Re: CHAMPLAIGN on ebay
Hey John, Never take anything I say too seriously. I totally agree
with all your comments.
I received the Nortel stock when BCE did a two for one split, so it
cost me nothing. And when it hit $70 a share I sold off half of it
and bought 41/2 acres of land in the Crowsnest Pass area of Alberta.
This was recently assessed at over 100 K and going up - so I did not
do too bad on the deal, even though Nortel peaked out at $128 a share.
BTW Nortel is going to make a comeback if they hang onto their stake
in the fiber optics market. That is eventually going to be huge.
Then I sell it and build Fiji.
with all your comments.
I received the Nortel stock when BCE did a two for one split, so it
cost me nothing. And when it hit $70 a share I sold off half of it
and bought 41/2 acres of land in the Crowsnest Pass area of Alberta.
This was recently assessed at over 100 K and going up - so I did not
do too bad on the deal, even though Nortel peaked out at $128 a share.
BTW Nortel is going to make a comeback if they hang onto their stake
in the fiber optics market. That is eventually going to be huge.
Then I sell it and build Fiji.
--- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> I'm sorry Nels, I have a brother in law(married to my sister)who
is
> an electronics engineer with his own consulting firm and countless
> patents in his name. Frank warned me 2 years before the bust
started
> that very few tech stocks would hold their inflated value. I am
> storing one of his large power boats at my lake house now.
>
> That is why I speculated in real estate. Nels not everyone has
> inside information but all Bolger builders have good sense and
> understand the value of a dollar. Anyone who goes to a super yacht
> boat yard with plans for a Champlaign must have a clear view
through
> both ears.
>
> The stock comment was out of place and I am very sorry. But
someone
> losing 45K on a boat in one year has no excuse unlike the stock
> market dabbler who takes advise from brokers and analysts.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> > --- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> > > The owner was
> > > probably heavily invested in tech stocks also.
> > >
> > > John
> >
> > You sure know to hurt a guy don't you?:-(
> >
> > Nels (Still holding on to his Nortel stock at 25 cents.)
> > >
> > >
Another sad thing about the Florida Champlain, is that they seem to
have omitted the 'raised floor' in the center of the boat [for
holding tanks and batteries]. This causes the berths/seats to drop
lower by 12 inches, so that while seated you can no longer look out
the windows. One of the major appeals to me of Champlain is the
wonderful 300 degree view you can have from the 'stateroom', and that
is lost in this Florida boat because of the elimination of the raised
floor.
have omitted the 'raised floor' in the center of the boat [for
holding tanks and batteries]. This causes the berths/seats to drop
lower by 12 inches, so that while seated you can no longer look out
the windows. One of the major appeals to me of Champlain is the
wonderful 300 degree view you can have from the 'stateroom', and that
is lost in this Florida boat because of the elimination of the raised
floor.
If I recall correctly, the guy had the Champlaign professionally built. Is
it possible that "cost overruns" drove the price up, and in the end the
poor fellow got stuck paying the bill? Its sad when it happens, but I see
it every day here in the programming world. Programmer A say's
optimistically, Oh I can write that HR program in a month. Six full time
months later he is finally pushed out an Alpha version....
At 08:21 AM 11/26/2002 -0500, you wrote:
it possible that "cost overruns" drove the price up, and in the end the
poor fellow got stuck paying the bill? Its sad when it happens, but I see
it every day here in the programming world. Programmer A say's
optimistically, Oh I can write that HR program in a month. Six full time
months later he is finally pushed out an Alpha version....
At 08:21 AM 11/26/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >But someone
> >> losing 45K on a boat in one year has no excuse unlike the stock
> >> market dabbler who takes advise from brokers and analysts.
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >I don't know, maybe he got his advice here. ;0)
> >
> >His "loss" isn't all that bad, really. They used to say you lost 50%
> >of the value of a car, just driving it off the lot. These days it
> >doesn't seem to be that bad. None the less, do we know why he is
> >selling, is it health or something, rather than poor judgement about
> >his aims.
>
>"Will trade up or down for airplane or RV" Sounds like the seller is
>in pretty good health. Perhaps the seller inherited the boat.
