Re: [bolger] Re:Duckworks Charging for Subscriptions
As I read the last two MAIB's it became instantly apparent to me that
Bolger was writing them. I laid out several past articles and those two for
my 17 year old son to do a composition comparison. He's at the stage where
he can recognize good and bad writing, but he's not sure why it's good or
bad.
Bolger as a teaching tool for English, is there no end to the usefulness of
his work?
HJ
I don't think I could stomach a whole book full of Susanne's writing! :oP I
hope she has lots of other virtues, because her prose will never get her
past the pearly gates. It was a pleasant surprise to open up the last two
issues of MAIB and find that Phil himself had written the articles! :o)
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Bolger was writing them. I laid out several past articles and those two for
my 17 year old son to do a composition comparison. He's at the stage where
he can recognize good and bad writing, but he's not sure why it's good or
bad.
Bolger as a teaching tool for English, is there no end to the usefulness of
his work?
HJ
I don't think I could stomach a whole book full of Susanne's writing! :oP I
hope she has lots of other virtues, because her prose will never get her
past the pearly gates. It was a pleasant surprise to open up the last two
issues of MAIB and find that Phil himself had written the articles! :o)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/.
I don't think I could stomach a whole book full of Susanne's writing! :oP I
hope she has lots of other virtues, because her prose will never get her
past the pearly gates. It was a pleasant surprise to open up the last two
issues of MAIB and find that Phil himself had written the articles! :o)
hope she has lots of other virtues, because her prose will never get her
past the pearly gates. It was a pleasant surprise to open up the last two
issues of MAIB and find that Phil himself had written the articles! :o)
On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:04:29 -0000, Bruce Hallman wrote:
> ...
> For me, the *only* reason I eagerly wait
> for the next issue of MAIB is to read
> the latest PB&F article. I am curious
> about the history of why PCB chooses to
> submit his writing [almost exclusively]
> so regularly to MAIB. Ever since 1992
> in (nearly?) every issue.
>
> In the case of the Small Boat
> Journal and the earlier issues of MAIB,
> the articles were later collected into book(s).
>
> When is the next Bolger book due out!
>
> I could imagine plenty to include in the
> next book such as Tahiti, Illinois, Retriever,
> Topaz, Champlain, Bantam, Micro Navagator, Fiji,
> William D. Jochems, Insolent 60 and much more.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. <Groucho Marx>
MAIB doesn't pay anything to its contributors either, and I'm sure they
don't mind (I don't) that Bob Hicks makes a living off the magazine. But $25
a year for a Web based magazine seems a bit much to me for the market to
bear. If Chuck was asking for $10, or even $15 a year I don't think we'd be
hearing so many complaints, and he would probably end up doing better.
As someone who spends a lot of time publishing something on the Web for
little in return (it started out "for fun" but turned into a monster...) I
wish Chuck well in his attempt to get a little something back for his
efforts.
don't mind (I don't) that Bob Hicks makes a living off the magazine. But $25
a year for a Web based magazine seems a bit much to me for the market to
bear. If Chuck was asking for $10, or even $15 a year I don't think we'd be
hearing so many complaints, and he would probably end up doing better.
As someone who spends a lot of time publishing something on the Web for
little in return (it started out "for fun" but turned into a monster...) I
wish Chuck well in his attempt to get a little something back for his
efforts.
On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 18:22:37 +0100, you wrote:
> As a journalist myself and a good journalist's union member, I'm
> nevertheless happy to write for free to support something I enjoy and which
> is used by a limited market, so long as I have no reason to believe the
> proprieter is making a fortune while ripping off the contributors.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful
for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. <H. L. Mencken>
>He has written that he is "more or less imitating" the career ofBilly Atkin designed for Motor Boating and a few other mags put out
>William Atkins who published a design a month for years (in Rudder, I
>think it was).
by the same publisher.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
> I am curiousI don't have any inside info, but when Small Boat Journal turned its
> about the history of why PCB chooses to
> submit his writing [almost exclusively]
> so regularly to MAIB.
back on non-plastic boating, he didn't too many other places to go.
He has written that he is "more or less imitating" the career of
William Atkins who published a design a month for years (in Rudder, I
think it was). I think that he feels the need of an outlet in order
to expose his ideas to the ignoring public. That's a big handicap in
an almost phobically private man.
It works as advertising, up to a point. The circulation is not very
big, and the audience is mostly down scale. He loves the small, cheap
boats but the homebuilder requires a lot of follow-on time per dollar
of plan income.
Peter
> craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...> wrote:For me, the *only* reason I eagerly wait
> Many of us cheerfully send Bob
> his $30-odd for MAIB.
> no one gets paid for contributing to MAIB
for the next issue of MAIB is to read
the latest PB&F article. I am curious
about the history of why PCB chooses to
submit his writing [almost exclusively]
so regularly to MAIB. Ever since 1992
in (nearly?) every issue.
In the case of the Small Boat
Journal and the earlier issues of MAIB,
the articles were later collected into book(s).
When is the next Bolger book due out!
I could imagine plenty to include in the
next book such as Tahiti, Illinois, Retriever,
Topaz, Champlain, Bantam, Micro Navagator, Fiji,
William D. Jochems, Insolent 60 and much more.
>Short of MAIB, where can you find even a tiny fraction of DuckworksMany of us cheerfully send Bob his $30-odd for MAIB. Remember that no
>timely, informative and full colour boatbuilding specific articles?
one gets paid for contributing to MAIB - I know coz I've done it.
