Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood for gypsy
You have to watch out for 3/8 AC. Three ply has often has the most
atrocious void filled core with thin outer ply. Pretty good 4 ply shows
up sometimes.
HJ
Chance Curtis wrote:
atrocious void filled core with thin outer ply. Pretty good 4 ply shows
up sometimes.
HJ
Chance Curtis wrote:
>
> Bolger warns to keep the floatation high. Putting it low will make the boat flip -turtle- if its placed too low. Is ACX the same as AC which is recomended in Instant Boats?
> By the way I live in Indiana here are plywood prices in Manard's home supply Sunday ad. All prices are for 4x8 unless noted.
> Luan 5mm $9.95 -this stuff is blonde not red: is it just as good ?
> acx !/4in fir $14, 3/8 $18, 1/2 $23
> 1/4 birch or red oak $14
> also 1/4 ProPly- 5ply baltic birch underlayment 4x5ft $9
> Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?
> CCG
>
> prthober <prthober@...> wrote:Stan,
>
> I built a Gypsy last spring and used 1/4 inch ACX throughout. I added
> full decking and covered everything external with 6 oz fiberglass in
> epoxy - obviously there has been no checking on these surfaces. The
> cockpit floor which is coated with epoxy and painted shows no sign of
> checking yet.
>
> Paul
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Stan" <stankellar@h...> wrote:
> > As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
> > goes.
> > I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if
> checking
> > will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
> > I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
> > with checking on the varnished surfaces.
> >
> > I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> > happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> > factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
> >
> > Stan
>
Hi Chance,
fir (Marine Ply): $41 per sheet, Meranti marine plywood (1088) $53 per
sheet, glass cloth $4.25 per yard (say $15 per "sheet") assume the
same resin either way. Glassed ACX is $3.00 more. But you really ought
to glass the bottom in any case. If you compare ACX to fir marine
plywood you would probably come up with a similar differential. But
think of the labor difference.
Bob Chamberland
fir (Marine Ply): $41 per sheet, Meranti marine plywood (1088) $53 per
sheet, glass cloth $4.25 per yard (say $15 per "sheet") assume the
same resin either way. Glassed ACX is $3.00 more. But you really ought
to glass the bottom in any case. If you compare ACX to fir marine
plywood you would probably come up with a similar differential. But
think of the labor difference.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
>
Is marine plywood just varnished, cheaper than acx glassed ?
> CCG
>
Bolger like his boats to swamp rather than flip. Either way you get wet. Is marine plywood just varnished, cheaper than acx glassed ?
CCG
prthober <prthober@...> wrote:"Bolger warns to keep the floatation high. Putting it low will make
the boat flip -turtle- if its placed too low."
The times I've capsized my Gypsy it did go right on over, daggerboard
up, but rolls right back very easily.
"Is ACX the same as AC which is recomended in Instant Boats?"
Yup
"Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?"
I think so.
Paul
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CCG
prthober <prthober@...> wrote:"Bolger warns to keep the floatation high. Putting it low will make
the boat flip -turtle- if its placed too low."
The times I've capsized my Gypsy it did go right on over, daggerboard
up, but rolls right back very easily.
"Is ACX the same as AC which is recomended in Instant Boats?"
Yup
"Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?"
I think so.
Paul
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Bolger warns to keep the floatation high. Putting it low will make
the boat flip -turtle- if its placed too low."
The times I've capsized my Gypsy it did go right on over, daggerboard
up, but rolls right back very easily.
"Is ACX the same as AC which is recomended in Instant Boats?"
Yup
"Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?"
I think so.
Paul
the boat flip -turtle- if its placed too low."
The times I've capsized my Gypsy it did go right on over, daggerboard
up, but rolls right back very easily.
"Is ACX the same as AC which is recomended in Instant Boats?"
Yup
"Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?"
I think so.
Paul
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
The baltic birch ProPly is designed for underlayment and even has
the nail pattern printed on it.
Hmmmm, that might look good - together with a tyvek sail!
The blonde luan was at Lowes Home center. The baltic birch ProPly is designed for underlayment and even as the nail pattern printed on it. Let me know what you think. With so much uncertainty about plywood here, I am temped to go with marine plywood and not fiberglass it. I had a 16 ft Speedliner runabout the was 30 years old and the guy I sold it to still has it in the water. Thoughts please.
