Re: [bolger] Re: running inlets
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The early reports of the Taki-Tooo disaster cited a surviving fisherman
saying that the skipper turned the boat right, parallel to the seas, which
sounded unlikely to me, since he was an experienced skipper and he wouldn't
have survived that long if he pulled stunts like that. Later the deckhand,
who is probably the most reliable witness, having grown up in the business,
said that a wave slewed the boat around, and the skipper was trying to get
it headed into the waves again when the next wave caught and rolled it,
which seems much more likely. The water on the bar is at least 18',
according to a survey done this week, at the bottom of the minus tide that
morning that would leave at least 16', the damage to the rudders probably
happened when the boat washed up on the beach.
It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but I question the wisdom of
heading out on a morning like that while the tide was still ebbing, I'll bet
the bar was a lot easier just an hour later. Other boats had got out though,
so it must have seemed a reasonable chance to the skipper, and I'll bet he'd
crossed the bar in similar conditions many times before. I can't say he was
stupid to try it again. The pressures of trying to make a living from the
sea lead to taking chances that those of us who go out on the water just for
fun wouldn't think of, but it's a calculated risk, not foolhardiness.
With one exception, none of the victims' bodies found so far were wearing
lifejackets. Some of the survivors managed to grab lifejackets, but not all
of them. The deckhand didn't have one. Four people were trapped in the Taki-
Tooo's cabin when she capsized and they put on lifejackets before trying to
get out. Three of them made it, but the other never got out of the cabin and
was the one victim with a lifejacket on.
The charter boats really ought to make their sports wear lifejackets when
crossing the bar. I don't think it would be bad for business in the long
run. Eleven drowned people from the Taki-Tooo will do a lot more to set
business back!
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The early reports of the Taki-Tooo disaster cited a surviving fisherman
saying that the skipper turned the boat right, parallel to the seas, which
sounded unlikely to me, since he was an experienced skipper and he wouldn't
have survived that long if he pulled stunts like that. Later the deckhand,
who is probably the most reliable witness, having grown up in the business,
said that a wave slewed the boat around, and the skipper was trying to get
it headed into the waves again when the next wave caught and rolled it,
which seems much more likely. The water on the bar is at least 18',
according to a survey done this week, at the bottom of the minus tide that
morning that would leave at least 16', the damage to the rudders probably
happened when the boat washed up on the beach.
It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but I question the wisdom of
heading out on a morning like that while the tide was still ebbing, I'll bet
the bar was a lot easier just an hour later. Other boats had got out though,
so it must have seemed a reasonable chance to the skipper, and I'll bet he'd
crossed the bar in similar conditions many times before. I can't say he was
stupid to try it again. The pressures of trying to make a living from the
sea lead to taking chances that those of us who go out on the water just for
fun wouldn't think of, but it's a calculated risk, not foolhardiness.
With one exception, none of the victims' bodies found so far were wearing
lifejackets. Some of the survivors managed to grab lifejackets, but not all
of them. The deckhand didn't have one. Four people were trapped in the Taki-
Tooo's cabin when she capsized and they put on lifejackets before trying to
get out. Three of them made it, but the other never got out of the cabin and
was the one victim with a lifejacket on.
The charter boats really ought to make their sports wear lifejackets when
crossing the bar. I don't think it would be bad for business in the long
run. Eleven drowned people from the Taki-Tooo will do a lot more to set
business back!
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 11:40:44 -0700, Gary wrote:
> I talked to commercial fisherman friend of mine who lives in Newport, OR,
> south of Tillamook. This is the story he put together from various local
> reports:
> The swell was about 15' and it was low tide which leaves only 15' of water
> on the bar. The skipper waited inside for about an hour thinking about
it.
> He watched another commercial boat go out. They slammed down so hard one
of
> the passengers put his elbow through a window. They continued out and
went
> fishing. Another boat gave up and went back to the marina, where another
> skipper who was planning on going out changed his mind after hearing what
it
> was like. But this guy decided to go for it even though it was low tide
and
> and the ebb was still flowing.