Sure, the quality of the writing is up and down, but if you don't
much like this issue, wait 2 weeks...
Chuck's got the el-moderno online thing going in MAIB fashion - MAIB
does indeed provide Bob Hicks (otherwise retired) with an income and
I don't see anyone lambasting him about that. Chuck is, as far as I
know, mainly seeking to keep the site costs out of the red.
There are only a few of us who are stupid enough to create web
content for plain free (oops ...)
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
pvanderwaart wrote:
But what if everyone adopts you scheme? Then Chuck'll be back in the same old jam.
Mark
>It's true that, "All is vanity."
> My own strategy will be to buy the subscription, and then plie Chuck
> with enough book reviews and columns to reduce the effective price a
> long way. I get a kick out of getting my views published and I like
> to help Chuck.
But what if everyone adopts you scheme? Then Chuck'll be back in the same old jam.
Mark
Craig,
For me, Duckworks is a place I check into once in a while to see
what's new, but I don't savor it like I do some other publications -
I find paper magazines a lot more approachable (it's hard to read
Duckworks in bed or in the waiting room at JiffyLube) - and I think
there are a lot of readers in my catagory. I sincerely hope Chuck
does well. In fact, it would be wonderful if he could make enough
money to turn it into a full-time career.
Incidently, Chuck layed out for me exaclty what it costs him to
publish Duckworks and it is a pretty expensive hobby. I intend to
support him with content, even if I don't decide to pay a full
subscription.
Kellan
For me, Duckworks is a place I check into once in a while to see
what's new, but I don't savor it like I do some other publications -
I find paper magazines a lot more approachable (it's hard to read
Duckworks in bed or in the waiting room at JiffyLube) - and I think
there are a lot of readers in my catagory. I sincerely hope Chuck
does well. In fact, it would be wonderful if he could make enough
money to turn it into a full-time career.
Incidently, Chuck layed out for me exaclty what it costs him to
publish Duckworks and it is a pretty expensive hobby. I intend to
support him with content, even if I don't decide to pay a full
subscription.
Kellan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...> wrote:
> >Short of MAIB, where can you find even a tiny fraction of
Duckworks
> >timely, informative and full colour boatbuilding specific
articles?
>
> Many of us cheerfully send Bob his $30-odd for MAIB. Remember that
no
> one gets paid for contributing to MAIB - I know coz I've done it.
> Sure, the quality of the writing is up and down, but if you don't
> much like this issue, wait 2 weeks...
>
> Chuck's got the el-moderno online thing going in MAIB fashion -
MAIB
> does indeed provide Bob Hicks (otherwise retired) with an income
and
> I don't see anyone lambasting him about that. Chuck is, as far as
I
> know, mainly seeking to keep the site costs out of the red.
>
> There are only a few of us who are stupid enough to create web
> content for plain free (oops ...)
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
> <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
> The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
> The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
> Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese
Junks,
> American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
> Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
> _________________________________
>
> -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
> -- Macintosh kinda guy
> Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
> _________________________________
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
Web content for free?! Who would do such a thing?!?
I get almost enough donations to pay the bills at www.chebacco.com
Almost...
I get almost enough donations to pay the bills at www.chebacco.com
Almost...
> There are only a few of us who are stupid enough to create web
> content for plain free (oops ...)
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
> <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
> The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
> The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
> Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
> American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
> Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
> _________________________________
>
> -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
> -- Macintosh kinda guy
> Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
> _________________________________
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>Short of MAIB, where can you find even a tiny fraction of DuckworksMany of us cheerfully send Bob his $30-odd for MAIB. Remember that no
>timely, informative and full colour boatbuilding specific articles?
one gets paid for contributing to MAIB - I know coz I've done it.
Sure, the quality of the writing is up and down, but if you don't
much like this issue, wait 2 weeks...
Chuck's got the el-moderno online thing going in MAIB fashion - MAIB
does indeed provide Bob Hicks (otherwise retired) with an income and
I don't see anyone lambasting him about that. Chuck is, as far as I
know, mainly seeking to keep the site costs out of the red.
There are only a few of us who are stupid enough to create web
content for plain free (oops ...)
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
The only constant in this life is change. I like the idea of getting
more content at a small fee. I took a look at all of the
subscriptions to rags I have and I spend over $200.00 a year already.
I read them all cover to cover and get thousands of dollars in
enjoyment from them.
The bottom line is how much enjoyment and skills can you get out of
something. If you don't enjoy the content then don't buy the product.
If your like myself and you cannot wait for each new thing that is
printed then the cost is small. The only thing that beats reading
about boats is sailing on a boat while you read about boats.
John
more content at a small fee. I took a look at all of the
subscriptions to rags I have and I spend over $200.00 a year already.
I read them all cover to cover and get thousands of dollars in
enjoyment from them.
The bottom line is how much enjoyment and skills can you get out of
something. If you don't enjoy the content then don't buy the product.
If your like myself and you cannot wait for each new thing that is
printed then the cost is small. The only thing that beats reading
about boats is sailing on a boat while you read about boats.
John
>
> Since I'm in the trade of web sites, I can say that it takes a
> lot to time, effort, and expense. The bandwidth alone for a
> busy site could easily hit several hundred a month. A year of
> Duckworks to me has a lot more entertainment value than say a
> movie and popcorn for two.
