[bolger] Re: small square boat

BO>I can't understand your insistence on a square section. Building a boat on t

BO>Of course, if you want a square boat so you can be part the
too-cool-for-school Square-Boat Mob (led by Mr. Fatchen), then you have a much
nobler purpose and should be commended for persisting in your endeavour.

BO>John Bell

As he rises like a slow trout to a fly...
One of the nice things about flared boats, eg the Light Schooner (plug)
is that you end up with straight side panels and don't have to cut the
curves in panels needed to construct a square boat! You should approach
flare or lack thereof from a viewpoint of load-carrying, tippiness and
perceived use. To wave square red rags in front of the conventionally
flared bull is not really a noble purpose, but more a publick mischief.

Tim & Flying Tadpole

"Better an old trout than a flounder..."
"Flares - the fashion satement of the '70s"
You are getting promiscuous in your "THAT'S A KEEPER" award. Now this last
item is pretty good, but it pales compared to what must be the last word that
can be said on the sharpie definition; i.e.:

1) if it has oyster shells in the bilge, its a sharpie;
2) if it has cod fish bones in the bilge, its a dory,
3) if it has crawdads in the bilge, its a piroque,
4) if it has an empty beer can in the bilge, its just a skiff.

Now this really is terrific. Beats any haiku I've ever read. I'm afraid my
finger on the "delete" function is faster than my brain, so I didn't note who
the author was, but he (she) is a genius.
Take a look at Karl Stambaugh"s designs too. He does the "Windward Designs" at Chesapeake Marine Design, at 1 800 376 3152 in Severna Park, Md. Clyde Wisner

Lincoln Ross wrote:

Anyone know a square boat smaller (lighter) than June Bug with same
capacity? Would have considered Brick if it rowed ok. Mr. Michalak has
a couple of boats like this but they are not square. Having attack of
realism about building times, but want to sail and row before season
gets too old. Would like to slap together at max speed out of
lumberyard stuff (no ocuome), still be able to pick up and put on car,
and still sail and row ok. Buoyancy tanks somewhere between a plus and
a necessity. Payload to be 400+ lbs. Someday in future could make
stitch and glue glassed ocuome light, large boat, but want to sail soon
with nail and glue as simple as possible. ALso good for "what the !@#$
is that?" points.

Thanks

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As an alternative to a square boat, maybe I could turn my Nymph into a
Reubens Nymph by cutting in half and adding section to the middle? Or
maybe I could be really weird and cut it across the middle and make it
longer. Anyone have experience with Reubens Nymph? What does it row or
sail like? Seems like it would have enuf additional capacity and would
be less tender. Not sure, but thinking it might be less work than
building a Brick, and would end up glassed all over to boot.

Whether it would still fit under the porch is another question. Would
definitely not nest under the Roar II on top of the car after the
modification.
This is exactly how I "designed" my little 12 foot skiff, and she has been a
delight to row (still a work-in-progress to sail!).

Don Hodges
dhodges@...
http://www.ecoastlife.com
Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
----- Original Message -----
From: David Beede <juliejj@...>
To: <bolger@...>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 10:44 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: small square boat


>
>
> Lincoln Ross wrote:
> Maybe. But I still don't understand how flare can be easier than no
> flare.
>
> Play with a little card stock. I use file folder stock too.
>
> Try cutting some matching pairs of card stock about an inch wide and 8
> inches long. Stack them on top of each other and cut an angle in both
> ends. Experiment with the angle, from say 45 degrees to square and play
> with it. Scotch tape the ends together as the sides would meet at the
> stems and you have some instant pretty attractive dory shapes, or peeros
> or sharpies. You get rocker and a pleasant looking shear from even
> straight "sides." It will show you how some materials like to take on
> flared shapes. Hence when you attach ply to a properly angled stem with
> a little rake, and pull it to it's transom the stuff really wants to
> flow into a nice flare. It's the nature of the material and it's part of
> a good design to make use of those properties.
>
> Go for what pleases your eyes. Your hands can build it with little
> trouble. You'll have to look at her long after you're done building her,
> so make her so she makes you smile to see her. That's my vote anyway.
> David
>
> SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
> Feed someone.
>http://www.thehungersite.com/
> Save a little rainforest.
>http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
>
> Simplicity Boats
>http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
> Here's my latest boat:
>http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
> Quasi esoteric musical instruments
>http://unicornstrings.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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david beede <juliej-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2756
>
>
> Lincoln Ross wrote:
> Maybe. But I still don't understand how flare can be easier than no
> flare.
>
> Play with a little card stock. I use file folder stock too.
>
> Try cutting some matching pairssnip cut an angle in both
> ends. snipinstant pretty attractive dory shapes, or peeros
> or sharpies. You get rocker and a pleasant looking shear from even
> straight "sides." It will show you how some materials like to take on
> flared shapes. Hence when you attach ply to a properly angled stem
with
> a little rake, and pull it to it's transom the stuff really wants to
> flow into a nice flare. It's the nature of the material and it's part
of
> a good design to make use of those properties.
I understand how it works, but I always figured it was a little extra
trouble. I'm now convinced it's not much extra trouble.
>
> Go for what pleases your eyes. snip
That would be Junebug with just a little extra sheer.
>
> snip
I must admit I'm overwhelmed at the durability and popularity of this
thread. Now if this network included teleportation we could have all
pitched in and finished a boat by now. And I'd be zapping over and
working on your boats, because someone else's problem is always more
interesting than mine. THanks all for the input.