CCG
wmrpage@...wrote:In a message dated 11/6/02 10:42:09 PM Central Standard Time,
sneakeasy2002@...writes:
waterproof-glued (didn't test it - it was a cold-molding job so it all got
epoxy saturated anyway) and void-free (seemed to be - we cut the sheets up
into lots of relatively narrow strips without encountering any that I
recall). It was "3-ply" - two very thin face sheets with the grain running
the long way, and one thick core perpendicular to that. This gave it quite
assymetric bending and strength qualities which is not characteristic of
regular plywood. It was also blonde in color, but I have no way of knowing if
the stuff you are looking at is the same or equivalent. If so, I would be
pretty cautious about using it as a direct substitute in a design where
plywood is specified - cautious, but open-minded. I have been planning to use
the same product (if still available) for a bunch of "furniture" I need to
construct this winter for a boat I'm overhauling, BUT...
That 5-ply Baltic Birch underlayment sounds intriguing! The 4X5 size would be
inconvenient for building a boat designed for 4X8 panels, but that wouldn't
be a consideration for my application. I guess I'll hustle my posterior down
to the local Menard's and see if they have any. Thanks for the tip!
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CCG
wmrpage@...wrote:In a message dated 11/6/02 10:42:09 PM Central Standard Time,
sneakeasy2002@...writes:
> also 1/4 ProPly- 5ply baltic birch underlayment 4x5ft $9I used some luan underlayment sometime ago - it was claimed to be
> Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?
>
waterproof-glued (didn't test it - it was a cold-molding job so it all got
epoxy saturated anyway) and void-free (seemed to be - we cut the sheets up
into lots of relatively narrow strips without encountering any that I
recall). It was "3-ply" - two very thin face sheets with the grain running
the long way, and one thick core perpendicular to that. This gave it quite
assymetric bending and strength qualities which is not characteristic of
regular plywood. It was also blonde in color, but I have no way of knowing if
the stuff you are looking at is the same or equivalent. If so, I would be
pretty cautious about using it as a direct substitute in a design where
plywood is specified - cautious, but open-minded. I have been planning to use
the same product (if still available) for a bunch of "furniture" I need to
construct this winter for a boat I'm overhauling, BUT...
That 5-ply Baltic Birch underlayment sounds intriguing! The 4X5 size would be
inconvenient for building a boat designed for 4X8 panels, but that wouldn't
be a consideration for my application. I guess I'll hustle my posterior down
to the local Menard's and see if they have any. Thanks for the tip!
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 11/6/02 10:42:09 PM Central Standard Time,
sneakeasy2002@...writes:
waterproof-glued (didn't test it - it was a cold-molding job so it all got
epoxy saturated anyway) and void-free (seemed to be - we cut the sheets up
into lots of relatively narrow strips without encountering any that I
recall). It was "3-ply" - two very thin face sheets with the grain running
the long way, and one thick core perpendicular to that. This gave it quite
assymetric bending and strength qualities which is not characteristic of
regular plywood. It was also blonde in color, but I have no way of knowing if
the stuff you are looking at is the same or equivalent. If so, I would be
pretty cautious about using it as a direct substitute in a design where
plywood is specified - cautious, but open-minded. I have been planning to use
the same product (if still available) for a bunch of "furniture" I need to
construct this winter for a boat I'm overhauling, BUT...
That 5-ply Baltic Birch underlayment sounds intriguing! The 4X5 size would be
inconvenient for building a boat designed for 4X8 panels, but that wouldn't
be a consideration for my application. I guess I'll hustle my posterior down
to the local Menard's and see if they have any. Thanks for the tip!
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sneakeasy2002@...writes:
> also 1/4 ProPly- 5ply baltic birch underlayment 4x5ft $9I used some luan underlayment sometime ago - it was claimed to be
> Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?
>
waterproof-glued (didn't test it - it was a cold-molding job so it all got
epoxy saturated anyway) and void-free (seemed to be - we cut the sheets up
into lots of relatively narrow strips without encountering any that I
recall). It was "3-ply" - two very thin face sheets with the grain running
the long way, and one thick core perpendicular to that. This gave it quite
assymetric bending and strength qualities which is not characteristic of
regular plywood. It was also blonde in color, but I have no way of knowing if
the stuff you are looking at is the same or equivalent. If so, I would be
pretty cautious about using it as a direct substitute in a design where
plywood is specified - cautious, but open-minded. I have been planning to use
the same product (if still available) for a bunch of "furniture" I need to
construct this winter for a boat I'm overhauling, BUT...
That 5-ply Baltic Birch underlayment sounds intriguing! The 4X5 size would be
inconvenient for building a boat designed for 4X8 panels, but that wouldn't
be a consideration for my application. I guess I'll hustle my posterior down
to the local Menard's and see if they have any. Thanks for the tip!
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ACX will be AC with waterproof (maybe) glue. Luan at $9.95 is probably
underlayment which may or may not be made with waterproof glue. If you
glass both sides of the underlayment it will probably be ok but at the
cost of better material. Luan is a catchall word for a large number of
wood species-really a meaningless term. You have to pay attention to
the glues used and at the Home Depots and such you will never know. If
you are building a throwaway boat then at least use ACX fir plywood.
