Re: [bolger] Re: PL Experience
The Gorilla Glue and other PL liquid types seem to foam more than the
construction adhesive version of PL Premium. The liquid types would
probably be better for smaller joints for wood working, picture frames, etc.
When gluing oak, I use the Gorilla glue.
I'm certainly no expert but I have used a couple gallons of the liquid
versions and several dozen of the PL Premium tubes.
From this experience I can tell you epoxy is cheaper, actually a lot
cheaper, it's just not as handy and fast to assemble with as PL.
Jeff
construction adhesive version of PL Premium. The liquid types would
probably be better for smaller joints for wood working, picture frames, etc.
When gluing oak, I use the Gorilla glue.
I'm certainly no expert but I have used a couple gallons of the liquid
versions and several dozen of the PL Premium tubes.
From this experience I can tell you epoxy is cheaper, actually a lot
cheaper, it's just not as handy and fast to assemble with as PL.
Jeff
Yes, stitch and glue is different than big boats like the Wyo and if no
chine logs and such are use, stick with epoxy.
The two building methods are as different as night and day. To build a 15
foot boat like the Wyo is built, it would double it's weight for sure.
Adding 1/2 a ton of cedar nailers and 4x4 beams is not such a big deal on a
50 footer.
Building the Wyo is technically very easy compared to my Frolic2. There's
just one heck of a lot more to do and it's 20 times heavier!
Jeff
chine logs and such are use, stick with epoxy.
The two building methods are as different as night and day. To build a 15
foot boat like the Wyo is built, it would double it's weight for sure.
Adding 1/2 a ton of cedar nailers and 4x4 beams is not such a big deal on a
50 footer.
Building the Wyo is technically very easy compared to my Frolic2. There's
just one heck of a lot more to do and it's 20 times heavier!
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A." <marka@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:03 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: PL Experience
>
>
> jeff wrote:
>
> > The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with
glue
> > being the secondary fastener so to speak.
>
> That's different than the smaller Bolger timber chined boats. They seem to
be glue based
> with the fasteners added. Wojtec, in Michalak, called it a, "Glue and wire
technology."
>
> Mark
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>
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>
>
jeff wrote:
with the fasteners added. Wojtec, in Michalak, called it a, "Glue and wire technology."
Mark
> The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with glueThat's different than the smaller Bolger timber chined boats. They seem to be glue based
> being the secondary fastener so to speak.
with the fasteners added. Wojtec, in Michalak, called it a, "Glue and wire technology."
Mark
I have done gorilla glue and a pl glue that acted like it (ie foaming). PL
premium construction glue is a horse of a differn't color,(grey in this
case). It is like sitka flex or 5200. Thick goo that sets up, fills gaps
not through foaming, but because you really slathered it on.
HJ
I can say this though, PL has no strength at all if it foams in the joint.
The glue expands to fill the tiny cracks and wood grain which is where it
gets its strength by imbedding itself into the material. The foam on the
other hand is just that, foam and can be peeled away with a finger nail. No
way that could be safe on a boat.
It must be a tight joint and I personally would keep the fasteners in place.
The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with glue
being the secondary fastener so to speak.
Jeff
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premium construction glue is a horse of a differn't color,(grey in this
case). It is like sitka flex or 5200. Thick goo that sets up, fills gaps
not through foaming, but because you really slathered it on.
HJ
> Any ideas on how to get the PL to cure in a lump,I can't think of a way for PL to cure in a lump other than a lump of foam.
> no foaming, and good bond to the surrounding wood?
I can say this though, PL has no strength at all if it foams in the joint.
The glue expands to fill the tiny cracks and wood grain which is where it
gets its strength by imbedding itself into the material. The foam on the
other hand is just that, foam and can be peeled away with a finger nail. No
way that could be safe on a boat.
It must be a tight joint and I personally would keep the fasteners in place.
The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with glue
being the secondary fastener so to speak.
Jeff
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/.
