Re: Nymph Update
I used the ties on two Nymphs. Had the holes for the ties about 3/8 inch
from the edges of the both ply parts. Yesterday I was showing someone one of
the boats and I had trouble showing him where the remains of the tie was on
the inside joint. It was invisible. Perhaps my fillets are bigger (messier)
than yours.
Oh the advantages of a workboat finish!! = Stealth technology!! }8?>
regards
Paul-NZ
from the edges of the both ply parts. Yesterday I was showing someone one of
the boats and I had trouble showing him where the remains of the tie was on
the inside joint. It was invisible. Perhaps my fillets are bigger (messier)
than yours.
Oh the advantages of a workboat finish!! = Stealth technology!! }8?>
regards
Paul-NZ
I've built 4 boats using the plastic wire ties including my Nymph and the
20' Folic2. The Frolic had a fair about of twist in the bow panels so I put
them about 3" inches apart and doubled them up in places. The secret is to
pull them up just snug and when the entire boat is stiched together, go
along and snug them up a little more. After about 3 or 4 passes, everything
is nice and tight. After make sure of alignment, I then glue it together
between the ties with thickned epoxy using wood flour to the consistancy of
peanut butter.
The next day you can carefully cut and remove the ties and put in more
thickened epoxy where the ties where located. Then light sand it smooth
which doesn't take much then the fiberglass tape and epoxy. Any globs on
the inside can then be quickly removed with a sharp chiesel and hammer.
They are generally very thin and pop of instantly. If they are real big
where you had to fill a gap, use heat.
I tried using tape on the inside but it usually pushes out to make a flatten
out glob and harder to remove. Without tape, you can knock of the excess
very easy.
My method anyway.
Jeff
20' Folic2. The Frolic had a fair about of twist in the bow panels so I put
them about 3" inches apart and doubled them up in places. The secret is to
pull them up just snug and when the entire boat is stiched together, go
along and snug them up a little more. After about 3 or 4 passes, everything
is nice and tight. After make sure of alignment, I then glue it together
between the ties with thickned epoxy using wood flour to the consistancy of
peanut butter.
The next day you can carefully cut and remove the ties and put in more
thickened epoxy where the ties where located. Then light sand it smooth
which doesn't take much then the fiberglass tape and epoxy. Any globs on
the inside can then be quickly removed with a sharp chiesel and hammer.
They are generally very thin and pop of instantly. If they are real big
where you had to fill a gap, use heat.
I tried using tape on the inside but it usually pushes out to make a flatten
out glob and harder to remove. Without tape, you can knock of the excess
very easy.
My method anyway.
Jeff
I was very leery of the ties myself, but after using them, the 4"
ones are now a part of the tool box. They are only about 1/8 in wide
x 1/16 thick, and don't require much of a hole. I have done the wire
thing, with quite a bit of blood spilled to the twisted ends
afterwards. I will use the ties unless I need to really crank some
ply into place....here wire is supreme.
Steve
http://lewisboatworks.com
SNIP
ones are now a part of the tool box. They are only about 1/8 in wide
x 1/16 thick, and don't require much of a hole. I have done the wire
thing, with quite a bit of blood spilled to the twisted ends
afterwards. I will use the ties unless I need to really crank some
ply into place....here wire is supreme.
Steve
http://lewisboatworks.com
SNIP
> I have seen zip ties substituted for copper wire on some websitesfishing
> I've been to. Seems like they would be bulky when trying to cover
> the inside of the joint with fillet material. I figured that
> line was worth a try.looks
>
> The frames on this boat are light!!! I had some trouble keeping
> everything straight during assembly. Frame number two ended up a
> couple inches out of line by the time I got the bottom fastened to
> the bow transom. I got it repositioned, though, and everything
> functional.to
>
> I'll have to get the boat built and weigh it (weight is important
> me on this project) but I'm thinking if I had it to do over againI'd
> try 3/8" ply for the frames. The three frames don't add up to thatof
> much wood, and I think the extra weight would be justified by ease
> assembly. Thoughts?tomorrow.
>
> I'm going to take a break today, and perhaps start glassing
>
> gbb
Good comments all around.
I had to LOL when I read about the hot melt fiasco - sounds like
something that would happen to me!!! Funny thing is, I thought about
hot melt, and nearly reached for it. As Larry pointed out, an
incident like this is not funny unless it happens in someone else's
shop.