When the weather warms up I'm going to have to build more and talk less.
"john bell" <jmbel-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2743
>
> -snip If June Bug is what you want, build it even
> though it weighs 90 lbs because you used BC pine. You won't notice the
> weight on the water, I promise. And if there are two of you, you
won't care
> about the weight on the land.
>
I recall Payson built one that got up to 150 lbs! And that's too much
even for two of us. I was thinking it would be good to keep it under
100 lbs. Yes I could lift more today, but tomorrow I might have
tenderized my back. Mentally moving in the Brick direction, because I
wouldn't be drawn into making it too nice.
Lincoln Ross wrote:
Maybe. But I still don't understand how flare can be easier than no
flare.

Play with a little card stock. I use file folder stock too.

Try cutting some matching pairs of card stock about an inch wide and 8
inches long. Stack them on top of each other and cut an angle in both
ends. Experiment with the angle, from say 45 degrees to square and play
with it. Scotch tape the ends together as the sides would meet at the
stems and you have some instant pretty attractive dory shapes, or peeros
or sharpies. You get rocker and a pleasant looking shear from even
straight "sides." It will show you how some materials like to take on
flared shapes. Hence when you attach ply to a properly angled stem with
a little rake, and pull it to it's transom the stuff really wants to
flow into a nice flare. It's the nature of the material and it's part of
a good design to make use of those properties.

Go for what pleases your eyes. Your hands can build it with little
trouble. You'll have to look at her long after you're done building her,
so make her so she makes you smile to see her. That's my vote anyway.
David

SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rainforest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296

Simplicity Boats
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
> Before you start, ask yourself "If it takes my twice as much money,
> and twice as much time as I think it will to finish this boat; and if
> when I'm finished, someone comes in the dead of night and burns her
> to the ground before I've even taken a picture, let alone sailed her;
> will I consider my time and my money wasted?"
>
> If the answer is "yes," don't start. If it's "no," you never have to
> worry about building the wrong boat the wrong way.
>



WOW, ANOTHER KEEPER!!!!

This too will be printed out and framed to go into the Snow Goose.
Stan
In MAIB a few years back there was a long series on a coastal cuiser called
Paradox. I remember being surprised by the writer's claim that that the
exterior chine logs functioned to prevent leeway... Any comments??

>>cut. That's an argument for square boat as I can't make myself believe
>>exterior chine piece doesn't cause extra drag. BUt if I could grit my

> I've noticed that the exterior chine log gives me enough bite in the
>water to reach across a 4-inch deep bay without making much leeway. Not
>enough for windward work, though. Still need thick enough water top put
the
>dagger board down at least a little for that.

--
Meyer
>Not just nice, damned near miraculous! ...
>When I bent the ends in to the stem and stern, I was fairly well
>overcome. I was Saul, struck from his horse. From a modest stack of
>wood, wrought and wrung together with my own hands there was suddenly
>a flairy, curvy, beautiful little boat. I was amazed and delighted.

It _is_ a wonder -- much like the miracle of a loaf of bread rising.

>...the other 51% percent runs home to get
>the book and the plans and starts dancing around yelling "You can do
>it too! ... Of course they've all got some excuse

If you go to a gathering like the MASCF, where 150 guys have brought the
boats they built, you can sense that there is a difference between the
people who have realized the dream of building a boat (a dream shared by at
least 1/3 of all men and boys) and those who just let it slip away.

Patrick
>cut. That's an argument for square boat as I can't make myself believe
>exterior chine piece doesn't cause extra drag. BUt if I could grit my


I've noticed that the exterior chine log gives me enough bite in the
water to reach across a 4-inch deep bay without making much leeway. Not
enough for windward work, though. Still need thick enough water top put the
dagger board down at least a little for that.
It would be interesting to see how much more the water flow is disturbed
by exterior logs than just by a hard chine. Given that the boat moves in
the direction of the log, I suspect that the difference is minimal at most
speeds. It certainly can't be more disturbing than the stiffening skids on
the bottom of the Windsprint.