>
>As far as the loss goes, I believe the figure commonly quoted for
>cars is 20% just to drive it off the lot. I'd certainly question the
>judgement of someone who drove a $35K SUV home from the dealership,
>and then parked it in the driveway and put a "For Sale - $28K" sign
>on it. I'd think them no less silly if they drove the thing for a
>year and then put a "For Sale - $17K" sign on it. If this list's
>ongoing debate is any measure, it seems a lot of people are too busy
>making money to enjoy the pleasure of working for free. That being a
>the case, it's seems a terrible shame to squander one's money on
>things you don't really want.
>
>YIBB,
>
>David
>--
>
>C.E.P.
>415 W.46th Street
>New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
>Mobile (646) 325-8325
>Office (212) 247-0296
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
It seems to me that the published cost of the first Retriever was
about $75,000. These things are damned expensive to have
professionally built.
I suspect the Champlain has $15-20K on the materials budget. Remember
that this includes not just the ply and an eighth of a ton of epoxy,
but also the cushions and curtains, the expensive engine, a lot of
expensive paint. That leaves, say 1000 hrs @$40/hour. Remember that
the $40/hr rate carries the overhead to rent and heat the shop, so
the boat builder is not making a high hourly wage. Juggle the numbers
how you will, it's a lot.
Peter
about $75,000. These things are damned expensive to have
professionally built.
I suspect the Champlain has $15-20K on the materials budget. Remember
that this includes not just the ply and an eighth of a ton of epoxy,
but also the cushions and curtains, the expensive engine, a lot of
expensive paint. That leaves, say 1000 hrs @$40/hour. Remember that
the $40/hr rate carries the overhead to rent and heat the shop, so
the boat builder is not making a high hourly wage. Juggle the numbers
how you will, it's a lot.
Peter
>But someone"Will trade up or down for airplane or RV" Sounds like the seller is
>> losing 45K on a boat in one year has no excuse unlike the stock
>> market dabbler who takes advise from brokers and analysts.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>I don't know, maybe he got his advice here. ;0)
>
>His "loss" isn't all that bad, really. They used to say you lost 50%
>of the value of a car, just driving it off the lot. These days it
>doesn't seem to be that bad. None the less, do we know why he is
>selling, is it health or something, rather than poor judgement about
>his aims.
in pretty good health. Perhaps the seller inherited the boat.
As far as the loss goes, I believe the figure commonly quoted for
cars is 20% just to drive it off the lot. I'd certainly question the
judgement of someone who drove a $35K SUV home from the dealership,
and then parked it in the driveway and put a "For Sale - $28K" sign
on it. I'd think them no less silly if they drove the thing for a
year and then put a "For Sale - $17K" sign on it. If this list's
ongoing debate is any measure, it seems a lot of people are too busy
making money to enjoy the pleasure of working for free. That being a
the case, it's seems a terrible shame to squander one's money on
things you don't really want.
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
I'm glad you brought up Devlin Boats.He has been demonstrating
successfully for a fair number of years just how nice a plywood boat
can be if well built.In his case,when I say "well built",I do not
mean to imply that any other way is not also well built, but rather
he has maintained a nice balance between "modern" building techniques
all the while hanging onto some"traditional" touches which apparently
strike many pleassent chords for some buyers.Furthermore,his crew
have acquired the needed experience to really pay attention to
potential trouble areas thus ensuring,to a large extent, a trouble
free product for their customers.Being able to show potential
customers examples of your work that are say over 10 years old yet
look "new" goes a long way toward gaining confidence and calming
fears about typical wooden boat problems like leaky hulls,decks and
windows along with never ending varnishing......
It is unfortunate that there exists a common perception that if it is
built by a professional yard,then it is good but if amateur
built,then be wary.I have seen many amateur built products that
literally surpass anything commercially produced yet hardly gain
solid recognition,where it counts, come sale time.
