Re: [bolger] Re: best dory for big surf
Surfboats were once cold moulded but now composites and foam sandwich with sliding seat boxes as buoyancy. Electric bailers throw huge amounts out. Boats are only about 24-30 ins wide on wl at rest and very tippy without oars. At 26ft long they are slow with one rower. I have an old one as a commuter boat with double bottom and water ballast for some stability at rest. 6 hp 4 stroke flies. More like a 26 ft canoe.
If one was decked and with a high rounded shelter for buoyant self righting plus big fresh water capacity dogged down in the bilge,it could be an ideal ocean crossing rowboat-much better than some that have made it ok,provided you think such things are sane.
I carry a tiny running sail for silence and security more from long habit and general distrust of anything mechanical at sea. I have seen a very nice little tri made from one using cambered laminated cross beams and hobie[?] amas. It went like mad and was practically an open boat that had been over to New Guinea and all over the Solomons at almost nil cost as old surfboats are a give away. If you're flat broke and can find some friends who want an adventure in the wet tropics,this would be a lot better than most of the unsuitable deep sailboats that never get to go into all the isolated parts that are the main reason for being there. Hence my love affair with the AS29. Nothing,but nothing equals the freedom of this craft for inshore sailing in uncharted waters. Thanks Phil,I hope you know how good this craft is in Oz. Andy
"pauldayau <wattleweedooseeds@...>" <wattleweedooseeds@...> wrote:--- In
narrow high sided boats for 4 rowers and a hlmsman with a sculling/
steering oar . lots of weight for stability didnt see any kind of
bailing system. they are usually raced out thruogh surf fast and on
the return leg , as andy says they hang on for dear life.
rarely seen for sail as they are rather bullet proff and get used to
destruction.
cheers paul
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If one was decked and with a high rounded shelter for buoyant self righting plus big fresh water capacity dogged down in the bilge,it could be an ideal ocean crossing rowboat-much better than some that have made it ok,provided you think such things are sane.
I carry a tiny running sail for silence and security more from long habit and general distrust of anything mechanical at sea. I have seen a very nice little tri made from one using cambered laminated cross beams and hobie[?] amas. It went like mad and was practically an open boat that had been over to New Guinea and all over the Solomons at almost nil cost as old surfboats are a give away. If you're flat broke and can find some friends who want an adventure in the wet tropics,this would be a lot better than most of the unsuitable deep sailboats that never get to go into all the isolated parts that are the main reason for being there. Hence my love affair with the AS29. Nothing,but nothing equals the freedom of this craft for inshore sailing in uncharted waters. Thanks Phil,I hope you know how good this craft is in Oz. Andy
"pauldayau <wattleweedooseeds@...>" <wattleweedooseeds@...> wrote:--- In
>effect
> 3) Get rid of shipped water quickly. I've never seen an Australian
> Lifeguard Dory, but my impression is that they have a massively
> buoyant bottom and huge drain holes right along the chine. The
> is almost as if the thing is a giant surfboard with the topsidesas
> being more important as a place to mount the oarlocks than for
> keeping water out. When they plow out through high surf, with large
> breakers combing the boat, the water rushes out the scuppers just
> fast as is comes in.I 've never seen scuppers on one.all that Ive seen were cold moulded
>
narrow high sided boats for 4 rowers and a hlmsman with a sculling/
steering oar . lots of weight for stability didnt see any kind of
bailing system. they are usually raced out thruogh surf fast and on
the return leg , as andy says they hang on for dear life.
rarely seen for sail as they are rather bullet proff and get used to
destruction.
cheers paul
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--- In
narrow high sided boats for 4 rowers and a hlmsman with a sculling/
steering oar . lots of weight for stability didnt see any kind of
bailing system. they are usually raced out thruogh surf fast and on
the return leg , as andy says they hang on for dear life.
rarely seen for sail as they are rather bullet proff and get used to
destruction.
cheers paul
>effect
> 3) Get rid of shipped water quickly. I've never seen an Australian
> Lifeguard Dory, but my impression is that they have a massively
> buoyant bottom and huge drain holes right along the chine. The
> is almost as if the thing is a giant surfboard with the topsidesas
> being more important as a place to mount the oarlocks than for
> keeping water out. When they plow out through high surf, with large
> breakers combing the boat, the water rushes out the scuppers just
> fast as is comes in.I 've never seen scuppers on one.all that Ive seen were cold moulded
>
narrow high sided boats for 4 rowers and a hlmsman with a sculling/
steering oar . lots of weight for stability didnt see any kind of
bailing system. they are usually raced out thruogh surf fast and on
the return leg , as andy says they hang on for dear life.
