Re: [bolger] Digest Number 1401
Hey there, "pro",
A little touchy today, aren't we? Maybe time to switch to decaf?
I do believe I said, several times, "I think . . .", "my preference . .
.", I personally like . . .". NO WHERE did I say, ". . .YOU MUST do . .
.thus and such". I no longer believe in "Absolute Pronouncements". I
have found that the key to learning is . . . one is ALWAYS learning.
Boatbuilding, or woodworking, or anything creative is a PERSONAL thing.
Something of the individual goes into every item. {Phil, is that a
Libertarian concept, or have you completely given up monitoring this
forum?} It also seems that when you got your 'head of steam up' you
mis-read a couple of points.
'From the top' and in order of your retort;
"proa" - -"All jigs . . . Of course, the answer under the circumstances
is "no" ".
"Ron" - - To *ME* a jig or fixture is for 'Repeatable Accuracy'. Can it
be 'faster' than another method - sometimes, but not always. Especially
when you count the "make/set-up/store" time into the total.
P - - ". . . this one hasn't got much use in recent years . . . I wanted
to make the complex version . . . to see if it would work"
R - - That's nice . . . I do a lot of 'experiments' myself.
P - - ". . . Scarphs in some of the luan ply material need perfect
feathers, and perfect alignment to get higher strength, because the
material is brittle and the topsheets are very thin . . . jig made that
easy . . .with a hand plane . . .take a lot longer . . glueline dulls
the blade, and you need a sharp, fine set plane not to tear out the luan
feathers ."
R - - EVERYTHING I've ever read, heard, or experienced with the use of
'filled epoxy' as an adhesive medium states that not only is it one of
the advantages, but almost a mandatory requirement, that the 'raw'
joints NOT be 'perfect'. That this 'perfection' concept comes from the
use of Resorcinol glue, and that it gives a greater probability of a
'starved' joint with epoxy. For ALL cutting hand-tools the blades must
be SHARP. If you use planes, {or chisels, or knives} one of the first
things you understand is the sharpening process . . . ones brand-new,
still in the box, are NOT really sharp. yet even a relative 'unsharp'
blade will give a 'less torn' edge then a circular say blade applied at
an angle to the end of sheet goods. [See your own comments about using a
plane for the 'last 15%' of the cutting process]
P - - "Build a boat with 100 sheets of 1/8 inch ply and you will warm to
the idea"
R - - 1/8 inch Lauan ply sounds like 'doorskin' material . . . very
fragile and splintery stuff. Scarping for 16 ft lengths in this quantity
sounds like a 'stripping' or 'cold molding' project. Rough calculations
indicate that the finished sheets total 3200 Sq.Ft. and would cover an
area 40 x 80 feet . . . that is if you did ALL the cutting at one time.
If you simply stacked the sheets it would only be about 12.5 inches tall
and weigh about 1200 pounds. I don't happen to have a 40 x 80 ft back
yard, and all those perfect feather edges, just waiting to be bumped,
bruised, split, torn, or otherwise destroyed would make me very nervous.
Of course, IF you DIDN'T do them all at once, then the entire discussion
of time is moot.
P - - "Believe me I can do the math, you need a dead level and firm
surface for planing, by the time that is set up over 4x8' I could have
this set up. It doesn't even begin to need to be as solid as a planing
beam should be . . ."
R - - I apologize for the mis-understanding. My intention was for an
'aid' to those who might be, "intimidated by scarphs" and only be doing
a few at a time, with varying material thickness'. I also beg to differ
about the 'dead level . . . over 4x8 feet . . . planning beam'
requirement. FIRM and FLAT . . . YES. 'Dead Level' and over 4ft x 8ft .