Patrick
Date sent: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:19:00 -0800
From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>
To:bolger@...
Send reply to:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: small square boat
Lincoln Ross wrote:
> Well, I'd stiffen up the gunwhales with another layer. My Roar II
> project is not floppy on the side where the gunwhale didn't crack. And
> my Nymph, where I'm using 3 1X1's for the gunwhale so I can take out
> the frames, is REALLY STIFF. And again, it's two large people, which
> probably makes the loading even worse than 3 medium sized people.

Yes, sometimes the Bolger gunwhales seem quite light. A friend
of mine built a Zephyr about 15 years ago, and I remember
watching with fascination, the shape of the sides of the boat
change as we tacked, depending which side the leeboard was on!
Maybe Bolger has a fiendish design secret where the boat goes
assymetric and lifts to windward like Lunar Rossa!
However, it all seemed to hold together, and I remember those
sparkling sails with fondness.
Don
->I accept rocker as a necessity. But I should think getting the bevel on
>the chine logs would be more work unless I had a table saw and was
>ripping up the stock myself. And I should think that rectangles are
>easier than trapezoids. And I should think the rectangular bulkheads
>would just sit there until I screwed them in instead of squirting out.


Beveling chine logs is an absolute non-issue. The sequence of steps for the
Windspring is:

1. Bevel the stem & stern posts. I didn't have a table saw, so I used my
Skil circular saw.
2. Cut our the molds (trapezoids). Plane an approximate bevel on the
forward and after molds for the sides of the boat.
3. Fasten the sides to the center mold with a couple of small nails, bend
to the forward and after molds and fasten with a couple nails, and then
fasten to the stem and sternposts with glue and nails.
4. When the ends dry (or while they are drying) glue and nail _UNbeveled_
chine logs on the sides.
5. When the chine log glue is dry, get a 4' straight-edge (4' aluminum
rules are avaiable for modest cost at Home Depot &c.), lay it from side to
side across the boat, grab a block plane and have fun making 16 foot long
wood ribbons as you bevel off just enough chine log and plywood to allow the
straight edge to lie flat across the two sides. If you are using epoxy
glue, approximately flat is good enough. If you are using Weldwood, you
want to be as exact as you can. I spent less than an hour planing, and I
think planing of this sort is the most fun thing you get to do when building
a boat. (So if you don't enjoy it, you would probably get it done inless
time). Unfortunately, at 3-1/2, my daughter was too young to fully
appreciate just how clever I was to be able to make such long wood ribbons.
6. Lay the bottom plywood on the boat, trace the shape from the sides, cut
it out roughly, glue and nail it on, plane the edge smooth with the chine
log after the glue dries.

The great advantage of this design over something like June Bug is that you
don't have to lay out any curved shapes. You just need a ruler and a chalk
line to lay out the important panels for this boat, and a Skilsaw to cut
everything. Real easy. And when people see it, they say, "That can't be a
Bolger boat -- much too pretty!" (These would be the people who have never
seen Wisp & other truly beautiful Bolger designs.)

BTW, the designed hull weight of Windsprint is supposed to be about 100
pounds. I car-topped mine on a '78 Bonneville station wagon until the car
died, then bought a $300 trailer kit to pull it behind a Mazda Protege. I
think mine probably weighs 130 or 140 pounds. I'm sure Teal weighs less.

Patrick
----- Original Message -----
From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
>
> I agree, for my current purposes. However, people seem to think it
> sails so well that if I already had something in the water it would be
> worth taking the time, and I will only build a JB if it is light enough
> for EASY cartopping. SO if I use cheap materials I need to build a
> shorter boat. THe extra $200 in plywood would easily be paid for by the
> reduction in chiropractic bills and the extra times I'd go out because
> there was less hassle with the boat. I might consider some commercial
> boat, but the fiberglass boats I've seen all weigh a lot. Plus their
> rigs are usually too complicated, though I haven't really investigated
> because eccentricity is a plus. It's bad enuf I drive a Saturn.

Having spent a decade or more with boats constantly on the roof of my cars
I used to be a very active WW kayaker, before kids), I feel somewhat
qualified to comment on weight of cartopped boats. In my honest opinion,
once you get over 40 lbs, weight hardly matters. Forty pounds is about the
most anyone feels comfortable lifting single-handedly to the roof of their
car. Much more weight than that and you'll want help. Unless you build
kayak, I can't think of many inexpensive boats over 8' long that meet the 40
lb. criteria. So what's it matter if it weighs 68 lbs or 98 lbs? Either way,
you're probably going to need help to get it loaded on the roof racks.

I can get my ~85 lb. dory on the roof of my Taurus by myself, but it isn't
fun. Same with my 65 lb. tandem canoe. One wrong move and I could easily
hurt myself or damage my car and boat. It's usually not an issue since
there's nearly always a bystander willing to help. My advice -- build a
cheap boat fast and have fun. If June Bug is what you want, build it even
though it weighs 90 lbs because you used BC pine. You won't notice the
weight on the water, I promise. And if there are two of you, you won't care
about the weight on the land.