rarely seen for sail as they are rather bullet proff and get used to
destruction.
cheers paul
David,our surfboats only have buoyancy in the ends and shipped seas dump into the bottom where an electric pump throws it out at a huge rate. Because these boats,which were our standard surf rescue craft before rubber duckies, have to race in a wide variety of conditions from flat calm to horrendous,they are built for speed through the water and may not be optimum for surf survival. This amounts to a heresy and I trust nobody is watching. The sharp bow and deep fore-foot so good at giving a long waterline and for punching out through the break at max speed may actually be a defect when coming back to the beach which is why the crew races aft and lfts the bows clear. The hull now resembles a banana. This way gives a bit of the best of both shapes in the one race. Otherwise max flare ,rocker and as near to fully decked as possible is the way to go in big surf. Learning to swim and survive in surf may be an asset also....Andy
David Ryan <david@...> wrote:
three things well:
1) Ride over waves. Rocker and flair are helpful in this regard.
Flair helps to lift the bow over greenwater and white water, and a
rockered shape resists the pivoting of the lift less, and keeps the
stern from burying as easily as the boat is lifted and shoved
backwards. Almost nothing is helpful when faced with a cresting wave.
The bow can't lift fast enough and the wave combs over the boat.
Compounding this, the degree of lift from the bow is often just
enough to bury the stern without clearing the cresting wave. As the
wave pushes the boat backward, the stern digs in, and the boat turns
sideways. Game over.
2) Keep water out. I've played around in surf 3-4 meters in height in
a spray-skirted kayak. As long as you keep your wits about you, and
your skirt stays on, you're fine. When the skirt blows off, there's
nothing that can help you.
3) Get rid of shipped water quickly. I've never seen an Australian
Lifeguard Dory, but my impression is that they have a massively
buoyant bottom and huge drain holes right along the chine. The effect
is almost as if the thing is a giant surfboard with the topsides
being more important as a place to mount the oarlocks than for
keeping water out. When they plow out through high surf, with large
breakers combing the boat, the water rushes out the scuppers just as
fast as is comes in.
Speed is also an essential feature. Speed, along with a good feel for
the rhythm of the waves keeps you out of the sort of situations where
the above features are helpful. High flotation is also a good idea.
If you play in the surf, sooner or later the waves are going to get
the best of you. The higher your swamped boat floats, the more easily
you'll be able to guide it back to the beach.
Send pictures!
David
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415 W.46th Street
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http://www.crumblingempire.com
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Office (212) 247-0296
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David Ryan <david@...> wrote:
>> I'm interested in building a dory, and was wondering which would copeTo go out through surf, a boat must be able to do at least one of
>> the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
>> the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
>> Any ideas? - Tom
three things well:
1) Ride over waves. Rocker and flair are helpful in this regard.
Flair helps to lift the bow over greenwater and white water, and a
rockered shape resists the pivoting of the lift less, and keeps the
stern from burying as easily as the boat is lifted and shoved
backwards. Almost nothing is helpful when faced with a cresting wave.
The bow can't lift fast enough and the wave combs over the boat.
Compounding this, the degree of lift from the bow is often just
enough to bury the stern without clearing the cresting wave. As the
wave pushes the boat backward, the stern digs in, and the boat turns
sideways. Game over.
2) Keep water out. I've played around in surf 3-4 meters in height in
a spray-skirted kayak. As long as you keep your wits about you, and
your skirt stays on, you're fine. When the skirt blows off, there's
nothing that can help you.
3) Get rid of shipped water quickly. I've never seen an Australian
Lifeguard Dory, but my impression is that they have a massively
buoyant bottom and huge drain holes right along the chine. The effect
is almost as if the thing is a giant surfboard with the topsides
being more important as a place to mount the oarlocks than for
keeping water out. When they plow out through high surf, with large
breakers combing the boat, the water rushes out the scuppers just as
fast as is comes in.
Speed is also an essential feature. Speed, along with a good feel for
the rhythm of the waves keeps you out of the sort of situations where
the above features are helpful. High flotation is also a good idea.
If you play in the surf, sooner or later the waves are going to get
the best of you. The higher your swamped boat floats, the more easily
you'll be able to guide it back to the beach.
