Re: Glassing for impact resistance/resistance
> > .......... UHMW is the greatest innovation for wooden boats sinceit cost?
> > bronze screws.
>
> But where du you buy it? What form does it come in? How much does
>Try Crown Plastics:http://www.crownplastics.com/513-367-0238. For
notes on a conversation I had with Pete there, see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/23430. There are lots
of other vendors (try a Google search) but Pete seemed knowledgeable.
He sent me a couple 10" square samples of adhesive-backed UHMW, but I
haven't yet had a boat upside down to apply it. Wonder how it
adheres in cold temps?
Sal's Dad
(still peeved 'cause the Diablo's new Yamaha wouldn't start this
weekend - it wasn't THAT cold, just a bit of ice in the bilge...)
> .......... UHMW is the greatest innovation for wooden boats sinceBut where du you buy it? What form does it come in? How much does it cost?
> bronze screws. The views expressed here are mine alone and do not
> represent Yahoo or others who post on this forum(LOL).
>
> John
Sakari Aaltonen
--- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
expressed an opinion? Beyond the
advantages that John mentions, I
imagine that barnacles, etc. will
not attach to it. Similar for
boring clams. Sort of the modern
answer to copper cladding.
> I continue to advocate UHMW for all the reasons sited in thisI am intrigued by the stuff. Has PCB
> thread.
expressed an opinion? Beyond the
advantages that John mentions, I
imagine that barnacles, etc. will
not attach to it. Similar for
boring clams. Sort of the modern
answer to copper cladding.
I continue to advocate UHMW for all the reasons sited in this
thread. With UHMW your boat acts like it has a Teflon shell and will
slid up and over submerged obstacles like rocks and logs. I'm
positive if you follow a good building practice with normal bracing
and bulkheads then plate you boat with this incredible substance you
will have a three part protection system.
1. Plywood is stronger than most plain wood when comparing equal
thickness.
2. Fiberglass with epoxy provides another excellent layer that will
allow an impact to be spread over a larger area to absorb the impact
instead of a puncture.
3. Finally UHMW is and has been in use on wooden boats for years and
is becoming a favorite coating for craft exposed to white water or
rocky beaches where no other bottom protection works like UHMW.
I implore all boat builders to become acquainted with UHMW, it could
save your life or hours of cutting and scraping out wood rot. Maybe
you're afraid of the weight cost but I have used a .22 rifle(in a
safe area) and if you shoot at UHMW(3/8") directly on it will flatten
the bullet if the UHMW is backed by plywood. By itself it allows
penetration but no further travel. Not as effective as kevlar but
UHMW is supposed to provide a super slick surface that will provide
something that slides past and over rocks, eliminating punctures.
I have used UHMW on drift boats that survived my poor navigation
down some of the most treacherous white water the pacific northwest
has to offer. The outcome, Rivers 7 oars. Boats, well over 100
anadromous fish including steelhead, Salmon and Char. Some rapids
caused impacts that would have literally torn the bottom out of a
plain plywood with fiberglass covered bottom.
I cannot make anyone use UHMW but I will use it myself when I know
the safety of myself, family and other passengers depend on my good
judgment. UHMW is the greatest innovation for wooden boats since
bronze screws. The views expressed here are mine alone and do not
represent Yahoo or others who post on this forum(LOL).
John
thread. With UHMW your boat acts like it has a Teflon shell and will
slid up and over submerged obstacles like rocks and logs. I'm
positive if you follow a good building practice with normal bracing
and bulkheads then plate you boat with this incredible substance you
will have a three part protection system.
1. Plywood is stronger than most plain wood when comparing equal
thickness.
2. Fiberglass with epoxy provides another excellent layer that will
allow an impact to be spread over a larger area to absorb the impact
instead of a puncture.
3. Finally UHMW is and has been in use on wooden boats for years and
is becoming a favorite coating for craft exposed to white water or
rocky beaches where no other bottom protection works like UHMW.
I implore all boat builders to become acquainted with UHMW, it could
save your life or hours of cutting and scraping out wood rot. Maybe
you're afraid of the weight cost but I have used a .22 rifle(in a
safe area) and if you shoot at UHMW(3/8") directly on it will flatten
the bullet if the UHMW is backed by plywood. By itself it allows
penetration but no further travel. Not as effective as kevlar but
UHMW is supposed to provide a super slick surface that will provide
something that slides past and over rocks, eliminating punctures.
I have used UHMW on drift boats that survived my poor navigation
down some of the most treacherous white water the pacific northwest
has to offer. The outcome, Rivers 7 oars. Boats, well over 100
anadromous fish including steelhead, Salmon and Char. Some rapids
caused impacts that would have literally torn the bottom out of a
plain plywood with fiberglass covered bottom.
I cannot make anyone use UHMW but I will use it myself when I know
the safety of myself, family and other passengers depend on my good
judgment. UHMW is the greatest innovation for wooden boats since
bronze screws. The views expressed here are mine alone and do not
represent Yahoo or others who post on this forum(LOL).
John
--- In bolger@y..., "Ned Asplundh" <nasplundh@y...> wrote:
> Lookee here:
>
>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm
>
> ...for one builder's take on the "good, bad and ugly" of differing
> reinforcement fabrics.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> > FBBB --
> >
> > As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
> > anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
> > between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
> >
> > However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact
> resistance"
> > on my small boats.
> >
> > The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
> > allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the
results
> > of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
> delaminates,
> > trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
> >
> > Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
> > pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact
protection
> > either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
> > enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a
> small,
> > cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
> >
> > YIBB,
> >
> > David
> > --
> >
> > C.E.P.