. . NO. The user can a set of good, heavy-duty sawhorses {I have several
sets, different variations for different uses} There are several 'plans'
out there; make them to accommodate . . .YOU. Or buy them . . .
whatever. Depending how they were made, they can be used 'as-is' or a
nice, flat piece of 2 inch, or so, thick material can be attached to
the top of one of them - wood, plastic, etc. Just make sure it is wider
than the width of the sheets. "Stair-Step" the sheet goods to be cut,
clamp down with a caul & a couple of clamps, and cut. {to make simple
'angle guides' some boards of appropriate thickness and arrange one
above and the other below the sheet goods - the plane 'rides' on these
and limits the cutting.} 2 sheets of 1/8" material would probably take 1
to 2 'passes'. For a 'production' set-up I would cut 8 sheets {4 'sets'}
at a time. I would use wood scraps as removable 'positioning guides', do
a quick pass with the VARIABLE SPEED, DUST VACUUM belt sander, and the
final passes with the plane. I WOULD THEN GLUE-UP those 4 'sets'.
P - - "You only have to touch up the thicker sheets, and it requires the
removal of only the last, say 15% of wood."
R - - I won't say no, but it seems hard to believe that you are getting
'perfect feathers' with a hand-held circular saw {jig or no} on 1/8 inch
Lauan 'doorskin' material, cutting a single sheet at a time.
P - - "A real Jack plane, has a curved blade, which ain't much of a
help."
R - - from "Planecraft" by John Sainsbury; " . . . the jack plane . . .
14 to 15 inches long {is} generally the first to be used, and
{are}called into action more frequently than and other [hence "Jack" {of
all trades}]. ". . .use is in the preliminary cleaning and squaring of
wood . . . also for accurate shooting of . . . moderately long edges".
"Cutters {blades} . . . the preferred shape for general work, the
corners slightly rounded [so not to 'dig in'] but the edge perfectly
straight [and square]". " . . . shape [1/64 to 1/32 inch curve or
'crown' ] given to a 'hogging' or 'roughing' plane [sometimes called a
'scrub plane'] . . . fine for bringing coarsely cut boards down roughly
to size for accurate planing, but cutter leaves a corrugated surface."
P - - "Marking gauge"
R - - Entirely different. A 'Marking Gauge' is . . .Used on flat stock
{surface of sheet goods}"Gauges set-in behind a front edge" [SQUARE to
that reference edge] . . A Sliding T-Bevel {Adjustable Bevel gauge} -
". . . for setting & transferring angles. Per 'Dynamite' Payson, "One of
the lesser known but handiest of boatbuilding tools is the adjustable
bevel square . . .". " . . .want to find the bevel, or edge slant . .
.Align the handle . . . with the vertical line . . . swing the movable
blade . . . tighten the locking nut . . . the required angle is now
locked in your bevel square." You can then transfer the angle to another
part for exact fit, or measure it on a 'bevel board' or protractor. AND
CONVERSELY, you can take a KNOWN ANGLE and transfer that to a work
piece.
P - - {hand-held belt sander} "Yuck slow and dusty, since when can one
not use a circular saw for something else?"
R - - Slow ?? If I put a 36-grit 'Planer Belt' on it {an inexpensive
Ryobi variable speed} and have it at the middle setting, it will cut
through a 1/4 inch epoxyed glass hull if I sneeze at the wrong time!! It
is EXACTLY BECAUSE it has variable speeds, and there is a large
selection of belts available that I suggest it. The operator's
confidence and developed 'touch' governs how fast & what grit. The
sanding dust is either captured [bag attachment] or sucked away [small
shop vac w/ long hose].
The other 'question' ? - a circular saw has a single speed and CUTS
{wood, metal, plastic, etc. - depending on the blade}. It does a pretty
good job of throwing dust, chips, and other debris . . . especially with
the blade exposed. Also, I've never heard of an 'extraction' accessory.
My belt sander does heavy stock removal, cleans up solidified epoxy
runs, 'cuts' & shapes various parts 'in situ', removes paint, removes
dried glue 'squeeze out', flattens & prepares stock for further
processing, easily 'scuffs' large surfaces in preparation for other
finishing operations, sands [from rough to fine], and could even sharpen
trowels, hoe's, shovels, and other garden tools. NEVER have the dust bag
or vacuum attached when used on metal !!