>
> Better to help him out and pay for our use than see Duckworks
> disappear into BYTE heaven like a lot of websites.
>
> I for one support the change.
>
> Jeff
> So I say that we should support Duckworks in our differentSince I'm in the trade of web sites, I can say that it takes a
> ways. I'll probably continue to find things to photograph
> and write about and as a result I can hope to continue to
> read it for free - but, really
>
lot to time, effort, and expense. The bandwidth alone for a
busy site could easily hit several hundred a month. A year of
Duckworks to me has a lot more entertainment value than say a
movie and popcorn for two.
Better to help him out and pay for our use than see Duckworks
disappear into BYTE heaven like a lot of websites.
I for one support the change.
Jeff
This may be rapidly approaching coffee_lounge material. But anyway...
Cyli ,
In print media ( not to mention broadcast television ), the giveaway model certainly is
successful. Cities all over the country have throwaway advertisers and more or less
countercultural news rags that are enormously profitable from their display advertising
and classifieds alone.
As noted re: Salon.com etc., this isn't working so well for everyone on the internet at
present.
Remember the details of Chuck's statement. He said he's not planning to take away anything
we already have. He's just saying _If you want MORE, why then you'll have to pay for it_.
Take a look at
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/designs/sandpeeps/sandpeeps.htm
This is the best set of drawing for this type of boat I've seen.
What Chuck has offered up so far has definitely been worth the money. Maybe he'll keep up
the value in the newest version.
Cheers,
Mark
Cyli wrote:
Cyli ,
In print media ( not to mention broadcast television ), the giveaway model certainly is
successful. Cities all over the country have throwaway advertisers and more or less
countercultural news rags that are enormously profitable from their display advertising
and classifieds alone.
As noted re: Salon.com etc., this isn't working so well for everyone on the internet at
present.
Remember the details of Chuck's statement. He said he's not planning to take away anything
we already have. He's just saying _If you want MORE, why then you'll have to pay for it_.
Take a look at
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/designs/sandpeeps/sandpeeps.htm
This is the best set of drawing for this type of boat I've seen.
What Chuck has offered up so far has definitely been worth the money. Maybe he'll keep up
the value in the newest version.
Cheers,
Mark
Cyli wrote:
>
> If Duckworks still has some free stuff on it, I'll probably still use
> it, even if not willing to pay the fee for the rest of it.I
3/30/2003 12:22:37 PM, Gavin Atkin <gmatkin@...> wrote:
content. And of course Microsoft considers it their "manifest destiny" to determine the web's future. Most of us resent
this concept if for no other reason than the fact that Microsoft is pushing for it.
And we all remember (those of us that are old enough) when cable TV was supposed to be worth paying for because
there were no commercials. How long did that last?
Twenty-five bucks won't even buy a nice dinner, but then folks who build funky plywood crate boats are not the sort who
would spend $25 for a plate of food either.
Doug
>That's probably it. Many of us remember Bill Gates saying that Microsoft's vision for the web is subscription based
>Or is the problem that many of us still feel everything on the web should
>be free?
content. And of course Microsoft considers it their "manifest destiny" to determine the web's future. Most of us resent
this concept if for no other reason than the fact that Microsoft is pushing for it.
And we all remember (those of us that are old enough) when cable TV was supposed to be worth paying for because
there were no commercials. How long did that last?
Twenty-five bucks won't even buy a nice dinner, but then folks who build funky plywood crate boats are not the sort who
would spend $25 for a plate of food either.
Doug
On 30 Mar 2003 at 18:22, Gavin Atkin wrote:
(snipped)
> Or is the problem that many of us still feel everything on the web should
> be free?
No, but once free, you use up a lot of goodwill if you start charging
for it. He has the store. I believe he sells some plans, though I'm
pretty sure some are free. Seems that's not enough. I sympathize.
Bandwidth costs.
It's the Norton Virus thing. At one time they used their free anti-
virus as a lure to get people to their site to look over their
profitable programs, like Disk Doctor. Then viruses (virii?) became
a big deal and suddenly they were charging for it. Lost me, not that
they cared.
If you're ever going to charge for something, let it be nagware or
very low priced from the start. Then no one's suprized and dismayed
when it starts to cost.
If Duckworks still has some free stuff on it, I'll probably still use
it, even if not willing to pay the fee for the rest of it. If he can
build up enough paying audience, I wish him well. It's been a great
Web site. If he can't, someone inspired by it may start up something
like it, only being more clear from word one that some of it will be
pay for view. Charging by the article might be a better way to go,
too. If I were designing a boat, I'll pay for those design articles.
No way I'd ever pay for the cute stories of the dock in Alaska, even
though I enjoy reading them. PayPal could work for him there. "Pay
$1.00 for this article at PayPal." Give a sample paragraph first. As
the only ones I read on there are stuff like the Alaska guy and the
(parphrase) "I built an Xxxxx boat and here are the pictures", he'll
not get anything from me either way.
Gavin Atkin wrote:
I fear he can't hope for very much more, but if by chance one day he
red muscle boats at Duckworks -just not Chuck's style. He's a more decent fellow than that.
Mark
I fear he can't hope for very much more, but if by chance one day he
> finds he's running a substantial commercial empire I feel sure his businessNo, I don't think we'll ever find bikini clad models draped across 1000 hp, candy apple
> practices won't be any worse than, say, Rupert Murdoch. ;-)
red muscle boats at Duckworks -just not Chuck's style. He's a more decent fellow than that.
