Re: [bolger] Re: RE: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows

You can get bulk silica gel at craft shops, used to dry flowers. I used it
to dry some books that got wet aboard.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Meloy" <dreambignow@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: RE: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows


> Don't know if this will help but the business jet aircraft that I worked
on in a previous life had a single vent for the space between window panels
with a small plastic see through canister of drying silica attached much
like an inline filter. The silica when red and "full" of moisture, could be
emptied and dried on a cookie sheet in a warm oven to rejuvinate it back to
its blue "dry" state.
>
> Best to ya, Jim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lincoln Ross
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:58 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: RE: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows
>
>
> It would probably be easy to borrow a cylinder of dry air, argon,
> nitrogen, etc. on the day you glue so you could flush out the air and
> moisture. I think most compressed gasses are dried so as not to corrode
> cylinders. Maybe put a little silica gel or something in the window to
> be extra paranoid.
> I lost track of who wrote:
>
> >
> >Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would
the
> >warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
> >would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it
must
> >in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
> >condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
> >what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
> >to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
> >volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
> >glue it together.
> >
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Don't know if this will help but the business jet aircraft that I worked on in a previous life had a single vent for the space between window panels with a small plastic see through canister of drying silica attached much like an inline filter. The silica when red and "full" of moisture, could be emptied and dried on a cookie sheet in a warm oven to rejuvinate it back to its blue "dry" state.

Best to ya, Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Lincoln Ross
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:58 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: RE: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows


It would probably be easy to borrow a cylinder of dry air, argon,
nitrogen, etc. on the day you glue so you could flush out the air and
moisture. I think most compressed gasses are dried so as not to corrode
cylinders. Maybe put a little silica gel or something in the window to
be extra paranoid.
I lost track of who wrote:

>
>Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would the
>warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
>would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it must
>in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
>condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
>what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
>to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
>volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
>glue it together.
>


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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chodges31711 wrote:
> Don't you have to grind the drill bit so that the cutting edge is 90
> degrees ( vertical) to the work. That makes it less aggressive so it
> won't pull in and wedge the hole apart. Slow rpm too.

Some people also say you should dip the bit into water
regularly to keep it cool. If the plastic melts it jams
the bit.

Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
It would probably be easy to borrow a cylinder of dry air, argon,
nitrogen, etc. on the day you glue so you could flush out the air and
moisture. I think most compressed gasses are dried so as not to corrode
cylinders. Maybe put a little silica gel or something in the window to
be extra paranoid.
I lost track of who wrote:

>
>Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would the
>warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
>would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it must
>in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
>condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
>what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
>to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
>volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
>glue it together.
>
What I have used to put holes in plexiglas before was a cheap
(disposable) soldering iron.

You can get one of these at radio shack for about $6.

Use the "pencil type".

Alternatively, you could use a nail of the right diameter held with
vice grips and heated red hot with a propane torch.
Howdy

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows
>
> Do you do your 'grinding' with a
> bench grinder? or with a hand file?
> or with a grinding stone?

I use a bench grinder. My Father showed me how to sharpen drill bits on
a bench grinder years ago. So I was comfortable grinding some of my
cheaper drills for plastic. :)

Good Luck

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
--- "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@c...>
> It's pretty easy to make a drill
> for plastic, just take a conventional
> twist drill, and carefully grind the
> cutting edges flat. Inexpensive

Do you do your 'grinding' with a
bench grinder? or with a hand file?
or with a grinding stone?
Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would the
warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it must
in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
glue it together.

craig o'donnell wrote:

>>a nearby
>>hospital which is being visited by thousands of people because they
>>think the condensation inside looks like a religious figure.
>>
>>
>
>Well, if they're worshippping it, it IS a religious figure.
>
>
>a nearby
>hospital which is being visited by thousands of people because they
>think the condensation inside looks like a religious figure.

Well, if they're worshippping it, it IS a religious figure.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
The usual solvent glues, easily available, work wonderfully well on
acrylic (given a good fit) but tend to make polycarbonate (i.e. lexan)
crack. If you make sealed double pane windows, make sure you get the
moisture out or you may end up with a window like the one in a nearby
hospital which is being visited by thousands of people because they
think the condensation inside looks like a religious figure.

