[bolger] Re: Better Question: Cedar and Bolger Boats

> I take the point with respect to the cedar being soft. However, I don't
> have a high opinion of the abrasion resistance of a thin layer of
> fiberglass.
>
> Peter

You are right, Peter. A thin layer would only increase the strength and
stiffness, it would take more to produce abrasion resistance - probably not
even practical.

chuck
> Indeed extra diameter would provide more stiffness, as well as
strength, the
> problem occurs when a gaff jaw or other piece of rigging rubs on the
mast.
> Cedar is so soft that even under a layer of leather it may abrade.
This
> does not mean that it would not work, just that the characteristics
should
> be considered.
>
> Chuck

I take the point with respect to the cedar being soft. However, I don't
have a high opinion of the abrasion resistance of a thin layer of
fiberglass.

Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: P. Vanderwaart <pvanderw@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 6:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Better Question: Cedar and Bolger Boats


> 3) I don't understand the suggestion for fiberglassing a mast. If
stiffness
> is the object, a little extra diameter would seem a more natural solution.
> Explain?
>
> Peter

Indeed extra diameter would provide more stiffness, as well as strength, the
problem occurs when a gaff jaw or other piece of rigging rubs on the mast.
Cedar is so soft that even under a layer of leather it may abrade. This
does not mean that it would not work, just that the characteristics should
be considered.

Chuck
Traditionally, cedar has been used for planking because (I think) it is
light and has moderately nice resistance to rot. You would not want to use
it for a spar as it shatters pretty easily. Similarly, it wouldn't be great
for framing. It'd be pretty for ceilings or interior trim, though.

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From:Teakdeck@...<Teakdeck@...>
To:Teakdeck@...<Teakdeck@...>;dhodges@...
<dhodges@...>;bolger@egroups.com<bolger@egroups.com>
Date: Sunday, February 13, 2000 6:04 PM
Subject: [bolger] Better Question: Cedar and Bolger Boats


>
>In a message dated 2/13/00 I wrote:
>
><< I am in possession of a beautiful piece of cedar 2X4X16'. Can I use it
for
>spars, mast, gunwales, anything? >>
>
>I got a number of answers which showed clearly how imprecise the question
>was! What I was really trying to get at, is cedar an ok wood to use for
>"spars, mast, gunwales, anything" or is it too soft, too flexible, too
>whatever? Will it break easily, or flex too much, or not glue up properly?
I
>never hear people in our group here talk about cedar. Is it normally too
>expensive?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Mike
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
>Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
>no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
>credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
>http://click.egroups.com/1/930/5/_/3457/_/950483083/
>
>-- Check out your group's private Chat room
>--http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
>
> I got a number of answers which showed clearly how imprecise the
question
> was! What I was really trying to get at, is cedar an ok wood to use
for
> "spars, mast, gunwales, anything" or is it too soft, too flexible,
too
> whatever? Will it break easily, or flex too much, or not glue up
properly? I
> never hear people in our group here talk about cedar. Is it normally
too
> expensive?

What kind of cedar <hahahaha> - ?

Western Red Cedar?
it's a redwood, not a cedar, and pretty soft, but I've used the 8-ft
1.75x1.75 "baluster" stock for the lower part of a gunter mast and also
as a boom or yard on a lugsail and while not the cheapest spar, since
it comes with rounded edges it may well be the fastest $7 spar there is.

White Cedar?
You can probably use it for anything on a small boat except stuff that
gets whacked good and hard (keel runners, outwales). A traditional
lightweight small boat planking wood.

Chesapeake "cedar"? (juniper virginiana, or whatever) is not a cedar,
and has been used for planking, could certainly be used for spars, and
would be stronger than Western Red. It's the aromatic, red or purple
stuff, and it's very tough wood. Not as light as white cedar. Several
old timey guys talk of using dead cedar frees from the swamp as masts,
just smooth 'em off a little.


The "Forest Products Laboratory" of the US gummint has their "Wood
Handbook" online in PDF format and you can get loads of hints on
various more or less traditional wood uses from that, or from any old
books dealing with wood & wood uses. Not sure of the URL but I think
it's fpl.gov or fpl.usda.gov.
>
>The biggest drawback to cedar is its lack of abrasion resistance. Use
>anything else for gunwales. You could use it for masts, but I would cover
>it with glass. Spars sounds like the best use, other than strip planking,
>of course, which is what it was invented for.