YMMV,

John Bell
Kennesaw, GA
jmbell@...
http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com
In a message dated 00-02-14 17:44:55 EST, you write:

<< I'm getting the impression that the JB is pretty unique, and that there
aren't any smaller square boats except the Brick. >>

Tortoise 6 ft 5 in length Beam 3 ft 2 in Also a Bolger Design Plans from
Payson.-Warren
i built jb out of A/C fir its light enuf for me to throw in the back of the
pickup and take out and throw on this lil dolley thingy i built to push it
down to the water. D.W.Johnson
thats about how i did my punt i let the chine go past the side a lil bit and
jig sawed it really close then planed it to finish it i did the same with a
piece of 2x laid from one side to the other D.W.Johnson
tjfatche-@...wrote:
snip
> "Flares - the fashion satement of the '70s"
>
>
I thought the whole point of the fashion industry was to keep you from
being sated. Just ask Mick or Devo.
David Ryan wrote...
>Not just nice, damned near miraculous! When I got my teal plans and
>saw those parallel sides, I was very relieved. The though of having
>to draw someone else's curve (grid or no grid) was daunting to say
>the least.

>When I bent the ends in to the stem and stern, I was fairly well
>overcome. I was Saul, struck from his horse. From a modest stack of
>wood, wrought and wrung together with my own hands there was suddenly
>a flairy, curvy, beautiful little boat. I was amazed and delighted.

Umm.. this is what all the "instant boats" are about. I think you will get
the same result from all the instant boats. I can give eye-witness testimony
for Windsprint. "Instant boats" are not like instant coffee but they are
real boats that a (modern-day )handyman can make. More cheers for PCB and
Dynamite Payson!

--
Meyer
>BO>I can't understand your insistence on a square section. Building
>a boat on t
>
>BO>Of course, if you want a square boat so you can be part the
>too-cool-for-school Square-Boat Mob (led by Mr. Fatchen), then you have a much
>nobler purpose and should be commended for persisting in your endeavour.
>
>BO>John Bell
>
>As he rises like a slow trout to a fly...
>One of the nice things about flared boats, eg the Light Schooner (plug)
>is that you end up with straight side panels and don't have to cut the
>curves in panels needed to construct a square boat!

Not just nice, damned near miraculous! When I got my teal plans and
saw those parallel sides, I was very relieved. The though of having
to draw someone else's curve (grid or no grid) was daunting to say
the least.

When I bent the ends in to the stem and stern, I was fairly well
overcome. I was Saul, struck from his horse. From a modest stack of
wood, wrought and wrung together with my own hands there was suddenly
a flairy, curvy, beautiful little boat. I was amazed and delighted.

Noone asks why the teal is shaped the way she is, she looks just a
like a little boat should. Everyone who sees her who has a set of
some other dingy plans moldering away wants to know how I got such a
nice curve. 49% of me wants to keep it a secret and let them worship
me as a boat building god, but the other 51% percent runs home to get
the book and the plans and starts dancing around yelling "You can do
it too! We could have a whole fleet of teals and surfs and zephyrs
launching off the beach and decorating the ocean by day and the dune
by night!"

Of course they've all got some excuse, so a dozen grown men stand
there, hands jammed in their pockets, plowing sand with their toes,
waiting for the summer swells that are too few and too far between in
Montauk. And I -- I take the girls out sailing and watch their
bikini's shift when we tack!

******

A new maxim for boat building:

Before you start, ask yourself "If it takes my twice as much money,
and twice as much time as I think it will to finish this boat; and if
when I'm finished, someone comes in the dead of night and burns her
to the ground before I've even taken a picture, let alone sailed her;
will I consider my time and my money wasted?"

If the answer is "yes," don't start. If it's "no," you never have to
worry about building the wrong boat the wrong way.

YIBB,

David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
Scandalous! I've sailed my JB with 5 on board. Sluggish, but we move. Two
under sail is joyful. Decks are spendid to dive from and keep huge amounts
of water out when coming through surf.
jeb
>
> A June Bug is full with two especially if one is not rowing. (Wife does
>not sweat well :-() ). Sailing with two is not comfortable. Tho I have not
>sailed this one, I have left the seats out, decks off for more room sailing.
>
>
>Tim - the one in Houston (Spring)
>
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Cool! I've frequently carried my JB on the roof of my 92 Saturn. Front wheel
drive is a blessing at a boat ramp.

