Re: Sweat Pea is Floatation needed???
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
Yes, this is a fun design to hold in your mind's eye. I agree that
the sealed wrap-around deck would offer some protection from swamping
in a knockdown. However, what I was refering to was Dynamite Payson's
Woodenboat article building it. He stuffed the bow and stern with
foam and added a layer cut to fit under the deck. His point, sailing
as he does in midcoast Maine, was that he wanted to be as far as
possible out of the water in the event of a swamping. But I don't
think he ever tested it...
I've always loved the Sweet Pea design and recently bought the plans
from Dynamite. The shape is just what I want, but a with a few
modifications to fit my needs. The most important is scaling it up
20% to 18 ft overall. I'm messing with an autocad system at work, but
may soon have to retreat to the manual methods Sam Devlin published.
The other major change would be exchanging the slipping keel for a
centerboard. Not quite sure what I'll do with the rig, but will try
to keep everything simple as the boat will be used by a variety of
family members.
Fun stuff. Have a couple of boats to build before I get to this one,
so plenty of time to consider.
Hunkering down for winter on the Hudson,
John
> --- John "jbatesblnk" wrote RE: CartopperBruce,
>
> > If you do want something more
> > seaworthy without getting too large,
> > the Sweet Pea design might be a
> > good option. It does include a large
> > amount of floatation in the design.
>
> I have spent more than a small
> amount of time 'building' Sweat
> Pea in my mind's eye. As near as
> I can decipher, the floatation of
> Sweat Pea is achieved, not from
> foam or air chambers, but from the
> raised full length decks along
> each side of the boat. If the
> boat lies over on her side, the
> decks provide floatation.
>
> + Both the forward and after bulkheads
> would trap air for some floatation, but
> they have holes to pass a spare set of
> oars, plus the bulkheads have 'limbers'.
>
> I wonder if one was to take on massive
> water from a breaking surf, whether
> and how Sweat Pea would handle it?
>
> I guess I will have to build one
> to test it out. <grin>
Yes, this is a fun design to hold in your mind's eye. I agree that
the sealed wrap-around deck would offer some protection from swamping
in a knockdown. However, what I was refering to was Dynamite Payson's
Woodenboat article building it. He stuffed the bow and stern with
foam and added a layer cut to fit under the deck. His point, sailing
as he does in midcoast Maine, was that he wanted to be as far as
possible out of the water in the event of a swamping. But I don't
think he ever tested it...
I've always loved the Sweet Pea design and recently bought the plans
from Dynamite. The shape is just what I want, but a with a few
modifications to fit my needs. The most important is scaling it up
20% to 18 ft overall. I'm messing with an autocad system at work, but
may soon have to retreat to the manual methods Sam Devlin published.
The other major change would be exchanging the slipping keel for a
centerboard. Not quite sure what I'll do with the rig, but will try
to keep everything simple as the boat will be used by a variety of
family members.
Fun stuff. Have a couple of boats to build before I get to this one,
so plenty of time to consider.
Hunkering down for winter on the Hudson,
John
--- John "jbatesblnk" wrote RE: Cartopper
amount of time 'building' Sweat
Pea in my mind's eye. As near as
I can decipher, the floatation of
Sweat Pea is achieved, not from
foam or air chambers, but from the
raised full length decks along
each side of the boat. If the
boat lies over on her side, the
decks provide floatation.
+ Both the forward and after bulkheads
would trap air for some floatation, but
they have holes to pass a spare set of
oars, plus the bulkheads have 'limbers'.
I wonder if one was to take on massive
water from a breaking surf, whether
and how Sweat Pea would handle it?
I guess I will have to build one
to test it out. <grin>
> If you do want something moreI have spent more than a small
> seaworthy without getting too large,
> the Sweet Pea design might be a
> good option. It does include a large
> amount of floatation in the design.
amount of time 'building' Sweat
Pea in my mind's eye. As near as
I can decipher, the floatation of
Sweat Pea is achieved, not from
foam or air chambers, but from the
raised full length decks along
each side of the boat. If the
boat lies over on her side, the
decks provide floatation.