P - - " . . .you don't need this jig, if your scarph production falls
into the hardly ever through to barely ever category. It will
please those who may be intimidated by scarphs, or those who need a
fast way to get them. People who want a slow way, with lots of dust, to
hardly ever make scarphs, should make other plans. ;0) "
R - - Somehow 'production' and "those who may be intimidated by scarps
. . ." seem to be contrary statements. Someone who is involved with the
necessity of 'production' volume would not be intimidated by them, and
conversely someone who is intimidated by them should be concentrating on
technique rather then worrying about the high speed 'finger chopper' of
the exposed circular saw blade.
As regards the statement, "People who want a slow way . . .". First, I
wonder what the ratio is of Bolger sail & cruiser designs vs 'nose-bleed
special', Cigarette-type, high-speed power boats. If someone has a case
of, "I gotta get out on the water . . QUICK !!", a 'Tortoise' or one of
the other 'mixing tray' boats can be thrown together in an afternoon.
Monitoring this Forum {as well as a number of others in the Boatbuilding
community}, it seems that a great many of the participants enjoy the
'voyage' as much, if not more, then the 'landfall'.
A couple of more quotes on some specifics from 'Dynamite', if I may;
"But there are a few additional small tools that can make building a lot
easier. One is a power block plane for mowing down the edge-grain of
plywood, which is one tough project if tackled with a hand plane.
Scarfing [his spelling] plywood joints is a snap with it, too, for it
makes easy work of cutting across veneers of plywood neatly and
accurately."
"A small selection of power sanders is a good investment. First choice
would be a belt sander, followed by the disk sander [his interpretation
is a drill with a disk attachment] and the orbital sander."
Do I 'follow' him with 'religious fervor ? Although He has undoubtedly
built more boats than ANY of us (and was Phil Bolger's
'hands-on-construction consultant' for many years} the answer is, "Not
always". In this case I chose the belt sander over the power plane for
reasons of control and versatility. MY choice, MY feelings, MY 'comfort
level'.
As far as, ". . . wanting a slow way . . ." and " . . . make other
plans." ? Everything is relative, 'political correctness' and 'speed'
included. I guess that's why I'm a sailor and small wooden boat builder.
My 'immediate' plans start tomorrow. I intend to sit in my 'Thinking
Chair' with some good, strong, black, coffee and watch the America's Cup
Regatta on ESPN2. "WE" may not be in it, but it's 2-1/2 hours of
sailing.
Regards, and thanks for the use of the soapbox,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{ps: it's 'Quohog' because the correct spelling was already taken, look
for my new 'address' with the 'Rhode Island' spelling}
A little touchy today, aren't we? Maybe time to switch to decaf?
I do believe I said, several times, "I think . . .", "my preference . .
.", I personally like . . .". NO WHERE did I say, ". . .YOU MUST do . .
.thus and such". I no longer believe in "Absolute Pronouncements". I
have found that the key to learning is . . . one is ALWAYS learning.
Boatbuilding, or woodworking, or anything creative is a PERSONAL thing.
Something of the individual goes into every item. {Phil, is that a
Libertarian concept, or have you completely given up monitoring this
forum?} It also seems that when you got your 'head of steam up' you
mis-read a couple of points.
'From the top' and in order of your retort;
"proa" - -"All jigs . . . Of course, the answer under the circumstances
is "no" ".
"Ron" - - To *ME* a jig or fixture is for 'Repeatable Accuracy'. Can it
be 'faster' than another method - sometimes, but not always. Especially
when you count the "make/set-up/store" time into the total.
P - - ". . . this one hasn't got much use in recent years . . . I wanted
to make the complex version . . . to see if it would work"
R - - That's nice . . . I do a lot of 'experiments' myself.
P - - ". . . Scarphs in some of the luan ply material need perfect
feathers, and perfect alignment to get higher strength, because the
material is brittle and the topsheets are very thin . . . jig made that
easy . . .with a hand plane . . .take a lot longer . . glueline dulls
the blade, and you need a sharp, fine set plane not to tear out the luan
feathers ."