Fir will check unless glassed. Luan underlayment probably won't check,
it will just fall apart.
Bob Chamberland
underlayment which may or may not be made with waterproof glue. If you
glass both sides of the underlayment it will probably be ok but at the
cost of better material. Luan is a catchall word for a large number of
wood species-really a meaningless term. You have to pay attention to
the glues used and at the Home Depots and such you will never know. If
you are building a throwaway boat then at least use ACX fir plywood.
Fir will check unless glassed. Luan underlayment probably won't check,
it will just fall apart.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., Chance Curtis <sneakeasy2002@y...> wrote:
>
> Bolger warns to keep the floatation high. Putting it low will make
the boat flip -turtle- if its placed too low. Is ACX the same as AC
which is recomended in Instant Boats?
> By the way I live in Indiana here are plywood prices in Manard's
home supply Sunday ad. All prices are for 4x8 unless noted.
> Luan 5mm $9.95 -this stuff is blonde not red: is it just as good ?
> acx !/4in fir $14, 3/8 $18, 1/2 $23
> 1/4 birch or red oak $14
> also 1/4 ProPly- 5ply baltic birch underlayment 4x5ft $9
> Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?
> CCG
Bolger warns to keep the floatation high. Putting it low will make the boat flip -turtle- if its placed too low. Is ACX the same as AC which is recomended in Instant Boats?
By the way I live in Indiana here are plywood prices in Manard's home supply Sunday ad. All prices are for 4x8 unless noted.
Luan 5mm $9.95 -this stuff is blonde not red: is it just as good ?
acx !/4in fir $14, 3/8 $18, 1/2 $23
1/4 birch or red oak $14
also 1/4 ProPly- 5ply baltic birch underlayment 4x5ft $9
Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?
CCG
prthober <prthober@...> wrote:Stan,
I built a Gypsy last spring and used 1/4 inch ACX throughout. I added
full decking and covered everything external with 6 oz fiberglass in
epoxy - obviously there has been no checking on these surfaces. The
cockpit floor which is coated with epoxy and painted shows no sign of
checking yet.
As to swamping - if you want to be able to easily self-rescue I would
suggest lots of floatation - mine has about 35% of the hull volumn as
floatation chambers and is easily righted and bailed out, even in
rough water.
Paul
By the way I live in Indiana here are plywood prices in Manard's home supply Sunday ad. All prices are for 4x8 unless noted.
Luan 5mm $9.95 -this stuff is blonde not red: is it just as good ?
acx !/4in fir $14, 3/8 $18, 1/2 $23
1/4 birch or red oak $14
also 1/4 ProPly- 5ply baltic birch underlayment 4x5ft $9
Is 1/4 in acx fir better than 5mm luan?
CCG
prthober <prthober@...> wrote:Stan,
I built a Gypsy last spring and used 1/4 inch ACX throughout. I added
full decking and covered everything external with 6 oz fiberglass in
epoxy - obviously there has been no checking on these surfaces. The
cockpit floor which is coated with epoxy and painted shows no sign of
checking yet.
As to swamping - if you want to be able to easily self-rescue I would
suggest lots of floatation - mine has about 35% of the hull volumn as
floatation chambers and is easily righted and bailed out, even in
rough water.
Paul
--- In bolger@y..., "Stan" <stankellar@h...> wrote:
> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
> goes.
> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if
checking
> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>
> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>
> Stan
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stan,
I built a Gypsy last spring and used 1/4 inch ACX throughout. I added
full decking and covered everything external with 6 oz fiberglass in
epoxy - obviously there has been no checking on these surfaces. The
cockpit floor which is coated with epoxy and painted shows no sign of
checking yet.
As to swamping - if you want to be able to easily self-rescue I would
suggest lots of floatation - mine has about 35% of the hull volumn as
floatation chambers and is easily righted and bailed out, even in
rough water.
Paul
I built a Gypsy last spring and used 1/4 inch ACX throughout. I added
full decking and covered everything external with 6 oz fiberglass in
epoxy - obviously there has been no checking on these surfaces. The
cockpit floor which is coated with epoxy and painted shows no sign of
checking yet.
As to swamping - if you want to be able to easily self-rescue I would
suggest lots of floatation - mine has about 35% of the hull volumn as
floatation chambers and is easily righted and bailed out, even in
rough water.
Paul
--- In bolger@y..., "Stan" <stankellar@h...> wrote:
> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
> goes.
> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if
checking
> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>
> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>
> Stan
The book I have on design formulas shows fiberglass with a SM (Stress
Modulus) of 29000 and wood or ferro-cement at 1600. This is the stress per
sq.inch when the material starts to fracture under flexural stress.
