Re: [bolger] Teal plywood sides breaking
Cottonwood isn't much good for structural stuff, it's not rot resistant at
all, it's not strong and it's brittle (go down by the river after a wind
storm and see all the broken cottonwood limbs, or even trunks). Around here
they used to make excelsior out of the black cottonwood ("ba'm") trees, and
of course used them to fire steamboats, but that's all it was considered
good for. Now they're growing hydbrids and cultivars of other kinds of
cottonwoods (though they usually call them "poplars") for pulp and,
apparently, plywood too. Soaked with glue, and as a filler to keep the outer
plies apart, it might be fine, but I wouldn't want it in a boat. Actually,
when the plywood mill workers told me about it, I thought it was a good idea
for most applications, since cottonwood trees grow so fast.
I'm not one of those people with an irrational dislike of cottonwood trees
(they exist, and years ago one of them got to be responsible for the trees
in Eugene's parks! fortunately, someone noticed before too much damage was
done). I even planted some sterile male clone eastern cottonwoods in my
front yard for shade! I like the rustle of the leaves in the breeze. <g>
all, it's not strong and it's brittle (go down by the river after a wind
storm and see all the broken cottonwood limbs, or even trunks). Around here
they used to make excelsior out of the black cottonwood ("ba'm") trees, and
of course used them to fire steamboats, but that's all it was considered
good for. Now they're growing hydbrids and cultivars of other kinds of
cottonwoods (though they usually call them "poplars") for pulp and,
apparently, plywood too. Soaked with glue, and as a filler to keep the outer
plies apart, it might be fine, but I wouldn't want it in a boat. Actually,
when the plywood mill workers told me about it, I thought it was a good idea
for most applications, since cottonwood trees grow so fast.
I'm not one of those people with an irrational dislike of cottonwood trees
(they exist, and years ago one of them got to be responsible for the trees
in Eugene's parks! fortunately, someone noticed before too much damage was
done). I even planted some sterile male clone eastern cottonwoods in my
front yard for shade! I like the rustle of the leaves in the breeze. <g>
On Thu, 8 May 2003 16:06:26 -0500 (CDT), Chris Crandall wrote:
> My Teal is nominal 1/4 inch, it's plenty.
>
> > Some Douglas Fir plywood is made nowadays with fir outer plies, but
> > inner plies of whatever they can get cheap, even cottonwood!
>
> There is nothing wrong with cottonwood, per se. It's a decent hardwood,
> under the right circumstances. The "cotton" does not refer to the lumber,
> which dries out quite hard and strong. It refers to the "cotton" which
> the tree releases, which plug up air intake vents, radiators, and air
> conditioning units. The trees themselves, when very old,or very young.
> can be quite handsome.
>
> I wouldn't put it in fir plywood myself, in large part because it has very
> low rot resistance.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
<Mark Twain>
> From:jhkohnen@...My Teal is nominal 1/4 inch, it's plenty.
> Subject: Re: Re: Teal plywood sides breaking
>
> Plenty of Teals have been made with 1/4" ply. I wouldn't be surprised to
> learn that more have been built with 1/4" than the specified 3/8"!
> Some Douglas Fir plywood is made nowadays with fir outer plies, butThere is nothing wrong with cottonwood, per se. It's a decent hardwood,
> inner plies of whatever they can get cheap, even cottonwood!
under the right circumstances. The "cotton" does not refer to the lumber,
which dries out quite hard and strong. It refers to the "cotton" which
the tree releases, which plug up air intake vents, radiators, and air
conditioning units. The trees themselves, when very old,or very young.
can be quite handsome.
I wouldn't put it in fir plywood myself, in large part because it has very
low rot resistance.
Sounds like you just got a particularly bad piece of plywood. :o( The curves
on Teal aren't so extreme that you should need to steam the sides. I haven't
built a Teal, but I've seen photos of Payson (and also an inexperienced NF
or Int'l Marine office worker) building a Teal, and it didn't look like they
had to struggle. Are you sure that the temporary molds are the right
dimensions? You might be trying to put more curve in the sides than Bolger
intended.
Plenty of Teals have been made with 1/4" ply. I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that more have been built with 1/4" than the specified 3/8"!