> > 415 W.46th Street
> > New York, New York 10036
> >http://www.crumblingempire.com
> > Mobile (646) 325-8325
> > Office (212) 247-0296
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
the glass as it cures? Do you precoat the plywood first with a
penetrating resin to prevent this?
System Three has a special resin for this purpose.There should
therefor be a molecular bonding between that inner glass surface and
the plywood cellular structure. This is one reason why epoxy is
superior to polyester resin.
Nels
> FBBB --delaminates,
>
> The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
> allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
> of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
> trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.I wonder David if the plywood is sucking out some of the resin from
>
>> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296
the glass as it cures? Do you precoat the plywood first with a
penetrating resin to prevent this?
System Three has a special resin for this purpose.There should
therefor be a molecular bonding between that inner glass surface and
the plywood cellular structure. This is one reason why epoxy is
superior to polyester resin.
Nels
I just visited this site and one of us is mistaken. I purchased Olefin from
Defender and it looks and lays up exactly like the Dynel shown on this site.
Also, the Defender catalog list this type of picture for Olefin.
I went out in the garage and checked the box and packing on the 75 yard roll
I have been using and it's marked Olefin.
It's possible this site has the Dynel and Olefin mixed up.
Interesting.
Jeff
Defender and it looks and lays up exactly like the Dynel shown on this site.
Also, the Defender catalog list this type of picture for Olefin.
I went out in the garage and checked the box and packing on the 75 yard roll
I have been using and it's marked Olefin.
It's possible this site has the Dynel and Olefin mixed up.
Interesting.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ned Asplundh" <nasplundh@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Glassing for impact resistance/resistance is useless
> Lookee here:
>
>http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm
>
> ...for one builder's take on the "good, bad and ugly" of differing
> reinforcement fabrics.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> > FBBB --
> >
> > As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
> > anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
> > between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
> >
> > However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact
> resistance"
> > on my small boats.
> >
> > The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
> > allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
> > of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
> delaminates,
> > trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
> >
> > Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
> > pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
> > either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
> > enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a
> small,
> > cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
> >
> > YIBB,
> >
> > David
> > --
> >
> > C.E.P.
> > 415 W.46th Street
> > New York, New York 10036
> >http://www.crumblingempire.com
> > Mobile (646) 325-8325
> > Office (212) 247-0296
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Lookee here:
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm
...for one builder's take on the "good, bad and ugly" of differing
reinforcement fabrics.
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm
...for one builder's take on the "good, bad and ugly" of differing
reinforcement fabrics.
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> FBBB --
>
> As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
> anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
> between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
>
> However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact
resistance"
> on my small boats.
>
> The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
> allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
> of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
delaminates,
> trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
>
> Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
> pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
> either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
> enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a
small,
> cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
> --
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296
The interesting thing about glassing the hull for "impact resistance" is
that we all put it on the wrong side! Durring a big impact the outside of
the hull is under compression, and the inside is under tension. If we put
the glass on the inside, it would have a much better chance of preventing a
stump from joining you in the boat.
Glass on the outside is handy to keep big chunks of plywood from being
ripped out by sharp rocks, though. Kevlar would be even better.
Then again, on thin hulls, 5mm lauan comes to mind, I've come close to
putting a knee through the bottom of the hull. Even a light glass layer on
the bottom would help prevent that.
that we all put it on the wrong side! Durring a big impact the outside of
the hull is under compression, and the inside is under tension. If we put
the glass on the inside, it would have a much better chance of preventing a
stump from joining you in the boat.
Glass on the outside is handy to keep big chunks of plywood from being
ripped out by sharp rocks, though. Kevlar would be even better.
Then again, on thin hulls, 5mm lauan comes to mind, I've come close to
putting a knee through the bottom of the hull. Even a light glass layer on
the bottom would help prevent that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 6:00 AM
Subject: [bolger] Glassing for impact resistance/resistance is useless
| FBBB --
|
| As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
| anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
| between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
|
| However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact resistance"
| on my small boats.
|
| The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
| allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
| of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass delaminates,
| trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
|
| Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
| pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
| either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
| enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a small,
| cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
|
| YIBB,
|
| David
| --
|
| C.E.P.
| 415 W.46th Street
| New York, New York 10036
|http://www.crumblingempire.com
| Mobile (646) 325-8325
| Office (212) 247-0296
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
that Xynole fabric, which I
recall is rated for much better
impact resistance than fiberglass.
I have some of that fabric in my
hands right now, and it has an
open weave, which reminds me
of cheese cloth, but thicker.
Here is a cut and paste of the
www.raka.com blurb on the stuff:
====
New Polyester Cloth
(Xynole)
This is a light weight open weave cloth made of polyester fibers. It
is very easy to wet out and drapable. It has good elongation
properties and good abrasion resistance. It does not itch like
fiberglass. Makes a good hull covering material. Does not wet out
clear.
> However, I've had no good experienceI have used, (but haven't tested)
> "glassing for impact resistance"
> on my small boats.
that Xynole fabric, which I
recall is rated for much better
impact resistance than fiberglass.
I have some of that fabric in my
hands right now, and it has an
open weave, which reminds me
of cheese cloth, but thicker.
Here is a cut and paste of the
www.raka.com blurb on the stuff:
====
New Polyester Cloth
(Xynole)
This is a light weight open weave cloth made of polyester fibers. It
is very easy to wet out and drapable. It has good elongation
properties and good abrasion resistance. It does not itch like
fiberglass. Makes a good hull covering material. Does not wet out
clear.
FBBB --
As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact resistance"
on my small boats.
The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass delaminates,
trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a small,
cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact resistance"
on my small boats.
The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass delaminates,
trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a small,
cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296