Re: [bolger] Re: Inboard for Fiji and others
That's $3700, poor editing.
HJ
"Harry W. James" wrote:
HJ
"Harry W. James" wrote:
>
> I might not be getting this right but the sonic out drive is listed at
> around #3,700 at
>
>http://www.lancingmarine.com/sonic.html
>
> HJ
>
> jeff wrote:
> >
> > $7,000 to $15,000 for the outdrive only. Depending on how fancy you want to
> > get and size of HP attached.
> >
> > Susan A. tried to get me to look into one of these with the Wyo. They had
> > recently come out with the Tahiti design at the time using one of these
> > drives. They are nice but wow!
> >
> > Jeff
> >
I might not be getting this right but the sonic out drive is listed at
around #3,700 at
http://www.lancingmarine.com/sonic.html
HJ
jeff wrote:
around #3,700 at
http://www.lancingmarine.com/sonic.html
HJ
jeff wrote:
>
> $7,000 to $15,000 for the outdrive only. Depending on how fancy you want to
> get and size of HP attached.
>
> Susan A. tried to get me to look into one of these with the Wyo. They had
> recently come out with the Tahiti design at the time using one of these
> drives. They are nice but wow!
>
> Jeff
>
I am still far from convinced.
The Cat-1 Drive is for direct connection so there is an engine
placement issue remaining unless you use the Cat-2.
The cat-2 would require a transmission and supports up to 37 HP (far
under that of the Deutz in Fiji).
Prop aperture is severely limited to 14 inches (about equal to a 40
hp outboard)
There are baffles used in both systems to prevent water from entering
the universal joints required to allow steering and tilt.
There are also issues with mounting pad angles.
I cannot say they are any less labor intensive than any other
outdrive since I do not have first hand experience.
They are definitely not less maintenance than an outboard or direct
drive because of complexity.
As for the question of serviceability location it would depend on the
freeboard to the bottom of the mount. There must be a potential for
shaft leakage if they have double shaft seals (usually this simply
accomplishes sealing in water and not seeing the problem in the unit
oil).
I really don't see much advantage over similar outdrives
(functionally) they are for a different purpose (saildrives
basically) and I am sure sailors automatically believe things built
for them are of superior engineering and design but it just doesn't
hold.
I would not say that they are apples and oranges for sure.
Sometimes there is no good way to do a bad thing,
Ian
The Cat-1 Drive is for direct connection so there is an engine
placement issue remaining unless you use the Cat-2.
The cat-2 would require a transmission and supports up to 37 HP (far
under that of the Deutz in Fiji).
Prop aperture is severely limited to 14 inches (about equal to a 40
hp outboard)
There are baffles used in both systems to prevent water from entering
the universal joints required to allow steering and tilt.
There are also issues with mounting pad angles.
I cannot say they are any less labor intensive than any other
outdrive since I do not have first hand experience.
They are definitely not less maintenance than an outboard or direct
drive because of complexity.
As for the question of serviceability location it would depend on the
freeboard to the bottom of the mount. There must be a potential for
shaft leakage if they have double shaft seals (usually this simply
accomplishes sealing in water and not seeing the problem in the unit
oil).
I really don't see much advantage over similar outdrives
(functionally) they are for a different purpose (saildrives
basically) and I am sure sailors automatically believe things built
for them are of superior engineering and design but it just doesn't
hold.
I would not say that they are apples and oranges for sure.
Sometimes there is no good way to do a bad thing,
Ian
--- In bolger@y..., "mikestockstill" <mkstocks@b...> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> I took a close look at the sonic cat drive -- it is not at all like
the
> outdrive that you are describing (fortunately).
>
> You are right on about the issues of the Penta (Volvo's outdrive
> unit), Merc, etc.
> However, note from the specs on the cat drive (which I have read
> in addtion to viewing an installed model) that it remains entirely
> out of the water. There is NO water-tight integrity issue. Also,
> they do not limit the engine placement, as you can still use a
> long engine shaft going from the motor to the outdrive. They are
> not labor intensive. They do not need to be serviced on dry land -
> you can service them underway.
>
> Please take a look at the sonic cat drive literature and I think
you
> will agree that they are quite different from what you are
> assuming them to be.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> See you on the water.
>
> Mike
Hi -
I took a close look at the sonic cat drive -- it is not at all like the
outdrive that you are describing (fortunately).
You are right on about the issues of the Penta (Volvo's outdrive
unit), Merc, etc.
However, note from the specs on the cat drive (which I have read
in addtion to viewing an installed model) that it remains entirely
out of the water. There is NO water-tight integrity issue. Also,
they do not limit the engine placement, as you can still use a
long engine shaft going from the motor to the outdrive. They are
not labor intensive. They do not need to be serviced on dry land -
you can service them underway.
