Re: Rig Materials Advice Needed
The Cape Cod Frosty uses 1.5" closet rods for masts. We would
liberally apply resin to them so that the sail sleeve would pivot
around the mast rather than the mast rotating. Although the Frosty
does not have a sprit boom, it probably would benefit from it in that
the boom could be much higher and would not whack you in the throat
during a tack, or worse, knock you out of the boat. This would also
eliminate the vang! I have used aluminum shower rods for booms on my
Frosty, real light, but prone to corrosion (so I spend another $7.
To reef: one could wrap the sail around the mast a couple of times
and then reattach the sprit!
Hmm must be time to build another! "Where's the bondo, window
screening, and luan?"
David Jost
liberally apply resin to them so that the sail sleeve would pivot
around the mast rather than the mast rotating. Although the Frosty
does not have a sprit boom, it probably would benefit from it in that
the boom could be much higher and would not whack you in the throat
during a tack, or worse, knock you out of the boat. This would also
eliminate the vang! I have used aluminum shower rods for booms on my
Frosty, real light, but prone to corrosion (so I spend another $7.
To reef: one could wrap the sail around the mast a couple of times
and then reattach the sprit!
Hmm must be time to build another! "Where's the bondo, window
screening, and luan?"
David Jost
> Bruce Fountain <fountainb@s...> wrote:On Tuesday 14 January 200309:01, "Steven Lewis wrote:
> > Also, can you use awith
> > flexible metal cable as a snotter, or does it have to be rope? It
> > seems that keeping tension on the snotter is the biggest problem
> > the sprit rig, and eliminating line stretch would go a long way inposts
> > keeping steady, constant tension
>
> Use spectra cord, which doesn't stretch. It is very strong, so
> you can use fairly small diameter. You don't need much for
> the snotter.
>
> --
> Bruce Fountain (fountainb@s...)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
> Perth Western Australia
> tel: +618 9256 0083
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comService.
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Movies
> - What's on at your local cinema?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There isn't enough room for much more than a couple of turns of a thin line through a dumb sheave in most little sprits or a tiny block slung on a loop of line through a hole in the sprit,[unless you are rigging a Thames Sailing Barge]. Multiple turns allow sail flattening and really peaking that sprit up hard. If the sailmaker has sewn a good line into the head of the sail,it can be set up really taut which seems to be a good start to get this simple,but very subtle sail to perform at its best.
Most people who started out with sprits sort of slid into lugs of all types because of the difficulty of reefing a sprit underway and the nice ability to drop the entire lug in a crisis or to put in a reef at leisure.
That's where Bolger has really nailed it,the ability ,in his cat yawl /ketch designs to flatten the mizzen hard in ,dump the main and lie perfectly steady in a seaway while you attend to the housekeeping in the protected,steady,steering space. I sail alone,mostly and I value this ability over nearly all other design features. That, and having a single main to fiddle with. No headsail changes alone,far at sea,in deteriorating conditions,pitch black at 3am on a wet plunging foredeck. They don't mention this in the glossy brochures,do they? Performance isn't just pointing ability. Andy
Bruce Fountain <fountainb@...> wrote:On Wednesday 15 January 2003 16:16, "dbaldnz wrote:
to give you something to hold on to.
Actually, I don't think a little stretch in the snotter would make
that much difference.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Movies
- What's on at your local cinema?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Most people who started out with sprits sort of slid into lugs of all types because of the difficulty of reefing a sprit underway and the nice ability to drop the entire lug in a crisis or to put in a reef at leisure.
That's where Bolger has really nailed it,the ability ,in his cat yawl /ketch designs to flatten the mizzen hard in ,dump the main and lie perfectly steady in a seaway while you attend to the housekeeping in the protected,steady,steering space. I sail alone,mostly and I value this ability over nearly all other design features. That, and having a single main to fiddle with. No headsail changes alone,far at sea,in deteriorating conditions,pitch black at 3am on a wet plunging foredeck. They don't mention this in the glossy brochures,do they? Performance isn't just pointing ability. Andy
Bruce Fountain <fountainb@...> wrote:On Wednesday 15 January 2003 16:16, "dbaldnz wrote:
> Sure, a light spectra line will be plenty strong, except that aThis is for the snotter, not for the sheet. Put a bowline in the end
> comfortable rope diam. for human hands to comfortably pull may be
> more the determining factor. In my experience, the spectra sheathing
> has been rather harsh on the hands, though they may vary. It also
> chafes quite easily.
to give you something to hold on to.