> The first wave he hit was about 10' and not breaking, but so steep the
boat
> came down real hard. For some unknown reason he then made a hard right
turn
> and headed north, throttles full open. My friend thinks he may have been
> heading for deeper water or trying to turn around. Maybe he was just out
of
> control from falling off the first wave. The next wave caught him
sideways
> and rolled the boat over. It rolled twice but he's not sure if that was
on
> one wave or two. The rudders and props were bent, so it must have been
real
> shallow. Since the skipper didn't survive, we'll never know what he was
> thinking. He did have about $700 to gross that day though. If he kept
his
> bows into the waves he might have made it, even though it was a stupid
thing
> to attempt.
> Gary
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is
the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness.
<H. L. Mencken>
I talked to commercial fisherman friend of mine who lives in Newport, OR,
south of Tillamook. This is the story he put together from various local
reports:
The swell was about 15' and it was low tide which leaves only 15' of water
on the bar. The skipper waited inside for about an hour thinking about it.
He watched another commercial boat go out. They slammed down so hard one of
the passengers put his elbow through a window. They continued out and went
fishing. Another boat gave up and went back to the marina, where another
skipper who was planning on going out changed his mind after hearing what it
was like. But this guy decided to go for it even though it was low tide and
and the ebb was still flowing.
The first wave he hit was about 10' and not breaking, but so steep the boat
came down real hard. For some unknown reason he then made a hard right turn
and headed north, throttles full open. My friend thinks he may have been
heading for deeper water or trying to turn around. Maybe he was just out of
control from falling off the first wave. The next wave caught him sideways
and rolled the boat over. It rolled twice but he's not sure if that was on
one wave or two. The rudders and props were bent, so it must have been real
shallow. Since the skipper didn't survive, we'll never know what he was
thinking. He did have about $700 to gross that day though. If he kept his
bows into the waves he might have made it, even though it was a stupid thing
to attempt.
Gary
south of Tillamook. This is the story he put together from various local
reports:
The swell was about 15' and it was low tide which leaves only 15' of water
on the bar. The skipper waited inside for about an hour thinking about it.
He watched another commercial boat go out. They slammed down so hard one of
the passengers put his elbow through a window. They continued out and went
fishing. Another boat gave up and went back to the marina, where another
skipper who was planning on going out changed his mind after hearing what it
was like. But this guy decided to go for it even though it was low tide and
and the ebb was still flowing.
The first wave he hit was about 10' and not breaking, but so steep the boat
came down real hard. For some unknown reason he then made a hard right turn
and headed north, throttles full open. My friend thinks he may have been
heading for deeper water or trying to turn around. Maybe he was just out of
control from falling off the first wave. The next wave caught him sideways
and rolled the boat over. It rolled twice but he's not sure if that was on
one wave or two. The rudders and props were bent, so it must have been real
shallow. Since the skipper didn't survive, we'll never know what he was
thinking. He did have about $700 to gross that day though. If he kept his
bows into the waves he might have made it, even though it was a stupid thing
to attempt.
Gary
--- "GarthAB" <garth@b...> wrote:
to roll in a breaking sea, it
would right itself and come
back like a cork. The Party
Boats, on the other hand,
*especially* with the people
on the open deck, would be much
less safe.
Though I wouldn't want to
experience a boat roll with
a don't look down toilet! ;)
I recall reading about running
breakers, written by L.F.
Herreshof, in The Compleat
Cruiser; but I forget the
details, and will go back and
read it again.
> Tillamook capsizeFWIW, I think if a Dakota was
to roll in a breaking sea, it
would right itself and come
back like a cork. The Party
Boats, on the other hand,
*especially* with the people
on the open deck, would be much
less safe.
Though I wouldn't want to
experience a boat roll with
a don't look down toilet! ;)
I recall reading about running
breakers, written by L.F.
Herreshof, in The Compleat
Cruiser; but I forget the
details, and will go back and
read it again.
The report I read of that Tillamook capsize was that none of the dead
were wearing lifejackets -- and all of the survivors were.
All best,
Garth
were wearing lifejackets -- and all of the survivors were.