Mark
As a journalist myself and a good journalist's union member, I'm
nevertheless happy to write for free to support something I enjoy and which
is used by a limited market, so long as I have no reason to believe the
proprieter is making a fortune while ripping off the contributors.
But Duckworks is not a vehicle for profiteering of any kind - the evidence
is that Duckworks is frankly unlikely to make a fortune for anyone. It's
earning potential is strictly limited and I think that in making his move,
Chuck's best hope is that Duckworks keeps its head above water and pays his
bills. I fear he can't hope for very much more, but if by chance one day he
finds he's running a substantial commercial empire I feel sure his business
practices won't be any worse than, say, Rupert Murdoch. ;-)
So I say that we should support Duckworks in our different ways. I'll
probably continue to find things to photograph and write about and as a
result I can hope to continue to read it for free - but, really
folks, unless you're grindingly poor the new Duckworks is not going to be
very expensive compared with the cost of many of life's other little luxuries.
Or is the problem that many of us still feel everything on the web should
be free?
Gavin Atkin
nevertheless happy to write for free to support something I enjoy and which
is used by a limited market, so long as I have no reason to believe the
proprieter is making a fortune while ripping off the contributors.
But Duckworks is not a vehicle for profiteering of any kind - the evidence
is that Duckworks is frankly unlikely to make a fortune for anyone. It's
earning potential is strictly limited and I think that in making his move,
Chuck's best hope is that Duckworks keeps its head above water and pays his
bills. I fear he can't hope for very much more, but if by chance one day he
finds he's running a substantial commercial empire I feel sure his business
practices won't be any worse than, say, Rupert Murdoch. ;-)
So I say that we should support Duckworks in our different ways. I'll
probably continue to find things to photograph and write about and as a
result I can hope to continue to read it for free - but, really
folks, unless you're grindingly poor the new Duckworks is not going to be
very expensive compared with the cost of many of life's other little luxuries.
Or is the problem that many of us still feel everything on the web should
be free?
Gavin Atkin
Those who think the info is worth it, will spend the money! Others won't. It's like the guy who thinks his free time is worth the same time working. If you make $50 an hour at work, how much will your home made boat cost? $100 for materials and $3000 in labor ! Think about. Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: s_paskey
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 7:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] Was:Re: help! Now:Duckworks Charging for Subscriptions
I wholeheartedly disagree. The average Duckworks article does not
look to me like a great deal of work. (I write legal briefs for a
living.) And the articles are not "professionally" written -- most
could stand a complete overhaul by a good editor.
Your wife's situation is a whole different ball of wax on several
scores. She's being paid for professional quality writing, by people
who publish for a market that can justify $250 bucks for 800-1200
words. You want to make $250? Write for that market, but you won't
get to write about boats. You want to write about boats? The market
isn't there. Go ahead -- find someone who'll pay $250 for a
Duckworks article. I won't hold my breath. In fact, $50 would be
VERY generous for most of the stuff that shows up on Duckworks.
Incidentally, if only a fool writes for free, the web is inhabited
largely by fools (as is this group.) Long live fooldom!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bluesky_whitecaps" <micwal_va@h...>
wrote:
> $50 is a bit low for the amount of words and effort in the typical
> Duckworks article. My wife is a freelance writer and typically
gets upwards of $250
for about 800-1200 words. The better articles there are worth a bit
more. Someone earlier mentioned copyright laws. Typically the
payment is for first North American publication rights. Any
additional printings require the author's permission and likely an
additional payment.
>
> I think it was Ben Franklin that said, "Only a fool writes for
free".
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have to admit my eyebrows were raised a bit with Chuck's plan to charge
for subscriptions. The proposed price seems a bit high for what it is now,
so we'll have to see what the future holds for the pay for play version.
There have been several high profile flops in the internet magazine biz,
e.g. Salon.com which show that making the transition to a fee-based service
is not easily done.
I've been supportive of contributing material and designs to the cooperative
version of Duckworks, but I'm still trying to decide about my involvement as
a contributor in the future.
for subscriptions. The proposed price seems a bit high for what it is now,
so we'll have to see what the future holds for the pay for play version.
There have been several high profile flops in the internet magazine biz,
e.g. Salon.com which show that making the transition to a fee-based service
is not easily done.
I've been supportive of contributing material and designs to the cooperative
version of Duckworks, but I'm still trying to decide about my involvement as
a contributor in the future.
You can write about boats and get those kinds of bucks. You just don't write
for the web or Duckworks or MAIB, etc., and you don't write for free.
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Member, Boating Writers International
Published in Small Craft Advisor, SAIL,
Living Aboard, Boatbuilder, Good Old
Boat, Blue Water Sailing, Nor'easter
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
www.smallcraftadvisor.com
www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
for the web or Duckworks or MAIB, etc., and you don't write for free.
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Member, Boating Writers International
Published in Small Craft Advisor, SAIL,
Living Aboard, Boatbuilder, Good Old
Boat, Blue Water Sailing, Nor'easter
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
www.smallcraftadvisor.com
www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "s_paskey" <s_paskey@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] Was:Re: help! Now:Duckworks Charging for Subscriptions
> I wholeheartedly disagree. The average Duckworks article does not
> look to me like a great deal of work. (I write legal briefs for a
> living.) And the articles are not "professionally" written -- most
> could stand a complete overhaul by a good editor.