Actually, I don't think a little stretch in the snotter would make
that much difference.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Movies
- What's on at your local cinema?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here is a site that will help make the choice of what type of
cordage you want in any application. It shows you what qualities each
type has and for what use it is best. Good Luck!
http://www.justsail.com/cordage_intro.htm
John
cordage you want in any application. It shows you what qualities each
type has and for what use it is best. Good Luck!
http://www.justsail.com/cordage_intro.htm
John
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Fountain <fountainb@s...> wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 January 2003 16:16, "dbaldnz wrote:
> > Sure, a light spectra line will be plenty strong, except that a
> > comfortable rope diam. for human hands to comfortably pull may be
> > more the determining factor. In my experience, the spectra
sheathing
> > has been rather harsh on the hands, though they may vary. It also
> > chafes quite easily.
>
> This is for the snotter, not for the sheet. Put a bowline in the end
> to give you something to hold on to.
>
> Actually, I don't think a little stretch in the snotter would make
> that much difference.
>
> --
> Bruce Fountain (fountainb@s...)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
> Perth Western Australia
> tel: +618 9256 0083
On Wednesday 15 January 2003 16:16, "dbaldnz wrote:
to give you something to hold on to.
Actually, I don't think a little stretch in the snotter would make
that much difference.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
> Sure, a light spectra line will be plenty strong, except that aThis is for the snotter, not for the sheet. Put a bowline in the end
> comfortable rope diam. for human hands to comfortably pull may be
> more the determining factor. In my experience, the spectra sheathing
> has been rather harsh on the hands, though they may vary. It also
> chafes quite easily.
to give you something to hold on to.
Actually, I don't think a little stretch in the snotter would make
that much difference.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
Sure, a light spectra line will be plenty strong, except that a
comfortable rope diam. for human hands to comfortably pull may be
more the determining factor. In my experience, the spectra sheathing
has been rather harsh on the hands, though they may vary. It also
chafes quite easily.
DonB
comfortable rope diam. for human hands to comfortably pull may be
more the determining factor. In my experience, the spectra sheathing
has been rather harsh on the hands, though they may vary. It also
chafes quite easily.
DonB
> Use spectra cord, which doesn't stretch. It is very strong, so
> you can use fairly small diameter. You don't need much for
> the snotter.
>
> --
> Bruce Fountain (fountainb@s...)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
> Perth Western Australia
> tel: +618 9256 0083
Performance,like success, is a pretty slippery term so you need to define what the desired outcomes you seek are before you can make a value judgement. Today,sailing performance seems to be defined in terms of speed or pointing ability. Nothing much about initial cost+ maintenance,ease of handling, sailing ability anywhere else but dead to windward and any number of other parameters you may want to factor in.
Best to read what Bolger has to say in "101 Boat Rigs" plus all the general discussion in the combined edition of Small Boats + The Folding Schooner.
Consider that the rig should match the style of the hull,the average sailing conditions at home waters and the performance of the crew.
The best all round sprit sails I ever had showed the same general proportions as a good gaff main . Foot and luff equal length,head 75%, Angle of head to projected mast ,30 deg. Sail was cut full and was very fast reaching and running with a good "lift" in big Pacific swells [I presume there was an upward component in the drive.]
Dont even try to out point a good bermudan rig,the sail will just cut 90 deg tacks,if the hull allows. 100 degrees lets you get back more than you lost by footing faster. Better to catch them on a reach and unless they are on a rocket ship,you may seriously threaten the basis of their sailing wisdom. Ask anybody who has blasted past a "proper yacht"in a square boat or sharpie with a four cornered sail + spinnaker..... the looks of dis belief are a rare treat!
Having adjustable peak sprit and sprit boom lets you play around with snotter tensions and sail fullness but I am reminded that I still have a sprit sail that was made dead flat by an awning maker 30 years ago and just goes like hell with no shape at all. Don't ask me,I just sail 'em..... Andy
"Steven Lewis <numbaoneman@...>" <numbaoneman@...>
wrote:Thanks a lot for the info!! Took about 4 readthroughs before I got it
all figured out, but I think I am tracking. What are the performance
penalties if the peak sprit flexes too much? How also, does the
height and angle of the peak sprit affect? If you go higher, with a
more accute angle (to the mast), does your performance get any better
from the better air higher up? Would it also induce more more heel,
but perform closer to a bermuda rig? I am also trying my hand at the
sail design, along with all the rest, and building a knowledge base
while I'm at it, so please bear with.
Steve
Best to read what Bolger has to say in "101 Boat Rigs" plus all the general discussion in the combined edition of Small Boats + The Folding Schooner.
Consider that the rig should match the style of the hull,the average sailing conditions at home waters and the performance of the crew.
The best all round sprit sails I ever had showed the same general proportions as a good gaff main . Foot and luff equal length,head 75%, Angle of head to projected mast ,30 deg. Sail was cut full and was very fast reaching and running with a good "lift" in big Pacific swells [I presume there was an upward component in the drive.]
