to drool over.
But you're right. Phil can state in one sentence what Suzanne fills a
paragraph with. I'd be happy to listen to either, SA would just
require a longer meeting, hopefuly over a stein or two of Becks and a
platter of Saurbraten.
Stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really think. lol
CCG
s_paskey wrote:I bear no ill feelings toward SA either, but I still don't like
her writing. PCB does a wonderful job of describing the thinking
behind his designs. In my estimation, SA does not.
To each their own, I guess.
Steve
CCG
s_paskey wrote:I bear no ill feelings toward SA either, but I still don't like
her writing. PCB does a wonderful job of describing the thinking
behind his designs. In my estimation, SA does not.
To each their own, I guess.
Steve
--- In bolger@y..., "Norm Blitch" <normblitch@m...> wrote:
> Personally I agree that BOTH are both readable and
insightful....Frankly English is poor enough a language without
saying "Red" when what you REALLY meant was "Crimson"
>
> I bear NO ill feelings against SA
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My MAIB hasn't come, is FIJI aIs Fiji the Anti-Spray?
> sharpie like the AS series?
> With the Topaz/Sika Cruiser
> bow?
--- "Norm Blitch" wrote:
Yoko Ono.
My MAIB hasn't come, is FIJI a
sharpie like the AS series?
With the Topaz/Sika Cruiser
bow?
> As to the Yoko / SA comparison,For the record, I really like
> however, I MUST draw the line...
Yoko Ono.
My MAIB hasn't come, is FIJI a
sharpie like the AS series?
With the Topaz/Sika Cruiser
bow?
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
Susan can say in one long paragraph what Phil can say in one short
sentence.
> --- "s_paskey" qutoed/wrote:etc. etc.
>
> > "The widespread embrace of such
> > derivatives of both kinds is
Susan can say in one long paragraph what Phil can say in one short
sentence.
> Frankly English is poor enough a language without saying "Red"I have responses to several things brought up in this thread:
> when what you REALLY meant was "Crimson"
1) I assume that English is not SA's first language. I can sometimes
note the influence of French, Spanish or Italian in (other) English
writing, but I can't say that I can ferret out usage left over from
German (or Austrian or whatever). I assume that some of the
words/meanings/ideas strung together/in apostition is an English
version of the German art of building compound words. But the chief
characteristic is relentless arguement, meant to be logical but often
depending on unshared assumptions.
2) I don't completely agree that esthetics are improved in the later
designs, because some of the early designs are very beautiful indeed.
There is not much to improve on from the Defender dinghy or Kotick or
Prancing Pony. These are all traditional types. I partially agree in
that I see welcome organic forms in some of the top-end plywood
boats, e.g. Fiji and Double Eagle. (The work of James Wharram is in
the same vein.)
3) As for engineering, I really can't say, but it is worth noting
that PCB was a history major at a liberal arts college. (My Alma
Mater, in fact.) His engineering knowlege must be mostly on-the-job
training, and he did spend time with some good mentors. At the time
he started, most small boats weren't engineered much at all. There
were built by rule of thumb and comparison to something that worked.
He is clearly very intelligent and has applied himself, and I would
think there isn't much he doesn't know by now. I do agree that SA's
input seems to have widened the field with respect to engineering
ideas.
4) I can't see much similarity between John Lennon and PCB, although
I do understand the point being made in the comparison, and I agree
to some extent.
Peter
I bear no ill feelings toward SA either, but I still don't like
her writing. PCB does a wonderful job of describing the thinking
behind his designs. In my estimation, SA does not.
To each their own, I guess.
Steve
her writing. PCB does a wonderful job of describing the thinking
behind his designs. In my estimation, SA does not.
To each their own, I guess.
Steve
--- In bolger@y..., "Norm Blitch" <normblitch@m...> wrote:
> Personally I agree that BOTH are both readable and
insightful....Frankly English is poor enough a language without
saying "Red" when what you REALLY meant was "Crimson"
>
> I bear NO ill feelings against SA
Personally I agree that BOTH are both readable and insightful....Frankly English is poor enough a language without saying "Red" when what you REALLY meant was "Crimson"
As to the Yoko / SA comparison, however, I MUST draw the line...
