[bolger] Re: Boat Show Time
BO>I can't imagine anyone saying that NEW sailboats are cheap. Just a few
BO>examples:
BO>Beneteau Oceanis 36-126K USD "Sailaway" (means loaded, incl. genset, A/C)
BO>Hunter 340-114K reasonably equipped, no air
Imagine my surprise! ;) Same Beneteau prices as here!! ;-) What
prompted my query was a series of violently negative replies on the
Trailer Sailor board in response to a comment of mine that
=professionally built= wooden boats of modern design (NI Sharpies,
blush) could be built to a =higher= standard for the =same= money as an
equivalent series-production GRP, and with reasonable maintenance would
last as long. THis of course is anathema in a GRP-based group, and I
shouldn't have been baiting them, I suppose. But, I'm a sucker for lost
causes and can't resist the occasional spot of mischief or gaggle of
high noses (as in "suitable for getting up"). The super-cheap NEW GRP
boat typical of the market in the US arose like a pearly luminescent
chimera from the fog of angst in the responses (did you know even the
best homebuilt wooden boats rot and crumble at the speed of a vampire
exposed to sunlight?). What a pity the super-cheap GRP turns out to be
a mirage after all...
Thank you Lundy's for the horse's mouth info.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>examples:
BO>Beneteau Oceanis 36-126K USD "Sailaway" (means loaded, incl. genset, A/C)
BO>Hunter 340-114K reasonably equipped, no air
Imagine my surprise! ;) Same Beneteau prices as here!! ;-) What
prompted my query was a series of violently negative replies on the
Trailer Sailor board in response to a comment of mine that
=professionally built= wooden boats of modern design (NI Sharpies,
blush) could be built to a =higher= standard for the =same= money as an
equivalent series-production GRP, and with reasonable maintenance would
last as long. THis of course is anathema in a GRP-based group, and I
shouldn't have been baiting them, I suppose. But, I'm a sucker for lost
causes and can't resist the occasional spot of mischief or gaggle of
high noses (as in "suitable for getting up"). The super-cheap NEW GRP
boat typical of the market in the US arose like a pearly luminescent
chimera from the fog of angst in the responses (did you know even the
best homebuilt wooden boats rot and crumble at the speed of a vampire
exposed to sunlight?). What a pity the super-cheap GRP turns out to be
a mirage after all...
Thank you Lundy's for the horse's mouth info.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>tjfatche-@...wrote:
BO>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2937
BO>> BO>Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to the
BO>Fiberglass
BO>> snip
BO>> Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
BO>> on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
BO>> in the US.
BO>snip
BO>I don't know about new, but if you look at: www.wantadvertiser.com you
BO>can get some idea of what used sailboats can be had for in this area
BO>(Boston, MA, USA).
Thank you kindly for that. After a quick scrutiny, prices are about
what I would expect :) reelly reelly cheep GRPs are also reelly reelly
old and, no doubt, osmosing their way to a sad pile of glass fibres. As
far as I can tell, we have a general price equivalence between here and
there in 2nd hand craft, which is what I remember from the days when i
used to by mainstream US boating mags. (Unless I'm grossly
overestimating the bmu in terms of US dollars).
The implication is an equivalence in cost of new boats (in bmu's), which
is precidsely thepoint I was making in another place. Methinks many
GRPs suspect they've been sold a pup, and so bristle at any overt
suggestion that their suspicion is correct.
Interestingly, so soon after so many indicating what a nightmare
ply/epoxy boat maintenance is, the same messageboard is now awash with
worries about what to do to maintain or repair gelcoats :)
Tim & FT2 in cynical cycle
BO>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2937
BO>> BO>Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to the
BO>Fiberglass
BO>> snip
BO>> Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
BO>> on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
BO>> in the US.
BO>snip
BO>I don't know about new, but if you look at: www.wantadvertiser.com you
BO>can get some idea of what used sailboats can be had for in this area
BO>(Boston, MA, USA).
Thank you kindly for that. After a quick scrutiny, prices are about
what I would expect :) reelly reelly cheep GRPs are also reelly reelly
old and, no doubt, osmosing their way to a sad pile of glass fibres. As
far as I can tell, we have a general price equivalence between here and
there in 2nd hand craft, which is what I remember from the days when i
used to by mainstream US boating mags. (Unless I'm grossly
overestimating the bmu in terms of US dollars).
The implication is an equivalence in cost of new boats (in bmu's), which
is precidsely thepoint I was making in another place. Methinks many
GRPs suspect they've been sold a pup, and so bristle at any overt
suggestion that their suspicion is correct.
Interestingly, so soon after so many indicating what a nightmare
ply/epoxy boat maintenance is, the same messageboard is now awash with
worries about what to do to maintain or repair gelcoats :)
Tim & FT2 in cynical cycle
BO>Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to the Fiberglass
BO>Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.