All best,
Garth
>They (USCG surf boats on the Oregon Coast) have a motto that is famousThat's been the Life Saving Service's byword since around 1870. They
>or infamous in the Safety profession, "you have to go out, you don't
>have to come back"
*used* to go out in oar-powered boats.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
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They (USCG surf boats on the Oregon Coast) have a motto that is famous
or infamous in the Safety profession, "you have to go out, you don't
have to come back"
HJ
or infamous in the Safety profession, "you have to go out, you don't
have to come back"
HJ
>I crossed the Siuslaw bar years ago in a Coast Guard 36-footer when the seas
>were 15'. I'll bet the coxswain deliberately steered for the rough water to
>make the ride more exciting for us Sea Scouts. <g> It was wet going out, and
>we surfed back in. Lotsa fun! :o) We saw some commercial salmon trollers
>outside, if they wait for perfect weather they'll go broke. The week before,
>a big storm had blown in unexpectedly and two or three sport fishing boats
>foundered on the Siuslaw bar trying to get in. The seas were 30' and that
>36-footer went out and stayed on the bar fishing survivors out of the water
>(didn't get everybody, unfortunately). After experiencing the bar in much
>milder conditions I gained a lot of respect for the Coastguardsmen who
>manned those lifesaving stations. That was back before they were doing all
>the cop work they do today, they wore sailor suits instead of police style
>uniforms and they could still wear salty beards.
>
>
> Message: 22I didn't mean to imply that the use of the drogue was unknown before.
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 19:43:47 -0400
> From: craig o'donnell <dadadata@...>
> Subject: Re: running inlets (was Tennessee and Idaho)
>
>> I think this must have been techniques perfected by
>> the rumrunners during prohibition, who were using the more obscure,
>> less improved inlets.
>
> There's an interesting theory ... (!) I do know that Captain Voss,
> who sailed partway around the world in a Tilikum canoe, wrote of
> using drogues in inlets and surf way back whenever that was - 1880s?
> He writes of demonstrating it to unbelieving spectators in, I think,
> New Zealand.
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
Just that the rumrunners were among those who ran inlets as a matter of
course, in the types of fast, planing or semi-planing powerboats that
the chapter in Chapman's is primarily referring to. It's no secret
that much of the development of the modern fast powerboat was spurred
on by prohibition, and the competition between the rummies and the
coasties as to who had the fastest boat. There are stories about
boatyards building boats side by side, one on order from a rumrunner,
one from the coast guard. Similarly, it follows that much of the
seamanship and ways of handling these types of boats came from the
boatmen who operated them.
Bob
Before you get too homesick for the Tillamook bar, there was a reminder a
couple of weeks ago about how dangerous Oregon bars can be (and I don't mean
the Bay Haven! <g>), a 32' charter fishing boat capsized on the Tillamook
bar, drowning eleven people, including the skipper. :o( Eight folks
survived. Seas were about 13', IIRC, rough, but not bad enough to keep the
commercial boats inside. Nobody was wearing a lifejacket. The charter
skippers said that if they made the sports put on lifejackets to cross the
bar it'd make it look dangerous, and that'd be bad for business! Of course
it _is_ dangerous!
I crossed the Siuslaw bar years ago in a Coast Guard 36-footer when the seas
were 15'. I'll bet the coxswain deliberately steered for the rough water to
make the ride more exciting for us Sea Scouts. <g> It was wet going out, and
we surfed back in. Lotsa fun! :o) We saw some commercial salmon trollers
outside, if they wait for perfect weather they'll go broke. The week before,
a big storm had blown in unexpectedly and two or three sport fishing boats
foundered on the Siuslaw bar trying to get in. The seas were 30' and that
36-footer went out and stayed on the bar fishing survivors out of the water
(didn't get everybody, unfortunately). After experiencing the bar in much
milder conditions I gained a lot of respect for the Coastguardsmen who
manned those lifesaving stations. That was back before they were doing all
the cop work they do today, they wore sailor suits instead of police style
uniforms and they could still wear salty beards.
The rule of thumb on the Oregon coast is to put up the small craft warning
flags when the seas get to 10' or the wind hits 25 knots.
couple of weeks ago about how dangerous Oregon bars can be (and I don't mean
the Bay Haven! <g>), a 32' charter fishing boat capsized on the Tillamook
bar, drowning eleven people, including the skipper. :o( Eight folks
survived. Seas were about 13', IIRC, rough, but not bad enough to keep the
commercial boats inside. Nobody was wearing a lifejacket. The charter
skippers said that if they made the sports put on lifejackets to cross the
bar it'd make it look dangerous, and that'd be bad for business! Of course
it _is_ dangerous!