I bear NO ill feelings against SA
<g>
Norm
As to the Yoko / SA comparison, however, I MUST draw the line...
I bear NO ill feelings against SA
<g>
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: brucehallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 10:24 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
I like the SA style of writing.
[I also like PCB's style.]
SA writes with 'a stream of consiousness'
and, yes, it is extra dense.
[like most poetry]
Her main point is the virtue of keeping:
"...the wide-open spaces of imagination..."
Which, I speculate, is the main appeal
of PCB and PB&F to most of us.
Perhaps, SA is to PCB like
Yoko Ono it to John Lennon? :)
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Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And you have to admit there has been a marked improvement in both asthetics
and engineering since PCB become PCB&F.
and engineering since PCB become PCB&F.
----- Original Message -----
From: "brucehallman" <brucehallman@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:24 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: New design -- #662, FIJI
> --- "s_paskey" qutoed/wrote:
>
> > "The widespread embrace of such
> > derivatives of both kinds is
> > understandable on the one
> > hand as comforting confines/
> > dictates within which designers,
> > builders, and ownes can orient
> > themselves much more readily,
> > since the small patch of area
> > between such confining walls
> > is easier to grasp, more
> > predictable in its limited
> > opportunities, than the wide-open
> > spaces of imagination pursuable
> > to match endless iterations of
> > personal cruising challenges
> > on wide open waters."
> >
> > Are we writing about boats, or is this a sociology treatise? Lord,
> > how I miss the clear, cogent, insightful prose of PCB himself.\
>
> May I chime in?
>
> I like the SA style of writing.
> [I also like PCB's style.]
>
> SA writes with 'a stream of consiousness'
> and, yes, it is extra dense.
> [like most poetry]
>
> Her main point is the virtue of keeping:
>
> "...the wide-open spaces of imagination..."
>
> Which, I speculate, is the main appeal
> of PCB and PB&F to most of us.
>
> Perhaps, SA is to PCB like
> Yoko Ono it to John Lennon? :)
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
It seems so.
brucehallman wrote:
brucehallman wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Perhaps, SA is to PCB like
> Yoko Ono it to John Lennon? :)
>
>
--- "s_paskey" qutoed/wrote:
I like the SA style of writing.
[I also like PCB's style.]
SA writes with 'a stream of consiousness'
and, yes, it is extra dense.
[like most poetry]
Her main point is the virtue of keeping:
"...the wide-open spaces of imagination..."
Which, I speculate, is the main appeal
of PCB and PB&F to most of us.
Perhaps, SA is to PCB like
Yoko Ono it to John Lennon? :)
> "The widespread embrace of suchMay I chime in?
> derivatives of both kinds is
> understandable on the one
> hand as comforting confines/
> dictates within which designers,
> builders, and ownes can orient
> themselves much more readily,
> since the small patch of area
> between such confining walls
> is easier to grasp, more
> predictable in its limited
> opportunities, than the wide-open
> spaces of imagination pursuable
> to match endless iterations of
> personal cruising challenges
> on wide open waters."
>
> Are we writing about boats, or is this a sociology treatise? Lord,
> how I miss the clear, cogent, insightful prose of PCB himself.\
I like the SA style of writing.
[I also like PCB's style.]
SA writes with 'a stream of consiousness'
and, yes, it is extra dense.
[like most poetry]
Her main point is the virtue of keeping:
"...the wide-open spaces of imagination..."
Which, I speculate, is the main appeal
of PCB and PB&F to most of us.
Perhaps, SA is to PCB like
Yoko Ono it to John Lennon? :)
Now, THAT, is a BOAT!
Wonder how much it would cost to build one?
Wonder how much it would cost to build one?