Dear Lundy's
Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
in the US. So cheap, that I am assured at even greater length that a
small professional shop cannot possibly make modern construction
wood-epoxy equivalents for anything under 4x the f/g boat price. Indeed,
I am assured, the f/g boats, =new= even, are SO cheap that you can't
even build a decent homebuilt craft for the price.
In fact, the f/g boats are reputedly so cheap, $20K US vs at least $50K
US for an equivalent here, that it staggers me that no-one has thought
to import the US boats and wipe out the local GRP industry. I can't
help wondering why....could it be that my informants and assurers are,
as we say here, up a wattle?
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.
Dear Lundy's
Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
in the US. So cheap, that I am assured at even greater length that a
small professional shop cannot possibly make modern construction
wood-epoxy equivalents for anything under 4x the f/g boat price. Indeed,
I am assured, the f/g boats, =new= even, are SO cheap that you can't
even build a decent homebuilt craft for the price.
In fact, the f/g boats are reputedly so cheap, $20K US vs at least $50K
US for an equivalent here, that it staggers me that no-one has thought
to import the US boats and wipe out the local GRP industry. I can't
help wondering why....could it be that my informants and assurers are,
as we say here, up a wattle?
Tim & Flying Tadpole
Come to Annapolis, 1st or 2nd weekend in Oct. One weekend it's all sail and the
next, it's all power. Clyde
"Robert N. Lundy" wrote:
next, it's all power. Clyde
"Robert N. Lundy" wrote:
> Actually Tim, I've found that Boat Prices are the second most ludicrous
> thing you can see at Boat Shows-the number 1 item is, drum roll here, the 25
> year boat loan.
>
> I can't imagine anyone saying that NEW sailboats are cheap. Just a few
> examples:
>
> Beneteau Oceanis 36-126K USD "Sailaway" (means loaded, incl. genset, A/C)
> Hunter 340-114K reasonably equipped, no air
>
> I only give these two examples, as these two along with Catalina dominate
> the US market. In fact, there is almost no US market for new sailboats.
> The Stictly Sail portion of the Miami Boat Show is smaller in area and
> "stuff" than say, any small inland summer boat show.
>
> Now, the real interesting stuff is being done in Catamarans (Cheapest found
> was around 112K USD, a 32 footer). There were probably as many catamaran
> models on show as monohulls and the average price was around 300K, with a
> significant number of show boats over 500K. Cheap they ain't.
>
> I didn't take any pictures, because I left my Digital camera in a briefcase
> while I was over at the Sailboat part of the show. I was really
> disappointed in the sailboat show-there was NO new thinking on show (Except
> for one bizarre custom boat w/ hot tub for around 2.5 million USD), unless
> you count a trend noticed where sailboats are getting as wide as powerboats
> (to save ever rising slip rental fees).
>
> Tired and footsore in Florida,
>
> Robert & Amy Lundy
> St. Petersburg, fla.
>robert@...
>amy@...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:tjfatchen@...[mailto:tjfatchen@...]
> > Sent: February 18, 2000 6:04 AM
> > To:bolger@egroups.com
> > Subject: [bolger] Boat Show Time
> >
> >
> > BO>Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to the Fiberglass
> > BO>Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.
> >
> > Dear Lundy's
> >
> > Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
> > on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
> > in the US. So cheap, that I am assured at even greater length that a
> > small professional shop cannot possibly make modern construction
> > wood-epoxy equivalents for anything under 4x the f/g boat price. Indeed,
> > I am assured, the f/g boats, =new= even, are SO cheap that you can't
> > even build a decent homebuilt craft for the price.
> >
> > In fact, the f/g boats are reputedly so cheap, $20K US vs at least $50K
> > US for an equivalent here, that it staggers me that no-one has thought
> > to import the US boats and wipe out the local GRP industry. I can't
> > help wondering why....could it be that my informants and assurers are,
> > as we say here, up a wattle?
> >
> > Tim & Flying Tadpole
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
> > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
> > no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
> > credit youdeserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
> >http://click.egroups.com/1/929/5/_/3457/_/950836752/
> >
> > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> > --http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates
> as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
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>
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> --http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
Actually Tim, I've found that Boat Prices are the second most ludicrous
thing you can see at Boat Shows-the number 1 item is, drum roll here, the 25
year boat loan.
I can't imagine anyone saying that NEW sailboats are cheap. Just a few
examples:
Beneteau Oceanis 36-126K USD "Sailaway" (means loaded, incl. genset, A/C)
Hunter 340-114K reasonably equipped, no air
I only give these two examples, as these two along with Catalina dominate
the US market. In fact, there is almost no US market for new sailboats.
