Re: Jochem's bottom

could you make the bottom of the boat with 1 1/2" cypress, it would
soak up water and you would have water ballest. j--- In
bolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@y...>
wrote:
> Thanks that is interesting. That sounds prety horendous from a
flow
> perspective. It also sounds expensive and over reliant on 5200.
> That stuff is magic, but not imortal. Once it goes, I think it is
a
> a problem. There are holes through ply, where there is a sharp
> corner, between the outside which is presumably glass/ply and the
ply
> inside, which is 5200 coated, maybe over epoxy. That is the
problem
> with this approach. The film thickness at that point, which is
almost
> certain to be wet, is very poor. With the hardware bonding, the
> sockets are continuous glass epoxy. The nearest wood might be an
> 1/8" back.
>
> The expansion issue is interesting, but if that is the problem, why
> did they insist one external ballast and 75 holes? And they still
> have 48" runs in certain directions.
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
> > Bolger's scheme to attach external steel plate ballast to the
> Jochems
> > schooner is to finish the bottom "as you would without the steel,
> > covering the wood in glass and epoxy...." The plate is cut into
15
> > sections, all 3/8" thick, most less than 48" in the longest
> dimension
> > to keep expansion below the 1 mm range, the heaviest section is
> 122
> > lbs. To attach the plates, Bolger says five countersunk holes in
> each
> > steel plate (4 in several of the smaller pieces) for flathead
3/8"
> > bolts, with nut and big washer inside over the oversized holes in
> the 1"
> > thick plywood with 5200 filling the gap around each bolt, as
well
> as a
> > single bead of 5200 along the perimeter of each plate and
> as "grout" in
> > the 1/4" gap between the plates. His big worry is expansion of
the
> > plates as the original Jochems was to trailer from below freezing
> temps
> > to the 130 degree western deserts in less than one day.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > proaconstrictor wrote:
> >
> > > The external steel hasn't swept me away, but if the main
concern
> is
> > > water proofing the thing, then I think hardware bonding should
> work.
> > > Under that system, what you do is ensure each screw is in an
> > > oversized socket of glue, So 1/4" bolts might be in 1/2" sockets
> > > filled with epoxy. The Gougeons have some rules of thunb on
the
> size
> > > of the sockets, which may have to be engineered, but if the main
> > > purpose is waterproofness, or improving bolts or screws Where
> basic
> > > sizes and numbers have already been decided) it isn't very
> technical.
> > > Prefereably the sockets go right through the ply, and are
capped
> by
> > > the external glass. Exactly how you do that will depend on
what
> your
> > > building process is.
> > >
> > > For instance imagine a full size crap ply template of the metal
> > > ballast, with all holes drilled. These could then be
transfered
> to
> > > the ply bottom, and be drilled. Then you could frame them in
rows
> > > inside, and fill those rows with epoxy putty (if that is too
much
> > > putty, you could fill all the areas with lumber, just have
> oversized
> > > holes where the bolts will fall. Flip the boat glass right
over
> the
> > > holes, flip it again, and pour epoxy into all the holes, flip it
> > > again and install plates with bonded bolts. Stronger, and there
> > > isn't any wood to bolt contact for rot to start. I assume the
> bottom
> > > of the boat would be a shallow scow during early building, as
on
> the
> > > LMII, so that all this flipping wouldn't be too tiresome. If
you
> > > don't like the thought of this, consider how horrid it will be
if
> > > your holes leak, and you have to flip the whole boat, with
pretty
> low
> > > hopes of it ever being properly repaired.
> > >
> > > The idea of hardware bonding is not nuts are used, the glue
alone
> > > seals the holes. However, you can include nuts, and use the
epoxy
> > > buffer just to issolate the ballast/bolts from the wood.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >
>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/M=249982.3083889.4452939.1728375/D=egroupweb/
> S=1705065791:HM/A=1524963/R=0/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-
> bin/autoredir?camp=556&llineid=3083889&prop=egroupweb&pos=HM>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred'
> posts
> > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
> <snip> away
> > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA,
> > > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service
> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks that is interesting. That sounds prety horendous from a flow
perspective. It also sounds expensive and over reliant on 5200.
That stuff is magic, but not imortal. Once it goes, I think it is a
a problem. There are holes through ply, where there is a sharp
corner, between the outside which is presumably glass/ply and the ply
inside, which is 5200 coated, maybe over epoxy. That is the problem
with this approach. The film thickness at that point, which is almost
certain to be wet, is very poor. With the hardware bonding, the
sockets are continuous glass epoxy. The nearest wood might be an
1/8" back.

