Re: Teal
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
> cruzer, You are over-thinking Teal.You think so? I'm merely looking at the expressed major points of the initial design brief - inclusive of economy. "Two or three years of sporadic mental effort for a good looking twelve-foot boat..." may not be over-thinking, that, plus half a plywood sheet with another half wasted. I didn't put the sail on a two sheet limited boat, adopt a certain use of language, and throw down a challenge.
Yes, point taken. however, the thing that PCB liked about Teal, why he expressed he didn't consider changing things as he did with most other designs, was that after much effort he got her out of two sheets of ply with virtually none wasted or left over. That's the rowboat Teal. But he said also that he liked the design because it looked pretty (cf Elegant Punt), and rowed, towed and SAILED well. If made of the suggested 1/4" plywood, then it takes another half a sheet for a sailboat Teal. And so there is waste! So rather than a two-some plywood sheet boat why not three sheets net without any left over, for a sailing Teal? And considering that it appears he didn't frown on your own change of sailplan and it kept the name "Teal" ;-)
It's not just a Teal thing... some other sailboat designs claiming to only require a certain BOM actually require more to sail.
It's not just a Teal thing... some other sailboat designs claiming to only require a certain BOM actually require more to sail.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
> cruzer,
> If you change the lines I suspect PB&F would frown upon your calling it a Bolger Teal.
> Joe T
> cruzer said,
> "How about shaping the topside planks profile for more displacement from a deeper belly or stern? And for a sailer consume just 3 sheets completely..."
cruzer,
If you change the lines I suspect PB&F would frown upon your calling it a Bolger Teal.
Joe T
cruzer said,
"How about shaping the topside planks profile for more displacement from a deeper belly or stern? And for a sailer consume just 3 sheets completely..."
If you change the lines I suspect PB&F would frown upon your calling it a Bolger Teal.
Joe T
cruzer said,
"How about shaping the topside planks profile for more displacement from a deeper belly or stern? And for a sailer consume just 3 sheets completely..."
cruzer, You are over-thinking Teal. It is an instant boat intended to go together simply. My minor changes were simply what I wanted. The 2in PVC mast TUBE extends about an inch or so above the partner. My thinking was that it might distribute the point load on the mast at the partner. Also could keep the partner from getting ripped up if the mast popped up out of the step as designed.
The stern was modified with a small transom simply because I like it. I omitted the stern projection for the same reason. It has a small skeg which is essential for rowing. I know because I cut it off thinking I would only sail it. Later I tried rowing and it would not track without the skeg. The rebuild made it fine for rowing.
The sprit sail worked fine in the designed mast position. I put a full boom on it simplify sheeting. Sailing it gave much enjoyment.
If I had it to do over I would use a pivoting leeboard and rudder per Michalak for ease in beaching.
Joe T
The stern was modified with a small transom simply because I like it. I omitted the stern projection for the same reason. It has a small skeg which is essential for rowing. I know because I cut it off thinking I would only sail it. Later I tried rowing and it would not track without the skeg. The rebuild made it fine for rowing.
The sprit sail worked fine in the designed mast position. I put a full boom on it simplify sheeting. Sailing it gave much enjoyment.
If I had it to do over I would use a pivoting leeboard and rudder per Michalak for ease in beaching.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
> That spritsail sounds like a real good option. And 2" PVC pipe mast --- elegant! What a beauty -- stopped at each end for floatation, foam filled, or left open to store the sprit pole inside? (screw caps on the ends..?) Hey, you could probably nearly roll up the sail on the sprit and stow it inside the 2" too! (1/2" - 3/4" PVC sprit..?)(My Capercat main is trailer stowed in 6" PVC...)
>
> Regarding the "..projection aft for the lower gudgeon was not pleasing to my eye.." Is it really necessary? Payson seems inclined to believe it's necessary to complete a rowing hull, but there's already a shoe... and the slope of the stern post is not all that great. Anyway, there's other Bolger rudders that slope down forwards, so if collecting skultch was a perceived problem then should it not go beyond 90deg to slope aft as on some other boats?
