Re: [bolger] Re: Sitka vs. Duck
Peter,
In all the conversation about outboard vs inboard, diesel vs gas, single or twin, the one quality
being searched for , it seems to me, is rock solid reliability.
Good filters in the fuel supply, good access to the engine, and use of that access on a regular basis
to pull the checks while underway or about to get underway are the things that make it work. As it
does for most of the small commercial vessels the world over.
Yamaha, or any other engine builder, makes engines that will run indefinitely if well maintained and
well fed, it is only we folk who don't accept the discipline required to preserve that reliability
that get cross threaded underway (with new stuff anyway).
I know that my posts occasionally, including this one, resonate with pomposity, but I don't believe,
having seen the kind of work that you do, that you need to worry very much about your new vessel
leaving you in the lurch on that Great Lakes runoff where you plan to navigate.And anyway she'd
look strange with a wee tiny sailing rig cobbled onto her.
Jim
"Peter Lenihan " wrote:
In all the conversation about outboard vs inboard, diesel vs gas, single or twin, the one quality
being searched for , it seems to me, is rock solid reliability.
Good filters in the fuel supply, good access to the engine, and use of that access on a regular basis
to pull the checks while underway or about to get underway are the things that make it work. As it
does for most of the small commercial vessels the world over.
Yamaha, or any other engine builder, makes engines that will run indefinitely if well maintained and
well fed, it is only we folk who don't accept the discipline required to preserve that reliability
that get cross threaded underway (with new stuff anyway).
I know that my posts occasionally, including this one, resonate with pomposity, but I don't believe,
having seen the kind of work that you do, that you need to worry very much about your new vessel
leaving you in the lurch on that Great Lakes runoff where you plan to navigate.And anyway she'd
look strange with a wee tiny sailing rig cobbled onto her.
Jim
"Peter Lenihan " wrote:
> Michael,
> Is it really just an either or situation? Have a look at this
> Bolger design:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/WINDERMERE%20Construction%
> 20photos/
>
> Lots of creature comforts there for your crew:-)
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael C. Kelly" <mikelly@a...>
> wrote:
> > " The Sitka Explorer is not only scaled up but beefed-up, but still
> much lighter in
> > construction and simpler/cheaper to build than the Diesel Duck,..."
> Sam
> >
>
> Bolger rules!!!
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> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
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> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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Michael, I certainly never meant to imply that the
Topaz and the Duck were comparable in capability. The
Duck, as you mention, is a heavy displacement cruiser.
The Topaz is a very small 31 footer, a big skiff
which can plane on 50 horsepower. I would not
hesitate to use my Topaz on an ICW cruise (I run mine
on lower Delaware Bay regularly, and this is about as
bad as it gets on the ICW) but you would certainly
have to be prepared to wait for you weather there, or
down the Chesapeake or Albemarle Sound, etc. The boat
is not a passagemaker.
On the other hand, the Topaz is trailerable
without a permit, draws less than a foot, and is
highly liveable compared with any other trailer
cruiser. She can be readily launched/retrieved by one
person. I would estimate her cost (without
trailer/motor) in the $3500 range (with fir
ply/epoxy). The effort required is infinitely less
than for a Duck.
The Sitka Explorer is a 38' boat. She also would
be much lighter/simpler/less capable than a Duck. PB
has not done a finished design--if he finishes her as
a light passagemaker, I believe he intends to have a
rockered bottom, designed to operate near hull speed
with a small diesel or high thrust outboard. Her
scantlings (if that term makes sense on a taped-seam
boat) would be about double Topaz. Bolger considers
her fit for pick-your-weather Carribean hops. Once
again, though, she is essentially a big skiff.
I love Buehler's stuff, but building a Duck is
beyond what I can do. I also think his heavy framing
makes sense for planked hulls, but doesn't take
advantage of the strengths of ply. I have not seen
the stitch-and-glue version of the Pilgrim. That
would make a neat boat--more boat than the Sitka
Explorer, but a different boat, too. Heavier, deeper.
I expect a high-sided, narrow-bottomed dory like the
Pilgrim, built stitch-and-glue, would require
considerable ballast to be comfortable.
I wish someone would commision the Sitka Explorer
to be completed. The Topaz was a snap to built, and
she should be, too. I may do it myself, as soon as my
Enron stock goes back up. Sam
--- "Michael C. Kelly" <mikelly@...> wrote:
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Topaz and the Duck were comparable in capability. The
Duck, as you mention, is a heavy displacement cruiser.
The Topaz is a very small 31 footer, a big skiff
which can plane on 50 horsepower. I would not
hesitate to use my Topaz on an ICW cruise (I run mine
on lower Delaware Bay regularly, and this is about as
bad as it gets on the ICW) but you would certainly
have to be prepared to wait for you weather there, or
down the Chesapeake or Albemarle Sound, etc. The boat
is not a passagemaker.
On the other hand, the Topaz is trailerable
without a permit, draws less than a foot, and is
highly liveable compared with any other trailer
cruiser. She can be readily launched/retrieved by one
person. I would estimate her cost (without
trailer/motor) in the $3500 range (with fir
ply/epoxy). The effort required is infinitely less
than for a Duck.