Please take a look at the sonic cat drive literature and I think you
will agree that they are quite different from what you are
assuming them to be.
Hope this helps!
See you on the water.
Mike
I took a close look at the sonic cat drive -- it is not at all like the
outdrive that you are describing (fortunately).
You are right on about the issues of the Penta (Volvo's outdrive
unit), Merc, etc.
However, note from the specs on the cat drive (which I have read
in addtion to viewing an installed model) that it remains entirely
out of the water. There is NO water-tight integrity issue. Also,
they do not limit the engine placement, as you can still use a
long engine shaft going from the motor to the outdrive. They are
not labor intensive. They do not need to be serviced on dry land -
you can service them underway.
Please take a look at the sonic cat drive literature and I think you
will agree that they are quite different from what you are
assuming them to be.
Hope this helps!
See you on the water.
Mike
--- In bolger@y..., "rsmboatbuilder" <isdkelly@c...> wrote:
> Outdrives also limit engine location and access. Delvin uses
> outdrives and saildrives in many of his designs and I think
that's
> nuts. Serviceability is the largest issue. I have quite a bit of
> experience replacing baffles on Volvo outdrives which are like
a CV
> joint cover to keep the water out. They are very cheap parts but
> take a huge amount of labor to replace, they also can last an
> incredibly short amount of time. Also they must be serviced on
dry
> land for the most part. This is untenable for a cruising boat.
With
> a inboard you have the ability to locate the engine where it is
> suited (Buehler has a few designs with the engine in the
forepeak)
> and the shaft need not align with the propeller and may be
entirely
> isolated as to ass an auxiliary somewhere near the primary
which can
> be attached to the shaft if failure occurs.
> There are about 50 other reasons related to prop size, exhaust
> location, etc etc etc
> I loved to see PCB embrace the Deutz its a great engine they
have a
> hand start model in the 40 hp range as well as two lines of air
> cooled engines. They also have individual cylinder heads so
they can
> be serviced separately. They are rated for continuous duty and
are
> used in mining and industrial applications boaters are always
scared
> off by the weight (about double that of a yanmar)
I take umbrage with the comment that Deutz air cooled engines are
louder than more common water cooled Yanmar models. In a properly
enclosed engine room/space/hold they are neither louder or quieter.
In fact compared to a 471 Detroit they have one forth the decibel
rating.
The 471's have incredible harmonics in their blower units that
cannot be silenced by normal means. By ducting the cooling air on the
Deutz with a series of baffles the noise is attenuated to normal
levels. The exhaust can have liquid induced to the flow on the Deutz
as long as time honored methods are followed to not back flood the
exhaust ports. This is another sound attenuation system for boats.
Admittedly the smaller the craft the more creative one must be but I
agree with PCB that the Deutz, dollar for dollar is the best choice
for this application on the market today.
I cannot say as much for the drive system, I prefer something more
simplistic that I won't have to buy 20 extra special tools to
service. The one criteria that my wife was adamant about was that I
could repair her car or other devices around our home before she
would consider marring me. I may not be a romantic but I can fix
almost anything and I am not afraid to tackle anything. That could be
a fault of mine. I do like the machines I place my families life on
to be simple and dependable. A vee drive or a drive shaft and even a
jet would be more acceptable for myself but I have strange tastes.
John
louder than more common water cooled Yanmar models. In a properly
enclosed engine room/space/hold they are neither louder or quieter.
In fact compared to a 471 Detroit they have one forth the decibel
rating.
The 471's have incredible harmonics in their blower units that
cannot be silenced by normal means. By ducting the cooling air on the
Deutz with a series of baffles the noise is attenuated to normal
levels. The exhaust can have liquid induced to the flow on the Deutz
as long as time honored methods are followed to not back flood the
exhaust ports. This is another sound attenuation system for boats.
Admittedly the smaller the craft the more creative one must be but I
agree with PCB that the Deutz, dollar for dollar is the best choice
for this application on the market today.
I cannot say as much for the drive system, I prefer something more
simplistic that I won't have to buy 20 extra special tools to
service. The one criteria that my wife was adamant about was that I
could repair her car or other devices around our home before she
would consider marring me. I may not be a romantic but I can fix
almost anything and I am not afraid to tackle anything. That could be
a fault of mine. I do like the machines I place my families life on
to be simple and dependable. A vee drive or a drive shaft and even a
jet would be more acceptable for myself but I have strange tastes.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "rsmboatbuilder" <isdkelly@c...> wrote:
> It's important to remember why they are louder. Most people think
> that they are loud because of the air used for cooling; this is
> actually false they are louder because they are nearly all dry
> exhaust. There is no wet exhaust used which would require a thru
> hull. By using baffle on the air intake and exhaust can cut down
the
> noise quite a bit and also can be directed away from the cabin, or
> used to heat the cabin itself.