> Any ideas on how to get the PL to cure in a lump,I can't think of a way for PL to cure in a lump other than a lump of foam.
> no foaming, and good bond to the surrounding wood?
I can say this though, PL has no strength at all if it foams in the joint.
The glue expands to fill the tiny cracks and wood grain which is where it
gets its strength by imbedding itself into the material. The foam on the
other hand is just that, foam and can be peeled away with a finger nail. No
way that could be safe on a boat.
It must be a tight joint and I personally would keep the fasteners in place.
The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with glue
being the secondary fastener so to speak.
Jeff
> I envision this kind of discussions going on as builders debatedgoing from
> wooden pegs to iron spikes, copper sheathing rather than tar,resorcinol to
> epoxy, or even using plywood.As you know, in the case of a lot of Bolger boats, the joints are
>
> Time will tell.
>
> Jeff
around lumber, and the loads are going to fasteners and so forth,
nothing like either PL or epoxy was ever specified, though some of
the older boat glues were as good as epoxy in this use. Some of us
convert these tack and tape or whatever designs to sticht and glue
with some kinds of coves and fillets, and we are on our own.
On the other hand, for those who may push the joints to the max, it
isn't really a mysterious evolutionary process. From charter boat
certification before the USCG, to NASA/GE windturbine program that
allowed the Gougeon's to fill a lab with testing gear, there are
numbers out there.
In the home shop - PL is pretty stiff bodies, and could be subjected
to a notched beam test against epoxy. It would be cool to see what
would happen both with a pure PL joint, and possibly a PL joint where
the walls of the sample where whipped with gorilla glue. Either way
my money is on the epoxy sample, but at least we would have some
numbers around it. Any ideas on how to get the PL to cure in a lump,
no foaming, and good bond to the surrounding wood?
> But again, no need to worry unless there are realy fidgity people onNo they are not structural.
> your sofas. Also are these structural? If not, they could be bean
> bags for all it would mater.
I envision this kind of discussions going on as builders debated going from
wooden pegs to iron spikes, copper sheathing rather than tar, resorcinol to
epoxy, or even using plywood.
Time will tell.
Jeff
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...>
wrote:
decides, with your boat. The point I am making is only related to
your question as to whether a destruction test is pretty much all we
need to know. If that were the case, there wouldn't be all these
testing methods like the hydromat, we could just hit things with
hammers. The interesting point the gougeons make is that things
often fall appart not with the big blow, but a spar just falls over
in harbour on a gentle day. Why? Millions of cycles to failure, with
each little click of the halyard as the boat sways this way an that.
It isn't only the big loads, but also the constant little loads.
But again, no need to worry unless there are realy fidgity people on
your sofas. Also are these structural? If not, they could be bean
bags for all it would mater.
wrote:
> I have the pictures on my website and I think you'll have to agreethat the
> PL made a very strong joint.place in boat
>
>http://4dw.net/cosailor
>
> I do not wish to get into any discussion as to the merits or the
> construction methods using PL Premium. In my opinion it has a
> building. Maybe not everywhere but certainly a good deal of thegluing one
> does when building boats.As mentioned my comments have nothing to do, except as nature
>
> Jeff
> >
decides, with your boat. The point I am making is only related to
your question as to whether a destruction test is pretty much all we
need to know. If that were the case, there wouldn't be all these
testing methods like the hydromat, we could just hit things with
hammers. The interesting point the gougeons make is that things
often fall appart not with the big blow, but a spar just falls over
in harbour on a gentle day. Why? Millions of cycles to failure, with
each little click of the halyard as the boat sways this way an that.
It isn't only the big loads, but also the constant little loads.
But again, no need to worry unless there are realy fidgity people on
your sofas. Also are these structural? If not, they could be bean
bags for all it would mater.