Send pictures!
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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"thomas_mackie <thomas_mackie@...>" <thomas_mackie@...> wrote:I'm interested in building a dory, and was wondering which would cope
the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
Any ideas? - Tom
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- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Hi Tom! I have rowed surfboats here on the east coast of Oz for a long time. I have also slapped together various quick' n' dirty instant dories and skiffs here and in the south pacific. Consider making your craft pretty expendable as you will probably total her in a big break. Think how much she weighs full of water and dumped onto the sand. Lots of buoyancy means she will ride into the shore break,with or without you. Think of the safety issues too... An oar will punch a hole in your ribs if the wave gets a hold of it and the boat will try and brain you if you get caught up in a big roll or end-for-ender. Others in the surf are equally at risk from flying bits and pieces[and you!]. You will probably come unstuck most often trying to ride back to the beach unless you can get your weight shifted right aft and still steer with a sweep oar. At this point,normal oars in rowlocks or tholes are worse than useless and very liable to dig in and either break,slew the craft around[bye bye!],or come inboard and attack the hapless rower. A very slim dory fully decked in and powered by a long double paddle that can flip around to become a sweep/rudder makes sense but I think we have just re-invented the surf ski? All that said,I must confess to lots of happy and foolish times messing about and breaking up skiffs and dories in all sorts of ill-considered adventures over the last 40+ years. Life was meant to be lived,not observed from a distance. Wear a PFD and a kayak helmet .
Andy
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the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
Any ideas? - Tom
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Hi Tom! I have rowed surfboats here on the east coast of Oz for a long time. I have also slapped together various quick' n' dirty instant dories and skiffs here and in the south pacific. Consider making your craft pretty expendable as you will probably total her in a big break. Think how much she weighs full of water and dumped onto the sand. Lots of buoyancy means she will ride into the shore break,with or without you. Think of the safety issues too... An oar will punch a hole in your ribs if the wave gets a hold of it and the boat will try and brain you if you get caught up in a big roll or end-for-ender. Others in the surf are equally at risk from flying bits and pieces[and you!]. You will probably come unstuck most often trying to ride back to the beach unless you can get your weight shifted right aft and still steer with a sweep oar. At this point,normal oars in rowlocks or tholes are worse than useless and very liable to dig in and either break,slew the craft around[bye bye!],or come inboard and attack the hapless rower. A very slim dory fully decked in and powered by a long double paddle that can flip around to become a sweep/rudder makes sense but I think we have just re-invented the surf ski? All that said,I must confess to lots of happy and foolish times messing about and breaking up skiffs and dories in all sorts of ill-considered adventures over the last 40+ years. Life was meant to be lived,not observed from a distance. Wear a PFD and a kayak helmet .
Andy
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Actually, the author of "The Dory Book" is John Gardner. The surf
dory plans are also
in Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft," as are plans for a
double ended gunning
dory and several swampscott-style dories.
dory plans are also
in Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft," as are plans for a
double ended gunning
dory and several swampscott-style dories.
I know this is a Bolger List, but you might consider the Tolman Skiff. The
designer, Renn Tolman has described launching his boats in similar
conditions. You can learn more about the Tolman Skiffs at his website:
http://www.xyz.net/~mgrt/
Renn has designed this skiff to work well in some pretty nasty conditions up
in Alaska. He's built over a hundred skiffs for commercial fishermen and
recreationals and continues to evolve the design. This is one Salty Skiff.
I also maintain a website for Tolman Skiffs at:
http://www.fishyfish.com/tolmanskiff.html
I'm building a Tolman Jumbo-a 22'x8' fishing boat, stitch and glue. This
boat will have a cuddy cabin and wheel house. Other Tolman
Skiffs include the Standard which can be built as 18' basic skiff.
You can check out my progress at:
http://www.fishyfish.com/mytolman.html
And last but not least I also am the founder of the Tolmanskiff group. There
are plenty of ex and current builders and owners on this list who are a
wealth of information and help.
tolmanskiff-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Take care,
Stephen Dampier
designer, Renn Tolman has described launching his boats in similar
conditions. You can learn more about the Tolman Skiffs at his website:
http://www.xyz.net/~mgrt/
Renn has designed this skiff to work well in some pretty nasty conditions up
in Alaska. He's built over a hundred skiffs for commercial fishermen and
recreationals and continues to evolve the design. This is one Salty Skiff.