Dont even try to out point a good bermudan rig,the sail will just cut 90 deg tacks,if the hull allows. 100 degrees lets you get back more than you lost by footing faster. Better to catch them on a reach and unless they are on a rocket ship,you may seriously threaten the basis of their sailing wisdom. Ask anybody who has blasted past a "proper yacht"in a square boat or sharpie with a four cornered sail + spinnaker..... the looks of dis belief are a rare treat!
Having adjustable peak sprit and sprit boom lets you play around with snotter tensions and sail fullness but I am reminded that I still have a sprit sail that was made dead flat by an awning maker 30 years ago and just goes like hell with no shape at all. Don't ask me,I just sail 'em..... Andy
"Steven Lewis <numbaoneman@...>" <numbaoneman@...>
wrote:Thanks a lot for the info!! Took about 4 readthroughs before I got it
all figured out, but I think I am tracking. What are the performance
penalties if the peak sprit flexes too much? How also, does the
height and angle of the peak sprit affect? If you go higher, with a
more accute angle (to the mast), does your performance get any better
from the better air higher up? Would it also induce more more heel,
but perform closer to a bermuda rig? I am also trying my hand at the
sail design, along with all the rest, and building a knowledge base
while I'm at it, so please bear with.
Steve
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, andy wilson <and46y@y...> wrote:
>
> If you are not into the last percentage of performance,almost any
dia or section that doesn't break will work . The costs of store
bought poles is so low that you can afford to mess about a bit and
join the rest of us in the odd,goofy errors
Snip!
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Movies
- What's on at your local cinema?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks, I'm finding that out.
Steve
Steve
> Use spectra cord, which doesn't stretch. It is very strong, so
> you can use fairly small diameter. You don't need much for
> the snotter.
>
> --
> Bruce Fountain (fountainb@s...)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
> Perth Western Australia
> tel: +618 9256 0083
Thanks a lot for the info!! Took about 4 readthroughs before I got it
all figured out, but I think I am tracking. What are the performance
penalties if the peak sprit flexes too much? How also, does the
height and angle of the peak sprit affect? If you go higher, with a
more accute angle (to the mast), does your performance get any better
from the better air higher up? Would it also induce more more heel,
but perform closer to a bermuda rig? I am also trying my hand at the
sail design, along with all the rest, and building a knowledge base
while I'm at it, so please bear with.
Steve
all figured out, but I think I am tracking. What are the performance
penalties if the peak sprit flexes too much? How also, does the
height and angle of the peak sprit affect? If you go higher, with a
more accute angle (to the mast), does your performance get any better
from the better air higher up? Would it also induce more more heel,
but perform closer to a bermuda rig? I am also trying my hand at the
sail design, along with all the rest, and building a knowledge base
while I'm at it, so please bear with.
Steve
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, andy wilson <and46y@y...> wrote:
>
> If you are not into the last percentage of performance,almost any
dia or section that doesn't break will work . The costs of store
bought poles is so low that you can afford to mess about a bit and
join the rest of us in the odd,goofy errors
Snip!
If you are not into the last percentage of performance,almost any dia or section that doesn't break will work . The costs of store bought poles is so low that you can afford to mess about a bit and join the rest of us in the odd,goofy errors
. Lawn mower starting cord sold in most hardware stores seems almost indestructable for such a small dia. The advantage of cord snotters is that you can play around with the draft[fullness] of the sail to suit more or less wind strength....full for light and flattened for progressively stronger. Rotating masts are a big advantage to keep the geometry constant. If they don't rotate,cleats can tear off or eye bolts generate splitting forces on the mast.
The problem with boomless sprit and lugs is that when running, two bad things will happen. [1] The clew of the sail does not go far out and forward enough, even with the widest sheeting position.This can allow the bottom part of the sail to get back winded and induce a horrendous jibe or series of jibes. A swim will result in a narrow craft. The sail cannot be fully let out so the choice is to tack downwind or set the sail over sheeted which slows the craft. [2] More difficult is that without a boom[ and some way of keeping the boom from rising when off the wind],the head of the sail will fall off to leeward and over-twist the sail. This causes unstable eddies to flow off the top of the sail and induce frightening rhythmical rolling which may interact with [1] to induce an out of control situation.