Jeff,
I had a similar experience with PL Premium when I started my first
boat (recently completed). For the framing on the transom I had
figured the bevels wrong and had screwed and glued (with PL) the
pieces to the outside of the transom by mistake. I discovered that
only about a half hour after putting the pieces together so I thought
I might be able to salvage the 3/4" ply transom. I removed the
screws and smacked the framing pieces with a rubber mallet. One
piece did finally come loose, but took the plywood it was glued to
with it to a depth of about 1/4"-- and this was after only a half
hour!
Needless to say, I sawed out a new transom and now have great
respect for PL Premium!
Rick
I had a similar experience with PL Premium when I started my first
boat (recently completed). For the framing on the transom I had
figured the bevels wrong and had screwed and glued (with PL) the
pieces to the outside of the transom by mistake. I discovered that
only about a half hour after putting the pieces together so I thought
I might be able to salvage the 3/4" ply transom. I removed the
screws and smacked the framing pieces with a rubber mallet. One
piece did finally come loose, but took the plywood it was glued to
with it to a depth of about 1/4"-- and this was after only a half
hour!
Needless to say, I sawed out a new transom and now have great
respect for PL Premium!
Rick
I have the pictures on my website and I think you'll have to agree that the
PL made a very strong joint.
http://4dw.net/cosailor
I do not wish to get into any discussion as to the merits or the
construction methods using PL Premium. In my opinion it has a place in boat
building. Maybe not everywhere but certainly a good deal of the gluing one
does when building boats.
Jeff
PL made a very strong joint.
http://4dw.net/cosailor
I do not wish to get into any discussion as to the merits or the
construction methods using PL Premium. In my opinion it has a place in boat
building. Maybe not everywhere but certainly a good deal of the gluing one
does when building boats.
Jeff
>
> None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
> could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
> you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
> performance of materials.
>
>
Well said! This should be pinned to the boat shed wall and frequently re read! If you can swim and the water is warm [and shallow!] then a cardboard boat glued with fish paste makes sense.........however,far out at sea on a falling glass you may wish you had chosen something else............Andy
proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:"What more does glue have to do but out last the materials it's
holding together."
I don't find this report particularly surprising, any construction
adhesive would have done the same, unless water was a big issue.
Basicaly the expectation of a good glue is that the wood breaks
before the glue. I think fish paste would do this. Big deal.
In your situation, the structural issue I imagine would be whether
the seats play an essential part in the overall structure of the
boat. In some boats the furniture is an essential element in the
strength of the boat. On the other hand if it is just holding itself
up like a gloryfied love seat then construction grade materials with
maintenance characteristics you feel comfortible with should be fine.
Where the joint is structural, destruction tests aren't always
adequate. The forces applied to the boat are long term. A bulkhead's
ability to resist over years is completely different than it's
ability to resist a blow from a hammer.
Also, when one takes something apart of course one tries to pry
pieces apart along their lines of greatest weakness, for instance
spliting the plywood around the glue. But when aligning the materials
to bear loads its the opposite, you try to place them so they will
take the biggest loads possible. Wood splits esily, and the loads
you applied split with the grain. Good structure aligns loads with
wood's strengths, endgrain compresion, and in line with the grain.
One tries to distribute loads as broadly as possible, and where
possible as shear loads to the glue joints. If these loads are
significant and persistant, they will severely test the glue in the
joints.
Take a hurricane clip, or any similar little piece of Strongtie
metal. You can get your claw in under that and pull it off easily.
You might say, "it pulled ou real easy, why not use non-code nails,
or plastic ones, they could hardly pull out any easier". But the
clips are loaded tranverse to the nail, and how easily the nail pulls
out is irrelevant, how easily the heads shear off matters a lot.
None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
performance of materials.
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proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:"What more does glue have to do but out last the materials it's
holding together."
I don't find this report particularly surprising, any construction
adhesive would have done the same, unless water was a big issue.
Basicaly the expectation of a good glue is that the wood breaks
before the glue. I think fish paste would do this. Big deal.