Some Douglas Fir plywood is made nowadays with fir outer plies, but inner
plies of whatever they can get cheap, even cottonwood! Most plywood plant
workers I've met (and I used to drink at a biker bar down the road from one
of Eugene's larger ones) haven't been the sort to take pride in their work,
but even they were disgusted when the plant started using cottonwood cores!
I don't know if they still do, one of the worst offenders shut down, but
many plywood mills used to pay the people who laid up the sheets by
piecework, or at least gave bonuses above their wages for high production.
Some teams of three or four workers would turn out incredible numbers of
sheets per shift and get mentioned in the newspaper. What got mentioned less
in the papers was that some of the teams prepared for work by getting
cranked up on meth, "blue collar cocaine". Needless to say, the quest for
speed, and in some cases the use of speed, didn't do much for the quality of
the plywood...
on Teal aren't so extreme that you should need to steam the sides. I haven't
built a Teal, but I've seen photos of Payson (and also an inexperienced NF
or Int'l Marine office worker) building a Teal, and it didn't look like they
had to struggle. Are you sure that the temporary molds are the right
dimensions? You might be trying to put more curve in the sides than Bolger
intended.
Plenty of Teals have been made with 1/4" ply. I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that more have been built with 1/4" than the specified 3/8"!
Some Douglas Fir plywood is made nowadays with fir outer plies, but inner
plies of whatever they can get cheap, even cottonwood! Most plywood plant
workers I've met (and I used to drink at a biker bar down the road from one
of Eugene's larger ones) haven't been the sort to take pride in their work,
but even they were disgusted when the plant started using cottonwood cores!
I don't know if they still do, one of the worst offenders shut down, but
many plywood mills used to pay the people who laid up the sheets by
piecework, or at least gave bonuses above their wages for high production.
Some teams of three or four workers would turn out incredible numbers of
sheets per shift and get mentioned in the newspaper. What got mentioned less
in the papers was that some of the teams prepared for work by getting
cranked up on meth, "blue collar cocaine". Needless to say, the quest for
speed, and in some cases the use of speed, didn't do much for the quality of
the plywood...
On Tue, 06 May 2003 08:54:21 -0600, Hal wrote:
> The 3/8 I used on my Teal had 3 equal thickness plies.
> I don't have a clue what wood was involved. When I
> bent the plywood the break was sort of a jagged half
> moon shape. It looked like the outer ply broke where
> the grain came through the surface. Does that make
> sense, I'm not sure I explained it correctly. There
> were no voids that I could see. If I remember correctly
> the break happened the next day after the glue had set.
> I was not pleased!
>
> Even though the plans call for 3/8 ply I think 1/4 would do.
>
> Going real slow with hot water soaked towels on the ply
> might do the job too.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on.
<William Burroughs>
On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 05:02 PM,jhkohnen@...wrote:
I don't have a clue what wood was involved. When I
bent the plywood the break was sort of a jagged half
moon shape. It looked like the outer ply broke where
the grain came through the surface. Does that make
sense, I'm not sure I explained it correctly. There
were no voids that I could see. If I remember correctly
the break happened the next day after the glue had set.
I was not pleased!
Even though the plans call for 3/8 ply I think 1/4 would do.
Going real slow with hot water soaked towels on the ply
might do the job too.
hal
> But the Teal plans call for 3/8" ply. I'm thinking that the poor gradeThe 3/8 I used on my Teal had 3 equal thickness plies.
> plywood from Roseburg (all construction plywood is lousy these days)
> had a
> crosswise void in the inner ply all the way across the sheet, caused by
> sloppy layup of the veneers, and that's where it snapped.
I don't have a clue what wood was involved. When I
bent the plywood the break was sort of a jagged half
moon shape. It looked like the outer ply broke where
the grain came through the surface. Does that make
sense, I'm not sure I explained it correctly. There
were no voids that I could see. If I remember correctly
the break happened the next day after the glue had set.
I was not pleased!
Even though the plans call for 3/8 ply I think 1/4 would do.
Going real slow with hot water soaked towels on the ply
might do the job too.
hal
>HJ
>
>You never stated whether it was ACX or Marine plywood. Somewhere Dynamite Payson makes the statement that 3/8th's ACX has a core that would shame a used car salesman. This pretty well describes any I have seen.
>
>
>
>>When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
>>plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
>>the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
>>mill.