+ Both the forward and after bulkheads
would trap air for some floatation, but
they have holes to pass a spare set of
oars, plus the bulkheads have 'limbers'.
I wonder if one was to take on massive
water from a breaking surf, whether
and how Sweat Pea would handle it?
I guess I will have to build one
to test it out. <grin>
--- In bolger@y..., "guntercb" <chrisfishinggunter@y...> wrote:
extensively. I tried filling the space under the platform with foam
on one of the two boats. My brother capsized that one in a breeze of
wind and could not bail her out because the foam in the bottom wanted
to get to the top, and promptly turned her turtle despite
his efforts to stop it. Even after he pulled out the mast she wanted
to float cocked over with one rail underwater.
You might get away with foam under the bow platform and more tucked
up against the transom aft. I happen to like being able to sit
against the transom to balance out kids far forward in the bow. But
then again, unlike my brother, I've never swamped in deep water.
One way or the other, I would reject out of hand any notion of
thwarts for putting flotation under. To me, Cartopper's comfortable
midships platform (made possible by the far forward c/b) defines the
boat. Having that platform is the entire point of the design.
Certainly you could put thwarts in her, but then why bother with
Cartopper? Get plans for any one of dozens of 11-12' boats with
conventionally positioned c/b's - and uncomfortable thwarts.
John O'Neill
> Hello,need
>
> I am going to build the Bolger Cartopper and was wondering if I
> to add floatation to this boat?I've had two of them for four years and have used them fairly
extensively. I tried filling the space under the platform with foam
on one of the two boats. My brother capsized that one in a breeze of
wind and could not bail her out because the foam in the bottom wanted
to get to the top, and promptly turned her turtle despite
his efforts to stop it. Even after he pulled out the mast she wanted
to float cocked over with one rail underwater.
You might get away with foam under the bow platform and more tucked
up against the transom aft. I happen to like being able to sit
against the transom to balance out kids far forward in the bow. But
then again, unlike my brother, I've never swamped in deep water.
One way or the other, I would reject out of hand any notion of
thwarts for putting flotation under. To me, Cartopper's comfortable
midships platform (made possible by the far forward c/b) defines the
boat. Having that platform is the entire point of the design.
Certainly you could put thwarts in her, but then why bother with
Cartopper? Get plans for any one of dozens of 11-12' boats with
conventionally positioned c/b's - and uncomfortable thwarts.
John O'Neill
Bruce,
Interesting thought; however, I think I am going to stick to 1/4"
plywood. Being only my second boat I don't want to get too radical.
But let me know how your experiment goes. Does sound interesting.
Thanks,
Chris
Interesting thought; however, I think I am going to stick to 1/4"
plywood. Being only my second boat I don't want to get too radical.
But let me know how your experiment goes. Does sound interesting.
Thanks,
Chris
--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@c...> wrote:
>
> Howdy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 3:03 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Cartopper is Floatation needed???
>
>
> > That's a problem with a cartopper - there are no seats aft of a
small
> > space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting
platform
> > raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that
no
> > seats should be added midships or aft.
>
> This may not be appropriate, but I was thinking of building a boat
that
> calls for 1/4 ply out of a laminate of 1/8" luan, 1/2" foil faced
foam, and
> 1/8" luan. More for the possible strength that may result rather
than
> floatation, but it would add flotation. Perhaps you could line the
inside
> of your cartopper with the foil faced foam, then cover it with 1/8"
luan to
> protect the foam. I haven't checked whether or not the foil
faced foam is
> closed cell or not. Wouldn't want to use open cell foam since it
would act
> like a sponge. Also I don't know what adhesives will bond to the
foam.
>
> Good Luck
>
>
> See Ya
>
> Have Fun
>
> Bruce
>
>http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
John and everyone,
Thanks for the responces. Any additional information about swamping
a cartopper in deep water would would be appreciated.
I think I am going to put foam in the bow cubby and build in an aft
seat. The aft seat will only be for floatation and not sitting
because as you say Bolger is very clear that weight should stay on
the sitting platform.