jeb, with abs on the shores of Fundy


At 02:40 PM 2/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2711
>>snip
>>
>> This is a trap!
>>
>> Don't build the Junebug out of marine ply. It'll just make you spend
>> more time and more money on it than you ought to.
>>
>> David Ryan
>> Minister of Information and Culture
>> Crumbling Empire Productions
>> (212) 247-0296
>
>I agree, for my current purposes. However, people seem to think it
>sails so well that if I already had something in the water it would be
>worth taking the time, and I will only build a JB if it is light enough
>for EASY cartopping. SO if I use cheap materials I need to build a
>shorter boat. THe extra $200 in plywood would easily be paid for by the
>reduction in chiropractic bills and the extra times I'd go out because
>there was less hassle with the boat. I might consider some commercial
>boat, but the fiberglass boats I've seen all weigh a lot. Plus their
>rigs are usually too complicated, though I haven't really investigated
>because eccentricity is a plus. It's bad enuf I drive a Saturn.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
>as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
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>
>
chris crandall <crandal-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2717
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Lincoln Ross wrote:
> > ok, maybe we are only talking an hour or two, I guess, or 3% or so
of
> > the labor on the boat. But it seems that flare is an unnecessary
> > feature.
>
> Not always. On Teal, it gives looks, yes, but also makes the planks
that
> form the sides Dead Straight. snip
>
> And these sheer and chine lines are *Dead Flat*, until bent around the
> frame, and then they are beautifully sweeping. snip

Light dawns on marble head. I'd forgotten about that feature. Makes the
plywood layout easier. However, as a former draftsman (and current CAD
user) I don't really have a problem with measuring and drawing out
stuff. I admit that uses up some chunk of the time advantage (maybe
even half) and gives a slightly increased chance of messing up. Maybe
I'll have to go back and look at some of those.
>
>snip
> > I'd leave out the thwarts and otherwise strip out the interior,
maybe
> > use 3/8 for the bottom and leave off those strips on the bottom.
>
> And get a flimsy boat that couldn't support the weight of 3 people.
> Thwarts serve the purpose of frames--they are not just waste material
> added.
>
Well, I'd stiffen up the gunwhales with another layer. My Roar II
project is not floppy on the side where the gunwhale didn't crack. And
my Nymph, where I'm using 3 1X1's for the gunwhale so I can take out
the frames, is REALLY STIFF. And again, it's two large people, which
probably makes the loading even worse than 3 medium sized people.

> > Is there some reason why one couldn't put the chine logs on the
inside
> > with a sufficient amount beyond the edge of the wood so you could
> > still bevel them?
>
> Yes, but, I thought you were interested in easy. Do you know the
> appropriate techniques for putting an interior chine log?

I'm sure you're right, and it would take some time. Could probably
slobber in filler, tape and glass faster than I could figure the exact
cut. That's an argument for square boat as I can't make myself believe
exterior chine piece doesn't cause extra drag. BUt if I could grit my
teeth and ignore it I'm sure exterior chine log would be somewhat
easier and faster to build. As far as the correct overlap so there's
enuf wood to plane, I'd use my marking guage on it.
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Lincoln Ross wrote:
> because eccentricity is a plus. It's bad enuf I drive a Saturn.

My Bolger boat looks great on my Saturn.

Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Lincoln Ross wrote:
> ok, maybe we are only talking an hour or two, I guess, or 3% or so of
> the labor on the boat. But it seems that flare is an unnecessary
> feature.

Not always. On Teal, it gives looks, yes, but also makes the planks that
form the sides Dead Straight. You cut a 4X8 sheet of plywood into three
strips of 16 inches, and then cut two of those strips with a diagonal cut,
leaving you with topsides of

______________________
\ /
\__________________/

And these sheer and chine lines are *Dead Flat*, until bent around the
frame, and then they are beautifully sweeping. Then, you turn the boat
upside down, attach the chine logs to the outsides. The tips of the chine
logs stand proud of the hull side, but it is a *pleasure* of the first
order to plane those babies down, so that they are flush and flat with the
hull.

Then, it's hardly difficult to attach the plywood bottom on, roll on some
epoxy and fiberglass tape for the edges, paint, and get out on the water!


> I'd leave out the thwarts and otherwise strip out the interior, maybe
> use 3/8 for the bottom and leave off those strips on the bottom.

And get a flimsy boat that couldn't support the weight of 3 people.
Thwarts serve the purpose of frames--they are not just waste material
added.

> Is there some reason why one couldn't put the chine logs on the inside
> with a sufficient amount beyond the edge of the wood so you could
> still bevel them?

Yes, but, I thought you were interested in easy. Do you know the
appropriate techniques for putting an interior chine log? Payson doesn't
describe them, nor does Bolger. (They aren't tough, but you do have to
cut a complex cut on the end of the chine logs when interior. Exterior,
it's just hack away as you please.)

Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2711
>snip
>
> This is a trap!
>
> Don't build the Junebug out of marine ply. It'll just make you spend
> more time and more money on it than you ought to.
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296

I agree, for my current purposes. However, people seem to think it
sails so well that if I already had something in the water it would be
worth taking the time, and I will only build a JB if it is light enough
for EASY cartopping. SO if I use cheap materials I need to build a
shorter boat. THe extra $200 in plywood would easily be paid for by the
reduction in chiropractic bills and the extra times I'd go out because
there was less hassle with the boat. I might consider some commercial
boat, but the fiberglass boats I've seen all weigh a lot. Plus their
rigs are usually too complicated, though I haven't really investigated
because eccentricity is a plus. It's bad enuf I drive a Saturn.
jmbel-@...wrote:
snip
>
> snip Even June Bug, you still have to bevel the stem, the molds, and
the >transom. The additonal bevel on the chine logs isn't that much
trouble, IMO. >With outside chine logs, it's easy attach them while
they are still square and >cut the bevels by hand with a block plane.
It only took me about 30 minutes to >rough out the bevels on one side
of my Windsprint this way.

ok, maybe we are only talking an hour or two, I guess, or 3% or so of
the labor on the boat. But it seems that flare is an unnecessary
feature. Maybe I can get rid of some other unnecessary features too,
and save quite a few hours. For instance, if I did a JB (and the only
reason I'm not contemplating this is the weight when done with
lumberyard stuff), I'd leave out the thwarts and otherwise strip out
the interior, maybe use 3/8 for the bottom and leave off those strips
on the bottom. Is there some reason why one couldn't put the chine logs
on the inside with a sufficient amount beyond the edge of the wood so
you could still bevel them? I wonder if one could attach a stick to the
side of the block plane, parallel to the bottom, which would rest
across the other chine and hold the plane at the right angle?
>
> Of course, if you want a square boat so you can be part the
>too-cool-for-school Square-Boat Mob (led by Mr. Fatchen), then you
have a much >nobler purpose and should be commended for persisting in
your endeavour.

There's some of that in my motivation, and a lot of "what the !@#$ is
that?". What I don't understand is, if flare is so easy, why doesn't
Mr. Bolger put just a little in the square boats?
>
> But a square Piccup squared? Isn't that equivalent to a Brick?

No. It's longer, and the sides are still curved, just not flared. I'd
leave that curve out too, but I suspect it wouldn't row or sail well.

various snippage

I'm getting the impression that the JB is pretty unique, and that there
aren't any smaller square boats except the Brick.

Maybe there's some other solution to this problem that's off in a
completely different direction and I'm not seeing it.

Thanks, everybody, for all the comments. Interesting
>
>That was the other guy. I just want to float 400 lbs. of crew, which in
>our case is two people plus about 1 sandwich and a quart of water.
>THanks for the advice. I may just go for Piccup Squared. I admire June
>Bug, but if I built one I would do it with light marine ply so I could
>cartop it easily, and therefore fancier, to justify the ply, probably

This is a trap!

Don't build the Junebug out of marine ply. It'll just make you spend
more time and more money on it than you ought to.

David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
> >
> I accept rocker as a necessity. But I should think getting the bevel
on
> the chine logs would be more work unless I had a table saw and was
> ripping up the stock myself.

As I recall, when I built my Elegant Punt, I put on the chine logs
before doing anything about the bevel. I planed the bevel on each chine
in about an hour (each) with an ordinary bench plane. This is from
someone who does not know how to use a plane: not how to sharpen it,
not how to set the blade in the right place... It's easy to put a piece
of stock across the boat to see if you have it at the right angle.

Certainly nothing to be afraid of.

Peter
Lincoln Ross wrote:
Appreciate the suggestion, but:
1. not square
2. too small (we are large, though I suspect it's almost close enuf)
Hoping for OPTIMIZED to deal with 400 lbs.

I'm thinking a version of PICCUP SQUARED that was actually square would
be nice.



I can't understand your insistence on a square section. Building a boat on that section is not going to save any time significant time over building a boat a boat with flared sides. The argument that a square section saves cutting bevels is a pretty weak one. Even June Bug, you still have to bevel the stem, the molds, and the transom. The additonal bevel on the chine logs isn't that much trouble, IMO. With outside chine logs, it's easy attach them while they are still square and cut the bevels by hand with a block plane. It only took me about 30 minutes to rough out the bevels on one side of my Windsprint this way.

Of course, if you want a square boat so you can be part the too-cool-for-school Square-Boat Mob (led by Mr. Fatchen), then you have a much nobler purpose and should be commended for persisting in your endeavour.

But a square Piccup squared? Isn't that equivalent to a Brick?

John Bell
List,

>Mr Ross, I believe you are confused. You think that a "square" boat will
>be easier and faster to build than a boat with rocker, or flared sides.
>This is not the case--really. A Teal can be built by an experienced
>person in a day, easily. By a competing team of two, if can be built in a
>few hours.
>
>By me, having built one already, I could build one in about 20 hours,
>exclusive of finishing. I am not a serious expert.
>

I would like to support Chris' statements here. A June Bug can also be
built in a weekend by one person. My last was my 4th and the first one that
belonged to me!!!! After building it in a weekend, I hurt an arm and it
took over a year to get it into the water!!!!!