I crossed the Siuslaw bar years ago in a Coast Guard 36-footer when the seas
were 15'. I'll bet the coxswain deliberately steered for the rough water to
make the ride more exciting for us Sea Scouts. <g> It was wet going out, and
we surfed back in. Lotsa fun! :o) We saw some commercial salmon trollers
outside, if they wait for perfect weather they'll go broke. The week before,
a big storm had blown in unexpectedly and two or three sport fishing boats
foundered on the Siuslaw bar trying to get in. The seas were 30' and that
36-footer went out and stayed on the bar fishing survivors out of the water
(didn't get everybody, unfortunately). After experiencing the bar in much
milder conditions I gained a lot of respect for the Coastguardsmen who
manned those lifesaving stations. That was back before they were doing all
the cop work they do today, they wore sailor suits instead of police style
uniforms and they could still wear salty beards.
The rule of thumb on the Oregon coast is to put up the small craft warning
flags when the seas get to 10' or the wind hits 25 knots.
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:08:59 -0000, Doug wrote:
> I cannot imagine running any inlet on the Oregon coast - and particularly
the Columbia bar - in any Bolger sharpie. 'Westcoast' improvements would
not be enough.
> ...
> 30 years ago it was common to see 20ft charter dories with 12hp Johnsons
going out of Garibaldi. The motors are bigger these days but the hulls
haven't changed much.
>
> Here in Georgia it is rare to see any boat with more than 18 inches of
freeboard. I've even seen jonboats going out of the marinas on the
gulfcoast. Six foot seas are a frightening thing here. That would be a
calm day on the Columbia bar.
>
> Darnit!! Y'all got me missing the smell of sawmills, dungeness crab and
smoked chinook. Oh well, once every September.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
He got hold of the red meat of the language and turned it into hamburgers.
<Richard Gordon on Ernest Hemingway>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <prototype@c...> wrote:
improvements would not be enough.
Didn't Bolger design a boat called"Inlet Runner"? Maybe I'm mistaken
with the name but I do recall seeing a design of his which was about
22' and showed his boxkeel up front to give the"traditional" sharpie
hull a whole lot more bouyancy up forward.
I've never run an inlet with breaking waves but from what I've been
able to understand from various texts is that as a wave begins to
rise from behind a boat,the stern is pushed up,the stem pushed down,
and forward acceleration increased.Most boats will then begin to bury
their stem,(acting like plows) and this will slow the bow down while
the wave continues to accelrate the stern.If the wave is steep enough
the boat will pitchpole otherwise it gets pushed sideways and
broaches as the stern attempts to pass the bow........
Part of the solution is to match boat speed with wave speed(when
possible) but also to ensure that the hull has plenty of forward
reserve bouyancy.That is,it helps prevent the bow from being pushed
too deep into the water(thus slowing it down) and instead keeps it
running cleanly and lightly through the water.
Having a relatively light-weight boat with enough horses off the
stern also seamed to be a feature of "Inlet Runner".
Anyhow, thats my .02 cents.Perhaps someone with a better memory can
shed further light on this Bolger design?
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who never ran an inlet but have shot the Lachine Rapids
in several types of boat,including a rubber tube,from along the
shores of the St.Lawrence............
> I cannot imagine running any inlet on the Oregon coast - andparticularly the Columbia bar - in any Bolger sharpie. 'Westcoast'
improvements would not be enough.
Didn't Bolger design a boat called"Inlet Runner"? Maybe I'm mistaken
with the name but I do recall seeing a design of his which was about
22' and showed his boxkeel up front to give the"traditional" sharpie
hull a whole lot more bouyancy up forward.
I've never run an inlet with breaking waves but from what I've been
able to understand from various texts is that as a wave begins to
rise from behind a boat,the stern is pushed up,the stem pushed down,
and forward acceleration increased.Most boats will then begin to bury
their stem,(acting like plows) and this will slow the bow down while
the wave continues to accelrate the stern.If the wave is steep enough
the boat will pitchpole otherwise it gets pushed sideways and
broaches as the stern attempts to pass the bow........
Part of the solution is to match boat speed with wave speed(when
possible) but also to ensure that the hull has plenty of forward
reserve bouyancy.That is,it helps prevent the bow from being pushed
too deep into the water(thus slowing it down) and instead keeps it
running cleanly and lightly through the water.
Having a relatively light-weight boat with enough horses off the
stern also seamed to be a feature of "Inlet Runner".
