Re: Laminating Materials - Which one and Why?
Well, actually we're talking at least .076". If the wood weighs 35
lbs/ft^3 and the boat uses 2.5 sheets (4 sheets minus waste?), that's
about 18 more pounds to pick up and put on top of the car. Or else I
have to make my boat smaller. And sometimes my back is not as happy as
at others. Then of course there's probably a couple of more pounds due
to extra goo in the joints and such.
I don't want to go to a trailer as there will be less limit to my
idiocy and less ability to launch anyplace.
Other factor is, the lighter it is, the bigger I can make it (within
reason).
I think 5/16 MDO would be great for a folding schooner or something.
I don't get you about the luan. Usual luan will have inadequate
surface plies anyway. I know this from experience, actually.
Not sure what you mean about the 2 luan sheets.
lbs/ft^3 and the boat uses 2.5 sheets (4 sheets minus waste?), that's
about 18 more pounds to pick up and put on top of the car. Or else I
have to make my boat smaller. And sometimes my back is not as happy as
at others. Then of course there's probably a couple of more pounds due
to extra goo in the joints and such.
I don't want to go to a trailer as there will be less limit to my
idiocy and less ability to launch anyplace.
Other factor is, the lighter it is, the bigger I can make it (within
reason).
I think 5/16 MDO would be great for a folding schooner or something.
I don't get you about the luan. Usual luan will have inadequate
surface plies anyway. I know this from experience, actually.
Not sure what you mean about the 2 luan sheets.
--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> Lincoln,
> You're right Lincoln but then again were only taking 1/16 of
> an inch difference.
> Small then that,I would be tempted to laminate 2 luan sheets
> to get the required stiffness.......that is unless you are building
> something really really techy that requires that you stick to a very
> very narrow spec sheet.
> So,tell us what you're up to with the 5 or 6 mm ply
> anyway....airplanes? :-)
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> (I WISH they made 5 or 6mm MDO) (no,
> > Peter, I checked with those people and they only go to 5/16").
> >
In reply to HJ's last message, which was removed for space, saving.
Perfect! Thanks this is exactly what I was looking for. I have a
subscription to boatbuilder but never received that issue. Diablo
Grande is a taped seam boat and I think you have helped me solve my
dilemma. So here is my plan: I will use a 4oz-6oz glass layer over
the entire hull exterior, then use Xynol on the flat bottom and first
chine, above that I will use 7.5oz fiberglass over the previous
fiberglass coat. As for the exotics I will leave that to the kayak
guys!
Thanks to everyone who helped out!
Perfect! Thanks this is exactly what I was looking for. I have a
subscription to boatbuilder but never received that issue. Diablo
Grande is a taped seam boat and I think you have helped me solve my
dilemma. So here is my plan: I will use a 4oz-6oz glass layer over
the entire hull exterior, then use Xynol on the flat bottom and first
chine, above that I will use 7.5oz fiberglass over the previous
fiberglass coat. As for the exotics I will leave that to the kayak
guys!
Thanks to everyone who helped out!
Lincoln,
You're right Lincoln but then again were only taking 1/16 of
an inch difference.
Small then that,I would be tempted to laminate 2 luan sheets
to get the required stiffness.......that is unless you are building
something really really techy that requires that you stick to a very
very narrow spec sheet.
So,tell us what you're up to with the 5 or 6 mm ply
anyway....airplanes? :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
You're right Lincoln but then again were only taking 1/16 of
an inch difference.
Small then that,I would be tempted to laminate 2 luan sheets
to get the required stiffness.......that is unless you are building
something really really techy that requires that you stick to a very
very narrow spec sheet.
So,tell us what you're up to with the 5 or 6 mm ply
anyway....airplanes? :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
(I WISH they made 5 or 6mm MDO) (no,
> Peter, I checked with those people and they only go to 5/16").
>
First some opinion
There are three reasons to put fabric and resin on wood.
First: Protect the wood from abrasion.
Second: Seal out moisture, the resin seals the wood and the fabric
stabilizes the surface so the resin layer is less likely to be broken
allowing moisture in.
Third: As a part of the structure, used across seams and joints to hold
them together, as in stitch and glue.
Here is a summary of he article in Boatbuilding.