>
> Your wife's situation is a whole different ball of wax on several
> scores. She's being paid for professional quality writing, by people
> who publish for a market that can justify $250 bucks for 800-1200
> words. You want to make $250? Write for that market, but you won't
> get to write about boats. You want to write about boats? The market
> isn't there. Go ahead -- find someone who'll pay $250 for a
> Duckworks article. I won't hold my breath. In fact, $50 would be
> VERY generous for most of the stuff that shows up on Duckworks.
>
> Incidentally, if only a fool writes for free, the web is inhabited
> largely by fools (as is this group.) Long live fooldom!
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bluesky_whitecaps" <micwal_va@h...>
> wrote:
> > $50 is a bit low for the amount of words and effort in the typical
> > Duckworks article. My wife is a freelance writer and typically
> gets upwards of $250
> for about 800-1200 words. The better articles there are worth a bit
> more. Someone earlier mentioned copyright laws. Typically the
> payment is for first North American publication rights. Any
> additional printings require the author's permission and likely an
> additional payment.
> >
> > I think it was Ben Franklin that said, "Only a fool writes for
> free".
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
I wholeheartedly disagree. The average Duckworks article does not
look to me like a great deal of work. (I write legal briefs for a
living.) And the articles are not "professionally" written -- most
could stand a complete overhaul by a good editor.
Your wife's situation is a whole different ball of wax on several
scores. She's being paid for professional quality writing, by people
who publish for a market that can justify $250 bucks for 800-1200
words. You want to make $250? Write for that market, but you won't
get to write about boats. You want to write about boats? The market
isn't there. Go ahead -- find someone who'll pay $250 for a
Duckworks article. I won't hold my breath. In fact, $50 would be
VERY generous for most of the stuff that shows up on Duckworks.
Incidentally, if only a fool writes for free, the web is inhabited
largely by fools (as is this group.) Long live fooldom!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bluesky_whitecaps" <micwal_va@h...>
wrote:
for about 800-1200 words. The better articles there are worth a bit
more. Someone earlier mentioned copyright laws. Typically the
payment is for first North American publication rights. Any
additional printings require the author's permission and likely an
additional payment.
look to me like a great deal of work. (I write legal briefs for a
living.) And the articles are not "professionally" written -- most
could stand a complete overhaul by a good editor.
Your wife's situation is a whole different ball of wax on several
scores. She's being paid for professional quality writing, by people
who publish for a market that can justify $250 bucks for 800-1200
words. You want to make $250? Write for that market, but you won't
get to write about boats. You want to write about boats? The market
isn't there. Go ahead -- find someone who'll pay $250 for a
Duckworks article. I won't hold my breath. In fact, $50 would be
VERY generous for most of the stuff that shows up on Duckworks.
Incidentally, if only a fool writes for free, the web is inhabited
largely by fools (as is this group.) Long live fooldom!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bluesky_whitecaps" <micwal_va@h...>
wrote:
> $50 is a bit low for the amount of words and effort in the typicalgets upwards of $250
> Duckworks article. My wife is a freelance writer and typically
for about 800-1200 words. The better articles there are worth a bit
more. Someone earlier mentioned copyright laws. Typically the
payment is for first North American publication rights. Any
additional printings require the author's permission and likely an
additional payment.
>free".
> I think it was Ben Franklin that said, "Only a fool writes for
I am an internet friend of the Duckman and a several-time contributor
to Duckworks. I quite understand that the Duckworks operation has
grown past the free time project stage into the we-can't-do-this-
unless-it-pays stage. I was a little surprised that he put the price
so high, but it's probably better to start at the rate required for
long term viability (whatever that is) than to start at something
nominial and try to inch it up. Folks don't react well to that.
It took MAIB several years to work up to its mature circulation of
less than 5000. Many of these will be choosing between Duckworks and
MAIB to get their $25 boating fix. I imagine most will stick with
MAIB in the short term. I don't know how the cost of electronic
publishing compares to snail-mail publishing, but it's not free.
Duckworks would be a pretty demanding hobby at $500/month of out-of-
pocket expenses.
I find it a little difficult to decide whether the amount of
interesting material on Duckworks is more or less than that from
MAIB. I think Chuck has a little way to go before he can claim to
match Robb White and Phil Bolger. John Welsford's articles have been
in MAIB too, although he should have a higher allegience to Duckworks.
About payment for articles: The comparison to an article submitted by
a professional writer to a conventional magazine is not apt. Chuck
will be giving credit for amateur-written articles that would never
see the light of day in Sailing.
Peter
to Duckworks. I quite understand that the Duckworks operation has
grown past the free time project stage into the we-can't-do-this-
unless-it-pays stage. I was a little surprised that he put the price
so high, but it's probably better to start at the rate required for
long term viability (whatever that is) than to start at something
nominial and try to inch it up. Folks don't react well to that.
It took MAIB several years to work up to its mature circulation of
less than 5000. Many of these will be choosing between Duckworks and
MAIB to get their $25 boating fix. I imagine most will stick with
MAIB in the short term. I don't know how the cost of electronic
publishing compares to snail-mail publishing, but it's not free.
Duckworks would be a pretty demanding hobby at $500/month of out-of-
pocket expenses.