I also maintain a website for Tolman Skiffs at:
http://www.fishyfish.com/tolmanskiff.html
I'm building a Tolman Jumbo-a 22'x8' fishing boat, stitch and glue. This
boat will have a cuddy cabin and wheel house. Other Tolman
Skiffs include the Standard which can be built as 18' basic skiff.
You can check out my progress at:
http://www.fishyfish.com/mytolman.html
And last but not least I also am the founder of the Tolmanskiff group. There
are plenty of ex and current builders and owners on this list who are a
wealth of information and help.
tolmanskiff-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Take care,
Stephen Dampier
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 08:06:22 -0000
> From: "thomas_mackie <thomas_mackie@...>" <thomas_mackie@...>
> Subject: best dory for big surf
>
> I'm interested in building a dory, and was wondering which would cope
> the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
> the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
> Any ideas? - Tom
You would do well to buy or get William Gardener's Dory book from
the library. Gardener is the definitive authority on Dories and has a
Surf Dory in his book with all the directions to build it. I also
agree with David's advice and try to get a surf dory from the beaches
of your own countrymen. The only problem with that is they are not
single handled Dories and require a mate or two to go out with you.
The Surf Dory from Gardener can be single handed and is double ended
just in case you get turned around in the surf and you can keep going.
John
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_mackie <thomas_mackie@y...>"
<thomas_mackie@y...> wrote:
the library. Gardener is the definitive authority on Dories and has a
Surf Dory in his book with all the directions to build it. I also
agree with David's advice and try to get a surf dory from the beaches
of your own countrymen. The only problem with that is they are not
single handled Dories and require a mate or two to go out with you.
The Surf Dory from Gardener can be single handed and is double ended
just in case you get turned around in the surf and you can keep going.
John
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "thomas_mackie <thomas_mackie@y...>"
<thomas_mackie@y...> wrote:
> I'm interested in building a dory, and was wondering which wouldcope
> the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia,near
> the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
> Any ideas? - Tom
>> I'm interested in building a dory, and was wondering which would copeTo go out through surf, a boat must be able to do at least one of
>> the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
>> the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
>> Any ideas? - Tom
three things well:
1) Ride over waves. Rocker and flair are helpful in this regard.
Flair helps to lift the bow over greenwater and white water, and a
rockered shape resists the pivoting of the lift less, and keeps the
stern from burying as easily as the boat is lifted and shoved
backwards. Almost nothing is helpful when faced with a cresting wave.
The bow can't lift fast enough and the wave combs over the boat.
Compounding this, the degree of lift from the bow is often just
enough to bury the stern without clearing the cresting wave. As the
wave pushes the boat backward, the stern digs in, and the boat turns
sideways. Game over.
2) Keep water out. I've played around in surf 3-4 meters in height in
a spray-skirted kayak. As long as you keep your wits about you, and
your skirt stays on, you're fine. When the skirt blows off, there's
nothing that can help you.
3) Get rid of shipped water quickly. I've never seen an Australian
Lifeguard Dory, but my impression is that they have a massively
buoyant bottom and huge drain holes right along the chine. The effect
is almost as if the thing is a giant surfboard with the topsides
being more important as a place to mount the oarlocks than for
keeping water out. When they plow out through high surf, with large
breakers combing the boat, the water rushes out the scuppers just as
fast as is comes in.
Speed is also an essential feature. Speed, along with a good feel for
the rhythm of the waves keeps you out of the sort of situations where
the above features are helpful. High flotation is also a good idea.
If you play in the surf, sooner or later the waves are going to get
the best of you. The higher your swamped boat floats, the more easily
you'll be able to guide it back to the beach.
Send pictures!
David
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
Anybody know where the picture of Crystal going out through the surf in
Australia is?
Crystal was designed by PCB to be his tender/lifeboat on Resolution I
believe. I will look through the books and find the article.
She is not a Dory, but designed to row and handle weather.
HJ
Australia is?
Crystal was designed by PCB to be his tender/lifeboat on Resolution I
believe. I will look through the books and find the article.
She is not a Dory, but designed to row and handle weather.
HJ
> I'm interested in building a dory, and was wondering which would cope
> the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
> the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
> Any ideas? - Tom
>
I'm interested in building a dory, and was wondering which would cope
the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
Any ideas? - Tom
the best for getting out through the surf. I live in Australia, near
the famous Bell's Beach. Waves are often at least a metre here.
Any ideas? - Tom