I also like the idea of "spot welding" joints with dabs of epoxy -
that would allow use of temporary cleats for forming the hull. They
could be removed once the welds had cured. I think that the 'welds'
would need to be sustantial, though, so as to avoid the sort of parts
explosion lbarker experienced.
One thing I thought about while stitching was that you would NOT want
to have your face in the way if the bottom-to-bow transom joint
suddenly popped loose. An accident like that might ruin your day.
Payson warns us about stiffening the frames... perhaps I should have
been more thorough in that regard. I have to admit that lack of
clamps prevented me from doing some things that plainly needed doing.
As to taking the stitches out, one advantage to my fishing line
method is that there is very little in the way on the inside, and the
line on the outside will sand right off. On the other hand, twisting
a single loop of wire would surely be much easier than running
multiple loops of mono and tying a knot. Obviously there is plenty
of room in this craft for innovation and individuality.
Cheers!
gbb
I had to LOL when I read about the hot melt fiasco - sounds like
something that would happen to me!!! Funny thing is, I thought about
hot melt, and nearly reached for it. As Larry pointed out, an
incident like this is not funny unless it happens in someone else's
shop.
I also like the idea of "spot welding" joints with dabs of epoxy -
that would allow use of temporary cleats for forming the hull. They
could be removed once the welds had cured. I think that the 'welds'
would need to be sustantial, though, so as to avoid the sort of parts
explosion lbarker experienced.
One thing I thought about while stitching was that you would NOT want
to have your face in the way if the bottom-to-bow transom joint
suddenly popped loose. An accident like that might ruin your day.
Payson warns us about stiffening the frames... perhaps I should have
been more thorough in that regard. I have to admit that lack of
clamps prevented me from doing some things that plainly needed doing.
As to taking the stitches out, one advantage to my fishing line
method is that there is very little in the way on the inside, and the
line on the outside will sand right off. On the other hand, twisting
a single loop of wire would surely be much easier than running
multiple loops of mono and tying a knot. Obviously there is plenty
of room in this craft for innovation and individuality.
Cheers!
gbb
--- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
> I had much the same experience -- you'd have to be a better nailer
than I to
> put those fine nails through that dense luan. Tried the hot glue
suggested
> somewhere ... got the whole thing glued up and it collapsed/sprung
into
> individual pieces in one memorable move. That sort of thing is a
lot
> funnier on TV than in my garage. Ended up stitching with both wire
and
> plastic wire ties. Worked fine. As to the frames, I seem to
remember
> temporarily doubling them up with some scrap to keep them from
flexing.
>
> In the end I think you'll really enjoy your Nymph. It's a nice
looking
> boat and, although it's tippy when you are getting in, once in it's
stable
> and sails nicely too.
>
> BTW, if you're going to build the sailing rig (and I recommend that
you do)
> I really suggest taking the add'l time to build a swing-up rudder.
It's
> tough to launch the sailing version from the beach otherwise. The
slip-on
> lee board isn't a problem.
>
> Congratulations on your project.
> Larry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gbb132000" <gbb132000@y...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 5:46 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Nymph Update
>
>
> OK. Several days and uncounted hours later, the bare hull has been
> erected. No epoxy or glass yet. but all the parts are in place more
> or less as intended.
>
> This turned in to something of an adventure. Darned if I can see
how
> the critical joints could be held together with nails alone. I'm
> talking about where the various panels meet the bow and stern
> transoms. Nailing into the end grain of 1/4" plywood is not a very
> secure method.
>
> Payson mentions this in his book, and suggests using temporary
cleats
> to receive the nails. But wouldn't they be in the way when you flip
> the boat for fillets and glass??
>
> I ended up stitching many of the seams in the boat. <snip>
That is how I have always done it, Get it altogether, with wires , tie
wraps sometimes a #10 carriage screw with big washers to get the sides
to line up, then epoxy and thickener in the gap between whatever is
holding the sides together. When it hardens pull all the tiewraps etc
and epoxy where they were. Then sand and lay down the outside tape.
After that it is a hull.
I also use cleats held to the frames with sheet rock screws and fasten
the sides to the cleats with sheet rock screws also. It is easy to fill
the holes in the sides after removing the screws when you are doing
other fairing before glassing.