>
> So, PCB suggested thumb cleats. I wonder if a light club-boom might also help with a spritsail on a short double-ender like Teal with it's rapidly narrowing aft quarters? Did you step the spritsail in the same place as the designed LOM rig? Did you have to shift the leeboard position or even do a leeboard mount like for the 16ft pirogue?
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> > I built a Teal in the early 90's, my third boat, then three more in 1995 with students at the Moss Landing Middle School Boat Works. All were modified in one respect. That projection aft for the lower gudgeon was not pleasing to my eye. I cut off some of the angle at the stern and lofted a small transom, very narrow at the bottom, but just enough slope to look right. The rudder was shaped with an angle at the chine line to put the leading edge near vertical.
>
> > I loved sailing it, mostly in a small local lake, but also in San Diego Bay, I used either the designed 59sf LOM, but mostly a somewhat smaller sprit sail from a Bolger Pirogue. Oh yes, one other minor change: used a 2in PVC pipe for a mast tube. I like that one too. At Bolger's suggestion I also added thumb cleats P&S inside the sheer aft to relieve sheet tension. A slippery hitch there was useful on long tacks.
>
> > Joe T
>
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@> wrote:
> > > Bolger: "The trouble with naming a favorite design is, it's almost impossible to look at any one of them without saying, "Gee, I wish I could do that a little differently," or, "I've had a better idea." One that doesn't have that effect is the Payson Teal..."
>
> "Gee, I wish I could do that a little differently," or, "I've had aAs two 8ft by 1ft plywood planks, doubled, are additionally required for the 4ft long foils, I wonder if something might be done for the boat with the remaining 2ft by 8ft plywood piece? Decks, ditty box, tucker box, galley box, no? How about shaping the topside planks profile for more displacement from a deeper belly or stern? And for a sailer consume just 3 sheets completely...
> better idea." One that doesn't have that effect is the Payson Teal...
> So, PCB suggested thumb cleats.
> All were modified in one respect.
That spritsail sounds like a real good option. And 2" PVC pipe mast --- elegant! What a beauty -- stopped at each end for floatation, foam filled, or left open to store the sprit pole inside? (screw caps on the ends..?) Hey, you could probably nearly roll up the sail on the sprit and stow it inside the 2" too! (1/2" - 3/4" PVC sprit..?)(My Capercat main is trailer stowed in 6" PVC...)
Regarding the "..projection aft for the lower gudgeon was not pleasing to my eye.." Is it really necessary? Payson seems inclined to believe it's necessary to complete a rowing hull, but there's already a shoe... and the slope of the stern post is not all that great. Anyway, there's other Bolger rudders that slope down forwards, so if collecting skultch was a perceived problem then should it not go beyond 90deg to slope aft as on some other boats?
I've seen photos of one Teal modified for electric propelled fishing with squarish stern and bow transoms... the stern transom you describe kinda reminds me of the English duck punts and trows like the John Milgate Mersea duck punt or Gavin Atkin Light Trow interpretations - how was the twist in the planks? Seen the neat split planks on the Milgate to get a stylish-Y-ish looking narrow bottomed transom making the aft bottom pretty much a keel when trimmed down..? I'm not sure of the advantage in offsetting the rudder coa/clr from the pintel axis more, an initial issue on Birdwatcher, for instance, but the helm loads on Teal of course are much smaller.
So, PCB suggested thumb cleats. I wonder if a light club-boom might also help with a spritsail on a short double-ender like Teal with it's rapidly narrowing aft quarters? Did you step the spritsail in the same place as the designed LOM rig? Did you have to shift the leeboard position or even do a leeboard mount like for the 16ft pirogue?
Regarding the "..projection aft for the lower gudgeon was not pleasing to my eye.." Is it really necessary? Payson seems inclined to believe it's necessary to complete a rowing hull, but there's already a shoe... and the slope of the stern post is not all that great. Anyway, there's other Bolger rudders that slope down forwards, so if collecting skultch was a perceived problem then should it not go beyond 90deg to slope aft as on some other boats?
I've seen photos of one Teal modified for electric propelled fishing with squarish stern and bow transoms... the stern transom you describe kinda reminds me of the English duck punts and trows like the John Milgate Mersea duck punt or Gavin Atkin Light Trow interpretations - how was the twist in the planks? Seen the neat split planks on the Milgate to get a stylish-Y-ish looking narrow bottomed transom making the aft bottom pretty much a keel when trimmed down..? I'm not sure of the advantage in offsetting the rudder coa/clr from the pintel axis more, an initial issue on Birdwatcher, for instance, but the helm loads on Teal of course are much smaller.