Education,or rather lack there of,is part of the problem.The other
problem,I believe,lays with the consumer notion of warrenty and
liability. It is relatively easy to haul the boat back to the dealer
and say"fix it or else I'll call my solicitor" and usually the bill
of sale spells out each parties responsabilty. It is not so clear
with regards to someone buying an amateur built boat out of someones
driveway that there will be "after sale service".The new owner is
pretty much left up to his own devices when dealing with any "future"
work.
Perhaps the best way for the amateur to avoid heartbreak is to simply
build his boat,to the best of his abilities,and to do so as if he
were building for a"life-time" without any serious thought ever given
to selling her.If and when the day comes to sell,use only the
material costs for establishing a fair price.Your time was/is just
that,your time.When friends asked me how long it took to build my
Micro,they were always surprised when I told them a year and a half
part time labour.They also always walked away wondering when I
reminded them that it would have also taken me a year and a half NOT
to build her..............
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,encouraging all amateur builders to do their best work
for themselves,from along the shores of the chilly
St.Lawrence........
successfully for a fair number of years just how nice a plywood boat
can be if well built.In his case,when I say "well built",I do not
mean to imply that any other way is not also well built, but rather
he has maintained a nice balance between "modern" building techniques
all the while hanging onto some"traditional" touches which apparently
strike many pleassent chords for some buyers.Furthermore,his crew
have acquired the needed experience to really pay attention to
potential trouble areas thus ensuring,to a large extent, a trouble
free product for their customers.Being able to show potential
customers examples of your work that are say over 10 years old yet
look "new" goes a long way toward gaining confidence and calming
fears about typical wooden boat problems like leaky hulls,decks and
windows along with never ending varnishing......
It is unfortunate that there exists a common perception that if it is
built by a professional yard,then it is good but if amateur
built,then be wary.I have seen many amateur built products that
literally surpass anything commercially produced yet hardly gain
solid recognition,where it counts, come sale time.
Education,or rather lack there of,is part of the problem.The other
problem,I believe,lays with the consumer notion of warrenty and
liability. It is relatively easy to haul the boat back to the dealer
and say"fix it or else I'll call my solicitor" and usually the bill
of sale spells out each parties responsabilty. It is not so clear
with regards to someone buying an amateur built boat out of someones
driveway that there will be "after sale service".The new owner is
pretty much left up to his own devices when dealing with any "future"
work.
Perhaps the best way for the amateur to avoid heartbreak is to simply
build his boat,to the best of his abilities,and to do so as if he
were building for a"life-time" without any serious thought ever given
to selling her.If and when the day comes to sell,use only the
material costs for establishing a fair price.Your time was/is just
that,your time.When friends asked me how long it took to build my
Micro,they were always surprised when I told them a year and a half
part time labour.They also always walked away wondering when I
reminded them that it would have also taken me a year and a half NOT
to build her..............
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,encouraging all amateur builders to do their best work
for themselves,from along the shores of the chilly
St.Lawrence........
--- In bolger@y..., "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> > If you look at the the Devlin yard prices, 80K is not over the
moon.
> His 22' Surf Scooter is 29K. His Oysta 25, motor sailer is 92K.
His
> 20' Milly Hill barge (box) tug boat is 29K. Sure his boats are
> pretty, but that isn't where most of the money is going, except in
> the sense that I would be shocked if the 80K Champlain didn't also
> have a profesional grade finish on it. The little doodads that
make
> a Devlin box look yachty where the Bolger box (not classic) looks
> ugly, aren't the big cost items. For one thing, the Devlin boats
> have less parts in the hulls. Less messing around with lumber and
> gussets, makes for a nicer boat and a faster build.
>
> As we should all know, the finishing on plywood boats is a big cost
> item relative to the value of the boat. So we shouldn't be all
that
> surprised when the custom build cost is high.
>
> Also while a lot of us cut corners because we know what we can get
> away with, and we only have to please ourselves, with custom
plywood
> boats these days, brunzeel ply etc... is starting to run into real
> bucks, it isn't a cheap material, and it isn't cheap to work.
But someone
His "loss" isn't all that bad, really. They used to say you lost 50%
of the value of a car, just driving it off the lot. These days it
doesn't seem to be that bad. None the less, do we know why he is
selling, is it health or something, rather than poor judgement about
his aims.