>>
>>
>
>If it came from a Roseburg mill then it is most likely real Douglas fir (good) and not red or piss fir (bad). However, 3/8" 3-ply is generally not very good stuff. You will have better luck with 1/4" which is usually made to a higher standard.
>
>Doug
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "play1959" <larryh@n...> wrote:
Doug
> When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, theIf it came from a Roseburg mill then it is most likely real Douglas fir (good) and not red or piss fir (bad). However, 3/8" 3-ply is generally not very good stuff. You will have better luck with 1/4" which is usually made to a higher standard.
> plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
> the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
> mill.
Doug
But the Teal plans call for 3/8" ply. I'm thinking that the poor grade
plywood from Roseburg (all construction plywood is lousy these days) had a
crosswise void in the inner ply all the way across the sheet, caused by
sloppy layup of the veneers, and that's where it snapped. :o( If you've got
to use trashy plywood, try to fill the crosswise voids with resin, and try
to situate them where they're under the least stress. After building a
couple of boats using the cheapest materials (AC construction ply for one,
lauan ply for another) I've decided that it's just not worth the trouble.
plywood from Roseburg (all construction plywood is lousy these days) had a
crosswise void in the inner ply all the way across the sheet, caused by
sloppy layup of the veneers, and that's where it snapped. :o( If you've got
to use trashy plywood, try to fill the crosswise voids with resin, and try
to situate them where they're under the least stress. After building a
couple of boats using the cheapest materials (AC construction ply for one,
lauan ply for another) I've decided that it's just not worth the trouble.
On Mon, 05 May 2003 13:15:12 -0000, Wayne Farris wrote:
> I think the best advice given is to use 1/4 inch plywood where it is
> specified. 3/8 inch plywood just wont bend as well. The designer
> takes that into account and specifies the appropriate plywood
> accordingly(weight is another consideration). Trust the plans!
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine.
<H. W. Tilman>
Next time, wet the plywood---maybe even put a little heat to it also (SWMBO's hair dryer). Should go around nicely.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hal Lynch
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Teal plywood sides breaking
On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 12:47 AM, play1959 wrote:
> When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
> plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
> the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
> mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
> instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
> the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
> taking a "set". At least not after one day.
> Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?
This happened to me when I bent the sides onto
my Teal also. Not knowing any better I worked a lot
of glue into the fracture and sanded it nearly smooth.
The side is now nearly fair and doesn't look all that bad.
Strength will not be a problem.
Having said that, I would use 1/4 inch ply. if I had to
do it again. 3/8 on the bottom and 1/4 on the sides.
Teal would be lighter too.
hal
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On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 12:47 AM, play1959 wrote:
my Teal also. Not knowing any better I worked a lot
of glue into the fracture and sanded it nearly smooth.
The side is now nearly fair and doesn't look all that bad.
Strength will not be a problem.
Having said that, I would use 1/4 inch ply. if I had to
do it again. 3/8 on the bottom and 1/4 on the sides.
Teal would be lighter too.
hal
> When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, theThis happened to me when I bent the sides onto
> plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
> the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
> mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
> instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
> the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
> taking a "set". At least not after one day.
> Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?
my Teal also. Not knowing any better I worked a lot
of glue into the fracture and sanded it nearly smooth.
The side is now nearly fair and doesn't look all that bad.
Strength will not be a problem.
Having said that, I would use 1/4 inch ply. if I had to
do it again. 3/8 on the bottom and 1/4 on the sides.
Teal would be lighter too.
hal
Ah right.
I scanned those long ago for Joe's Shantyboat Pages.
http://euler.sfasu.edu/Shantyboats/
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
I scanned those long ago for Joe's Shantyboat Pages.
http://euler.sfasu.edu/Shantyboats/
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
I think the best advice given is to use 1/4 inch plywood where it is
specified. 3/8 inch plywood just wont bend as well. The designer
takes that into account and specifies the appropriate plywood
accordingly(weight is another consideration). Trust the plans!
specified. 3/8 inch plywood just wont bend as well. The designer
takes that into account and specifies the appropriate plywood
accordingly(weight is another consideration). Trust the plans!