The expansion issue is interesting, but if that is the problem, why
did they insist one external ballast and 75 holes? And they still
have 48" runs in certain directions.


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
> Bolger's scheme to attach external steel plate ballast to the
Jochems
> schooner is to finish the bottom "as you would without the steel,
> covering the wood in glass and epoxy...." The plate is cut into 15
> sections, all 3/8" thick, most less than 48" in the longest
dimension
> to keep expansion below the 1 mm range, the heaviest section is
122
> lbs. To attach the plates, Bolger says five countersunk holes in
each
> steel plate (4 in several of the smaller pieces) for flathead 3/8"
> bolts, with nut and big washer inside over the oversized holes in
the 1"
> thick plywood with 5200 filling the gap around each bolt, as well
as a
> single bead of 5200 along the perimeter of each plate and
as "grout" in
> the 1/4" gap between the plates. His big worry is expansion of the
> plates as the original Jochems was to trailer from below freezing
temps
> to the 130 degree western deserts in less than one day.
>
>
>
>
> proaconstrictor wrote:
>
> > The external steel hasn't swept me away, but if the main concern
is
> > water proofing the thing, then I think hardware bonding should
work.
> > Under that system, what you do is ensure each screw is in an
> > oversized socket of glue, So 1/4" bolts might be in 1/2" sockets
> > filled with epoxy. The Gougeons have some rules of thunb on the
size
> > of the sockets, which may have to be engineered, but if the main
> > purpose is waterproofness, or improving bolts or screws Where
basic
> > sizes and numbers have already been decided) it isn't very
technical.
> > Prefereably the sockets go right through the ply, and are capped
by
> > the external glass. Exactly how you do that will depend on what
your
> > building process is.
> >
> > For instance imagine a full size crap ply template of the metal
> > ballast, with all holes drilled. These could then be transfered
to
> > the ply bottom, and be drilled. Then you could frame them in rows
> > inside, and fill those rows with epoxy putty (if that is too much
> > putty, you could fill all the areas with lumber, just have
oversized
> > holes where the bolts will fall. Flip the boat glass right over
the
> > holes, flip it again, and pour epoxy into all the holes, flip it
> > again and install plates with bonded bolts. Stronger, and there
> > isn't any wood to bolt contact for rot to start. I assume the
bottom
> > of the boat would be a shallow scow during early building, as on
the
> > LMII, so that all this flipping wouldn't be too tiresome. If you
> > don't like the thought of this, consider how horrid it will be if
> > your holes leak, and you have to flip the whole boat, with pretty
low
> > hopes of it ever being properly repaired.
> >
> > The idea of hardware bonding is not nuts are used, the glue alone
> > seals the holes. However, you can include nuts, and use the epoxy
> > buffer just to issolate the ballast/bolts from the wood.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/M=249982.3083889.4452939.1728375/D=egroupweb/
S=1705065791:HM/A=1524963/R=0/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-
bin/autoredir?camp=556&llineid=3083889&prop=egroupweb&pos=HM>
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and
<snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
> Bolger's scheme to attach external steel plate ballast to the
Jochems
> schooner is to finish the bottom "as you would without the steel,
> covering the wood in glass and epoxy...." The plate is cut into 15
> sections, all 3/8" thick, most less than 48" in the longest
dimension
> to keep expansion below the 1 mm range, the heaviest section is
122
> lbs. To attach the plates, Bolger says five countersunk holes in
each
> steel plate (4 in several of the smaller pieces) for flathead 3/8"
> bolts, with nut and big washer inside over the oversized holes in
the 1"
> thick plywood with 5200 filling the gap around each bolt, as well
as a
> single bead of 5200 along the perimeter of each plate and
as "grout" in
> the 1/4" gap between the plates. His big worry is expansion of the
> plates as the original Jochems was to trailer from below freezing
temps
> to the 130 degree western deserts in less than one day.
>