I find it a little difficult to decide whether the amount of
interesting material on Duckworks is more or less than that from
MAIB. I think Chuck has a little way to go before he can claim to
match Robb White and Phil Bolger. John Welsford's articles have been
in MAIB too, although he should have a higher allegience to Duckworks.
About payment for articles: The comparison to an article submitted by
a professional writer to a conventional magazine is not apt. Chuck
will be giving credit for amateur-written articles that would never
see the light of day in Sailing.
Peter
$50 is a bit low for the amount of words and effort in the typical
Duckworks article.
My wife is a freelance writer and typically gets upwards of $250 for
about 800-1200 words. The better articles there are worth a bit more.
Someone earlier mentioned copyright laws. Typically the payment is
for first North American publication rights. Any additional
printings require the author's permission and likely an additional
payment.
I think it was Ben Franklin that said, "Only a fool writes for free".
Duckworks article.
My wife is a freelance writer and typically gets upwards of $250 for
about 800-1200 words. The better articles there are worth a bit more.
Someone earlier mentioned copyright laws. Typically the payment is
for first North American publication rights. Any additional
printings require the author's permission and likely an additional
payment.
I think it was Ben Franklin that said, "Only a fool writes for free".
3/28/2003 7:33:31 PM, "dagon_gsl" <dagon_gsl@...> wrote:
printing/mailing cost. I anticipate some re-thinking will occur.
Doug
>I'm disappointed about Chuck's decision to start charging a$25 does seem a little steep in view of the fact that the biggest expense in running a magazine such as MAIB is the
>subscription fee. I can see why he'd doing it; he has offered a
>great service for a long time free of charge, but going from free to
>$25/year is quite a jump - roughly the same as a subscription to
>MAIB or Woodenboat.
>
printing/mailing cost. I anticipate some re-thinking will occur.
Doug
I'm disappointed about Chuck's decision to start charging a
subscription fee. I can see why he'd doing it; he has offered a
great service for a long time free of charge, but going from free to
$25/year is quite a jump - roughly the same as a subscription to
MAIB or Woodenboat. If he had asked for a few dollars I would
probably do it. Or a $25 lifetime membership. He plans to pay his
contributors in free subscription credit, but I think he needs to be
more generous to the life blood of his magazine - his contributors.
On his plan an article is worth 8 months subscription. That's $16 to
you and me. Now that it's a commercial venture, how about valuing an
article at, say $50? That's two years of subscription. I think a
good article should keep you going for that long. Ask me to pay or
contribute, please. But not both. Otherwise I'm afraid some people
would be more likely to make a minimum offering every time their
subscription is wearing thin, rather than focusing on doing a really
thorough piece of work.
I have contributed in the past and was planning to submit another
artical again soon. I won't sign up for the price he's asking. I
won't make any claims on the article I already gave him -I'm honored
that he asked me to do it- and when I do contribute again I won't
ask for anything in return, only that he place my article, no
payment necessary, in the free portion of his magazine.
I have a lot of admiration for Chuck and what he's done and I hope
this works out well for him.
Kellan
subscription fee. I can see why he'd doing it; he has offered a
great service for a long time free of charge, but going from free to
$25/year is quite a jump - roughly the same as a subscription to
MAIB or Woodenboat. If he had asked for a few dollars I would
probably do it. Or a $25 lifetime membership. He plans to pay his
contributors in free subscription credit, but I think he needs to be
more generous to the life blood of his magazine - his contributors.
On his plan an article is worth 8 months subscription. That's $16 to
you and me. Now that it's a commercial venture, how about valuing an
article at, say $50? That's two years of subscription. I think a
good article should keep you going for that long. Ask me to pay or
contribute, please. But not both. Otherwise I'm afraid some people
would be more likely to make a minimum offering every time their
subscription is wearing thin, rather than focusing on doing a really
thorough piece of work.
I have contributed in the past and was planning to submit another
artical again soon. I won't sign up for the price he's asking. I
won't make any claims on the article I already gave him -I'm honored
that he asked me to do it- and when I do contribute again I won't
ask for anything in return, only that he place my article, no
payment necessary, in the free portion of his magazine.
I have a lot of admiration for Chuck and what he's done and I hope
this works out well for him.
Kellan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, AARON PRYOR <thnudrstrk@y...> wrote:
>
> I would say that this subscription would make it commercial, and
if a prior contributer wanted to could have there items removed, or
be sued for distributing un authorized material if asked not to
distribute it. no it would not be a co-operative if the
contributers weren't earning a "Royality. I say that this could
mark the beginning of the end for Duckworks. Just a thought.
> Aaron
> dbaldnz <oink@p...> wrote:Duckworks say that if you contribute
articles, you earn free
> subscription.
> Would that make it a co-operative?
> Better get building and writing Pete!
> DonB
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Staehling" <staehpj1@y...>
> wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...>
> > wrote:
> > > Duckworks doesn't charge for content
> >
> > Apparently that is about to change. Check out:
> >http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/subscribe.htm
> >
> > They say:
> > In a few weeks we will begin charging for subscriptions to
> > Duckworks...
> >
> > Personally I have to wonder if they are possibly on shakey
ground
> > since most of their contributers did so based on the
understanding
> > that they (Duck Works) were non-commercial.
> >
> > I don't know what kind of agreement they made with their
> > contributers, but suspect I might be ticked off if I was one of
> their
> > contributers.