The Stictly Sail portion of the Miami Boat Show is smaller in area and
"stuff" than say, any small inland summer boat show.
Now, the real interesting stuff is being done in Catamarans (Cheapest found
was around 112K USD, a 32 footer). There were probably as many catamaran
models on show as monohulls and the average price was around 300K, with a
significant number of show boats over 500K. Cheap they ain't.
I didn't take any pictures, because I left my Digital camera in a briefcase
while I was over at the Sailboat part of the show. I was really
disappointed in the sailboat show-there was NO new thinking on show (Except
for one bizarre custom boat w/ hot tub for around 2.5 million USD), unless
you count a trend noticed where sailboats are getting as wide as powerboats
(to save ever rising slip rental fees).
Tired and footsore in Florida,
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
thing you can see at Boat Shows-the number 1 item is, drum roll here, the 25
year boat loan.
I can't imagine anyone saying that NEW sailboats are cheap. Just a few
examples:
Beneteau Oceanis 36-126K USD "Sailaway" (means loaded, incl. genset, A/C)
Hunter 340-114K reasonably equipped, no air
I only give these two examples, as these two along with Catalina dominate
the US market. In fact, there is almost no US market for new sailboats.
The Stictly Sail portion of the Miami Boat Show is smaller in area and
"stuff" than say, any small inland summer boat show.
Now, the real interesting stuff is being done in Catamarans (Cheapest found
was around 112K USD, a 32 footer). There were probably as many catamaran
models on show as monohulls and the average price was around 300K, with a
significant number of show boats over 500K. Cheap they ain't.
I didn't take any pictures, because I left my Digital camera in a briefcase
while I was over at the Sailboat part of the show. I was really
disappointed in the sailboat show-there was NO new thinking on show (Except
for one bizarre custom boat w/ hot tub for around 2.5 million USD), unless
you count a trend noticed where sailboats are getting as wide as powerboats
(to save ever rising slip rental fees).
Tired and footsore in Florida,
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
> -----Original Message-----
> From:tjfatchen@...[mailto:tjfatchen@...]
> Sent: February 18, 2000 6:04 AM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Boat Show Time
>
>
> BO>Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to the Fiberglass
> BO>Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.
>
> Dear Lundy's
>
> Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
> on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
> in the US. So cheap, that I am assured at even greater length that a
> small professional shop cannot possibly make modern construction
> wood-epoxy equivalents for anything under 4x the f/g boat price. Indeed,
> I am assured, the f/g boats, =new= even, are SO cheap that you can't
> even build a decent homebuilt craft for the price.
>
> In fact, the f/g boats are reputedly so cheap, $20K US vs at least $50K
> US for an equivalent here, that it staggers me that no-one has thought
> to import the US boats and wipe out the local GRP industry. I can't
> help wondering why....could it be that my informants and assurers are,
> as we say here, up a wattle?
>
> Tim & Flying Tadpole
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
> no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
> credit youdeserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
>http://click.egroups.com/1/929/5/_/3457/_/950836752/
>
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> --http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
>
>
It's the used fg boats that are so cheap. After all, clorox bottles
don't rot, so the supply is large.
The boats seem to outlast their owners interest by a factor of 10.
DGO
tjfatche-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2937
don't rot, so the supply is large.
The boats seem to outlast their owners interest by a factor of 10.
DGO
tjfatche-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2937
> BO>Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to theFiberglass
> BO>Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.Indeed,
>
> Dear Lundy's
>
> Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
> on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
> in the US. So cheap, that I am assured at even greater length that a
> small professional shop cannot possibly make modern construction
> wood-epoxy equivalents for anything under 4x the f/g boat price.
> I am assured, the f/g boats, =new= even, are SO cheap that you can't$50K
> even build a decent homebuilt craft for the price.
>
> In fact, the f/g boats are reputedly so cheap, $20K US vs at least
> US for an equivalent here, that it staggers me that no-one has thought
> to import the US boats and wipe out the local GRP industry. I can't
> help wondering why....could it be that my informants and assurers are,
> as we say here, up a wattle?
>
> Tim & Flying Tadpole
>
>
> Asand
> far as I can tell, we have a general price equivalence between here
> there in 2nd hand craft, which is what I remember from the days when iMy impression from scanning ads on the web is that from my point of
view, Connecticut, USA, the boats listed in Nova Scotia are good value
if you can view the time to prepare the boat for, and make the trip
home as vacation time well spent and not an additional expense racked
up against first cost. Of course, you are looking at a 250mile North
Atlantic passage, and passage through US Customs (fraught with reefs of
forms and red tape).