1. Interesting. Garage doors sometimes have a beam across the opening
that looks like a 1/4" (?) steel plate bolted between two 2x12's, but
I suppose there is clearance in the bolt holes that can allow for
expansion of steel vs. wood.

Does the proposed cure do any good? (Segment the steel with 5200
between the 1/4" gaps). Isn't the 5200 akin to stone when it sets up?
i.e., where does the steel expand to when it expands????

Would it be better to use a foam rubber in the joint???

2. Suppose you wanted a hollow steel keel to allow for keel cooling
of engine water. Any way to do this in a wooden boat that uses a
large skeg, (say, Bolger's Fast Power Cruiser)?

Earl
Bolger's scheme to attach external steel plate ballast to the Jochems
schooner is to finish the bottom "as you would without the steel,
covering the wood in glass and epoxy...." The plate is cut into 15
sections, all 3/8" thick, most less than 48" in the longest dimension
to keep expansion below the 1 mm range, the heaviest section is 122
lbs. To attach the plates, Bolger says five countersunk holes in each
steel plate (4 in several of the smaller pieces) for flathead 3/8"
bolts, with nut and big washer inside over the oversized holes in the 1"
thick plywood with 5200 filling the gap around each bolt, as well as a
single bead of 5200 along the perimeter of each plate and as "grout" in
the 1/4" gap between the plates. His big worry is expansion of the
plates as the original Jochems was to trailer from below freezing temps
to the 130 degree western deserts in less than one day.




proaconstrictor wrote:

> The external steel hasn't swept me away, but if the main concern is
> water proofing the thing, then I think hardware bonding should work.
> Under that system, what you do is ensure each screw is in an
> oversized socket of glue, So 1/4" bolts might be in 1/2" sockets
> filled with epoxy. The Gougeons have some rules of thunb on the size
> of the sockets, which may have to be engineered, but if the main
> purpose is waterproofness, or improving bolts or screws Where basic
> sizes and numbers have already been decided) it isn't very technical.
> Prefereably the sockets go right through the ply, and are capped by
> the external glass. Exactly how you do that will depend on what your
> building process is.
>
> For instance imagine a full size crap ply template of the metal
> ballast, with all holes drilled. These could then be transfered to
> the ply bottom, and be drilled. Then you could frame them in rows
> inside, and fill those rows with epoxy putty (if that is too much
> putty, you could fill all the areas with lumber, just have oversized
> holes where the bolts will fall. Flip the boat glass right over the
> holes, flip it again, and pour epoxy into all the holes, flip it
> again and install plates with bonded bolts. Stronger, and there
> isn't any wood to bolt contact for rot to start. I assume the bottom
> of the boat would be a shallow scow during early building, as on the
> LMII, so that all this flipping wouldn't be too tiresome. If you
> don't like the thought of this, consider how horrid it will be if
> your holes leak, and you have to flip the whole boat, with pretty low
> hopes of it ever being properly repaired.
>
> The idea of hardware bonding is not nuts are used, the glue alone
> seals the holes. However, you can include nuts, and use the epoxy
> buffer just to issolate the ballast/bolts from the wood.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/M=249982.3083889.4452939.1728375/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=1524963/R=0/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?camp=556&llineid=3083889&prop=egroupweb&pos=HM>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]