So, PCB suggested thumb cleats. I wonder if a light club-boom might also help with a spritsail on a short double-ender like Teal with it's rapidly narrowing aft quarters? Did you step the spritsail in the same place as the designed LOM rig? Did you have to shift the leeboard position or even do a leeboard mount like for the 16ft pirogue?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
> I built a Teal in the early 90's, my third boat, then three more in 1995 with students at the Moss Landing Middle School Boat Works. All were modified in one respect. That projection aft for the lower gudgeon was not pleasing to my eye. I cut off some of the angle at the stern and lofted a small transom, very narrow at the bottom, but just enough slope to look right. The rudder was shaped with an angle at the chine line to put the leading edge near vertical.
> I loved sailing it, mostly in a small local lake, but also in San Diego Bay, I used either the designed 59sf LOM, but mostly a somewhat smaller sprit sail from a Bolger Pirogue. Oh yes, one other minor change: used a 2in PVC pipe for a mast tube. I like that one too. At Bolger's suggestion I also added thumb cleats P&S inside the sheer aft to relieve sheet tension. A slippery hitch there was useful on long tacks.
> Joe T
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@> wrote:
> > Bolger: "The trouble with naming a favorite design is, it's almost impossible to look at any one of them without saying, "Gee, I wish I could do that a little differently," or, "I've had a better idea." One that doesn't have that effect is the Payson Teal..."
I built a Teal in the early 90's, my third boat, then three more in 1995 with students at the Moss Landing Middle School Boat Works. All were modified in one respect. That projection aft for the lower gudgeon was not pleasing to my eye. I cut off some of the angle at the stern and lofted a small transom, very narrow at the bottom, but just enough slope to look right. The rudder was shaped with an angle at the chine line to put the leading edge near vertical.
I loved sailing it, mostly in a small local lake, but also in San Diego Bay, I used either the designed 59sf LOM, but mostly a somewhat smaller sprit sail from a Bolger Pirogue. Oh yes, one other minor change: used a 2in PVC pipe for a mast tube. I like that one too. At Bolger's suggestion I also added thumb cleats P&S inside the sheer aft to relieve sheet tension. A slippery hitch there was useful on long tacks.
Joe T
I loved sailing it, mostly in a small local lake, but also in San Diego Bay, I used either the designed 59sf LOM, but mostly a somewhat smaller sprit sail from a Bolger Pirogue. Oh yes, one other minor change: used a 2in PVC pipe for a mast tube. I like that one too. At Bolger's suggestion I also added thumb cleats P&S inside the sheer aft to relieve sheet tension. A slippery hitch there was useful on long tacks.
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
>
> Bolger: "The trouble with naming a favorite design is, it's almost impossible to look at any one of them without saying, "Gee, I wish I could do that a little differently," or, "I've had a better idea." One that doesn't have that effect is the Payson Teal..."
From a Small Craft Adviser interview...
SCA: How many have you designed?
Bolger: The one on the drawing board now is number 664...
SCA: Which stand out as your favourites, or which are you proudest of?
Bolger: I always say the Birdwatcher is my favourite. It's a truly novel concept. Plus it has the type of capabilities I like to work with: light weight and self righting, within reason, for an inshore boat. After that, I can give you a long string of designs I like well. A couple dozen, perhaps even more. The trouble with naming a favourite design is, it's almost impossible to look at any one of them without saying, "Gee, I wish I could do that a little differently," or, "I've had a better idea." One that doesn't have that effect is the Payson Teal...
SCA: How many have you designed?
Bolger: The one on the drawing board now is number 664...
SCA: Which stand out as your favourites, or which are you proudest of?
Bolger: I always say the Birdwatcher is my favourite. It's a truly novel concept. Plus it has the type of capabilities I like to work with: light weight and self righting, within reason, for an inshore boat. After that, I can give you a long string of designs I like well. A couple dozen, perhaps even more. The trouble with naming a favourite design is, it's almost impossible to look at any one of them without saying, "Gee, I wish I could do that a little differently," or, "I've had a better idea." One that doesn't have that effect is the Payson Teal...