HJ
Richard Spelling wrote:
wraps sometimes a #10 carriage screw with big washers to get the sides
to line up, then epoxy and thickener in the gap between whatever is
holding the sides together. When it hardens pull all the tiewraps etc
and epoxy where they were. Then sand and lay down the outside tape.
After that it is a hull.
I also use cleats held to the frames with sheet rock screws and fasten
the sides to the cleats with sheet rock screws also. It is easy to fill
the holes in the sides after removing the screws when you are doing
other fairing before glassing.
HJ
Richard Spelling wrote:
>Why is everyone leaving the stitches in? I put enough epoxy on to spot well
>the hull together, pull the stitches, and tape the outside chines.
>
>Don't have to worry about grinding them down, or worry about them screwing
>up the nice clean fillet on the inside.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "dnjost" <djost@...>
>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:24 PM
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Nymph Update
>
>
>That is a good question regarding holding the whole thing together.
>I recall that i temporarily held the frames in place by screwing a
>small pieces of pine to both sides of the frames and placed a couple
>of screws from the exterior into it. Copper wire would work well
>too. It can be readily depressed and then the schmutz put in place
>before the glass . On the exterior they become invisible with the
>help of a quick pass of the belt sander.
>
> I do remember dropping the whole boat prior to glassing and
>punching a very nice hole in it. It was relatively simple to fix,
>but irritated me to no end.
>
>David Jost
>
Why is everyone leaving the stitches in? I put enough epoxy on to spot well
the hull together, pull the stitches, and tape the outside chines.
Don't have to worry about grinding them down, or worry about them screwing
up the nice clean fillet on the inside.
the hull together, pull the stitches, and tape the outside chines.
Don't have to worry about grinding them down, or worry about them screwing
up the nice clean fillet on the inside.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dnjost" <djost@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:24 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Nymph Update
That is a good question regarding holding the whole thing together.
I recall that i temporarily held the frames in place by screwing a
small pieces of pine to both sides of the frames and placed a couple
of screws from the exterior into it. Copper wire would work well
too. It can be readily depressed and then the schmutz put in place
before the glass . On the exterior they become invisible with the
help of a quick pass of the belt sander.
I do remember dropping the whole boat prior to glassing and
punching a very nice hole in it. It was relatively simple to fix,
but irritated me to no end.
David Jost
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That is a good question regarding holding the whole thing together.
I recall that i temporarily held the frames in place by screwing a
small pieces of pine to both sides of the frames and placed a couple
of screws from the exterior into it. Copper wire would work well
too. It can be readily depressed and then the schmutz put in place
before the glass . On the exterior they become invisible with the
help of a quick pass of the belt sander.
I do remember dropping the whole boat prior to glassing and
punching a very nice hole in it. It was relatively simple to fix,
but irritated me to no end.
David Jost
I recall that i temporarily held the frames in place by screwing a
small pieces of pine to both sides of the frames and placed a couple
of screws from the exterior into it. Copper wire would work well
too. It can be readily depressed and then the schmutz put in place
before the glass . On the exterior they become invisible with the
help of a quick pass of the belt sander.
I do remember dropping the whole boat prior to glassing and
punching a very nice hole in it. It was relatively simple to fix,
but irritated me to no end.
David Jost
I had much the same experience -- you'd have to be a better nailer than I to
put those fine nails through that dense luan. Tried the hot glue suggested
somewhere ... got the whole thing glued up and it collapsed/sprung into
individual pieces in one memorable move. That sort of thing is a lot
funnier on TV than in my garage. Ended up stitching with both wire and
plastic wire ties. Worked fine. As to the frames, I seem to remember
temporarily doubling them up with some scrap to keep them from flexing.
In the end I think you'll really enjoy your Nymph. It's a nice looking
boat and, although it's tippy when you are getting in, once in it's stable
and sails nicely too.
BTW, if you're going to build the sailing rig (and I recommend that you do)
I really suggest taking the add'l time to build a swing-up rudder. It's
tough to launch the sailing version from the beach otherwise. The slip-on
lee board isn't a problem.
Congratulations on your project.
Larry
put those fine nails through that dense luan. Tried the hot glue suggested
somewhere ... got the whole thing glued up and it collapsed/sprung into
individual pieces in one memorable move. That sort of thing is a lot
funnier on TV than in my garage. Ended up stitching with both wire and
plastic wire ties. Worked fine. As to the frames, I seem to remember
temporarily doubling them up with some scrap to keep them from flexing.