R - - EVERYTHING I've ever read, heard, or experienced with the use of
'filled epoxy' as an adhesive medium states that not only is it one of
the advantages, but almost a mandatory requirement, that the 'raw'
joints NOT be 'perfect'. That this 'perfection' concept comes from the
use of Resorcinol glue, and that it gives a greater probability of a
'starved' joint with epoxy. For ALL cutting hand-tools the blades must
be SHARP. If you use planes, {or chisels, or knives} one of the first
things you understand is the sharpening process . . . ones brand-new,
still in the box, are NOT really sharp. yet even a relative 'unsharp'
blade will give a 'less torn' edge then a circular say blade applied at
an angle to the end of sheet goods. [See your own comments about using a
plane for the 'last 15%' of the cutting process]
P - - "Build a boat with 100 sheets of 1/8 inch ply and you will warm to
the idea"
R - - 1/8 inch Lauan ply sounds like 'doorskin' material . . . very
fragile and splintery stuff. Scarping for 16 ft lengths in this quantity
sounds like a 'stripping' or 'cold molding' project. Rough calculations
indicate that the finished sheets total 3200 Sq.Ft. and would cover an
area 40 x 80 feet . . . that is if you did ALL the cutting at one time.
If you simply stacked the sheets it would only be about 12.5 inches tall
and weigh about 1200 pounds. I don't happen to have a 40 x 80 ft back
yard, and all those perfect feather edges, just waiting to be bumped,
bruised, split, torn, or otherwise destroyed would make me very nervous.
Of course, IF you DIDN'T do them all at once, then the entire discussion
of time is moot.
P - - "Believe me I can do the math, you need a dead level and firm
surface for planing, by the time that is set up over 4x8' I could have
this set up. It doesn't even begin to need to be as solid as a planing
beam should be . . ."
R - - I apologize for the mis-understanding. My intention was for an
'aid' to those who might be, "intimidated by scarphs" and only be doing
a few at a time, with varying material thickness'. I also beg to differ
about the 'dead level . . . over 4x8 feet . . . planning beam'
requirement. FIRM and FLAT . . . YES. 'Dead Level' and over 4ft x 8ft .
. . NO. The user can a set of good, heavy-duty sawhorses {I have several
sets, different variations for different uses} There are several 'plans'
out there; make them to accommodate . . .YOU. Or buy them . . .
whatever. Depending how they were made, they can be used 'as-is' or a
nice, flat piece of 2 inch, or so, thick material can be attached to
the top of one of them - wood, plastic, etc. Just make sure it is wider
than the width of the sheets. "Stair-Step" the sheet goods to be cut,
clamp down with a caul & a couple of clamps, and cut. {to make simple
'angle guides' some boards of appropriate thickness and arrange one
above and the other below the sheet goods - the plane 'rides' on these
and limits the cutting.} 2 sheets of 1/8" material would probably take 1
to 2 'passes'. For a 'production' set-up I would cut 8 sheets {4 'sets'}
at a time. I would use wood scraps as removable 'positioning guides', do
a quick pass with the VARIABLE SPEED, DUST VACUUM belt sander, and the
final passes with the plane. I WOULD THEN GLUE-UP those 4 'sets'.
P - - "You only have to touch up the thicker sheets, and it requires the
removal of only the last, say 15% of wood."
R - - I won't say no, but it seems hard to believe that you are getting
'perfect feathers' with a hand-held circular saw {jig or no} on 1/8 inch
Lauan 'doorskin' material, cutting a single sheet at a time.
P - - "A real Jack plane, has a curved blade, which ain't much of a
help."
R - - from "Planecraft" by John Sainsbury; " . . . the jack plane . . .
14 to 15 inches long {is} generally the first to be used, and
{are}called into action more frequently than and other [hence "Jack" {of
all trades}]. ". . .use is in the preliminary cleaning and squaring of
wood . . . also for accurate shooting of . . . moderately long edges".
"Cutters {blades} . . . the preferred shape for general work, the
corners slightly rounded [so not to 'dig in'] but the edge perfectly
straight [and square]". " . . . shape [1/64 to 1/32 inch curve or
'crown' ] given to a 'hogging' or 'roughing' plane [sometimes called a
'scrub plane'] . . . fine for bringing coarsely cut boards down roughly
to size for accurate planing, but cutter leaves a corrugated surface."