Measured on a beam of 1 inch square. The further apart the frames, the more
flex too.
Your right about the plywood fracturing before the fiberglass, and by a
large margin but the case is that with only plywood you'd have about 400 as
the SM with a layer of fiberglass of say 1/32", you might just double that,
but you certainly would be better off than just 1/4 plywood.
Fiberglass is not the big safety factor some think, especially the thicker
the plywood but on 1/4", if would make a big difference.
Again, if the designer doesn't call for it, the stress are figured for just
the plywood so the fiberglass is optional. Mostly for abrasion and
checking.
Jeff
Modulus) of 29000 and wood or ferro-cement at 1600. This is the stress per
sq.inch when the material starts to fracture under flexural stress.
Measured on a beam of 1 inch square. The further apart the frames, the more
flex too.
Your right about the plywood fracturing before the fiberglass, and by a
large margin but the case is that with only plywood you'd have about 400 as
the SM with a layer of fiberglass of say 1/32", you might just double that,
but you certainly would be better off than just 1/4 plywood.
Fiberglass is not the big safety factor some think, especially the thicker
the plywood but on 1/4", if would make a big difference.
Again, if the designer doesn't call for it, the stress are figured for just
the plywood so the fiberglass is optional. Mostly for abrasion and
checking.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 9:57 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood for gypsy
> Where does this factor of 19 come from? Numbers I recall would be more
> like half that, or less. And if the fiberglass is not stiff enough,
> all the strength in the world won't prevent the wood from breaking
> before the glass loads up. Can't remember the relative stiffness; and
> a lot depends on what weave and the direction of the load. Remember
> that stiffness and strength are very different things, tho sometimes
> correlated, and that much depends on fiber straightness and
> orientation.
>
> I think most of the designs we've been discussing don't need glass for
> strength.
>
> I know from personal experience that glassing the whole hull is a lot
> more work than just taping the seams. And I really don't see how this
> "envelope" has much to do with keeping the seams strong, since they
> are already taped. The only structural failure I've had was in the
> middle of a panel when I threw the boat in the water. A hazard of
> light boats and weak brains. Was glassed with 1 oz cloth and epoxy
> inside and out.
> --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> snip
> > It looks like fiberglass/epoxy is about 19 times stronger for a
> given
> > thickness of plywood. If that's so, adding a layer of 4 oz
> fiberglass could
> > easily double the strength of the 1/4" panel, at least for side and
> flexural
> > issues. If your going to coat in epoxy anyway, seems appropriate to
> throw
> > on 4 oz. fiberglass at the same time.
> >
> > But, if the design doesn't specifically call for fiberglass, I
> wouldn't
> > think that the designer needed it for the structural strength.
> >
> > Jeff
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Ryan" <david@c...>
> > To: <bolger@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 6:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
> >
> >
> > > I think the fiberglass envelope keeps tack&tape/stich&glue boat
> from
> > > exploding along the seems.
> > >
> > > I suppose you could just tape both sided of the seams and a leave
> it
> > > at that. But that sounds like nearly as much work as just glassing
> > > sheer to sheer, and doesn't yield the same benefit.
> snip
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
FIberglass is pretty good in compression, also (unlike kevlar), but,
as with any other material in compression, keeping it straight is even
more important than in tension. It's not straight when it's woven
cloth. Straight fiberglass/epoxy is way too heavy to build up
stiffness and strength by making it thicker without piling on the
weight. That's one reason why cored and fiberglass covered ply are
popular. However, it's not clear to me that e-glass over plywood is
going to be stiffer and stronger (2 different issues) than an equal
weight (a little thicker) of plywood. Thickness is very important to
strength and stiffness in bending. Think about a piece of foam core
board vs. a piece of thick poster board. Think about a spruce 2X2 vs
1/2" steel rod (the spruce will be a bit lighter). Think about a 2X4
on edge and flat.
BTW, e-glass is very strong, it's just not especially stiff. That's
one reason why many of those glass sailplanes are stressed to 18g
instead of a more reasonable number like 6 or 8. The wings would be
noodles otherwise.
As far as checking, some kinds of plywood will, some won't. It's not a
marine/non-marine issue, but depends on what kind of wood. None will
if properly glassed.
as with any other material in compression, keeping it straight is even
more important than in tension. It's not straight when it's woven
cloth. Straight fiberglass/epoxy is way too heavy to build up
stiffness and strength by making it thicker without piling on the
weight. That's one reason why cored and fiberglass covered ply are
popular. However, it's not clear to me that e-glass over plywood is
going to be stiffer and stronger (2 different issues) than an equal
weight (a little thicker) of plywood. Thickness is very important to
strength and stiffness in bending. Think about a piece of foam core
board vs. a piece of thick poster board. Think about a spruce 2X2 vs
1/2" steel rod (the spruce will be a bit lighter). Think about a 2X4
on edge and flat.