The author is the builder of the cover boat in the 1 Oct issue of MAIB,
Tom Lathrop
He tested Plain epoxy, 9 oz fiberglass, 2 layers of 9 oz fiberglass,
Dynel, Vectra and Xynole. He tested for abrasion resistance and peel
strength.
He used a disk sander for his abrasion source set up in a very clever
automatic set up. He had an equally clever set up involving a Jack and
bathroom scale for the test. I won't go into details of the testing
apparatus, I think they produced valid results.
Here are the results of the abrasion test relative to 9 oz fiberglass.
Plain epoxy .59
9 oz fiberglass 1
2x 9 oz fiberglass 2
Vectra 2.3
Dynel 3.8
Xynole 6.6
Peel Strength
Dynel Unable to measure, peeled too easy
Fiberglass 60
Vectra 65
Xynole Around 225
He concluded that peel strength depends on mechanical bonding and Xynole
does so well because of its fuzzy nature providing lots of opportunity
for the epoxy to surround Xynole fibers.
I have found and I have read other anecdotal evidence that says if you
don't fill fiberglass weave with a second coat soon after laying it down
for a chemical epoxy bond through the whole matrix, fiberglass peels
easily. Its essential to get the epoxy connecting through the fabric.
My conclusions paralleling some of his but mostly my OPINIONS.
- Xynole for the bottom always, unless weight is really a concern.
Vectra or fiberglass on the topsides because of ease of finishing. All
the fabrics are easier to handle than fiberglass according to Mr.
Lathrop.
Fiberglass (higher strength) for joints, as long as you can get a good
bond.
The exotics, Kevlar and Carbon.
I think that Kevlar has even greater abrasion resistance than Xynole at
least its reputation says so (never used it). Its cost and difficulty of
use make Xynole a better choice in my book.
Carbon is used primarily for strength addition and is also very
expensive.
There you have it, food for thought and discussion. Mr. Lathrop deserves
a lot of credit for some ingenious and informative research.
HJ
:Thanks for the response, I really expected a flood of replies but
There are three reasons to put fabric and resin on wood.
First: Protect the wood from abrasion.
Second: Seal out moisture, the resin seals the wood and the fabric
stabilizes the surface so the resin layer is less likely to be broken
allowing moisture in.
Third: As a part of the structure, used across seams and joints to hold
them together, as in stitch and glue.
Here is a summary of he article in Boatbuilding.
The author is the builder of the cover boat in the 1 Oct issue of MAIB,
Tom Lathrop
He tested Plain epoxy, 9 oz fiberglass, 2 layers of 9 oz fiberglass,
Dynel, Vectra and Xynole. He tested for abrasion resistance and peel
strength.
He used a disk sander for his abrasion source set up in a very clever
automatic set up. He had an equally clever set up involving a Jack and
bathroom scale for the test. I won't go into details of the testing
apparatus, I think they produced valid results.
Here are the results of the abrasion test relative to 9 oz fiberglass.
Plain epoxy .59
9 oz fiberglass 1
2x 9 oz fiberglass 2
Vectra 2.3
Dynel 3.8
Xynole 6.6
Peel Strength
Dynel Unable to measure, peeled too easy
Fiberglass 60
Vectra 65
Xynole Around 225
He concluded that peel strength depends on mechanical bonding and Xynole
does so well because of its fuzzy nature providing lots of opportunity
for the epoxy to surround Xynole fibers.
I have found and I have read other anecdotal evidence that says if you
don't fill fiberglass weave with a second coat soon after laying it down
for a chemical epoxy bond through the whole matrix, fiberglass peels
easily. Its essential to get the epoxy connecting through the fabric.
My conclusions paralleling some of his but mostly my OPINIONS.
- Xynole for the bottom always, unless weight is really a concern.
Vectra or fiberglass on the topsides because of ease of finishing. All
the fabrics are easier to handle than fiberglass according to Mr.
Lathrop.
Fiberglass (higher strength) for joints, as long as you can get a good
bond.
The exotics, Kevlar and Carbon.
I think that Kevlar has even greater abrasion resistance than Xynole at
least its reputation says so (never used it). Its cost and difficulty of
use make Xynole a better choice in my book.