P - - "Marking gauge"
R - - Entirely different. A 'Marking Gauge' is . . .Used on flat stock
{surface of sheet goods}"Gauges set-in behind a front edge" [SQUARE to
that reference edge] . . A Sliding T-Bevel {Adjustable Bevel gauge} -
". . . for setting & transferring angles. Per 'Dynamite' Payson, "One of
the lesser known but handiest of boatbuilding tools is the adjustable
bevel square . . .". " . . .want to find the bevel, or edge slant . .
.Align the handle . . . with the vertical line . . . swing the movable
blade . . . tighten the locking nut . . . the required angle is now
locked in your bevel square." You can then transfer the angle to another
part for exact fit, or measure it on a 'bevel board' or protractor. AND
CONVERSELY, you can take a KNOWN ANGLE and transfer that to a work
piece.
P - - {hand-held belt sander} "Yuck slow and dusty, since when can one
not use a circular saw for something else?"
R - - Slow ?? If I put a 36-grit 'Planer Belt' on it {an inexpensive
Ryobi variable speed} and have it at the middle setting, it will cut
through a 1/4 inch epoxyed glass hull if I sneeze at the wrong time!! It
is EXACTLY BECAUSE it has variable speeds, and there is a large
selection of belts available that I suggest it. The operator's
confidence and developed 'touch' governs how fast & what grit. The
sanding dust is either captured [bag attachment] or sucked away [small
shop vac w/ long hose].
The other 'question' ? - a circular saw has a single speed and CUTS
{wood, metal, plastic, etc. - depending on the blade}. It does a pretty
good job of throwing dust, chips, and other debris . . . especially with
the blade exposed. Also, I've never heard of an 'extraction' accessory.
My belt sander does heavy stock removal, cleans up solidified epoxy
runs, 'cuts' & shapes various parts 'in situ', removes paint, removes
dried glue 'squeeze out', flattens & prepares stock for further
processing, easily 'scuffs' large surfaces in preparation for other
finishing operations, sands [from rough to fine], and could even sharpen
trowels, hoe's, shovels, and other garden tools. NEVER have the dust bag
or vacuum attached when used on metal !!
P - - " . . .you don't need this jig, if your scarph production falls
into the hardly ever through to barely ever category. It will
please those who may be intimidated by scarphs, or those who need a
fast way to get them. People who want a slow way, with lots of dust, to
hardly ever make scarphs, should make other plans. ;0) "
R - - Somehow 'production' and "those who may be intimidated by scarps
. . ." seem to be contrary statements. Someone who is involved with the
necessity of 'production' volume would not be intimidated by them, and
conversely someone who is intimidated by them should be concentrating on
technique rather then worrying about the high speed 'finger chopper' of
the exposed circular saw blade.
As regards the statement, "People who want a slow way . . .". First, I
wonder what the ratio is of Bolger sail & cruiser designs vs 'nose-bleed
special', Cigarette-type, high-speed power boats. If someone has a case
of, "I gotta get out on the water . . QUICK !!", a 'Tortoise' or one of
the other 'mixing tray' boats can be thrown together in an afternoon.
Monitoring this Forum {as well as a number of others in the Boatbuilding
community}, it seems that a great many of the participants enjoy the
'voyage' as much, if not more, then the 'landfall'.
A couple of more quotes on some specifics from 'Dynamite', if I may;
"But there are a few additional small tools that can make building a lot
easier. One is a power block plane for mowing down the edge-grain of
plywood, which is one tough project if tackled with a hand plane.
Scarfing [his spelling] plywood joints is a snap with it, too, for it
makes easy work of cutting across veneers of plywood neatly and
accurately."
"A small selection of power sanders is a good investment. First choice
would be a belt sander, followed by the disk sander [his interpretation
is a drill with a disk attachment] and the orbital sander."
Do I 'follow' him with 'religious fervor ? Although He has undoubtedly
built more boats than ANY of us (and was Phil Bolger's
'hands-on-construction consultant' for many years} the answer is, "Not
always". In this case I chose the belt sander over the power plane for
reasons of control and versatility. MY choice, MY feelings, MY 'comfort
level'.