>
> I also agree about Beuhler but I love his designs too they are just
> too big or a person of my means.
> Ian
>
> --- In bolger@y..., Jim Pope <jpope@a...> wrote:
> > Hi
> > The Deutz idea is a good one. PCB has gone to the use of air
> radiators on his own Resolution and they
> > seem to work out pretty well.
> > The only real objection to air cooled engines, diesels
especially,
> is that they are much noisier than
> > water cooled power plants. Sure, they need more ducting, but that
> can be arranged, and the complete
> > freedom from corrosive salt water anywhere in the system is a
> seriously good thing.
> >
> > Buehler's stuff has great appeal but I don't know how many folks
> will really like steaming at less
> > than full hull speed to achieve the range and economy he proposes.
> > Your thoughts on serviceability are right on the mark.
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > > With a inboard you have the ability to locate the engine where
it
> is
> > > suited (Buehler has a few designs with the engine in the
forepeak)
> > > and the shaft need not align with the propeller and may be
> entirely
> > > isolated as to ass an auxiliary somewhere near the primary
which
> can
> > > be attached to the shaft if failure occurs.
> > > There are about 50 other reasons related to prop size, exhaust
> > > location, etc etc etc
> > > I loved to see PCB embrace the Deutz its a great engine they
have
> a
> > > hand start model in the 40 hp range as well as two lines of air
> > > cooled engines. They also have individual cylinder heads so
they
> can
> > > be serviced separately. They are rated for continuous duty and
> are
> > > used in mining and industrial applications boaters are always
> scared
> > > off by the weight (about double that of a yanmar)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's important to remember why they are louder. Most people think
that they are loud because of the air used for cooling; this is
actually false they are louder because they are nearly all dry
exhaust. There is no wet exhaust used which would require a thru
hull. By using baffle on the air intake and exhaust can cut down the
noise quite a bit and also can be directed away from the cabin, or
used to heat the cabin itself.
I also agree about Beuhler but I love his designs too they are just
too big or a person of my means.
Ian
that they are loud because of the air used for cooling; this is
actually false they are louder because they are nearly all dry
exhaust. There is no wet exhaust used which would require a thru
hull. By using baffle on the air intake and exhaust can cut down the
noise quite a bit and also can be directed away from the cabin, or
used to heat the cabin itself.
I also agree about Beuhler but I love his designs too they are just
too big or a person of my means.
Ian
--- In bolger@y..., Jim Pope <jpope@a...> wrote:
> Hi
> The Deutz idea is a good one. PCB has gone to the use of air
radiators on his own Resolution and they
> seem to work out pretty well.
> The only real objection to air cooled engines, diesels especially,
is that they are much noisier than
> water cooled power plants. Sure, they need more ducting, but that
can be arranged, and the complete
> freedom from corrosive salt water anywhere in the system is a
seriously good thing.
>
> Buehler's stuff has great appeal but I don't know how many folks
will really like steaming at less
> than full hull speed to achieve the range and economy he proposes.
> Your thoughts on serviceability are right on the mark.
> Jim
>
>
> > With a inboard you have the ability to locate the engine where it
is
> > suited (Buehler has a few designs with the engine in the forepeak)
> > and the shaft need not align with the propeller and may be
entirely
> > isolated as to ass an auxiliary somewhere near the primary which
can
> > be attached to the shaft if failure occurs.
> > There are about 50 other reasons related to prop size, exhaust
> > location, etc etc etc
> > I loved to see PCB embrace the Deutz its a great engine they have
a
> > hand start model in the 40 hp range as well as two lines of air
> > cooled engines. They also have individual cylinder heads so they
can
> > be serviced separately. They are rated for continuous duty and
are
> > used in mining and industrial applications boaters are always
scared
> > off by the weight (about double that of a yanmar)
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi
The Deutz idea is a good one. PCB has gone to the use of air radiators on his own Resolution and they
seem to work out pretty well.
The only real objection to air cooled engines, diesels especially, is that they are much noisier than
water cooled power plants. Sure, they need more ducting, but that can be arranged, and the complete
freedom from corrosive salt water anywhere in the system is a seriously good thing.
Buehler's stuff has great appeal but I don't know how many folks will really like steaming at less
than full hull speed to achieve the range and economy he proposes.
Your thoughts on serviceability are right on the mark.
Jim
The Deutz idea is a good one. PCB has gone to the use of air radiators on his own Resolution and they
seem to work out pretty well.