If you look at the the Devlin yard prices, 80K is not over the moon.
His 22' Surf Scooter is 29K. His Oysta 25, motor sailer is 92K. His
20' Milly Hill barge (box) tug boat is 29K. Sure his boats are
pretty, but that isn't where most of the money is going, except in
the sense that I would be shocked if the 80K Champlain didn't also
have a profesional grade finish on it. The little doodads that make
a Devlin box look yachty where the Bolger box (not classic) looks
ugly, aren't the big cost items. For one thing, the Devlin boats
have less parts in the hulls. Less messing around with lumber and
gussets, makes for a nicer boat and a faster build.
As we should all know, the finishing on plywood boats is a big cost
item relative to the value of the boat. So we shouldn't be all that
surprised when the custom build cost is high.
Also while a lot of us cut corners because we know what we can get
away with, and we only have to please ourselves, with custom plywood
boats these days, brunzeel ply etc... is starting to run into real
bucks, it isn't a cheap material, and it isn't cheap to work.
> losing 45K on a boat in one year has no excuse unlike the stockI don't know, maybe he got his advice here. ;0)
> market dabbler who takes advise from brokers and analysts.
>
> John
>
>
His "loss" isn't all that bad, really. They used to say you lost 50%
of the value of a car, just driving it off the lot. These days it
doesn't seem to be that bad. None the less, do we know why he is
selling, is it health or something, rather than poor judgement about
his aims.
If you look at the the Devlin yard prices, 80K is not over the moon.
His 22' Surf Scooter is 29K. His Oysta 25, motor sailer is 92K. His
20' Milly Hill barge (box) tug boat is 29K. Sure his boats are
pretty, but that isn't where most of the money is going, except in
the sense that I would be shocked if the 80K Champlain didn't also
have a profesional grade finish on it. The little doodads that make
a Devlin box look yachty where the Bolger box (not classic) looks
ugly, aren't the big cost items. For one thing, the Devlin boats
have less parts in the hulls. Less messing around with lumber and
gussets, makes for a nicer boat and a faster build.
As we should all know, the finishing on plywood boats is a big cost
item relative to the value of the boat. So we shouldn't be all that
surprised when the custom build cost is high.
Also while a lot of us cut corners because we know what we can get
away with, and we only have to please ourselves, with custom plywood
boats these days, brunzeel ply etc... is starting to run into real
bucks, it isn't a cheap material, and it isn't cheap to work.
> As for the "market value" of a home built anything, you have twoschool of
> thoughts. The first are those clueless individuals that feel thata
> homebuilt "something" is worth far less than a commercial builtsomething
> of equal quality just because it was home built. Then there is thematerials.
> builder's thought that it is worth AT LEAST the value of the
In most cases materials are the high end!
I don't really consider myself a profesional at most of the
woodworking I do. But there comes a point when you have been doing
it longer and better than the pros, and I don't know what one calls
it at that point. There, ironicaly, is so much value attributed to
doing something for money in the current environment, at the time
that the quality of profesional hand work has largely plumeted.
David,
I think you are getting the required rationalization for I65 well in
place. Your obviously right that hobby hours can't be moniterised,
at least not easily.
For myself, I devide work into production and hobby work. Hobby work
is pure pleasure or creativity. Production is the work I have to do
to get something I "need". If I promise to make a house full of
furniture for my family, I may enjoy much of it, but it can very
easily be a nose to the grindstone activity when compared to
creatively experimenting with new furniture ideas I have of my own.
If after building the first chair, i have to nock out 5 more copies
just to call it a set, that's production, and I usualy end up using
different tools and skills to get there.
Today I have to shingle a roof on a shed I had to build to make a
place for my wood, to open out my shop, so I can get the space I need
to finish the projects I have promised. Am I having fun yet?
I think you are getting the required rationalization for I65 well in
place. Your obviously right that hobby hours can't be moniterised,
at least not easily.
For myself, I devide work into production and hobby work. Hobby work
is pure pleasure or creativity. Production is the work I have to do
to get something I "need". If I promise to make a house full of
furniture for my family, I may enjoy much of it, but it can very
easily be a nose to the grindstone activity when compared to
creatively experimenting with new furniture ideas I have of my own.