Carbon is used primarily for strength addition and is also very
expensive.
There you have it, food for thought and discussion. Mr. Lathrop deserves
a lot of credit for some ingenious and informative research.
HJ
:Thanks for the response, I really expected a flood of replies but
> haven't seen many. I will be building with plywood but I will be
> covering with epoxy and a laminate of some kind everything from
> regular fiberglass cloth to graphite, Dynel, Kevlar, etc are in the
> running.
> I wanted opinions or real data on what the cloths offer and why they
> should be used etc.
> Thanks!
> Ian
> .
Judging by what others have said, you might consider MDO plywood for
most of the boat. You'll already have a nice finish there, and it
will save a lot of work glassing. For sections that will be heavily
abraded, there's a lot to be said for 6 oz glass (not necessarily only
one layer). It's not too hard to apply, especially on the flat, nor is
it all that expensive. I bet on the flat you could overlay with heavy
polyethylene sheet (to peel off later) for a nice finish. You might
consider glassing the pieces flat before assembly, maybe using some
kind of tape to keep the outer 1 or 1.5" clear of glass. E glass is
strong, tough cheap and available. If you plan right, maybe you can
keep from sanding it much. An acquaintance who builds boats in molds
uses non-woven veil cloth as the outer layer, I guess to prevent
"print thru" or whatever you call it, where the weave of the cloth
becomes visible eventually. Probably easier than the 1 oz cloth I use
on plywood to prevent checking (I WISH they made 5 or 6mm MDO) (no,
Peter, I checked with those people and they only go to 5/16").
Is Diabolo Grande a taped seam boat? This will be the trickiest part
to make smooth. Maybe you can overlay with polyethylene to smooth out?
Rubber sheet? Peel ply? It takes a lot of filler, sanding, and work
to make these seams look good if you don't use some kind of trick
(which I haven't tried yet).]
BTW, I think e glass tapes will lay down around corners easier than
S-glass, tho S-glass is somewhat stronger and stiffer. DOn't use
graphite and kevlar if you don't need structural properties. Kevlar is
NOTORIUS for fuzzing up when sanding.
most of the boat. You'll already have a nice finish there, and it
will save a lot of work glassing. For sections that will be heavily
abraded, there's a lot to be said for 6 oz glass (not necessarily only
one layer). It's not too hard to apply, especially on the flat, nor is
it all that expensive. I bet on the flat you could overlay with heavy
polyethylene sheet (to peel off later) for a nice finish. You might
consider glassing the pieces flat before assembly, maybe using some
kind of tape to keep the outer 1 or 1.5" clear of glass. E glass is
strong, tough cheap and available. If you plan right, maybe you can
keep from sanding it much. An acquaintance who builds boats in molds
uses non-woven veil cloth as the outer layer, I guess to prevent
"print thru" or whatever you call it, where the weave of the cloth
becomes visible eventually. Probably easier than the 1 oz cloth I use
on plywood to prevent checking (I WISH they made 5 or 6mm MDO) (no,
Peter, I checked with those people and they only go to 5/16").
Is Diabolo Grande a taped seam boat? This will be the trickiest part
to make smooth. Maybe you can overlay with polyethylene to smooth out?
Rubber sheet? Peel ply? It takes a lot of filler, sanding, and work
to make these seams look good if you don't use some kind of trick
(which I haven't tried yet).]
BTW, I think e glass tapes will lay down around corners easier than
S-glass, tho S-glass is somewhat stronger and stiffer. DOn't use
graphite and kevlar if you don't need structural properties. Kevlar is
NOTORIUS for fuzzing up when sanding.
--- In bolger@y..., "rsmboatbuilder" <isdkelly@c...> wrote:
> I am assembling the pieces to build a Diablo Grande where the plan
is
> to produce a highly finished strong hull but I am not overly
> concerned about weight. I simply want a strong glossy hull finish
> that will stand trailering and beaching.
snip
> The runners up are Dynel, Vectracloth, Xynole, Olfin Spun
> Polypropylene, E-glass, and S-Glass. Also would like to know about
> the exotics Graphite, Kevlar, etc. E-Glass and S-glass are said to
> be very different but I have held both and can't see it. Dynel seems
> interesting but I have no experience with it. Vectra, Xynole, and
> Olfin are strange but really cheap so that interests me. Also they
> are available in very wide widths (60"). I know this is most likely
> a can of worms and I may not be able to arrive at a real answer but
snip
Why are you shying away from Fiberglas? It comes in diff. gauges.