----- Original Message -----
From: "s_paskey" <s_paskey@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:30 PM
Subject: [bolger] New design -- #662, FIJI
| If you haven't yet seen it . . . the October 1 issue of MAIB has a
| four-page spread on with the final plans for FIJI (#662), a 40-foot
| long-distance cruiser with a chinese lug yawl rig.
|
| Love the drawings, but I haven't yet mustered the courage to
| plow through the utterly impenetrable text, which begins with a
| page or so of Suzanne's customary diatribe against the
| commercial boat-building industry. Sample sentence:
|
| "The widespread embrace of such derivatives of both kinds is
| understandable on the one hand as comforting confines/
| dictates within which designers, builders, and ownes can orient
| themselves much more readily, since the small patch of area
| between such confining walls is easier to grasp, more
| predictable in its limited opportunities, than the wide-open
| spaces of imagination pursuable to match endless iterations of
| personal cruising challenges on wide open waters."
|
| Are we writing about boats, or is this a sociology treatise? Lord,
| how I miss the clear, cogent, insightful prose of PCB himself.
|
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
Not my cup of tea, but interesting...
----- Original Message -----
From: "s_paskey" <s_paskey@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:30 PM
Subject: [bolger] New design -- #662, FIJI
| If you haven't yet seen it . . . the October 1 issue of MAIB has a
| four-page spread on with the final plans for FIJI (#662), a 40-foot
| long-distance cruiser with a chinese lug yawl rig.
|
All she's really trying to say (I think) is that designers, builders,
and buyers are more comfortable working with a limited set of
"standard" approaches than they are at trying to think outside the
box. (The two approaches she mentions are designs derived
from racing craft, and designs derived from traditional "working"
craft.)
and buyers are more comfortable working with a limited set of
"standard" approaches than they are at trying to think outside the
box. (The two approaches she mentions are designs derived
from racing craft, and designs derived from traditional "working"
craft.)
--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
>
> As to the sample sentence, I can't follow it. What is Suzanne
trying to say? Maybe it's just too late in the day, 13 hours at the
grindstone. YUK. But I agree, Phil's prose was never easy to
missunderstand.
Fiji is a beauty alright. There's scans (big 500KB)of the preliminary
study in the Yahoo eGroup Bolger2, file: Big Bolger Boats, sub file:
Fiji. Sorry about the size, best bet is to just print them and gawk.
As to the sample sentence, I can't follow it. What is Suzanne trying
to say? Maybe it's just too late in the day, 13 hours at the
grindstone. YUK. But I agree, Phil's prose was never easy to
missunderstand.
study in the Yahoo eGroup Bolger2, file: Big Bolger Boats, sub file:
Fiji. Sorry about the size, best bet is to just print them and gawk.
As to the sample sentence, I can't follow it. What is Suzanne trying
to say? Maybe it's just too late in the day, 13 hours at the
grindstone. YUK. But I agree, Phil's prose was never easy to
missunderstand.
If you haven't yet seen it . . . the October 1 issue of MAIB has a
four-page spread on with the final plans for FIJI (#662), a 40-foot
long-distance cruiser with a chinese lug yawl rig.
Love the drawings, but I haven't yet mustered the courage to
plow through the utterly impenetrable text, which begins with a
page or so of Suzanne's customary diatribe against the
commercial boat-building industry. Sample sentence:
"The widespread embrace of such derivatives of both kinds is
understandable on the one hand as comforting confines/
dictates within which designers, builders, and ownes can orient
themselves much more readily, since the small patch of area
between such confining walls is easier to grasp, more
predictable in its limited opportunities, than the wide-open
spaces of imagination pursuable to match endless iterations of
personal cruising challenges on wide open waters."
Are we writing about boats, or is this a sociology treatise? Lord,
how I miss the clear, cogent, insightful prose of PCB himself.
four-page spread on with the final plans for FIJI (#662), a 40-foot
long-distance cruiser with a chinese lug yawl rig.
Love the drawings, but I haven't yet mustered the courage to
plow through the utterly impenetrable text, which begins with a
page or so of Suzanne's customary diatribe against the
commercial boat-building industry. Sample sentence:
"The widespread embrace of such derivatives of both kinds is
understandable on the one hand as comforting confines/
dictates within which designers, builders, and ownes can orient
themselves much more readily, since the small patch of area
between such confining walls is easier to grasp, more
predictable in its limited opportunities, than the wide-open
spaces of imagination pursuable to match endless iterations of
personal cruising challenges on wide open waters."
Are we writing about boats, or is this a sociology treatise? Lord,
how I miss the clear, cogent, insightful prose of PCB himself.