If after building the first chair, i have to nock out 5 more copies
just to call it a set, that's production, and I usualy end up using
different tools and skills to get there.
Today I have to shingle a roof on a shed I had to build to make a
place for my wood, to open out my shop, so I can get the space I need
to finish the projects I have promised. Am I having fun yet?
>of
> As you pointed out in an earlier post, there isn't really a "market
> price" for a Bolger boat, there being neither sufficient supply nor
> demand to constitute a market. I would offer that the same is true
> the labor (whether it be a man-weekend, or a man-year) that goesinto
> a home built boat.of
>
> Boat building hours do not convert into some nominal wage rate.
> Indeed, an hour spent hacking away at your dream may well make the
> time you spend slaving at your job more tolerable. If there is any
> conversion to be made, it is like to be something along the lines
> "X hours of boat building = Y hours of therapy"bargain to me.
>
> Even if the ratio is as low as "X/100 = Y" it still looks like a
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
> --
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296
I'm sorry Nels, I have a brother in law(married to my sister)who is
an electronics engineer with his own consulting firm and countless
patents in his name. Frank warned me 2 years before the bust started
that very few tech stocks would hold their inflated value. I am
storing one of his large power boats at my lake house now.
That is why I speculated in real estate. Nels not everyone has
inside information but all Bolger builders have good sense and
understand the value of a dollar. Anyone who goes to a super yacht
boat yard with plans for a Champlaign must have a clear view through
both ears.
The stock comment was out of place and I am very sorry. But someone
losing 45K on a boat in one year has no excuse unlike the stock
market dabbler who takes advise from brokers and analysts.
John
an electronics engineer with his own consulting firm and countless
patents in his name. Frank warned me 2 years before the bust started
that very few tech stocks would hold their inflated value. I am
storing one of his large power boats at my lake house now.
That is why I speculated in real estate. Nels not everyone has
inside information but all Bolger builders have good sense and
understand the value of a dollar. Anyone who goes to a super yacht
boat yard with plans for a Champlaign must have a clear view through
both ears.
The stock comment was out of place and I am very sorry. But someone
losing 45K on a boat in one year has no excuse unlike the stock
market dabbler who takes advise from brokers and analysts.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> > The owner was
> > probably heavily invested in tech stocks also.
> >
> > John
>
> You sure know to hurt a guy don't you?:-(
>
> Nels (Still holding on to his Nortel stock at 25 cents.)
> >
> >
--- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
Nels (Still holding on to his Nortel stock at 25 cents.)
> The owner wasYou sure know to hurt a guy don't you?:-(
> probably heavily invested in tech stocks also.
>
> John
Nels (Still holding on to his Nortel stock at 25 cents.)
>
>
I noticed a few items in the add that make me wonder. It states it
is "POWERED BY A 9.9 HP YAMAHA, TURNING A 13" PROPELLER. [ENGINE
RATED AT 30HP]". What type of additive is he using in the fuel to get
30 hp from a 9.9 Yamaha?
Someone has done a horrible disservice to this seller by making
countless thousands of dollars in profit for a 24ft cruiser. I am
sorry but at even the extravagant pricing at some boat yards we
seriously can't believe it cost near 80,000 to build this under
powered 24' wood boat covered in fiberglass that someone has told him
magically makes more horsepower.
I think I would be trying therapy but common sense is always beaten
by good sense. An elaborate well functioning sea going vessel could
have been built in the 40' range for that money. The owner was
probably heavily invested in tech stocks also.
John
is "POWERED BY A 9.9 HP YAMAHA, TURNING A 13" PROPELLER. [ENGINE
RATED AT 30HP]". What type of additive is he using in the fuel to get
30 hp from a 9.9 Yamaha?
Someone has done a horrible disservice to this seller by making
countless thousands of dollars in profit for a 24ft cruiser. I am
sorry but at even the extravagant pricing at some boat yards we
seriously can't believe it cost near 80,000 to build this under
powered 24' wood boat covered in fiberglass that someone has told him
magically makes more horsepower.