CCG
rsmboatbuilder <isdkelly@...> wrote:Thanks for the response, I really expected a flood of replies but
haven't seen many. I will be building with plywood but I will be
covering with epoxy and a laminate of some kind everything from
regular fiberglass cloth to graphite, Dynel, Kevlar, etc are in the
running.
I wanted opinions or real data on what the cloths offer and why they
should be used etc.
Thanks!
Ian
CCG
rsmboatbuilder <isdkelly@...> wrote:Thanks for the response, I really expected a flood of replies but
haven't seen many. I will be building with plywood but I will be
covering with epoxy and a laminate of some kind everything from
regular fiberglass cloth to graphite, Dynel, Kevlar, etc are in the
running.
I wanted opinions or real data on what the cloths offer and why they
should be used etc.
Thanks!
Ian
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
>
> The Glen-L Plans site has a link to a materal site too. It looks
like it would take a compound bend better than plywood, but boy would
it soak up the epoxy. It would be very heavy, but not being organic
it would never rot.
> CCG
> "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:What are you after,
appearance, durability or strength. In the latest
> Boatbuilder there is a very good article from a homebuilder that
tested
> several of these. I have been meaning to summarize, as he had some
very
> interesting results, hopefully have time tomorrow.
>
> HJ
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for the response, I really expected a flood of replies but
haven't seen many. I will be building with plywood but I will be
covering with epoxy and a laminate of some kind everything from
regular fiberglass cloth to graphite, Dynel, Kevlar, etc are in the
running.
I wanted opinions or real data on what the cloths offer and why they
should be used etc.
Thanks!
Ian
haven't seen many. I will be building with plywood but I will be
covering with epoxy and a laminate of some kind everything from
regular fiberglass cloth to graphite, Dynel, Kevlar, etc are in the
running.
I wanted opinions or real data on what the cloths offer and why they
should be used etc.
Thanks!
Ian
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
>
> The Glen-L Plans site has a link to a materal site too. It looks
like it would take a compound bend better than plywood, but boy would
it soak up the epoxy. It would be very heavy, but not being organic
it would never rot.
> CCG
> "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:What are you after,
appearance, durability or strength. In the latest
> Boatbuilder there is a very good article from a homebuilder that
tested
> several of these. I have been meaning to summarize, as he had some
very
> interesting results, hopefully have time tomorrow.
>
> HJ
>
The Glen-L Plans site has a link to a materal site too. It looks like it would take a compound bend better than plywood, but boy would it soak up the epoxy. It would be very heavy, but not being organic it would never rot.
CCG
"Harry W. James" <welshman@...> wrote:What are you after, appearance, durability or strength. In the latest
Boatbuilder there is a very good article from a homebuilder that tested
several of these. I have been meaning to summarize, as he had some very
interesting results, hopefully have time tomorrow.
HJ
rsmboatbuilder wrote:
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CCG
"Harry W. James" <welshman@...> wrote:What are you after, appearance, durability or strength. In the latest
Boatbuilder there is a very good article from a homebuilder that tested
several of these. I have been meaning to summarize, as he had some very
interesting results, hopefully have time tomorrow.
HJ
rsmboatbuilder wrote:
>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> I am assembling the pieces to build a Diablo Grande where the plan is
> to produce a highly finished strong hull but I am not overly
> concerned about weight. I simply want a strong glossy hull finish
> that will stand trailering and beaching.
>
> I have several catalogs which offer laminating material nearly all
> the materials have one advantage or another but I cant seem to arrive
> at a conclusion of what material(s) would be best for what I build.
> The runners up are Dynel, Vectracloth, Xynole, Olfin Spun
> Polypropylene, E-glass, and S-Glass. Also would like to know about
> the exotics Graphite, Kevlar, etc. E-Glass and S-glass are said to
> be very different but I have held both and can't see it. Dynel seems
> interesting but I have no experience with it. Vectra, Xynole, and
> Olfin are strange but really cheap so that interests me. Also they
> are available in very wide widths (60"). I know this is most likely
> a can of worms and I may not be able to arrive at a real answer but I
> wanted to try with this list. I don't know of a more competent group
> anywhere online that has the know how and trial and error experience
> of the folks here! Thanks in advance!