> >
> > It isn't entirely clear (to me) what exactly they will be
charging
> > for and what will still be available for free.
> >
> > Pete
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
<snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would say that this subscription would make it commercial, and if a prior contributer wanted to could have there items removed, or be sued for distributing un authorized material if asked not to distribute it. no it would not be a co-operative if the contributers weren't earning a "Royality. I say that this could mark the beginning of the end for Duckworks. Just a thought.
Aaron
dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote:Duckworks say that if you contribute articles, you earn free
subscription.
Would that make it a co-operative?
Better get building and writing Pete!
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Staehling" <staehpj1@y...>
wrote:
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Aaron
dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote:Duckworks say that if you contribute articles, you earn free
subscription.
Would that make it a co-operative?
Better get building and writing Pete!
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Staehling" <staehpj1@y...>
wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...>their
> wrote:
> > Duckworks doesn't charge for content
>
> Apparently that is about to change. Check out:
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/subscribe.htm
>
> They say:
> In a few weeks we will begin charging for subscriptions to
> Duckworks...
>
> Personally I have to wonder if they are possibly on shakey ground
> since most of their contributers did so based on the understanding
> that they (Duck Works) were non-commercial.
>
> I don't know what kind of agreement they made with their
> contributers, but suspect I might be ticked off if I was one of
> contributers.Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> It isn't entirely clear (to me) what exactly they will be charging
> for and what will still be available for free.
>
> Pete
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mea culpa! I know they are different, but I always think Duckworks
is in Australia. That is in part the hazard of internet perceptions.
There seems to be a rash of this costing out stuff happening on the
net. Is the economics of the net starting to catch up with us?
The one problem I have about all this is that I am all over the
place, and can't begin to make contributions to all the places I
occasionaly attend.
I buy tons of magazines, but currently I subscribe to none, except
one that comes with a membership. I buy all the issues of some, but
not many.
is in Australia. That is in part the hazard of internet perceptions.
There seems to be a rash of this costing out stuff happening on the
net. Is the economics of the net starting to catch up with us?
The one problem I have about all this is that I am all over the
place, and can't begin to make contributions to all the places I
occasionaly attend.
I buy tons of magazines, but currently I subscribe to none, except
one that comes with a membership. I buy all the issues of some, but
not many.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...>
wrote:
contributers unless they OK'ed it.
I hope that this change turns out to be a good thing, but I am
skeptical until I see how it goes. I have seen in a different forum
where the owner started charging and the contributers choked up. A
lot depends on how it is handled. I wish Duckworks the best and hope
it goes well.
Pete
wrote:
> When I visited Chuck in Texas two weeks ago he told me that all ofI am glad to hear that. To do otherwise would seem unfair to the
> Duckworks that was free so far would remain so,
contributers unless they OK'ed it.
I hope that this change turns out to be a good thing, but I am
skeptical until I see how it goes. I have seen in a different forum
where the owner started charging and the contributers choked up. A
lot depends on how it is handled. I wish Duckworks the best and hope
it goes well.
Pete
When I visited Chuck in Texas two weeks ago he told me that all of
Duckworks that was free so far would remain so, and that the paid for
section would include only new and better stuff. It's hard to believe
that it could get any better.
I've been amazed at the depth and breadth of his superb free site,
and that he could do it all "pro bono" for so long. Everyone has a
right to make a living, and from what I've seen, they're slamming 4 -
6 HOURS a day into keeping their site's content outstanding and
constantly changing. I'm standing at the froint of the line to sign
on and be awed further ....
If Chuck or anyone elsed published scans or cartoons of previously
published Bolger stuff on a free list with a footer indicating how to
contact PB&F for more info or buildable plans, that would be "fair
use", perhaps even "scholarly use" as someone has to do it. His work
is too broad to be ignored, yet it's hard to keep up with it all, and
easy to overlook great designs when considering another boat, simply
because of ignorance of half of his work. I'd love to see a database
with photos, text and cartoons.
I'm afraid Phil and others may have Duckworks Magazone confused with
Duckflats Boats (or similar, it confusing to me also) in Australia,
who're busily modifying Phils Wyoming and Tennesee designs
comercially, as far as I know, without either permission or fees
being paid.
Bruce Hector
Duckworks that was free so far would remain so, and that the paid for
section would include only new and better stuff. It's hard to believe
that it could get any better.
I've been amazed at the depth and breadth of his superb free site,
and that he could do it all "pro bono" for so long. Everyone has a
right to make a living, and from what I've seen, they're slamming 4 -
6 HOURS a day into keeping their site's content outstanding and
constantly changing. I'm standing at the froint of the line to sign
on and be awed further ....
If Chuck or anyone elsed published scans or cartoons of previously
published Bolger stuff on a free list with a footer indicating how to
contact PB&F for more info or buildable plans, that would be "fair
use", perhaps even "scholarly use" as someone has to do it. His work
is too broad to be ignored, yet it's hard to keep up with it all, and
easy to overlook great designs when considering another boat, simply
because of ignorance of half of his work. I'd love to see a database
with photos, text and cartoons.
I'm afraid Phil and others may have Duckworks Magazone confused with
Duckflats Boats (or similar, it confusing to me also) in Australia,
who're busily modifying Phils Wyoming and Tennesee designs
comercially, as far as I know, without either permission or fees
being paid.
Bruce Hector
Duckworks say that if you contribute articles, you earn free
subscription.