I think I would be trying therapy but common sense is always beaten
by good sense. An elaborate well functioning sea going vessel could
have been built in the 40' range for that money. The owner was
probably heavily invested in tech stocks also.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "s_paskey" <s_paskey@y...> wrote:
> For what it's worth, $35K is a long step down from where the seller
> used to be. The boat has been listed in the brokerage section at
> www.marine-concepts.com for most of this year. The seller started
at
> $59K, and the site now says that she's been reduced to $49K.
>
> Keep in mind that for ebay auctions, the minimum bid ($35K) and the
> reserve (the ACTUAL minimum the seller would accept) are not
> necessarily the same thing. I'd bet the real minimum at this point
> is still over $40K.
>
> Steve
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> > For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
> > > Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a
beautiful
> > example:
> > >
> > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> > ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271
Ya, me to, probably. But not a 24 footer...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michial Thompson (At Work)" <michialt@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: CHAMPLAIGN on ebay
> If I had $49k to spend on a boat I would save a lot of time and buy one
> that is already built....
>
> At 01:37 PM 11/25/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >If I had $49k to spend on a boat, I'd make a FIJI!
> >
If I had $49k to spend on a boat I would save a lot of time and buy one
that is already built....
At 01:37 PM 11/25/2002 -0600, you wrote:
that is already built....
At 01:37 PM 11/25/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>If I had $49k to spend on a boat, I'd make a FIJI!
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "s_paskey" <s_paskey@...>
>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:01 PM
>Subject: [bolger] Re: CHAMPLAIGN on ebay
>
>
> > For what it's worth, $35K is a long step down from where the seller
> > used to be. The boat has been listed in the brokerage section at
> > www.marine-concepts.com for most of this year. The seller started at
> > $59K, and the site now says that she's been reduced to $49K.
> >
> > Keep in mind that for ebay auctions, the minimum bid ($35K) and the
> > reserve (the ACTUAL minimum the seller would accept) are not
> > necessarily the same thing. I'd bet the real minimum at this point
> > is still over $40K.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> > > For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
> > > > Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a beautiful
> > > example:
> > > >
> > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> > > ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
If I had $49k to spend on a boat, I'd make a FIJI!
----- Original Message -----
From: "s_paskey" <s_paskey@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: CHAMPLAIGN on ebay
> For what it's worth, $35K is a long step down from where the seller
> used to be. The boat has been listed in the brokerage section at
> www.marine-concepts.com for most of this year. The seller started at
> $59K, and the site now says that she's been reduced to $49K.
>
> Keep in mind that for ebay auctions, the minimum bid ($35K) and the
> reserve (the ACTUAL minimum the seller would accept) are not
> necessarily the same thing. I'd bet the real minimum at this point
> is still over $40K.
>
> Steve
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> > For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
> > > Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a beautiful
> > example:
> > >
> > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> > ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
For what it's worth, $35K is a long step down from where the seller
used to be. The boat has been listed in the brokerage section at
www.marine-concepts.com for most of this year. The seller started at
$59K, and the site now says that she's been reduced to $49K.
Keep in mind that for ebay auctions, the minimum bid ($35K) and the
reserve (the ACTUAL minimum the seller would accept) are not
necessarily the same thing. I'd bet the real minimum at this point
is still over $40K.
Steve
used to be. The boat has been listed in the brokerage section at
www.marine-concepts.com for most of this year. The seller started at
$59K, and the site now says that she's been reduced to $49K.
Keep in mind that for ebay auctions, the minimum bid ($35K) and the
reserve (the ACTUAL minimum the seller would accept) are not
necessarily the same thing. I'd bet the real minimum at this point
is still over $40K.
Steve
--- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
> > Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a beautiful
> example:
> >
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271
He wants more than 35k, that is the opening bid and it has not met the
reserve.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cupp [mailto:caj@...]
Sent: 25 November 2002 13:30
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: CHAMPLAIGN on ebay
For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
reserve.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Cupp [mailto:caj@...]