The Sitka Explorer is a 38' boat. She also would
be much lighter/simpler/less capable than a Duck. PB
has not done a finished design--if he finishes her as
a light passagemaker, I believe he intends to have a
rockered bottom, designed to operate near hull speed
with a small diesel or high thrust outboard. Her
scantlings (if that term makes sense on a taped-seam
boat) would be about double Topaz. Bolger considers
her fit for pick-your-weather Carribean hops. Once
again, though, she is essentially a big skiff.
I love Buehler's stuff, but building a Duck is
beyond what I can do. I also think his heavy framing
makes sense for planked hulls, but doesn't take
advantage of the strengths of ply. I have not seen
the stitch-and-glue version of the Pilgrim. That
would make a neat boat--more boat than the Sitka
Explorer, but a different boat, too. Heavier, deeper.
I expect a high-sided, narrow-bottomed dory like the
Pilgrim, built stitch-and-glue, would require
considerable ballast to be comfortable.
I wish someone would commision the Sitka Explorer
to be completed. The Topaz was a snap to built, and
she should be, too. I may do it myself, as soon as my
Enron stock goes back up. Sam
--- "Michael C. Kelly" <mikelly@...> wrote:
> " The Sitka Explorer is not only scaled up but__________________________________________________
> beefed-up, but still much lighter in
> construction and simpler/cheaper to build than the
> Diesel Duck,..." Sam
>
> I've not seen a drawing or site with info on the
> Sitka,(I sure would like to), but if it's a beefed
> up Topaz (3K displacement) it would need some
> serious steroids to comare with a Duck. What I'm
> saying is Topaz vs. Duck is like comparing a
> Canadian Goose with a Fat Parakeet. (NO flame
> intended - please read on).
>
>
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Michael,
Is it really just an either or situation? Have a look at this
Bolger design:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/WINDERMERE%20Construction%
20photos/
Lots of creature comforts there for your crew:-)
Peter Lenihan
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael C. Kelly" <mikelly@a...>
wrote:
Is it really just an either or situation? Have a look at this
Bolger design:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/WINDERMERE%20Construction%
20photos/
Lots of creature comforts there for your crew:-)
Peter Lenihan
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael C. Kelly" <mikelly@a...>
wrote:
> " The Sitka Explorer is not only scaled up but beefed-up, but stillmuch lighter in
> construction and simpler/cheaper to build than the Diesel Duck,..."Sam
>
" The Sitka Explorer is not only scaled up but beefed-up, but still much lighter in
construction and simpler/cheaper to build than the Diesel Duck,..." Sam
I've not seen a drawing or site with info on the Sitka,(I sure would like to), but if it's a beefed up Topaz (3K displacement) it would need some serious steroids to comare with a Duck. What I'm saying is Topaz vs. Duck is like comparing a Canadian Goose with a Fat Parakeet. (NO flame intended - please read on).
The Ducks, even the New mini 34, is an offshore passagemaker capable craft (25,ooo lbs displacement- that's light BTW), the most famous 38'Duck is a 32K displacement. Full displacement Ducks draft at 4-5 feet, the big 50' at 6' - which may be a bit hairy as a river boat).
Buehler's Pilgrim, which is the most comparable in cost/ease of construction with the imagined Sitka, is 11-13,000 lb. displacement, (about 3-4x the displacement of the Topaz- I would estimate) and can supposedly be built for $20k (without trailer) "stitch & glue". Pilgrims are super efficient, (5000-7000 miles on 100 gals of diesel.) They are designed for a 20HP diesel inboard (with prop protective keel and a barn door rudder), or a 25HP high thrust OB with low 2'5 draft- no keel.
Now, the questions come down to these for me (and others):
Is this the only Boat I plan to ever build? (Maybe,depends.)
Is it going to be a live aboard vessel used for extended periods? (Hope so!)
A retirement vessel / second home? ( Wouldn't that be great!)
Will we ever want to go offshore? (Yes at least 60 mile legs to/in the Carrib.)
If so, George says, "don't do the Pilgrim, go for a Duck or Alcina".
I think a Pilgrim would coast/ great loop better, it can be trailered (with a permit), and it could make Caribbean runs safely - although it would not be very comfortable for extended stays of 2 weeks or more).It could be built open cockpit first and add the pilothouse later.
IMO, the 31' Topaz is strictly a weekender/ river/soft lake boat, 2-4 days max. - with a visit to a Holiday Inn for the Wife unit - she's done with camping after 2-3 days, and that's at a nice campground. ( NOw that she's getting older (43), she's more into comfort, not me of course <grin>).
I say, (and that's why I'm looking at Bolger's), I figure the Topaz could cut the mustard on the Tenn-Tomm, and all of the rivers and lakes near me. I've been on Lake Erie in common 2-3' seas and it's rough - too rough for comfort in a Topaz, (and rolly at times in a Pilgrim). I'm trusting that a semi flat hull, with a strong motor could cut the 4 knot currents upstream on the Miss or Ohio. There are also sections of the ICW that sound a little hairy for a Topaz. We are 43, with teenagers so I have a way to go before full-time cruising.