For the simplest fix,add a sprit boom and cord snotter thus turning the foot of the sail into a vang and keeping the set much flatter without so much twist at the head. For a closet pole,thumb cleat and some cord it is an easy fix and the whole exercise,plus playing around with tensions is a great hands- on way to understand how sails work and what the results are of making small changes
Bolger has enough details in lots of his earlier small boat designs to cover every possible situation. I am just re-cycling a bit of his material but I have to put my hands up to all the above disasters. Good thing our home waters are warm or I wouldn't be writing this! Go to it! Andy
Bruce Fountain <fountainb@...> wrote:On Tuesday 14 January 2003 09:01, "Steven Lewis wrote:
you can use fairly small diameter. You don't need much for
the snotter.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Movies
- What's on at your local cinema?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
. Lawn mower starting cord sold in most hardware stores seems almost indestructable for such a small dia. The advantage of cord snotters is that you can play around with the draft[fullness] of the sail to suit more or less wind strength....full for light and flattened for progressively stronger. Rotating masts are a big advantage to keep the geometry constant. If they don't rotate,cleats can tear off or eye bolts generate splitting forces on the mast.
The problem with boomless sprit and lugs is that when running, two bad things will happen. [1] The clew of the sail does not go far out and forward enough, even with the widest sheeting position.This can allow the bottom part of the sail to get back winded and induce a horrendous jibe or series of jibes. A swim will result in a narrow craft. The sail cannot be fully let out so the choice is to tack downwind or set the sail over sheeted which slows the craft. [2] More difficult is that without a boom[ and some way of keeping the boom from rising when off the wind],the head of the sail will fall off to leeward and over-twist the sail. This causes unstable eddies to flow off the top of the sail and induce frightening rhythmical rolling which may interact with [1] to induce an out of control situation.
For the simplest fix,add a sprit boom and cord snotter thus turning the foot of the sail into a vang and keeping the set much flatter without so much twist at the head. For a closet pole,thumb cleat and some cord it is an easy fix and the whole exercise,plus playing around with tensions is a great hands- on way to understand how sails work and what the results are of making small changes
Bolger has enough details in lots of his earlier small boat designs to cover every possible situation. I am just re-cycling a bit of his material but I have to put my hands up to all the above disasters. Good thing our home waters are warm or I wouldn't be writing this! Go to it! Andy
Bruce Fountain <fountainb@...> wrote:On Tuesday 14 January 2003 09:01, "Steven Lewis wrote:
> Also, can you use aUse spectra cord, which doesn't stretch. It is very strong, so
> flexible metal cable as a snotter, or does it have to be rope? It
> seems that keeping tension on the snotter is the biggest problem with
> the sprit rig, and eliminating line stretch would go a long way in
> keeping steady, constant tension
you can use fairly small diameter. You don't need much for
the snotter.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Movies
- What's on at your local cinema?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Tuesday 14 January 2003 09:01, "Steven Lewis wrote:
you can use fairly small diameter. You don't need much for
the snotter.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
> Also, can you use aUse spectra cord, which doesn't stretch. It is very strong, so
> flexible metal cable as a snotter, or does it have to be rope? It
> seems that keeping tension on the snotter is the biggest problem with
> the sprit rig, and eliminating line stretch would go a long way in
> keeping steady, constant tension
you can use fairly small diameter. You don't need much for
the snotter.
--
Bruce Fountain (fountainb@...)
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch and Signal Pty Ltd
Perth Western Australia
tel: +618 9256 0083
To those who have built or used Sprit rigs. What would I make a 13'
sprit out of, round or square(rectangular) stock? I already have a
nice piece of oak railing, 10'long for the mast, but I am trying to
figure out if fir 1-5/16" closet rod is the right choice for the
sprit or not. Should I use some 1X instead? Should the Sprit taper to
the ends or can it be uniform along its length? Also, can you use a
flexible metal cable as a snotter, or does it have to be rope? It
seems that keeping tension on the snotter is the biggest problem with
the sprit rig, and eliminating line stretch would go a long way in
keeping steady, constant tension. I will be starting with a loose
foot, and see how that works before putting a boom on, but I was
wondering if a regular boom or a sprit boom would work best? For
those who are wondering, the reason I picked railing for the mast is
that it is already round, and I want the mast to be able to rotate,
as I have read that this is more efficient with a sprit sail.
Steve
sprit out of, round or square(rectangular) stock? I already have a
nice piece of oak railing, 10'long for the mast, but I am trying to
figure out if fir 1-5/16" closet rod is the right choice for the
sprit or not. Should I use some 1X instead? Should the Sprit taper to
the ends or can it be uniform along its length? Also, can you use a
flexible metal cable as a snotter, or does it have to be rope? It
seems that keeping tension on the snotter is the biggest problem with
the sprit rig, and eliminating line stretch would go a long way in
keeping steady, constant tension. I will be starting with a loose
foot, and see how that works before putting a boom on, but I was
wondering if a regular boom or a sprit boom would work best? For
those who are wondering, the reason I picked railing for the mast is
that it is already round, and I want the mast to be able to rotate,
as I have read that this is more efficient with a sprit sail.
Steve