In the end I think you'll really enjoy your Nymph. It's a nice looking
boat and, although it's tippy when you are getting in, once in it's stable
and sails nicely too.
BTW, if you're going to build the sailing rig (and I recommend that you do)
I really suggest taking the add'l time to build a swing-up rudder. It's
tough to launch the sailing version from the beach otherwise. The slip-on
lee board isn't a problem.
Congratulations on your project.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "gbb132000" <gbb132000@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 5:46 AM
Subject: [bolger] Nymph Update
OK. Several days and uncounted hours later, the bare hull has been
erected. No epoxy or glass yet. but all the parts are in place more
or less as intended.
This turned in to something of an adventure. Darned if I can see how
the critical joints could be held together with nails alone. I'm
talking about where the various panels meet the bow and stern
transoms. Nailing into the end grain of 1/4" plywood is not a very
secure method.
Payson mentions this in his book, and suggests using temporary cleats
to receive the nails. But wouldn't they be in the way when you flip
the boat for fillets and glass??
I ended up stitching many of the seams in the boat. <snip>
OK. Several days and uncounted hours later, the bare hull has been
erected. No epoxy or glass yet. but all the parts are in place more
or less as intended.
This turned in to something of an adventure. Darned if I can see how
the critical joints could be held together with nails alone. I'm
talking about where the various panels meet the bow and stern
transoms. Nailing into the end grain of 1/4" plywood is not a very
secure method.
Payson mentions this in his book, and suggests using temporary cleats
to receive the nails. But wouldn't they be in the way when you flip
the boat for fillets and glass??
I ended up stitching many of the seams in the boat. Not having any
suitable copper wire on hand, I used 20 pound monofiliment fishing
line. I would make several loops through a given pair of holes, and
then yank the line tight and secure it with a double overhand knot.
Actually a surgeon's knot, where the first overhand is tripled so as
to hold better while you do the second one. It worked quite well,
though it was tedious, and my fingers are sore from the line. Next
time it's either heavier line, or copper wire.
I have seen zip ties substituted for copper wire on some websites
I've been to. Seems like they would be bulky when trying to cover
the inside of the joint with fillet material. I figured that fishing
line was worth a try.
The frames on this boat are light!!! I had some trouble keeping
everything straight during assembly. Frame number two ended up a
couple inches out of line by the time I got the bottom fastened to
the bow transom. I got it repositioned, though, and everything looks
functional.
I'll have to get the boat built and weigh it (weight is important to
me on this project) but I'm thinking if I had it to do over again I'd
try 3/8" ply for the frames. The three frames don't add up to that
much wood, and I think the extra weight would be justified by ease of
assembly. Thoughts?
I'm going to take a break today, and perhaps start glassing tomorrow.
gbb
erected. No epoxy or glass yet. but all the parts are in place more
or less as intended.
This turned in to something of an adventure. Darned if I can see how
the critical joints could be held together with nails alone. I'm
talking about where the various panels meet the bow and stern
transoms. Nailing into the end grain of 1/4" plywood is not a very
secure method.
Payson mentions this in his book, and suggests using temporary cleats
to receive the nails. But wouldn't they be in the way when you flip
the boat for fillets and glass??
I ended up stitching many of the seams in the boat. Not having any
suitable copper wire on hand, I used 20 pound monofiliment fishing
line. I would make several loops through a given pair of holes, and
then yank the line tight and secure it with a double overhand knot.
Actually a surgeon's knot, where the first overhand is tripled so as
to hold better while you do the second one. It worked quite well,
though it was tedious, and my fingers are sore from the line. Next
time it's either heavier line, or copper wire.
I have seen zip ties substituted for copper wire on some websites
I've been to. Seems like they would be bulky when trying to cover
the inside of the joint with fillet material. I figured that fishing
line was worth a try.
The frames on this boat are light!!! I had some trouble keeping
everything straight during assembly. Frame number two ended up a
couple inches out of line by the time I got the bottom fastened to
the bow transom. I got it repositioned, though, and everything looks
functional.
I'll have to get the boat built and weigh it (weight is important to
me on this project) but I'm thinking if I had it to do over again I'd
try 3/8" ply for the frames. The three frames don't add up to that
much wood, and I think the extra weight would be justified by ease of
assembly. Thoughts?
I'm going to take a break today, and perhaps start glassing tomorrow.
gbb