Bottom Line:
Can I build a Topaz as a weekender (with trailer) for under $8K?
(Would the educational /pride value be worth it? Or would I swear never to try and build another boat in this life! If you have ever built a home, you'll understand- but this is much smaller than a home.)
If the Topaz can be built for under 8k, that's about 33% of a Pilgrim ($25K). Perhaps I should hold out, buy a used Pontoon for fresh water weekending? (At least I can sell that, home built woodies at $8k would seem hard to sell). Build the Pilgrim over 2 years, and worse case have a boat capable of 7-10 day offshore with sail backup and a dependable diesel. (Sailors, please ignore that last comment as I know, spending a month at full keel in a matchbox is something you guys enjoy).
Last, since 8K is about 25% of a small Duck (est. 35-40K), perhaps I should hold out for a Duck, and begin with a 3-5 year "pay-as-you go" building project? (Talk about delayed gratification!)
If the Sitka Explorer falls between the Topaz and the Pilgrim, I would REALLY like to look hard at it. It would need to be about 10k displacement, trailerable, shorter, livable, and cost less than 12k to build.
Oh the heck with it, maybe I should just focus on building a light Bolder rowing skiff this spring/summer to use as a yacht tender "someday"...
construction and simpler/cheaper to build than the Diesel Duck,..." Sam
I've not seen a drawing or site with info on the Sitka,(I sure would like to), but if it's a beefed up Topaz (3K displacement) it would need some serious steroids to comare with a Duck. What I'm saying is Topaz vs. Duck is like comparing a Canadian Goose with a Fat Parakeet. (NO flame intended - please read on).
The Ducks, even the New mini 34, is an offshore passagemaker capable craft (25,ooo lbs displacement- that's light BTW), the most famous 38'Duck is a 32K displacement. Full displacement Ducks draft at 4-5 feet, the big 50' at 6' - which may be a bit hairy as a river boat).
Buehler's Pilgrim, which is the most comparable in cost/ease of construction with the imagined Sitka, is 11-13,000 lb. displacement, (about 3-4x the displacement of the Topaz- I would estimate) and can supposedly be built for $20k (without trailer) "stitch & glue". Pilgrims are super efficient, (5000-7000 miles on 100 gals of diesel.) They are designed for a 20HP diesel inboard (with prop protective keel and a barn door rudder), or a 25HP high thrust OB with low 2'5 draft- no keel.
Now, the questions come down to these for me (and others):
Is this the only Boat I plan to ever build? (Maybe,depends.)
Is it going to be a live aboard vessel used for extended periods? (Hope so!)
A retirement vessel / second home? ( Wouldn't that be great!)
Will we ever want to go offshore? (Yes at least 60 mile legs to/in the Carrib.)
If so, George says, "don't do the Pilgrim, go for a Duck or Alcina".
I think a Pilgrim would coast/ great loop better, it can be trailered (with a permit), and it could make Caribbean runs safely - although it would not be very comfortable for extended stays of 2 weeks or more).It could be built open cockpit first and add the pilothouse later.
IMO, the 31' Topaz is strictly a weekender/ river/soft lake boat, 2-4 days max. - with a visit to a Holiday Inn for the Wife unit - she's done with camping after 2-3 days, and that's at a nice campground. ( NOw that she's getting older (43), she's more into comfort, not me of course <grin>).
I say, (and that's why I'm looking at Bolger's), I figure the Topaz could cut the mustard on the Tenn-Tomm, and all of the rivers and lakes near me. I've been on Lake Erie in common 2-3' seas and it's rough - too rough for comfort in a Topaz, (and rolly at times in a Pilgrim). I'm trusting that a semi flat hull, with a strong motor could cut the 4 knot currents upstream on the Miss or Ohio. There are also sections of the ICW that sound a little hairy for a Topaz. We are 43, with teenagers so I have a way to go before full-time cruising.
Bottom Line:
Can I build a Topaz as a weekender (with trailer) for under $8K?
(Would the educational /pride value be worth it? Or would I swear never to try and build another boat in this life! If you have ever built a home, you'll understand- but this is much smaller than a home.)
If the Topaz can be built for under 8k, that's about 33% of a Pilgrim ($25K). Perhaps I should hold out, buy a used Pontoon for fresh water weekending? (At least I can sell that, home built woodies at $8k would seem hard to sell). Build the Pilgrim over 2 years, and worse case have a boat capable of 7-10 day offshore with sail backup and a dependable diesel. (Sailors, please ignore that last comment as I know, spending a month at full keel in a matchbox is something you guys enjoy).
Last, since 8K is about 25% of a small Duck (est. 35-40K), perhaps I should hold out for a Duck, and begin with a 3-5 year "pay-as-you go" building project? (Talk about delayed gratification!)
If the Sitka Explorer falls between the Topaz and the Pilgrim, I would REALLY like to look hard at it. It would need to be about 10k displacement, trailerable, shorter, livable, and cost less than 12k to build.
Oh the heck with it, maybe I should just focus on building a light Bolder rowing skiff this spring/summer to use as a yacht tender "someday"...