>HJ wrote:
>
>On this group a year or 2 back some one, and it might have been you Vince,
>put out a link to a plastic company that had glue for plexiglas and lexan.
>I have moved through several computers since and lost the link.
>
>My thought to was to cut two panes for whatever window hole and glue a
>spacer about 1/4 by 1/4 between them around the outer edge that would seal
>the airspace. This would create a double pane window, which we really need
>around here. Single pane weeps like a plaintif on divorce court.
>
>If anybody has that link please republish.
>
>HJ
>
Howdy Bruce

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows

> *Every* time I have tried to
> drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
> I have cracked it. I hope [and

I'm just guessing, but I suspect that you were using a conventional
twist drill to drill the plastic. Conventional twist drill are ground
to cut through metal. The resulting grind causes the bits to bite into
the plastic and pull it into the cut, so instead of cutting the plastic
the bit acts like a wedge and forces it's way into the hole. That
results in internal stresses in the plastic which causes the cracks. I
think. :)

Drills to cut plastic are ground differently. They are ground with a
flat surface on the face of the twist. I just don't seem able to find
the words to describe it more accurately, so here is a picture.

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/trooper/handle/Im000681.jpg

If you look closely at the cutting edge of the bit, you will see a white
area at the cutting edge of the drill. That edge is in line with the
long axis of the drill. The flat surface prevents the bit from digging
in to the plastic, and results in nice holes, without cracks.

It's pretty easy to make a drill for plastic, just take a conventional
twist drill, and carefully grind the cutting edges flat. Inexpensive
drills work great, since even the cheapest drill is more than tough
enough to cut plastic.

I could get a better photo if you like.

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
I installed lexan windows in my Micro using a standard wood, plastic,
metal drill bit. It was brand new and I drilled at a relatively slow
rpm.

The windows were then sealed in bedding compound and pop riveted with
stainless rivets.

David Jost
*Every* time I have tried to
> drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
> I have cracked it. I hope [and
> expect] that the Lexan I bought on
> eBay will drill easier around the edges.
> I should learn soon, as I hope to
> start installing windows in a week
> or two.

Don't you have to grind the drill bit so that the cutting edge is 90
degrees ( vertical) to the work. That makes it less aggressive so it
won't pull in and wedge the hole apart. Slow rpm too.

Charles
You can work lexan with regular woodworking tools. You need special blades and drills for acrylic.

The ultimate failure strength of polycarbonate is much higher.

Polycarbonate (lexan) scratches easier. Very easily, in fact, and it's almost impossible to pollish the scratches out.

Bug spray will completely destroy lexan/pc . BEWARE.

On any windows that are safety design features of the boat, I would use nothing less than Lexan.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 11:32 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows


> --- Vince and Mary Ann Chew <vachew@v...
>
> > I was surprised to learn that,
> > for equal thickness, acrylic
> > has slightly greater impact
> > resistance than polycarbonate
>
> If I recall correctly, PB&F
> usually specify Lexan instead
> of Plexiglas. I wonder why?
>
> *Every* time I have tried to
> drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
> I have cracked it. I hope [and
> expect] that the Lexan I bought on
> eBay will drill easier around the edges.
> I should learn soon, as I hope to
> start installing windows in a week
> or two.
>
> I don't really know, but I think
> that more important that 'impact
> resistance', is the quality called
> 'notched impact strength'. [ISO180/1A]
>
> Plexiglas and Lexan have roughly
> similar impact strengths, but Lexan
> has nearly ten times the 'notched
> impact strength'.
>
> Example ISO180/1 A "Izod" test results
> taken from specs from Rohm Plexiglas and
> from GE websites.
>
> Lexan: 12 kJ/m2
> vs.
> Plexiglas: 1.6 kJ/m2
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--- Vince and Mary Ann Chew <vachew@v...

> I was surprised to learn that,
> for equal thickness, acrylic
> has slightly greater impact
> resistance than polycarbonate

If I recall correctly, PB&F
usually specify Lexan instead
of Plexiglas. I wonder why?

*Every* time I have tried to
drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
I have cracked it. I hope [and
expect] that the Lexan I bought on
eBay will drill easier around the edges.
I should learn soon, as I hope to
start installing windows in a week
or two.