1) Culler went into the use of cedar for spars in Skiffs & Schooners.

2) In the write-up on Query in Different Boats, Bolger wrote "Her rig is
too flexible, the mast being made of cedar to a design meant for Douglas
Fir." So, if you use it for a spar, make sure you don't undersize it.

3) I don't understand the suggestion for fiberglassing a mast. If stiffness
is the object, a little extra diameter would seem a more natural solution.
Explain?

Peter
Mike:

The biggest drawback to cedar is its lack of abrasion resistance. Use
anything else for gunwales. You could use it for masts, but I would cover
it with glass. Spars sounds like the best use, other than strip planking,
of course, which is what it was invented for.

Chuck Leinweber
Duckworks Magazine
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com


----- Original Message -----
From: <Teakdeck@...>
To: <Teakdeck@...>; <dhodges@...>; <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 5:04 PM
Subject: [bolger] Better Question: Cedar and Bolger Boats


>
> In a message dated 2/13/00 I wrote:
>
> << I am in possession of a beautiful piece of cedar 2X4X16'. Can I use it
for
> spars, mast, gunwales, anything? >>
>
> I got a number of answers which showed clearly how imprecise the question
> was! What I was really trying to get at, is cedar an ok wood to use for
> "spars, mast, gunwales, anything" or is it too soft, too flexible, too
> whatever? Will it break easily, or flex too much, or not glue up properly?
I
> never hear people in our group here talk about cedar. Is it normally too
> expensive?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
> no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
> credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
>http://click.egroups.com/1/930/5/_/3457/_/950483083/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> --http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
In a message dated 2/13/00 I wrote:

<< I am in possession of a beautiful piece of cedar 2X4X16'. Can I use it for
spars, mast, gunwales, anything? >>

I got a number of answers which showed clearly how imprecise the question
was! What I was really trying to get at, is cedar an ok wood to use for
"spars, mast, gunwales, anything" or is it too soft, too flexible, too
whatever? Will it break easily, or flex too much, or not glue up properly? I
never hear people in our group here talk about cedar. Is it normally too
expensive?

Thanks.

Mike
There's also the question of what kind of cedar you have. The fact that you
call it a "beautiful piece..." suggest that it's most likely red cedar
(yellow cedar is very strong, relatively heavy, and generally as featureless
as yellow soap). Good chance that its western red. If its clear and straight
grained it's probably very strong for it's wonderful lightness. If its
factory planed to approx. 3 1/2" by 1 1/2" it'll be too light for mast for
even a punt or Teal. Though you can band saw rip it and glue the halves
together for a piece of stock that very nearly lets you get the 1 3/4" max
you'd need for a whole family of light rigged boats. It might last a
season, but its softness would quickly translate to deep scoring at the
partner. The mast would work fine until a surprise gust snaps it like a
match stick when you least expect it. Red cedar does not have a great
history of successful fibre glassing, but most of that history is based on
polyester. Straight grained, clear western red is a planking wood of choice
because of its easy workability and natural worm resistance. Spars are
probably a very good choice for its use, though they will not show off the
deep beauty of the wood to best advantage. If you're willing to put up with
cumlative scars and mars and the maintenance required, then put it where
it'll show, i.e. thwarts, decks, coamings, etc. Just don't allow spike heals
on board.

jeb

At 06:04 PM 2/13/2000 EST, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 2/13/00 I wrote:
>
><< I am in possession of a beautiful piece of cedar 2X4X16'. Can I use it for
>spars, mast, gunwales, anything? >>
>
>I got a number of answers which showed clearly how imprecise the question
>was! What I was really trying to get at, is cedar an ok wood to use for
>"spars, mast, gunwales, anything" or is it too soft, too flexible, too
>whatever? Will it break easily, or flex too much, or not glue up properly? I
>never hear people in our group here talk about cedar. Is it normally too
>expensive?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Mike
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
>Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
>no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
>credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
>http://click.egroups.com/1/930/5/_/3457/_/950483083/
>
>-- Check out your group's private Chat room
>--http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
>