BTW, e-glass is very strong, it's just not especially stiff. That's
one reason why many of those glass sailplanes are stressed to 18g
instead of a more reasonable number like 6 or 8. The wings would be
noodles otherwise.
As far as checking, some kinds of plywood will, some won't. It's not a
marine/non-marine issue, but depends on what kind of wood. None will
if properly glassed.
--- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Fiberglass is very strong in tension. That is why it is used in an
epoxy
> matrix to hold the plywood together in stitch and glue. It is this
same
> strength in tension that stabilizes a surface and keeps the epoxy
> coating from breaking that makes sheathing a good thing. You can use
> very light weight fiberglass for sheathing.
> There is a very large weight gain in substituting fiberglass for
> planking if you are going to match stiffness and strength with wood.
At
> least that is what all the books say. That is why custom boats that
are
> concerned with weight use exotic composites or wood. Fiberglas isn't
> strong enough for the weight.
>
> HJ
>
> Chance Curtis wrote:
> >
> > No matter if you use ACX or marine plywood you will stil have to
fiberglas it for the needed strength --RIGHT OR WRONG ?
> > CCG
snip
Fiberglass is very strong in tension. That is why it is used in an epoxy
matrix to hold the plywood together in stitch and glue. It is this same
strength in tension that stabilizes a surface and keeps the epoxy
coating from breaking that makes sheathing a good thing. You can use
very light weight fiberglass for sheathing.
There is a very large weight gain in substituting fiberglass for
planking if you are going to match stiffness and strength with wood. At
least that is what all the books say. That is why custom boats that are
concerned with weight use exotic composites or wood. Fiberglas isn't
strong enough for the weight.
HJ
Chance Curtis wrote:
matrix to hold the plywood together in stitch and glue. It is this same
strength in tension that stabilizes a surface and keeps the epoxy
coating from breaking that makes sheathing a good thing. You can use
very light weight fiberglass for sheathing.
There is a very large weight gain in substituting fiberglass for
planking if you are going to match stiffness and strength with wood. At
least that is what all the books say. That is why custom boats that are
concerned with weight use exotic composites or wood. Fiberglas isn't
strong enough for the weight.
HJ
Chance Curtis wrote:
>
> No matter if you use ACX or marine plywood you will stil have to fiberglas it for the needed strength --RIGHT OR WRONG ?
> CCG
> jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
> Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass. But if
> you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
> isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
> it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
> mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
> preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
> the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
>
>
Where does this factor of 19 come from? Numbers I recall would be more
like half that, or less. And if the fiberglass is not stiff enough,
all the strength in the world won't prevent the wood from breaking
before the glass loads up. Can't remember the relative stiffness; and
a lot depends on what weave and the direction of the load. Remember
that stiffness and strength are very different things, tho sometimes
correlated, and that much depends on fiber straightness and
orientation.
I think most of the designs we've been discussing don't need glass for
strength.
I know from personal experience that glassing the whole hull is a lot
more work than just taping the seams. And I really don't see how this
"envelope" has much to do with keeping the seams strong, since they
are already taped. The only structural failure I've had was in the
middle of a panel when I threw the boat in the water. A hazard of
light boats and weak brains. Was glassed with 1 oz cloth and epoxy
inside and out.
like half that, or less. And if the fiberglass is not stiff enough,
all the strength in the world won't prevent the wood from breaking
before the glass loads up. Can't remember the relative stiffness; and
a lot depends on what weave and the direction of the load. Remember
that stiffness and strength are very different things, tho sometimes
correlated, and that much depends on fiber straightness and
orientation.
I think most of the designs we've been discussing don't need glass for
strength.
I know from personal experience that glassing the whole hull is a lot
more work than just taping the seams. And I really don't see how this
"envelope" has much to do with keeping the seams strong, since they
are already taped. The only structural failure I've had was in the
middle of a panel when I threw the boat in the water. A hazard of
light boats and weak brains. Was glassed with 1 oz cloth and epoxy
inside and out.
--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
snip
> It looks like fiberglass/epoxy is about 19 times stronger for a
given
> thickness of plywood. If that's so, adding a layer of 4 oz
fiberglass could
> easily double the strength of the 1/4" panel, at least for side and
flexural
> issues. If your going to coat in epoxy anyway, seems appropriate to
throw
> on 4 oz. fiberglass at the same time.