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> interesting but I have no experience with it. Vectra, Xynole, andI'm using about 75 yards of the 60" Olefin on the Wyo. It is very strong
> Olfin are strange but really cheap so that interests me. Also they
> are available in very wide widths (60").
and easy to work with, but, it does take about 30% more epoxy than the equal
weight of fiberglass. I prefer the working ability over fiberglass hands
down but it does come at the cost of epoxy and added weight. Best of all,
no itch!
Jeff
What are you after, appearance, durability or strength. In the latest
Boatbuilder there is a very good article from a homebuilder that tested
several of these. I have been meaning to summarize, as he had some very
interesting results, hopefully have time tomorrow.
HJ
rsmboatbuilder wrote:
Boatbuilder there is a very good article from a homebuilder that tested
several of these. I have been meaning to summarize, as he had some very
interesting results, hopefully have time tomorrow.
HJ
rsmboatbuilder wrote:
>
> I am assembling the pieces to build a Diablo Grande where the plan is
> to produce a highly finished strong hull but I am not overly
> concerned about weight. I simply want a strong glossy hull finish
> that will stand trailering and beaching.
>
> I have several catalogs which offer laminating material nearly all
> the materials have one advantage or another but I cant seem to arrive
> at a conclusion of what material(s) would be best for what I build.
> The runners up are Dynel, Vectracloth, Xynole, Olfin Spun
> Polypropylene, E-glass, and S-Glass. Also would like to know about
> the exotics Graphite, Kevlar, etc. E-Glass and S-glass are said to
> be very different but I have held both and can't see it. Dynel seems
> interesting but I have no experience with it. Vectra, Xynole, and
> Olfin are strange but really cheap so that interests me. Also they
> are available in very wide widths (60"). I know this is most likely
> a can of worms and I may not be able to arrive at a real answer but I
> wanted to try with this list. I don't know of a more competent group
> anywhere online that has the know how and trial and error experience
> of the folks here! Thanks in advance!
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I am assembling the pieces to build a Diablo Grande where the plan is
to produce a highly finished strong hull but I am not overly
concerned about weight. I simply want a strong glossy hull finish
that will stand trailering and beaching.
I have several catalogs which offer laminating material nearly all
the materials have one advantage or another but I cant seem to arrive
at a conclusion of what material(s) would be best for what I build.
The runners up are Dynel, Vectracloth, Xynole, Olfin Spun
Polypropylene, E-glass, and S-Glass. Also would like to know about
the exotics Graphite, Kevlar, etc. E-Glass and S-glass are said to
be very different but I have held both and can't see it. Dynel seems
interesting but I have no experience with it. Vectra, Xynole, and
Olfin are strange but really cheap so that interests me. Also they
are available in very wide widths (60"). I know this is most likely
a can of worms and I may not be able to arrive at a real answer but I
wanted to try with this list. I don't know of a more competent group
anywhere online that has the know how and trial and error experience
of the folks here! Thanks in advance!
to produce a highly finished strong hull but I am not overly
concerned about weight. I simply want a strong glossy hull finish
that will stand trailering and beaching.
I have several catalogs which offer laminating material nearly all
the materials have one advantage or another but I cant seem to arrive
at a conclusion of what material(s) would be best for what I build.
The runners up are Dynel, Vectracloth, Xynole, Olfin Spun
Polypropylene, E-glass, and S-Glass. Also would like to know about
the exotics Graphite, Kevlar, etc. E-Glass and S-glass are said to
be very different but I have held both and can't see it. Dynel seems
interesting but I have no experience with it. Vectra, Xynole, and
Olfin are strange but really cheap so that interests me. Also they
are available in very wide widths (60"). I know this is most likely
a can of worms and I may not be able to arrive at a real answer but I
wanted to try with this list. I don't know of a more competent group
anywhere online that has the know how and trial and error experience
of the folks here! Thanks in advance!