Sorry to hear about your setback.Don't know if this is your first
attempt at building but do not be discouraged! As others have
said,learning how to repair things is like another tool in your
toolbox.Also, it can be really nice to get the best plywood money can
buy.However,if money is tight or nothing good can be found in your
area, there is another option.So long as you are not in a rush,then
time can be your friend.Using the "spanish windless" trick with
ropes,SLOWLY bring the two halves together while keeping a few
rags/old towels drapped over the point of greatest curvature.These
towels will be kept soaked with boiling water(say every half hour or
so,you pour the contents of one kettle over the towels).The wood will
become limber enough to gradually take the gentle curve of TEALs
sides.Don't rush it! This may take up a days worth of your time but
this time could be used to either continue assembling the other
parts,working on the spars,or doing the leeboard/rudder.
Once you do manage to bring the two halves together,remove the towels
so that the sides lay fair against the center frame.Let things dry
out for a few days before doing any gluing or epoxy work in that
specific area.
Once finished, a nice drapping of fiberglass cloth set in epoxy over
the outside will help protect the"cheap" plywood to some extent.
I hope this boat building experience works out for you and inspires
other boats! And never fear,no matter how many boats you build,you
will always have mistakes to deal with,they just won't always be the
same ones :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who could fill a book with his own mistakes,from along
the shores of the St.Lawrence.......
attempt at building but do not be discouraged! As others have
said,learning how to repair things is like another tool in your
toolbox.Also, it can be really nice to get the best plywood money can
buy.However,if money is tight or nothing good can be found in your
area, there is another option.So long as you are not in a rush,then
time can be your friend.Using the "spanish windless" trick with
ropes,SLOWLY bring the two halves together while keeping a few
rags/old towels drapped over the point of greatest curvature.These
towels will be kept soaked with boiling water(say every half hour or
so,you pour the contents of one kettle over the towels).The wood will
become limber enough to gradually take the gentle curve of TEALs
sides.Don't rush it! This may take up a days worth of your time but
this time could be used to either continue assembling the other
parts,working on the spars,or doing the leeboard/rudder.
Once you do manage to bring the two halves together,remove the towels
so that the sides lay fair against the center frame.Let things dry
out for a few days before doing any gluing or epoxy work in that
specific area.
Once finished, a nice drapping of fiberglass cloth set in epoxy over
the outside will help protect the"cheap" plywood to some extent.
I hope this boat building experience works out for you and inspires
other boats! And never fear,no matter how many boats you build,you
will always have mistakes to deal with,they just won't always be the
same ones :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who could fill a book with his own mistakes,from along
the shores of the St.Lawrence.......
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "play1959" <larryh@n...> wrote:
> When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
> plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this
Hi, Use 1/4" ply. Avoid plywood with thin face plies and a thick core.
Best use 5 ply and the best material you can afford. 1/4" is plenty
stiff and strong for Teal. If your worried about the bottom you should
not have trouble with 3/8" on the bottom. In general from what I read
3/8 has a bad reputation. Bending around those temporary frames in
Teal tests plywood to the utmost. Better it breaks while under
construction than in the water. Chalk it up to experience.
Bob Chamberland
Best use 5 ply and the best material you can afford. 1/4" is plenty
stiff and strong for Teal. If your worried about the bottom you should
not have trouble with 3/8" on the bottom. In general from what I read
3/8 has a bad reputation. Bending around those temporary frames in
Teal tests plywood to the utmost. Better it breaks while under
construction than in the water. Chalk it up to experience.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "play1959" <larryh@n...> wrote:
> When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
> plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
> the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
> mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
> instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
> the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
> taking a "set". At least not after one day.
> Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?
3 ply will break along a hidden core void[gap between the lay up of the center veneer]. This is almost certain if the center veneer is thicker. 5ply has less chance of this happening but still look carefully at the edges for these defects. Notwithstanding Herreshof's gloomy views I do think that 3ply is ok for draw bottoms,not much else. Sorry. Andy
play1959 <larryh@...> wrote:When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
taking a "set". At least not after one day.
Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?
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play1959 <larryh@...> wrote:When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
taking a "set". At least not after one day.
Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Don't worry. Learning to fix things is part of the 'skill set'.
Where is the break? How many layers are there in your ply? How many of the
layers are damaged? Can you take a picture and post it to the Photos
section?
Derek
Where is the break? How many layers are there in your ply? How many of the
layers are damaged? Can you take a picture and post it to the Photos
section?
Derek
When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
taking a "set". At least not after one day.
Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?
plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
taking a "set". At least not after one day.
Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?