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
> _The_ finished design...
> yet two more interpretations 4sale
> English runners
>http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bolger-teal-12-ft-sailing-skiff-sudbury-120/108893803#gallery-item-full-1Unclear in the pics how shoal? Seems less than the Kalgoolie June Bug's 2 off 4" (by 4ft) which reportedly went well:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/2129755378/pic/list
> Canadian decks
>http://kamloops.britishcolumbiaads.com/boats/12-ft-drift-boat-fishing-boat-bolger-teal_1658112.html
_The_ finished design...
yet two more interpretations 4sale
English runners
http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bolger-teal-12-ft-sailing-skiff-sudbury-120/108893803#gallery-item-full-1Unclear in the pics how shoal? Seems less than the Kalgoolie June Bug's 2 off 4" (by 4ft) which reportedly went well...
Canadian decks
http://kamloops.britishcolumbiaads.com/boats/12-ft-drift-boat-fishing-boat-bolger-teal_1658112.html
yet two more interpretations 4sale
English runners
http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bolger-teal-12-ft-sailing-skiff-sudbury-120/108893803#gallery-item-full-1Unclear in the pics how shoal? Seems less than the Kalgoolie June Bug's 2 off 4" (by 4ft) which reportedly went well...
Canadian decks
http://kamloops.britishcolumbiaads.com/boats/12-ft-drift-boat-fishing-boat-bolger-teal_1658112.html
Does anyone know how well the Teal performs in the hands of a fairly
lightly built ten-year old? My son needs a more challenging boat, and
for a change, I'm wonder whether I should build him Teal instead of
one of my Mouse boat variants. Another Mouse is the most obvious
choice at present for a host of reasons, but I'm willing to be
persuaded!
Gav
lightly built ten-year old? My son needs a more challenging boat, and
for a change, I'm wonder whether I should build him Teal instead of
one of my Mouse boat variants. Another Mouse is the most obvious
choice at present for a host of reasons, but I'm willing to be
persuaded!
Gav
At 3:20 PM -0500 7/28/03, Chris Crandall wrote:
painting the inside of the dad-blamed thing!
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
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>You did the right thing by getting the smaller ply.And it bears a strange resemblance to a Birdwatcher. Chris, we're
>
>I am currently, slowly, building a verion of a Teal in 1/2" MDO. But, as
>some have suggested, it's about 22-23 feet long and 6 ft beam. The middle
>frame is, shall we say, substantially stiffer than the original
>scantlings.
painting the inside of the dad-blamed thing!
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net Virus Checker.]
You did the right thing by getting the smaller ply.
I am currently, slowly, building a verion of a Teal in 1/2" MDO. But, as
some have suggested, it's about 22-23 feet long and 6 ft beam. The middle
frame is, shall we say, substantially stiffer than the original
scantlings.
In addition, I will shave off a bit of the stern, replace with a transom,
and an OB motor. (I'll bring the motor inboard a bit.)
3/8 MDO exists, but it's smooth on only one side (typically). That other
side--it's the worst junk you've ever seen. Worse than the d-side of CDX.
I built a Teal using .20 inch lauan, and it's worked just fine for many
years now. I used 3/8 for the bottom, though. No flotation added at
all--no capsize experience yet.
I am currently, slowly, building a verion of a Teal in 1/2" MDO. But, as
some have suggested, it's about 22-23 feet long and 6 ft beam. The middle
frame is, shall we say, substantially stiffer than the original
scantlings.
In addition, I will shave off a bit of the stern, replace with a transom,
and an OB motor. (I'll bring the motor inboard a bit.)
3/8 MDO exists, but it's smooth on only one side (typically). That other
side--it's the worst junk you've ever seen. Worse than the d-side of CDX.
I built a Teal using .20 inch lauan, and it's worked just fine for many
years now. I used 3/8 for the bottom, though. No flotation added at
all--no capsize experience yet.
Thanks Hal, Bob &b Peter
My son & I are having a great time growing the teal!
Ken
My son & I are having a great time growing the teal!
Ken