Though I wonder if I could raise the sitting platform and put enough
foam under it to make it float above the gunnels when fully
swamped....
I am looking forward to getting started. Just need to go and buy the
plywood. (-:
Chris
Thanks for the responces. Any additional information about swamping
a cartopper in deep water would would be appreciated.
I think I am going to put foam in the bow cubby and build in an aft
seat. The aft seat will only be for floatation and not sitting
because as you say Bolger is very clear that weight should stay on
the sitting platform.
Though I wonder if I could raise the sitting platform and put enough
foam under it to make it float above the gunnels when fully
swamped....
I am looking forward to getting started. Just need to go and buy the
plywood. (-:
Chris
--- In bolger@y..., "jbatesblnk" <JBatesBlnk@a...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
> > I have no first hand experience with the Cartopper. But, since it
> is
> > meant for row, sail or motor, I'd add floatation. Especially if
you
> > were going to motor. Or if you like a little peace of mind in
deep
> > water on a blustery day.
> >
> > Can you glue foam under the seats? On my Diablo we closed in the
> bow
> > to make an air chamber, and fitted foam under the stern seats.
> Sheet
> > foam can be cut and glued to the sides near and on the transom.
>
> That's a problem with a cartopper - there are no seats aft of a
small
> space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting
platform
> raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
> seats should be added midships or aft.
>
> You could probably stuff the bow storage cubby with foam, and fit
> more under the platform, but I have doubts as to what you would
> really accomplish. It is a well mannered little boat and has never
> given trouble when used sensibly. It is not a vessel for epic
voyages
> and should be used in protected waters in good weather. Even if it
> does swamp, it won't sink, and unless you are in really cold water,
> you will be able to self rescue. I never swamped PB&J, but in my
> early years discovered that a swamped bettlecat sails just fine if
a
> bit slow.
>
> If you do want something more seaworthy without getting too large,
> the Sweet Pea design might be a good option. It does include a
large
> amount of floatation in the design.
>
> Enjoy,
> John
Howdy
I tried the boil test on the foil backed foam, and the glue holding the foam
failed when the foam expanded because of the heat. :( The other bad news is
that it appears to be open cell foam. I am soaking another section in water
to see if it will absorb water.
Maybe a different type of foam will work better :)
See Ya
Have Fun
Bruce
http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
I tried the boil test on the foil backed foam, and the glue holding the foam
failed when the foam expanded because of the heat. :( The other bad news is
that it appears to be open cell foam. I am soaking another section in water
to see if it will absorb water.
Maybe a different type of foam will work better :)
See Ya
Have Fun
Bruce
http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
Howdy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Cartopper is Floatation needed???
> That's a problem with a cartopper - there are no seats aft of a small
> space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting platform
> raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
> seats should be added midships or aft.
This may not be appropriate, but I was thinking of building a boat that
calls for 1/4 ply out of a laminate of 1/8" luan, 1/2" foil faced foam, and
1/8" luan. More for the possible strength that may result rather than
floatation, but it would add flotation. Perhaps you could line the inside
of your cartopper with the foil faced foam, then cover it with 1/8" luan to
protect the foam. I haven't checked whether or not the foil faced foam is
closed cell or not. Wouldn't want to use open cell foam since it would act
like a sponge. Also I don't know what adhesives will bond to the foam.
Good Luck
See Ya
Have Fun
Bruce
http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting platform
raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
seats should be added midships or aft.
You could probably stuff the bow storage cubby with foam, and fit
more under the platform, but I have doubts as to what you would
really accomplish. It is a well mannered little boat and has never
given trouble when used sensibly. It is not a vessel for epic voyages
and should be used in protected waters in good weather. Even if it
does swamp, it won't sink, and unless you are in really cold water,
you will be able to self rescue. I never swamped PB&J, but in my
early years discovered that a swamped bettlecat sails just fine if a
bit slow.
If you do want something more seaworthy without getting too large,
the Sweet Pea design might be a good option. It does include a large
amount of floatation in the design.