I don't really know, but I think
that more important that 'impact
resistance', is the quality called
'notched impact strength'. [ISO180/1A]

Plexiglas and Lexan have roughly
similar impact strengths, but Lexan
has nearly ten times the 'notched
impact strength'.

Example ISO180/1 A "Izod" test results
taken from specs from Rohm Plexiglas and
from GE websites.

Lexan: 12 kJ/m2
vs.
Plexiglas: 1.6 kJ/m2
I bought my window material from:

http://www.lairdplastics.com/contactus/michigan.htm

They sell both acrylic and polycarbonate as well as UHMW and other
materials. They have adhesives for both as well as tools and just about
anything else you might need in the way of plastic. I charged my order on my
credit card, it was cut and shipped the next day and I received it via UPS a
day later. They were great to deal with. There are lots of similar companies
you can find with a Google search on "plastic sheet", "acrylic sheet", etc.
I chose Laird because it was near by.

The following is from Hunter Marine:

"All hull port lights are 7/16" thick polycarbonate sealed in place with Dow
Corning 795. Deck hatches and opening ports Lewmar aluminum framed ocean
series polycarbonate (lexan). Deck port lights are acrylic and also sealed
into a 4" wide embossed flange set in 1" of DC795. Note: the use of acrylic
in the larger deck ports is safer than the use of polycarbonate. They both
are good materials and have similar strengths. The point impact strength of
Lexan (polycarbonate) is 200 times greater than acrylic. While this is good
for bullet proofing it does not indicate the best loading strengths. The
tensile strength of Acrylic is 10,000psi and for Lexan is 9,000psi. The
tensile modulus for acrylic is 400,000psi and Lexan is 345,000psi. Flexural
strength of acrylic Vs Lexan is 15,000psi Vs 13,500psi while the flexural
modulus for acrylic Vs Lexan is 450,000psi Vs 340,000psi. These are results
from G.E. on 1/4" thick material and using the various cataloged test
methods. ASTM D-638 and 790. The thermal coefficient of expansion for both
materials is the same. "

Vince Chew
Where do you all get your Lexan sheets, special ordered at Home Depot or the like???
Thanks,
Ken
-------Original Message-------
From: "welshman@..." <welshman@...>
Sent: 06/26/03 03:29 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In researching window material for Dakota, I was surprised to learn that,
for equal thickness, acrylic such as Plexiglas has slightly greater impact
resistance than polycarbonate (Lexan). Lexan does better on sharp point
impact such as a bullet; however, in the typical boat window thicknesses it
is still not bulletproof. Acrylic does not yellow from UV light and is more
scratch resistant. If it does scratch, there are polishing kits available to
remove the scratch. Scratches in Lexan cannot be removed. Lexan can be
ordered with a scratch resistant coating which greatly increases its cost
(already higher than acrylic).

Like Peter, I am installing fixed side windows in Dakota. It is a narrow
boat, and I intend to use it in the Great lakes and, hopefully someday, in
the sounds and bays around the "Great Loop". With the only hull openings on
the centerline, I would hope that a knock down on her side will not admit
water. The side and aft windows are .236 inch grey tint acrylic while the
forward windows will be clear safety glass. All sink drains and tank vents
originate as near the center as possible. There will be flow through
ventilation via the fore and aft centerline doors.

Vince Chew
On this group a year or 2 back some one, and it might have been you Vince,
put out a link to a plastic company that had glue for plexiglas and lexan.
I have moved through several computers since and lost the link.

My thought to was to cut two panes for whatever window hole and glue a
spacer about 1/4 by 1/4 between them around the outer edge that would seal
the airspace. This would create a double pane window, which we really need
around here. Single pane weeps like a plaintif on divorce court.

If anybody has that link please republish.

HJ



In researching window material for Dakota, I was surprised to learn that,
for equal thickness, acrylic such as Plexiglas has slightly greater impact
resistance than polycarbonate (Lexan). Lexan does better on sharp point
impact such as a bullet; however, in the typical boat window thicknesses it
is still not bulletproof. Acrylic does not yellow from UV light and is more
scratch resistant. If it does scratch, there are polishing kits available to
remove the scratch. Scratches in Lexan cannot be removed. Lexan can be
ordered with a scratch resistant coating which greatly increases its cost
(already higher than acrylic).


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