The only real objection to air cooled engines, diesels especially, is that they are much noisier than
water cooled power plants. Sure, they need more ducting, but that can be arranged, and the complete
freedom from corrosive salt water anywhere in the system is a seriously good thing.
Buehler's stuff has great appeal but I don't know how many folks will really like steaming at less
than full hull speed to achieve the range and economy he proposes.
Your thoughts on serviceability are right on the mark.
Jim
> With a inboard you have the ability to locate the engine where it is[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> suited (Buehler has a few designs with the engine in the forepeak)
> and the shaft need not align with the propeller and may be entirely
> isolated as to ass an auxiliary somewhere near the primary which can
> be attached to the shaft if failure occurs.
> There are about 50 other reasons related to prop size, exhaust
> location, etc etc etc
> I loved to see PCB embrace the Deutz its a great engine they have a
> hand start model in the 40 hp range as well as two lines of air
> cooled engines. They also have individual cylinder heads so they can
> be serviced separately. They are rated for continuous duty and are
> used in mining and industrial applications boaters are always scared
> off by the weight (about double that of a yanmar)
>
>
Outdrives also limit engine location and access. Delvin uses
outdrives and saildrives in many of his designs and I think that's
nuts. Serviceability is the largest issue. I have quite a bit of
experience replacing baffles on Volvo outdrives which are like a CV
joint cover to keep the water out. They are very cheap parts but
take a huge amount of labor to replace, they also can last an
incredibly short amount of time. Also they must be serviced on dry
land for the most part. This is untenable for a cruising boat. With
a inboard you have the ability to locate the engine where it is
suited (Buehler has a few designs with the engine in the forepeak)
and the shaft need not align with the propeller and may be entirely
isolated as to ass an auxiliary somewhere near the primary which can
be attached to the shaft if failure occurs.
There are about 50 other reasons related to prop size, exhaust
location, etc etc etc
I loved to see PCB embrace the Deutz its a great engine they have a
hand start model in the 40 hp range as well as two lines of air
cooled engines. They also have individual cylinder heads so they can
be serviced separately. They are rated for continuous duty and are
used in mining and industrial applications boaters are always scared
off by the weight (about double that of a yanmar)
outdrives and saildrives in many of his designs and I think that's
nuts. Serviceability is the largest issue. I have quite a bit of
experience replacing baffles on Volvo outdrives which are like a CV
joint cover to keep the water out. They are very cheap parts but
take a huge amount of labor to replace, they also can last an
incredibly short amount of time. Also they must be serviced on dry
land for the most part. This is untenable for a cruising boat. With
a inboard you have the ability to locate the engine where it is
suited (Buehler has a few designs with the engine in the forepeak)
and the shaft need not align with the propeller and may be entirely
isolated as to ass an auxiliary somewhere near the primary which can
be attached to the shaft if failure occurs.
There are about 50 other reasons related to prop size, exhaust
location, etc etc etc
I loved to see PCB embrace the Deutz its a great engine they have a
hand start model in the 40 hp range as well as two lines of air
cooled engines. They also have individual cylinder heads so they can
be serviced separately. They are rated for continuous duty and are
used in mining and industrial applications boaters are always scared
off by the weight (about double that of a yanmar)
$7,000 to $15,000 for the outdrive only. Depending on how fancy you want to
get and size of HP attached.
Susan A. tried to get me to look into one of these with the Wyo. They had
recently come out with the Tahiti design at the time using one of these
drives. They are nice but wow!
Jeff
get and size of HP attached.
Susan A. tried to get me to look into one of these with the Wyo. They had
recently come out with the Tahiti design at the time using one of these
drives. They are nice but wow!
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "gem54" <gem54@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:06 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Inboard for Fiji and others
> I would love to know how much they cost. It is always nice to have
> some idea how much money my dreams will require.
>
> GME
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Justin Meddock" <jmeddock@n...> wrote:
> > Is there a website for the diesel/outdrive combo used in the recent
> PCB
> > designs?
> >
> >
> > Justin
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
I would love to know how much they cost. It is always nice to have
some idea how much money my dreams will require.
GME
some idea how much money my dreams will require.
GME
--- In bolger@y..., "Justin Meddock" <jmeddock@n...> wrote:
> Is there a website for the diesel/outdrive combo used in the recent
PCB
> designs?
>
>
> Justin
Yes - see
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~minards/sonicm.html
Mike
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~minards/sonicm.html
Mike
--- In bolger@y..., "Justin Meddock" <jmeddock@n...> wrote:
> Is there a website for the diesel/outdrive combo used in the
recent PCB
> designs?
>
>
> Justin
Is there a website for the diesel/outdrive combo used in the recent PCB
designs?
Justin
designs?
Justin