In your situation, the structural issue I imagine would be whether
the seats play an essential part in the overall structure of the
boat. In some boats the furniture is an essential element in the
strength of the boat. On the other hand if it is just holding itself
up like a gloryfied love seat then construction grade materials with
maintenance characteristics you feel comfortible with should be fine.
Where the joint is structural, destruction tests aren't always
adequate. The forces applied to the boat are long term. A bulkhead's
ability to resist over years is completely different than it's
ability to resist a blow from a hammer.
Also, when one takes something apart of course one tries to pry
pieces apart along their lines of greatest weakness, for instance
spliting the plywood around the glue. But when aligning the materials
to bear loads its the opposite, you try to place them so they will
take the biggest loads possible. Wood splits esily, and the loads
you applied split with the grain. Good structure aligns loads with
wood's strengths, endgrain compresion, and in line with the grain.
One tries to distribute loads as broadly as possible, and where
possible as shear loads to the glue joints. If these loads are
significant and persistant, they will severely test the glue in the
joints.
Take a hurricane clip, or any similar little piece of Strongtie
metal. You can get your claw in under that and pull it off easily.
You might say, "it pulled ou real easy, why not use non-code nails,
or plastic ones, they could hardly pull out any easier". But the
clips are loaded tranverse to the nail, and how easily the nail pulls
out is irrelevant, how easily the heads shear off matters a lot.
None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
performance of materials.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mobile
- Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"What more does glue have to do but out last the materials it's
holding together."
I don't find this report particularly surprising, any construction
adhesive would have done the same, unless water was a big issue.
Basicaly the expectation of a good glue is that the wood breaks
before the glue. I think fish paste would do this. Big deal.
In your situation, the structural issue I imagine would be whether
the seats play an essential part in the overall structure of the
boat. In some boats the furniture is an essential element in the
strength of the boat. On the other hand if it is just holding itself
up like a gloryfied love seat then construction grade materials with
maintenance characteristics you feel comfortible with should be fine.
Where the joint is structural, destruction tests aren't always
adequate. The forces applied to the boat are long term. A bulkhead's
ability to resist over years is completely different than it's
ability to resist a blow from a hammer.
Also, when one takes something apart of course one tries to pry
pieces apart along their lines of greatest weakness, for instance
spliting the plywood around the glue. But when aligning the materials
to bear loads its the opposite, you try to place them so they will
take the biggest loads possible. Wood splits esily, and the loads
you applied split with the grain. Good structure aligns loads with
wood's strengths, endgrain compresion, and in line with the grain.
One tries to distribute loads as broadly as possible, and where
possible as shear loads to the glue joints. If these loads are
significant and persistant, they will severely test the glue in the
joints.
Take a hurricane clip, or any similar little piece of Strongtie
metal. You can get your claw in under that and pull it off easily.
You might say, "it pulled ou real easy, why not use non-code nails,
or plastic ones, they could hardly pull out any easier". But the
clips are loaded tranverse to the nail, and how easily the nail pulls
out is irrelevant, how easily the heads shear off matters a lot.
None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
performance of materials.
holding together."
I don't find this report particularly surprising, any construction
adhesive would have done the same, unless water was a big issue.
Basicaly the expectation of a good glue is that the wood breaks
before the glue. I think fish paste would do this. Big deal.
In your situation, the structural issue I imagine would be whether
the seats play an essential part in the overall structure of the
boat. In some boats the furniture is an essential element in the
strength of the boat. On the other hand if it is just holding itself
up like a gloryfied love seat then construction grade materials with
maintenance characteristics you feel comfortible with should be fine.
Where the joint is structural, destruction tests aren't always
adequate. The forces applied to the boat are long term. A bulkhead's
ability to resist over years is completely different than it's
ability to resist a blow from a hammer.
Also, when one takes something apart of course one tries to pry
pieces apart along their lines of greatest weakness, for instance
spliting the plywood around the glue. But when aligning the materials
to bear loads its the opposite, you try to place them so they will
take the biggest loads possible. Wood splits esily, and the loads
you applied split with the grain. Good structure aligns loads with
wood's strengths, endgrain compresion, and in line with the grain.