Enjoy,
John
> I have no first hand experience with the Cartopper. But, since itis
> meant for row, sail or motor, I'd add floatation. Especially if youbow
> were going to motor. Or if you like a little peace of mind in deep
> water on a blustery day.
>
> Can you glue foam under the seats? On my Diablo we closed in the
> to make an air chamber, and fitted foam under the stern seats.Sheet
> foam can be cut and glued to the sides near and on the transom.That's a problem with a cartopper - there are no seats aft of a small
space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting platform
raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
seats should be added midships or aft.
You could probably stuff the bow storage cubby with foam, and fit
more under the platform, but I have doubts as to what you would
really accomplish. It is a well mannered little boat and has never
given trouble when used sensibly. It is not a vessel for epic voyages
and should be used in protected waters in good weather. Even if it
does swamp, it won't sink, and unless you are in really cold water,
you will be able to self rescue. I never swamped PB&J, but in my
early years discovered that a swamped bettlecat sails just fine if a
bit slow.
If you do want something more seaworthy without getting too large,
the Sweet Pea design might be a good option. It does include a large
amount of floatation in the design.
Enjoy,
John
--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting platform
raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
seats should be added midships or aft.
You could probably stuff the bow storage cubby with foam, and fit
more under the platform, but I have doubts as to what you would
really accomplish. It is a well mannered little boat and has never
given trouble when used sensibly. It is not a vessel for epic voyages
and should be used in protected waters in good weather. Even if it
does swamp, it won't sink, and unless you are in really cold water,
you will be able to self rescue. I never swamped PB&J, but in my
early years discovered that a swamped bettlecat sails just fine if a
bit slow.
If you do want something more seaworthy without getting too large,
the Sweet Pea design might be a good option. It does include a large
amount of floatation in the design.
Enjoy,
John
> I have no first hand experience with the Cartopper. But, since itis
> meant for row, sail or motor, I'd add floatation. Especially if youbow
> were going to motor. Or if you like a little peace of mind in deep
> water on a blustery day.
>
> Can you glue foam under the seats? On my Diablo we closed in the
> to make an air chamber, and fitted foam under the stern seats.Sheet
> foam can be cut and glued to the sides near and on the transom.That's a problem with a cartopper - there are no seats aft of a small
space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting platform
raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
seats should be added midships or aft.
You could probably stuff the bow storage cubby with foam, and fit
more under the platform, but I have doubts as to what you would
really accomplish. It is a well mannered little boat and has never
given trouble when used sensibly. It is not a vessel for epic voyages
and should be used in protected waters in good weather. Even if it
does swamp, it won't sink, and unless you are in really cold water,
you will be able to self rescue. I never swamped PB&J, but in my
early years discovered that a swamped bettlecat sails just fine if a
bit slow.
If you do want something more seaworthy without getting too large,
the Sweet Pea design might be a good option. It does include a large
amount of floatation in the design.
Enjoy,
John
--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting platform
raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
seats should be added midships or aft.
You could probably stuff the bow storage cubby with foam, and fit
more under the platform, but I have doubts as to what you would
really accomplish. It is a well mannered little boat and has never
given trouble when used sensibly. It is not a vessel for epic voyages
and should be used in protected waters in good weather. Even if it
does swamp, it won't sink, and unless you are in really cold water,
you will be able to self rescue. I never swamped PB&J, but in my
early years discovered that a swamped bettlecat sails just fine if a
bit slow.
If you do want something more seaworthy without getting too large,
the Sweet Pea design might be a good option. It does include a large
amount of floatation in the design.
Enjoy,
John
> I have no first hand experience with the Cartopper. But, since itis
> meant for row, sail or motor, I'd add floatation. Especially if youbow
> were going to motor. Or if you like a little peace of mind in deep
> water on a blustery day.
>
> Can you glue foam under the seats? On my Diablo we closed in the
> to make an air chamber, and fitted foam under the stern seats.Sheet
> foam can be cut and glued to the sides near and on the transom.That's a problem with a cartopper - there are no seats aft of a small
space in the bow. The center of the boat has a large sitting platform
raised just a few inches above the bottom. Bolger was clear that no
seats should be added midships or aft.