Sent: 25 November 2002 13:30
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: CHAMPLAIGN on ebay
For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
--- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
> Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a beautiful
example:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> Even if the ratio is as low as "X/100 = Y" it still looks like abargain to me.
In his column in the Nov/Dec 2002 WoodenBoat, Pete Spectre quotes
Hoeward P. Johnson of the Antique Boat Center (Upper Marlboro,
Maryland) as saying of boat restoration: "Either way, to do it right
runs into thousands of hours, money, and quality materials. It is
extremely unlikely that you will get your money back in the short
run."
I say, "Hell, no one ever gets his money back out of boating." (Well,
almost no one.)
Peter
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
For endless hours of fulltime,full colour daydreaming about nice
things,you just have to get your hands on the latest issue of the
British mag. WATERCRAFT. The article about CHAMPLAIN is brief and
just a re-hashing of what already appeared in MAIB.
However,the full colour shot of FENESTRE chugging along under a
somewhat sullen sky......lets just say that since picking up my copy
yesterday afternoon, I am at the 17 hour mark of productive
daydreaming!!!
I will attempt to get this picture scanned this evening and post
it here so that more or us can have something to think about while
being otherwise"busy" :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,industrial strength daydreaming advocate about to hit
the 18 hour mark with CHAMPLAIN,along the shores of the
St.Lawrence............
> >Bruce,
> I scanned and enlarged the Bolger
> drawings of Champlain, and have them
> thumb tacked on my cubicle partition
> at work, for the 'daydream' effect
> Re: David's therapy equation above.
For endless hours of fulltime,full colour daydreaming about nice
things,you just have to get your hands on the latest issue of the
British mag. WATERCRAFT. The article about CHAMPLAIN is brief and
just a re-hashing of what already appeared in MAIB.
However,the full colour shot of FENESTRE chugging along under a
somewhat sullen sky......lets just say that since picking up my copy
yesterday afternoon, I am at the 17 hour mark of productive
daydreaming!!!
I will attempt to get this picture scanned this evening and post
it here so that more or us can have something to think about while
being otherwise"busy" :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,industrial strength daydreaming advocate about to hit
the 18 hour mark with CHAMPLAIN,along the shores of the
St.Lawrence............
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
adds an hour to my life.
That is the same Champlain that
was offered on eBay about two
months ago. I agree, $80K
invested is way more than I
would have guessed it would take.
I scanned and enlarged the Bolger
drawings of Champlain, and have them
thumb tacked on my cubicle partition
at work, for the 'daydream' effect
Re: David's therapy equation above.
> "X hours of boat building = Y hours of therapy"IMO, an hour of boatbuilding
adds an hour to my life.
That is the same Champlain that
was offered on eBay about two
months ago. I agree, $80K
invested is way more than I
would have guessed it would take.
I scanned and enlarged the Bolger
drawings of Champlain, and have them
thumb tacked on my cubicle partition
at work, for the 'daydream' effect
Re: David's therapy equation above.
I have a basic rule for calculating cost of my labor in a project. If I am
doing something that I do not want to do, or something that I HAVE to do,
then the cost of my labor is my current rate from my employer. If it's
something I want to do, or am doing because I enjoy it, then it's $0.00
As this applies to boat building, anything with fiberglass is costing me
BIG time, the rest of it is pretty much free.
As for the "market value" of a home built anything, you have two school of
thoughts. The first are those clueless individuals that feel that a
homebuilt "something" is worth far less than a commercial built something
of equal quality just because it was home built. Then there is the
builder's thought that it is worth AT LEAST the value of the materials.
Which is right, that depends on how bad the buyer wants to buy or the
seller wants to sell. If both are equal, then both are right.
At 09:54 AM 11/25/2002 -0500, you wrote:
doing something that I do not want to do, or something that I HAVE to do,
then the cost of my labor is my current rate from my employer. If it's
something I want to do, or am doing because I enjoy it, then it's $0.00
As this applies to boat building, anything with fiberglass is costing me
BIG time, the rest of it is pretty much free.
As for the "market value" of a home built anything, you have two school of
thoughts. The first are those clueless individuals that feel that a
homebuilt "something" is worth far less than a commercial built something
of equal quality just because it was home built. Then there is the
builder's thought that it is worth AT LEAST the value of the materials.