One tries to distribute loads as broadly as possible, and where
possible as shear loads to the glue joints. If these loads are
significant and persistant, they will severely test the glue in the
joints.
Take a hurricane clip, or any similar little piece of Strongtie
metal. You can get your claw in under that and pull it off easily.
You might say, "it pulled ou real easy, why not use non-code nails,
or plastic ones, they could hardly pull out any easier". But the
clips are loaded tranverse to the nail, and how easily the nail pulls
out is irrelevant, how easily the heads shear off matters a lot.
None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
performance of materials.
PL is PL Premium a construction glue that comes in yellow and black tubes
that work in caulking guns. It is a lot easier to use than epoxy, just grab
the gun and squirt.
Fritz Funk (my neighbor) at
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
has used it a lot, no failures. See the wacky lassie page.
I am using it on 2 of the Gulls we are building.
HJ
Hi,I`m a "newbie" to the list, what kind of adhesive/glue is PL?Going to
build a "6 Hour canoe" this month, good for ply and butt blocks? Thanks
cecil
craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:> I'm sold on PL.
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/.
that work in caulking guns. It is a lot easier to use than epoxy, just grab
the gun and squirt.
Fritz Funk (my neighbor) at
http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm
has used it a lot, no failures. See the wacky lassie page.
I am using it on 2 of the Gulls we are building.
HJ
Hi,I`m a "newbie" to the list, what kind of adhesive/glue is PL?Going to
build a "6 Hour canoe" this month, good for ply and butt blocks? Thanks
cecil
craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:> I'm sold on PL.
>but
> I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape
>I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Monday.
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/.
Hi,I`m a "newbie" to the list, what kind of adhesive/glue is PL?Going to build a "6 Hour canoe" this month, good for ply and butt blocks? Thanks cecil
craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:> I'm sold on PL.
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:> I'm sold on PL.
>---------------------------------
> I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape but
>I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or
>Monday.
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm sold on PL.Ah, thanks for the report.
>
> I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape but
>I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or
>Monday.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
I just spent the afternoon ripping the entire seating out of my Wyoming
cockpit. We decide to go with the designed layout rather than built in
seating, anyway, I assembled what was essentially 22 feet of cockpit seats
with PL and screws last fall.
In every case with no exceptions, the wood failed before the glue. Either
the 2x2 nailer split out or the top one or two plys of the plywood pull out.
Even using a sharp wood chisel, the glue would just lift the plywood ply
rather than break up.
I must have pulled about 60 feet of glue joints apart and I am very
impressed with the strength. Some of this PL was used on top of sanded
epoxy coating and it actually pulled the ply off with the epoxy coat rather
than fail.
Though it may not be as strong as epoxy, it's certainly much stronger than
cedar and high quality 1/2 plywood. What more does glue have to do but out
last the materials it's holding together.
I'm sold on PL.
I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape but
I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or
Monday.
Jeff
http://4wd.net/cosailor
cockpit. We decide to go with the designed layout rather than built in
seating, anyway, I assembled what was essentially 22 feet of cockpit seats
with PL and screws last fall.
In every case with no exceptions, the wood failed before the glue. Either
the 2x2 nailer split out or the top one or two plys of the plywood pull out.
Even using a sharp wood chisel, the glue would just lift the plywood ply
rather than break up.
I must have pulled about 60 feet of glue joints apart and I am very
impressed with the strength. Some of this PL was used on top of sanded
epoxy coating and it actually pulled the ply off with the epoxy coat rather
than fail.
Though it may not be as strong as epoxy, it's certainly much stronger than
cedar and high quality 1/2 plywood. What more does glue have to do but out
last the materials it's holding together.
I'm sold on PL.
I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape but
I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or
Monday.
Jeff
http://4wd.net/cosailor