>
> But, if the design doesn't specifically call for fiberglass, I
wouldn't
> think that the designer needed it for the structural strength.
>
> Jeff
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Ryan" <david@c...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 6:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
>
>
> > I think the fiberglass envelope keeps tack&tape/stich&glue boat
from
> > exploding along the seems.
> >
> > I suppose you could just tape both sided of the seams and a leave
it
> > at that. But that sounds like nearly as much work as just glassing
> > sheer to sheer, and doesn't yield the same benefit.
snip
I've been doing some serious studing of hull design requirements. Hey I
figure if I can't build, study how to design it right?
It looks like fiberglass/epoxy is about 19 times stronger for a given
thickness of plywood. If that's so, adding a layer of 4 oz fiberglass could
easily double the strength of the 1/4" panel, at least for side and flexural
issues. If your going to coat in epoxy anyway, seems appropriate to throw
on 4 oz. fiberglass at the same time.
But, if the design doesn't specifically call for fiberglass, I wouldn't
think that the designer needed it for the structural strength.
Jeff
figure if I can't build, study how to design it right?
It looks like fiberglass/epoxy is about 19 times stronger for a given
thickness of plywood. If that's so, adding a layer of 4 oz fiberglass could
easily double the strength of the 1/4" panel, at least for side and flexural
issues. If your going to coat in epoxy anyway, seems appropriate to throw
on 4 oz. fiberglass at the same time.
But, if the design doesn't specifically call for fiberglass, I wouldn't
think that the designer needed it for the structural strength.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
> I think the fiberglass envelope keeps tack&tape/stich&glue boat from
> exploding along the seems.
>
> I suppose you could just tape both sided of the seams and a leave it
> at that. But that sounds like nearly as much work as just glassing
> sheer to sheer, and doesn't yield the same benefit.
>
> If you really, really don't want to work with glass I think the
> original Instant Boat, ie fit&fasten are far better to do without
> glass. But even on those Payson recommends taping the seams.
>
> You've got to be about the first person on this list trying to
> substitute better plywood inplace of glass and/or epoxy. The rest of
> us waste WEST system trying to build things out of luan!
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
>
>
>
> >How about 1/4 plywood boats in general , like the the Sneakeasy; can
> >you replace plywood and fiberglas cloth and epoxy for with same
> >thickness of just painted marine plywood? Is the added strength of
> >glass needed or is it just used for waterproofing?
> >CCG
> > David Ryan <david@...> wrote:The Gypsy is designed
> >to be sheathed sheer to sheer, stem to stern,
> >in fiberglass.
> >
> >>No matter if you use ACX or marine plywood you will stil have to
> >>fiberglas it for the needed strength --RIGHT OR WRONG ?
> >>CCG
> >> jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
> >> Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass.
But if
> >>you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses,
checking
> >>isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements
and
> >>it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
> >>mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
> >>preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll
cost
> >>the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
> >>
> >>Jeff
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Stan" <stankellar@...>
> >>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:14 PM
> >>Subject: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
> >>
> >>
> >>> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
> >>> goes.
> >>> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if
checking
> >>> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
> >>> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
> >>> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
> >>>
> >>> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> >>> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> >>> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
> >>>
> >>> Stan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> >>> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>
away
> >>> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
MA,
> >>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> >>
> >>Bolger rules!!!
> >>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> >>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> >>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> >>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------
> >>Do you Yahoo!?
> >>Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> >>
> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Bolger rules!!!
> >>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> >>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> >>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> >>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >--
> >
> >C.E.P.
> >415 W.46th Street
> >New York, New York 10036
> >http://www.crumblingempire.com
> >Mobile (646) 325-8325
> >Office (212) 247-0296
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> --
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
I think the fiberglass envelope keeps tack&tape/stich&glue boat from
exploding along the seems.
I suppose you could just tape both sided of the seams and a leave it
at that. But that sounds like nearly as much work as just glassing
sheer to sheer, and doesn't yield the same benefit.
If you really, really don't want to work with glass I think the
original Instant Boat, ie fit&fasten are far better to do without
glass. But even on those Payson recommends taping the seams.
You've got to be about the first person on this list trying to
substitute better plywood inplace of glass and/or epoxy. The rest of
us waste WEST system trying to build things out of luan!
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
exploding along the seems.
I suppose you could just tape both sided of the seams and a leave it
at that. But that sounds like nearly as much work as just glassing
sheer to sheer, and doesn't yield the same benefit.
If you really, really don't want to work with glass I think the
original Instant Boat, ie fit&fasten are far better to do without
glass. But even on those Payson recommends taping the seams.
You've got to be about the first person on this list trying to
substitute better plywood inplace of glass and/or epoxy. The rest of
us waste WEST system trying to build things out of luan!