Would that make it a co-operative?
Better get building and writing Pete!
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Staehling" <staehpj1@y...>
wrote:
subscription.
Would that make it a co-operative?
Better get building and writing Pete!
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Staehling" <staehpj1@y...>
wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...>their
> wrote:
> > Duckworks doesn't charge for content
>
> Apparently that is about to change. Check out:
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/subscribe.htm
>
> They say:
> In a few weeks we will begin charging for subscriptions to
> Duckworks...
>
> Personally I have to wonder if they are possibly on shakey ground
> since most of their contributers did so based on the understanding
> that they (Duck Works) were non-commercial.
>
> I don't know what kind of agreement they made with their
> contributers, but suspect I might be ticked off if I was one of
> contributers.
>
> It isn't entirely clear (to me) what exactly they will be charging
> for and what will still be available for free.
>
> Pete
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...>
wrote:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/subscribe.htm
They say:
In a few weeks we will begin charging for subscriptions to
Duckworks...
Personally I have to wonder if they are possibly on shakey ground
since most of their contributers did so based on the understanding
that they (Duck Works) were non-commercial.
I don't know what kind of agreement they made with their
contributers, but suspect I might be ticked off if I was one of their
contributers.
It isn't entirely clear (to me) what exactly they will be charging
for and what will still be available for free.
Pete
wrote:
> Duckworks doesn't charge for contentApparently that is about to change. Check out:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/subscribe.htm
They say:
In a few weeks we will begin charging for subscriptions to
Duckworks...
Personally I have to wonder if they are possibly on shakey ground
since most of their contributers did so based on the understanding
that they (Duck Works) were non-commercial.
I don't know what kind of agreement they made with their
contributers, but suspect I might be ticked off if I was one of their
contributers.
It isn't entirely clear (to me) what exactly they will be charging
for and what will still be available for free.
Pete
Now, that is an interesting question. Duckworks doesn't charge for content, so might be considered "non-commercial", even if he does
sell screws and other stuff on the side...
sell screws and other stuff on the side...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 9:34 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: help!
> --- In "Chuck Leinweber" wrote:
>
> > "...not available for commercial exploitation."
>
> Is Duckworks Magazine commercial?
>
> Copyright law does make allowances for "fair use"
> and one of the criteria to determine what is 'fair'
> is whether the 'use' is commerical, which bears a
> greater restraint than non-commercial 'use',
> say for instance for scholarly 'use'.
>
> Also, I think that short excerpts published in
> commercial publications, say for instance like
> 'book reviews' are considered to be 'fair use'.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--- In "Chuck Leinweber" wrote:
Copyright law does make allowances for "fair use"
and one of the criteria to determine what is 'fair'
is whether the 'use' is commerical, which bears a
greater restraint than non-commercial 'use',
say for instance for scholarly 'use'.
Also, I think that short excerpts published in
commercial publications, say for instance like
'book reviews' are considered to be 'fair use'.
> "...not available for commercial exploitation."Is Duckworks Magazine commercial?
Copyright law does make allowances for "fair use"
and one of the criteria to determine what is 'fair'
is whether the 'use' is commerical, which bears a
greater restraint than non-commercial 'use',
say for instance for scholarly 'use'.
Also, I think that short excerpts published in
commercial publications, say for instance like
'book reviews' are considered to be 'fair use'.
I ran into the same thing when I asked to sell Chebacco plans at www.chebacco.com
I guess if you get burned once, then everyone else is a crook too.
I guess if you get burned once, then everyone else is a crook too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:25 PM
Subject: [bolger] help!
> I am currently in the middle of discussions with Mr. Bolger in which I am trying to get his permission to post a few of his old
cartoons in Duckworks. He seems to think that I am some kind of multinational corporation bent on raping the land and cheating him
out of something. His words were "our essays are copyrighted material not available for commercial exploitation."
>
> I have met a number of the Bolgeristas on this list, and communicated with many others over the years. Indeed, I count myself as
one (having built a Tennessee). I think you can vouch for my character. Anyway, I'd like to encourage some of you who would be
interested in seeing more Bolger material on the web to fax or write PCB&F and let them know how you feel.
>
> Chuck Leinweber
> Duckworks
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
I wouldn't mention the Tennessee part. He seems unhappy with the
Tennessee developments in OZ. Not that this has anything to do with
you personaly, but in general.
Tennessee developments in OZ. Not that this has anything to do with
you personaly, but in general.
I am currently in the middle of discussions with Mr. Bolger in which I am trying to get his permission to post a few of his old cartoons in Duckworks. He seems to think that I am some kind of multinational corporation bent on raping the land and cheating him out of something. His words were "our essays are copyrighted material not available for commercial exploitation."
I have met a number of the Bolgeristas on this list, and communicated with many others over the years. Indeed, I count myself as one (having built a Tennessee). I think you can vouch for my character. Anyway, I'd like to encourage some of you who would be interested in seeing more Bolger material on the web to fax or write PCB&F and let them know how you feel.
Chuck Leinweber
Duckworks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have met a number of the Bolgeristas on this list, and communicated with many others over the years. Indeed, I count myself as one (having built a Tennessee). I think you can vouch for my character. Anyway, I'd like to encourage some of you who would be interested in seeing more Bolger material on the web to fax or write PCB&F and let them know how you feel.
Chuck Leinweber
Duckworks
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]