I have owned and sailed MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE boats than the JB. I often feel
guilty having so much fun rowing a $75 boat!!!!! But I recover quickly.

>The thing of it is, flare and rocker are *EASY AND FAST* to build.
>Many times, it's easier than square boats.
>
>Square boats are square only in section, mind you, they still have rocker.
>You seem to be setting aside excellent advice because of a misconception
>about what's easy to build.
>
>A Teal is quick and easy. It's not for 3 adults, though.

A June Bug is full with two especially if one is not rowing. (Wife does
not sweat well :-() ). Sailing with two is not comfortable. Tho I have not
sailed this one, I have left the seats out, decks off for more room sailing.


Tim - the one in Houston (Spring)
chris crandall <crandal-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2702
>snip
> The thing of it is, flare and rocker are *EASY AND FAST* to build.
> Many times, it's easier than square boats.
>
I accept rocker as a necessity. But I should think getting the bevel on
the chine logs would be more work unless I had a table saw and was
ripping up the stock myself. And I should think that rectangles are
easier than trapezoids. And I should think the rectangular bulkheads
would just sit there until I screwed them in instead of squirting out.
But maybe I'm missing something. I suppose there's still some bevel on
bulkheads, stem, transom.
> Square boats are square only in section, mind you, they still have
rocker.
I understand this.
> You seem to be setting aside excellent advice because of a
misconception
> about what's easy to build.
Maybe. But I still don't understand how flare can be easier than no
flare.
>
> A Teal is quick and easy. It's not for 3 adults, though.
That was the other guy. I just want to float 400 lbs. of crew, which in
our case is two people plus about 1 sandwich and a quart of water.
THanks for the advice. I may just go for Piccup Squared. I admire June
Bug, but if I built one I would do it with light marine ply so I could
cartop it easily, and therefore fancier, to justify the ply, probably
even stitch and glue. I admire Brick, but I don't trust the wind not to
die off at max distance from launch. All still a pipe dream until I
touch wood with saw. And I should get my current boats out of the way.
Can't help but agree with David's Teal advice. Sure sounds like what you're after. Teal's flare is certainly not problematic re. construction. Her sides are easier to cut out than June Bug's. But having said that I'm quite sure that PCB, in the original article describing JB, said her length could be adjusted at builders discretion. Her rocker will automatically increase (or decrease) as needed. A 13' JB, esp. made with light weight ply and spruce for frames and chine logs, would weigh in well under 100 lbs. As I've stated in earlier entries, I've always car/truck topped mine, which is well over that weight.

As for the "what the... is that" factor, JB is a winner. Last summer sailing Lake Simcoe in Ontario someone yelled from his passing motorized plastic monstrosity " that looks like something Tim the Tool Man Taylor might have built". Before he got out of ear shot I countered, "that looks like something you got at a hot tub clearance sale". Left him scratching his head, but it felt good.

jeb, smugly watching the freezing rain, contemplating my drive back home to the Fundy shore
> > Slap yer self together a teal!

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Lincoln Ross wrote:
> Appreciate the suggestion, but:
> 1. not square
> 2. too small (we are large, though I suspect it's almost close enuf)
> Hoping for OPTIMIZED to deal with 400 lbs. I'm thinking a version of
> PICCUP SQUARED that was actually square would be nice.

Mr Ross, I believe you are confused. You think that a "square" boat will
be easier and faster to build than a boat with rocker, or flared sides.
This is not the case--really. A Teal can be built by an experienced
person in a day, easily. By a competing team of two, if can be built in a
few hours.

By me, having built one already, I could build one in about 20 hours,
exclusive of finishing. I am not a serious expert.

The thing of it is, flare and rocker are *EASY AND FAST* to build.
Many times, it's easier than square boats.

Square boats are square only in section, mind you, they still have rocker.
You seem to be setting aside excellent advice because of a misconception
about what's easy to build.

A Teal is quick and easy. It's not for 3 adults, though.

Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
david ryan <davi-@...> wrote:
snip
>
> Slap yer self together a teal! she rows well enough for me to get her
> out through 2 foot surf, and floats me, the wife and the big dog in
> the lake.
>
> David Ryan
> Minister of Information and Culture
> Crumbling Empire Productions
> (212) 247-0296
Appreciate the suggestion, but:
1. not square
2. too small (we are large, though I suspect it's almost close enuf)
Hoping for OPTIMIZED to deal with 400 lbs.