You could probably stuff the bow storage cubby with foam, and fit
more under the platform, but I have doubts as to what you would
really accomplish. It is a well mannered little boat and has never
given trouble when used sensibly. It is not a vessel for epic voyages
and should be used in protected waters in good weather. Even if it
does swamp, it won't sink, and unless you are in really cold water,
you will be able to self rescue. I never swamped PB&J, but in my
early years discovered that a swamped bettlecat sails just fine if a
bit slow.
If you do want something more seaworthy without getting too large,
the Sweet Pea design might be a good option. It does include a large
amount of floatation in the design.
Enjoy,
John
>I have no first hand experience with the Cartopper. But, since it isAs someone who grew up on modern, positive floatation boats, I'll
>meant for row, sail or motor, I'd add floatation. Especially if you
>were going to motor. Or if you like a little peace of mind in deep
>water on a blustery day.
second Bruce. You'll never regret having too much flotation in your
boat.
That said, none of my boats have enough flotation for self-rescue.
It's made me much, much more cautious. Much easier to see that
mistakes on the water have consequences. I've learned valuable
lessons, and I'm a better waterman for it.
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
I have no first hand experience with the Cartopper. But, since it is
meant for row, sail or motor, I'd add floatation. Especially if you
were going to motor. Or if you like a little peace of mind in deep
water on a blustery day.
Can you glue foam under the seats? On my Diablo we closed in the bow
to make an air chamber, and fitted foam under the stern seats. Sheet
foam can be cut and glued to the sides near and on the transom.
meant for row, sail or motor, I'd add floatation. Especially if you
were going to motor. Or if you like a little peace of mind in deep
water on a blustery day.
Can you glue foam under the seats? On my Diablo we closed in the bow
to make an air chamber, and fitted foam under the stern seats. Sheet
foam can be cut and glued to the sides near and on the transom.
--- In bolger@y..., "guntercb" <chrisfishinggunter@y...> wrote:
This is a great little boat. I built one we named PB&J about 8 years
ago using luan encased in fiberglass and epoxy. I did not add any
floatation.
I never swamped it except deliberately in standing depth water. It
seemed easy enough to clear in the security of the shallows.
Certainly my kids had fun doing it.
The boat rows and sails well, has been a good sail trainer for
children. After 8 years I still love the sheerline. FWIW the luan has
held up fine, but I was careful with the fiberglass and expoxy,
painted or varnished everthing, and bedded anything screwed on
without epoxy. It has not been used hard. Still, I don't think I'd
use the luan for anything larger.
Have fun with it,
John
> Hello,need
>
> I am going to build the Bolger Cartopper and was wondering if I
> to add floatation to this boat? If I build the boat has BolgerChris,
> designed it with no additional floatation and I capsize will I be
> able to self rescue while in deep water?
>
> If floatation is needed can someone give me some suggestions on how
> they added it?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
This is a great little boat. I built one we named PB&J about 8 years
ago using luan encased in fiberglass and epoxy. I did not add any
floatation.
I never swamped it except deliberately in standing depth water. It
seemed easy enough to clear in the security of the shallows.
Certainly my kids had fun doing it.
The boat rows and sails well, has been a good sail trainer for
children. After 8 years I still love the sheerline. FWIW the luan has
held up fine, but I was careful with the fiberglass and expoxy,
painted or varnished everthing, and bedded anything screwed on
without epoxy. It has not been used hard. Still, I don't think I'd
use the luan for anything larger.
Have fun with it,
John
Hello,
I am going to build the Bolger Cartopper and was wondering if I need
to add floatation to this boat? If I build the boat has Bolger
designed it with no additional floatation and I capsize will I be
able to self rescue while in deep water?
If floatation is needed can someone give me some suggestions on how
they added it?
Thanks,
Chris
I am going to build the Bolger Cartopper and was wondering if I need
to add floatation to this boat? If I build the boat has Bolger
designed it with no additional floatation and I capsize will I be
able to self rescue while in deep water?
If floatation is needed can someone give me some suggestions on how
they added it?
Thanks,
Chris