Anyhow, thats my .02 cents.Perhaps someone with a better memory can
shed further light on this Bolger design?
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who never ran an inlet but have shot the Lachine Rapids
in several types of boat,including a rubber tube,from along the
shores of the St.Lawrence............
>
>I think this must have been techniques perfected byThere's an interesting theory ... (!) I do know that Captain Voss,
>the rumrunners during prohibition, who were using the more obscure,
>less improved inlets.
who sailed partway around the world in a Tilikum canoe, wrote of
using drogues in inlets and surf way back whenever that was - 1880s?
He writes of demonstrating it to unbelieving spectators in, I think,
New Zealand.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
I cannot imagine running any inlet on the Oregon coast - and particularly the Columbia bar - in any Bolger sharpie. 'Westcoast' improvements would not be enough.
Not to disregard the qualities of Bolger designs, the unique hull designs of the pacific northwest coast were developed specifically for conditions for which sharpies were never intended. Breaking waves are a case in point. It is a rare occasion when there are no breakers in these inlets.
30 years ago it was common to see 20ft charter dories with 12hp Johnsons going out of Garibaldi. The motors are bigger these days but the hulls haven't changed much.
Here in Georgia it is rare to see any boat with more than 18 inches of freeboard. I've even seen jonboats going out of the marinas on the gulfcoast. Six foot seas are a frightening thing here. That would be a calm day on the Columbia bar.
Darnit!! Y'all got me missing the smell of sawmills, dungeness crab and smoked chinook. Oh well, once every September.
Doug
Not to disregard the qualities of Bolger designs, the unique hull designs of the pacific northwest coast were developed specifically for conditions for which sharpies were never intended. Breaking waves are a case in point. It is a rare occasion when there are no breakers in these inlets.
30 years ago it was common to see 20ft charter dories with 12hp Johnsons going out of Garibaldi. The motors are bigger these days but the hulls haven't changed much.
Here in Georgia it is rare to see any boat with more than 18 inches of freeboard. I've even seen jonboats going out of the marinas on the gulfcoast. Six foot seas are a frightening thing here. That would be a calm day on the Columbia bar.
Darnit!! Y'all got me missing the smell of sawmills, dungeness crab and smoked chinook. Oh well, once every September.
Doug
> On the West coast, the Coast Guard will
> frequently close the entrances and just
> make you wait.
>
> When I asked PB&F to recommend a boat
> for 'crossing the Columbia bar', they/she
> suggested I commission them to upgraded Dakota,
> with an inboard Deutz Diesel, Sonic outdrive,
> and other unmentioned 'Westcoast' improvements.
--- Bob Johnson <dredbob@t...> wrote:
frequently close the entrances and just
make you wait.
When I asked PB&F to recommend a boat
for 'crossing the Columbia bar', they/she
suggested I commission them to upgraded Dakota,
with an inboard Deutz Diesel, Sonic outdrive,
and other unmentioned 'Westcoast' improvements.
> just say don't run breaking inlets,On the West coast, the Coast Guard will
frequently close the entrances and just
make you wait.
When I asked PB&F to recommend a boat
for 'crossing the Columbia bar', they/she
suggested I commission them to upgraded Dakota,
with an inboard Deutz Diesel, Sonic outdrive,
and other unmentioned 'Westcoast' improvements.
> Message: 12I don't think I want to run any inlet in bad conditions in any kind of
> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 11:38:36 -0400
> From: craig o'donnell <dadadata@...>
> Subject: Re: TENNESSEE and IDAHO
>
> Well, exactly, but I still would not want to run New Jersey or North
> Carolina inlets in bad conditions with one of these!
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
boat!
There is some fascinating information on running inlets in early
editions of Chapman's. (Piloting, Seamanship and Small Boat Handling) I
think I have one from around 1956 and the info is still in there.
Later versions (70's on) seem to have lost this and newer ones just say
don't run breaking inlets, as seems to be the modern way, don't do any
thing remotely risky, just call the coast guard and let us rescue you.
But the info in the earlier Chapman's assumed that sometimes you were
going to get caught out and you needed to know how to get back in. All
kinds of stuff about using drogues to prevent broaching, and how to
pick a wave, etc. I think this must have been techniques perfected by
the rumrunners during prohibition, who were using the more obscure,
less improved inlets.
Anyway, it's pretty eye opening reading.
Bob