I'm thinking a version of PICCUP SQUARED that was actually square would
be nice.
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Lincoln Ross wrote:
> Mr. Michalak has a couple of boats like this but they are not square.
> Having attack of realism about building times, but want to sail and
> row before season gets too old. Would like to slap together at max
> speed out of lumberyard stuff (no ocuome), still be able to pick up
> and put on car, and still sail and row ok.

Having built boats by several designers, I can say that the Michalak boats
are probably as easy to build as any boats that actually work.

Now, Mr. Bolger's boats are usually better boats, overall, as he is a
simple genius at this business. Michalak's boats, however, work just
fine, and are often as easy as pie to put together.

In either case, quick-to-build boats can be had by either designer.
Just build!


Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
Windsprint is not square, but it goes together as fast as, due to the side
panels and molds being trapezoids and the bottom being laid out on the boat
after the sides are on. The only thing that requires any deftness is
cutting the bevels on the stem and stern post (and that just requires being
able to set your circular saw's angle accurately).

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
To:bolger@...<bolger@...>
Date: Monday, February 14, 2000 2:09 PM
Subject: [bolger] small square boat


>Anyone know a square boat smaller (lighter) than June Bug with same
>capacity? Would have considered Brick if it rowed ok. Mr. Michalak has
>a couple of boats like this but they are not square. Having attack of
>realism about building times, but want to sail and row before season
>gets too old. Would like to slap together at max speed out of
>lumberyard stuff (no ocuome), still be able to pick up and put on car,
>and still sail and row ok. Buoyancy tanks somewhere between a plus and
>a necessity. Payload to be 400+ lbs. Someday in future could make
>stitch and glue glassed ocuome light, large boat, but want to sail soon
>with nail and glue as simple as possible. ALso good for "what the !@#$
>is that?" points.
>
>Thanks
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
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>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
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>
>
>Anyone know a square boat smaller (lighter) than June Bug with same
>capacity? Would have considered Brick if it rowed ok. Mr. Michalak has
>a couple of boats like this but they are not square. Having attack of
>realism about building times, but want to sail and row before season
>gets too old. Would like to slap together at max speed out of
>lumberyard stuff (no ocuome), still be able to pick up and put on car,
>and still sail and row ok. Buoyancy tanks somewhere between a plus and
>a necessity. Payload to be 400+ lbs. Someday in future could make
>stitch and glue glassed ocuome light, large boat, but want to sail soon
>with nail and glue as simple as possible. ALso good for "what the !@#$
>is that?" points.

Slap yer self together a teal! she rows well enough for me to get her
out through 2 foot surf, and floats me, the wife and the big dog in
the lake.

David Ryan
Minister of Information and Culture
Crumbling Empire Productions
(212) 247-0296
richard <richar-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2693
> Michalak's Mayfly 12 seems to fit most of your requirements.
>
I knew about this one, and about his flat bottomed 11' punt (name?),
but these are not square. Hoping to get as simple as possible. I can
imagine if no bevels or funny angles things will be quicker and easier,
nor will I be tempted to make it too fancy. I have a Nymph project, but
I think I will stop it at the rowing stage as I think it would be
crowded for 2 when sailing and maybe would dip the rail too easily,
particularly when instructing s.o. how to sail. I could put a
centerboard in my Roar II project, but I think it might be a little
tender, plus the trunk would get in the way. I suppose I could come up
with a square version of some other design myself. Maybe there's some
other minimal approach I'm not thinking of? Maybe I can find a mold
somewhere?
Michalak's Mayfly 12 seems to fit most of your requirements.

Lincoln Ross wrote:

Anyone know a square boat smaller (lighter) than June Bug with same
capacity? Would have considered Brick if it rowed ok. Mr. Michalak has
a couple of boats like this but they are not square. Having attack of
realism about building times, but want to sail and row before season
gets too old. Would like to slap together at max speed out of
lumberyard stuff (no ocuome), still be able to pick up and put on car,
and still sail and row ok. Buoyancy tanks somewhere between a plus and
a necessity. Payload to be 400+ lbs. Someday in future could make
stitch and glue glassed ocuome light, large boat, but want to sail soon
with nail and glue as simple as possible. ALso good for "what the !@#$
is that?" points.

Thanks

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
Apply NOW!
http://click.egroups.com/1/975/5/_/3457/_/950555372/

-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
--http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1

Anyone know a square boat smaller (lighter) than June Bug with same
capacity? Would have considered Brick if it rowed ok. Mr. Michalak has
a couple of boats like this but they are not square. Having attack of
realism about building times, but want to sail and row before season
gets too old. Would like to slap together at max speed out of
lumberyard stuff (no ocuome), still be able to pick up and put on car,
and still sail and row ok. Buoyancy tanks somewhere between a plus and
a necessity. Payload to be 400+ lbs. Someday in future could make
stitch and glue glassed ocuome light, large boat, but want to sail soon
with nail and glue as simple as possible. ALso good for "what the !@#$
is that?" points.

Thanks