As far as, ". . . wanting a slow way . . ." and " . . . make other
plans." ? Everything is relative, 'political correctness' and 'speed'
included. I guess that's why I'm a sailor and small wooden boat builder.
My 'immediate' plans start tomorrow. I intend to sit in my 'Thinking
Chair' with some good, strong, black, coffee and watch the America's Cup
Regatta on ESPN2. "WE" may not be in it, but it's 2-1/2 hours of
sailing.
Regards, and thanks for the use of the soapbox,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{ps: it's 'Quohog' because the correct spelling was already taken, look
for my new 'address' with the 'Rhode Island' spelling}
> Message: 19<proaconstrictor@...>
> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:30:32 -0000
> From: "proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@...>"
> Subject: Re: Digest # 1400 -'Non-Skid' & Scarfing
>
>
> >
> > re: Scarping Jig
> > Nice idea, but a bit complex & time consuming, I think.
>
> All jigs are based on the idea that the time to make/set-up/store the
> jig is less than the time to cut by other means, so obviously you can
> always say "hey mightn't it be faster to do it by hand". Of course
> the answer under the circumstances is "no".
>
> What I hate about jigs is how they accumulate, this one hasn't got
> much use in recent years. I think like a lot of things, I wanted to
> make the complex version shown here in order to see if it would
> work. A simpler version of say a 2x8 run through the saw, and with
> the ply nailed on edge would take less time than one scarph to make.
>
> There are other reasons. Scarphs in some of the luan ply material
> need perfect feathers, and perfect alignment to get higher strength,
> because the material is brittle, and the topsheets are very thin.
> This jig made that easy. You can do it with a hand plane, but it
> does take a lot longer because the glueline dulls the blade, and you
> need a sharp, fine set plane not to tear out the luan feathers. On
> other types of wood like say 1/3,1/3,1/3 DFir, the task is easier.
>
> Build a boat with 100 sheets of 1/8" ply, and you will warm to the
> idea.
> >
> > Your mention of having to '. . . touch-up with a plane', and '. . .
> > {questioning} the angle & slope ratio . .' beggars the question:
> Why not
> > do the entire task with the plane? In the time to drag out and set
> up
> > this equipment, a decent scarf {for epoxy 'gluing'} could be cut
> with a
> > simple Jack plane. To make things even simpler, make a 'reference
> card'
> > for the dimensions. All you need do is write down the thickness of
> the
> > sheet goods you normally use, then 'pre-calculate' the edge set-
> back for
> > the different ration {6:1, 8:1, 12:1} and write those down opposite
> the
>
> Believe me I can do the math, you need a dead level and firm surface
> for planing, by the time that is set up over 4x8' I could have this
> set up. It doesn't even begin to need to be as solid as a planing
> beam should be
>
> You only have to touch up the thicker sheets, and it requires the
> removal of only the last, say 15% of wood.
>
> A real Jack plane, has a curved blade, which ain't much of a help.
>
> The problem with the feathers is that the practical way to plane the
> edge is across grain, so one tends to tear the very fine edges. Not
> a problem with 1088, you just have the problem of time.
>
> > thickness'. For more 'finesse' a sliding t-bevel can be used to
> mark the
> > edge as a guide, and check progress . . . or to set-up 'odd'
> ratios.
>
> Marking gauge
>
> If
> > a 'MORE POWER' approach is desired . . . use a light weight BELT
> SANDER.
> > [NOTE: I find this took MUCH more controllable and 'error tolerant
> than
> > a Power Plane] Not only that, I find it to be a 'multi-tasking'
> tool . .
> > . a concept I personally like better than any 'single-use' variety!!
> >
>
> Yuck slow and dusty, since when can one not use a circular saw for
> something else? The jig itself takes up about the amount of space of
> a table saw fence. Not negligible, but not horrible
>
> I fully agree you don't need this jig, if your scarph production
> falls into the hardly ever through to barely ever category. It will
> please those who may be intimidated by scarphs, or those who need a
> fast way to get them. People who want a slow way, with lots of dust,
> to hardly ever make scarphs, should make other plans. ;0)
>
>
>
> >
> > Regards & Good Luck,
> > Ron Magen
> > Backyard Boatshop