YIBB,
David
>How about 1/4 plywood boats in general , like the the Sneakeasy; can--
>you replace plywood and fiberglas cloth and epoxy for with same
>thickness of just painted marine plywood? Is the added strength of
>glass needed or is it just used for waterproofing?
>CCG
> David Ryan <david@...> wrote:The Gypsy is designed
>to be sheathed sheer to sheer, stem to stern,
>in fiberglass.
>
>>No matter if you use ACX or marine plywood you will stil have to
>>fiberglas it for the needed strength --RIGHT OR WRONG ?
>>CCG
>> jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
>> Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass. But if
>>you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
>>isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
>>it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
>>mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
>>preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
>>the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Stan" <stankellar@...>
>>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:14 PM
>>Subject: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
>>
>>
>>> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
>>> goes.
>>> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
>>> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
>>> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
>>> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>>>
>>> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
>>> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
>>> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>>>
>>> Stan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>>> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>>> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>>
>>Bolger rules!!!
>>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>Bolger rules!!!
>>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>--
>
>C.E.P.
>415 W.46th Street
>New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
>Mobile (646) 325-8325
>Office (212) 247-0296
>
>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
How about 1/4 plywood boats in general , like the the Sneakeasy; can you replace plywood and fiberglas cloth and epoxy for with same thickness of just painted marine plywood? Is the added strength of glass needed or is it just used for waterproofing?
CCG
David Ryan <david@...> wrote:The Gypsy is designed to be sheathed sheer to sheer, stem to stern,
in fiberglass.
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CCG
David Ryan <david@...> wrote:The Gypsy is designed to be sheathed sheer to sheer, stem to stern,
in fiberglass.
>No matter if you use ACX or marine plywood you will stil have to--
>fiberglas it for the needed strength --RIGHT OR WRONG ?
>CCG
> jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
> Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass. But if
>you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
>isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
>it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
>mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
>preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
>the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
>
>Jeff
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stan" <stankellar@...>
>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:14 PM
>Subject: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
>
>
>> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
>> goes.
>> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
>> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
>> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
>> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>>
>> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
>> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
>> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Gypsy is designed to be sheathed sheer to sheer, stem to stern,
in fiberglass.
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
in fiberglass.
>No matter if you use ACX or marine plywood you will stil have to--
>fiberglas it for the needed strength --RIGHT OR WRONG ?
>CCG
> jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
> Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass. But if
>you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
>isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
>it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
>mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
>preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
>the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
>
>Jeff
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stan" <stankellar@...>
>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:14 PM
>Subject: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
>
>
>> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
>> goes.
>> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
>> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
>> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
>> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>>
>> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
>> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
>> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
No matter if you use ACX or marine plywood you will stil have to fiberglas it for the needed strength --RIGHT OR WRONG ?
CCG
jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass. But if
you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
Jeff
CCG
jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass. But if
you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan" <stankellar@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:14 PM
Subject: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
> goes.
> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>
> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>
> Stan
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A Gypsy is highly swampable. It is narrow with a low freeboard and if you will sail it anywhere outside of a farmpond you will want to
add mucho floatation or you will not be able to self-rescue. Most people seem to deck the front all the way back to the mast as well
as rear section to form airtight chambers (add a hatch to keep things dry). Even with this done waves over 2' start getting scary. My
winter project is to deck 8"-10" along the side (I forget the proper boatbuilder's term for that) with some more floatation
underneath. I may eventually end up decking everything except for a footwell so I can take it out in anything. It great fun when the
wind blows hard but is a bit undercanvassed in light air.
add mucho floatation or you will not be able to self-rescue. Most people seem to deck the front all the way back to the mast as well
as rear section to form airtight chambers (add a hatch to keep things dry). Even with this done waves over 2' start getting scary. My
winter project is to deck 8"-10" along the side (I forget the proper boatbuilder's term for that) with some more floatation
underneath. I may eventually end up decking everything except for a footwell so I can take it out in anything. It great fun when the
wind blows hard but is a bit undercanvassed in light air.
>
> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>
> Stan
I got some 1 oz fiberglass cheap at Defender. Maybe a bit harder to
work with than the heavier stuff, but it works. I think URL is
www.defenderus.com
work with than the heavier stuff, but it works. I think URL is
www.defenderus.com
--- In bolger@y..., "Stan" <stankellar@h...> wrote:
> Thanks for the generous help!
> I think light cloth, at least on the outside, will be my approach.
> This seems to a be a very hospitable group.