Which is right, that depends on how bad the buyer wants to buy or the
seller wants to sell. If both are equal, then both are right.
At 09:54 AM 11/25/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >>For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
> >
> >That would be 35 grand plus a man-year of labor.
> >
>
>Peter --
>
>As you pointed out in an earlier post, there isn't really a "market
>price" for a Bolger boat, there being neither sufficient supply nor
>demand to constitute a market. I would offer that the same is true of
>the labor (whether it be a man-weekend, or a man-year) that goes into
>a home built boat.
>
>Boat building hours do not convert into some nominal wage rate.
>Indeed, an hour spent hacking away at your dream may well make the
>time you spend slaving at your job more tolerable. If there is any
>conversion to be made, it is like to be something along the lines of
>"X hours of boat building = Y hours of therapy"
>
>Even if the ratio is as low as "X/100 = Y" it still looks like a bargain
>to me.
>
>YIBB,
>
>David
>--
>
>C.E.P.
>415 W.46th Street
>New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
>Mobile (646) 325-8325
>Office (212) 247-0296
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, JohnPeter --
>
>That would be 35 grand plus a man-year of labor.
>
As you pointed out in an earlier post, there isn't really a "market
price" for a Bolger boat, there being neither sufficient supply nor
demand to constitute a market. I would offer that the same is true of
the labor (whether it be a man-weekend, or a man-year) that goes into
a home built boat.
Boat building hours do not convert into some nominal wage rate.
Indeed, an hour spent hacking away at your dream may well make the
time you spend slaving at your job more tolerable. If there is any
conversion to be made, it is like to be something along the lines of
"X hours of boat building = Y hours of therapy"
Even if the ratio is as low as "X/100 = Y" it still looks like a bargain to me.
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
>For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, JohnThat would be 35 grand plus a man-year of labor.
David,
The boat is actually made of high quality plywood COVERED 100%
with fiberglass........
This boat has a most colourful history and is probably way past
the point for anyone to re-coup their investment.
Peter L.
The boat is actually made of high quality plywood COVERED 100%
with fiberglass........
This boat has a most colourful history and is probably way past
the point for anyone to re-coup their investment.
Peter L.
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
>
> If you read down, you'll see the boat is made of fiberglass, not
> plywood; and that the owner claims to have invested over $80,000 in
> the boat! Moreover, the boat was only completed a year ago. If he
> gets his $35K asking price, that means his year in the boat cost
him
> $50K, plus the aggravation of supervising its construction. Based
on
> Jeff Blunk's partial experience as well as Bill McKibben and Bob
> Wise's completed experiences, this boat could have been build
quickly
> and cheaply and then burned with the resulting loss far less than
> what the above owner has incurred
>
> I would not call this a "beautiful example". I'd call it a tragic
> example of needs and expectations being utterly mis-aligned with
the
> design. The resulting boat is not wanted by the man who had it
built,
> nor is it likely that it's wanted by anyone else, certainly not at
> the price being asked.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
> --
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296
>For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, JohnIf you read down, you'll see the boat is made of fiberglass, not
>
>
>--- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
>> Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a beautiful
>example:
plywood; and that the owner claims to have invested over $80,000 in
the boat! Moreover, the boat was only completed a year ago. If he
gets his $35K asking price, that means his year in the boat cost him
$50K, plus the aggravation of supervising its construction. Based on
Jeff Blunk's partial experience as well as Bill McKibben and Bob
Wise's completed experiences, this boat could have been build quickly
and cheaply and then burned with the resulting loss far less than
what the above owner has incurred
I would not call this a "beautiful example". I'd call it a tragic
example of needs and expectations being utterly mis-aligned with the
design. The resulting boat is not wanted by the man who had it built,
nor is it likely that it's wanted by anyone else, certainly not at
the price being asked.
YIBB,
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
For 35 grand I could build a very nice Illinois, John
--- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
> Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a beautiful
example:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271
Noticed this while poking around on ebay, looks to be a beautiful example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873394090&category=31271