>
> Thanks
> Stan
> Portland, Maine
>http://members.tripod.com/stanley119/
I built my Surf with 6-mm meranti, fiberglassing the bottom (6 oz)
and sealing all other surfaces with WEST System epoxy. I painted all
but the fore and aft decks, which I bright-finished with Sikkens
Cetol Marine Light varnish. Sitting out this past summer, the boat's
first, the aft deck checked badly... but not the fore deck. The aft
will have to be sanded down and refinished. I'm scratching my head;
all I can think of is that I spread the epoxy too thin on the aft
deck.
Just my (baffling) experience.
John
and sealing all other surfaces with WEST System epoxy. I painted all
but the fore and aft decks, which I bright-finished with Sikkens
Cetol Marine Light varnish. Sitting out this past summer, the boat's
first, the aft deck checked badly... but not the fore deck. The aft
will have to be sanded down and refinished. I'm scratching my head;
all I can think of is that I spread the epoxy too thin on the aft
deck.
Just my (baffling) experience.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass.
But if
> you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses,
checking
> isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the
elements and
> it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on
a
> mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of
Luan and
> preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then
it'll cost
> the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stan" <stankellar@h...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:14 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
Best of luck on you boat!
Jeff
www.dreamwater.net/cosailor
Jeff
www.dreamwater.net/cosailor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan" <stankellar@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:38 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood for gypsy
> Thanks for the generous help!
> I think light cloth, at least on the outside, will be my approach.
> This seems to a be a very hospitable group.
>
> Thanks
> Stan
> Portland, Maine
>http://members.tripod.com/stanley119/
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Thanks for the generous help!
I think light cloth, at least on the outside, will be my approach.
This seems to a be a very hospitable group.
Thanks
Stan
Portland, Maine
http://members.tripod.com/stanley119/
I think light cloth, at least on the outside, will be my approach.
This seems to a be a very hospitable group.
Thanks
Stan
Portland, Maine
http://members.tripod.com/stanley119/
I will second this! If you use epoxy without glass over fir, you
might as well just paint.
OTOH: Even glass as light as 2oz with epoxy, then covered with
porchpaint will give you a multi season, maintenance free surface.
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
might as well just paint.
OTOH: Even glass as light as 2oz with epoxy, then covered with
porchpaint will give you a multi season, maintenance free surface.
>You have to have some fiberglas with the epoxy, it can be lightweight,--
>but just epoxy will check, in my experience.
>
>HJ
>
>Stan wrote:
>>
>> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
>> goes.
>> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
>> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
>> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
>> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>>
>> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
>> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
>> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
You have to have some fiberglas with the epoxy, it can be lightweight,
but just epoxy will check, in my experience.
HJ
Stan wrote:
but just epoxy will check, in my experience.
HJ
Stan wrote:
>
> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
> goes.
> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>
> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>
> Stan
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Jeff is right using just epoxy will check eventually (west systems,
system three etc) There are very thin fabrics which can stop this in
its tracks. There isnt much more work involved with adding glass etc
and it will stop the checking. You could ude cloths from 2oz on up
but wouldnt need 6 oz cloth. You could even use other materials
other than fiberglass Dynel etc.
Ian
system three etc) There are very thin fabrics which can stop this in
its tracks. There isnt much more work involved with adding glass etc
and it will stop the checking. You could ude cloths from 2oz on up
but wouldnt need 6 oz cloth. You could even use other materials
other than fiberglass Dynel etc.
Ian
--- In bolger@y..., "jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass.
But if
> you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses,
checking
> isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the
elements and
> it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on
a
> mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of
Luan and
> preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then
it'll cost
> the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
>
> Jeff
Fir or Pine ply will check, always. The key is to use fiberglass. But if
you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
Jeff
you store it inside or covered and it gets to dry out between uses, checking
isn't disasterous. Keep it well painted and protected from the elements and
it'll probably last as long or longer than you'll need. If kept on a
mooring, I'd glass it inside and out or go with a good grade of Luan and
preferably an exotic marine ply like Okume or Meranti, but then it'll cost
the same as glassing ACX, just less labor.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan" <stankellar@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:14 PM
Subject: [bolger] Plywood for gypsy
> As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
> goes.
> I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
> will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
> I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
> with checking on the varnished surfaces.
>
> I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
> happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
> factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
>
> Stan
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
As a newbie here, I have a question that may be old hat, but here
goes.
I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
with checking on the varnished surfaces.
I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
Stan
goes.
I am considering using AC fir ply for a Gypsy, and wonder if checking
will be a problem if I seal with thinned epoxy or polyester.
I have made a Lockwood Triple Pygmy from luan, and had no trouble
with checking on the varnished surfaces.
I also wonder what a Gypsy is like when swamped. I know it "never
happens," but when sailing my current 10 footer, it sometimes is a
factor when sailing where large powerboats are rentable.
Stan