Peter
In a message dated 2/18/2000 9:27:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dhodges@...writes:
<< I visited Robb White in his shop a few miles noth of Tallahassee last
year... >>
Don - Where is his shop? Once in a while I am in that area and would be
interested in stopping there ( without being a pest I hope) Steve Anderson (
landorval)
dhodges@...writes:
<< I visited Robb White in his shop a few miles noth of Tallahassee last
year... >>
Don - Where is his shop? Once in a while I am in that area and would be
interested in stopping there ( without being a pest I hope) Steve Anderson (
landorval)
I visited Robb White in his shop a few miles noth of Tallahassee last
year... a genuine character, just like his writings in MAIB and Woodenboat.
He said he sells most of his hand-built glued-lapstrake small craft to
Europeans - the US market just won't support the prices necessary to recover
the skilled labor (artist?) cost in these little jewels. He wasn't quoting
me a price, but I believe he said he charged $10,000 - $16,000 for his
peapods and daysailers, 10 to 16 feet or so, ordered in advance. Most boats
go to the Port of Savannah, where shipping agents containerize them for
shipment to customers in Germany, Netherlands, etc.
I encouraged Robb to market his life story for a movie; I think it would
find a niche like "Ulie's Gold".
Don Hodges
dhodges@...
From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
year... a genuine character, just like his writings in MAIB and Woodenboat.
He said he sells most of his hand-built glued-lapstrake small craft to
Europeans - the US market just won't support the prices necessary to recover
the skilled labor (artist?) cost in these little jewels. He wasn't quoting
me a price, but I believe he said he charged $10,000 - $16,000 for his
peapods and daysailers, 10 to 16 feet or so, ordered in advance. Most boats
go to the Port of Savannah, where shipping agents containerize them for
shipment to customers in Germany, Netherlands, etc.
I encouraged Robb to market his life story for a movie; I think it would
find a niche like "Ulie's Gold".
Don Hodges
dhodges@...
From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
> Felt much better after attending the wonderful Maine Boat Builders Show
> last March, tho my favorite boat was a Whitehall with asking price
> $10k. (Are Whitehalls lapstrake?) About half the boats were wood. Saw a
> micro or lm under a tarp (not part of show) too. Wooden, caulked seam
> Rozinante looked smooth as glass at anything over 2 feet away. Restored
> Hereshoff 12.5, a guy making a real canvas covered canoe, etc, etc,
> etc.
>
>
tjfatche-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2937
I don't know about new, but if you look at: www.wantadvertiser.com you
can get some idea of what used sailboats can be had for in this area
(Boston, MA, USA).
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2937
> BO>Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to theFiberglass
> snipsnip
> Please take =lots= of notes. I have been told, at great great length,
> on another messageboard, how spectacularly cheap the f/g sailboats are
> in the US.
I don't know about new, but if you look at: www.wantadvertiser.com you
can get some idea of what used sailboats can be had for in this area
(Boston, MA, USA).
"robert n. lundy" <rober-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2931
overconsumption. THere were one or two things that were just
overspending, and we did find a local boat supplier who was pleasant to
talk to and had one or two reasonable items (wish I could remember
their outfit's name), but on the whole it was wall to wall
overcompensation (I'm not going to say for what). Overspending:
something like $2500 or $3000 (haven't calibrated lately, but I think
that's around 1.3 or 1.5 kbmu) for an Optimist pram. Weird thing was
they had an 18ft (approx) foil borne tri for only twice that. Acres of
polyester and gel coat, and really ugly power boats and totally
conformist sailboats (how do you tell which one is yours?).
Felt much better after attending the wonderful Maine Boat Builders Show
last March, tho my favorite boat was a Whitehall with asking price
$10k. (Are Whitehalls lapstrake?) About half the boats were wood. Saw a
micro or lm under a tarp (not part of show) too. Wooden, caulked seam
Rozinante looked smooth as glass at anything over 2 feet away. Restored
Hereshoff 12.5, a guy making a real canvas covered canoe, etc, etc,
etc.
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2931
> Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to the FiberglassI went to the Boston boat show last year. Totally disgusting
> Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.
>
>
overconsumption. THere were one or two things that were just
overspending, and we did find a local boat supplier who was pleasant to
talk to and had one or two reasonable items (wish I could remember
their outfit's name), but on the whole it was wall to wall
overcompensation (I'm not going to say for what). Overspending:
something like $2500 or $3000 (haven't calibrated lately, but I think
that's around 1.3 or 1.5 kbmu) for an Optimist pram. Weird thing was
they had an 18ft (approx) foil borne tri for only twice that. Acres of
polyester and gel coat, and really ugly power boats and totally
conformist sailboats (how do you tell which one is yours?).
Felt much better after attending the wonderful Maine Boat Builders Show
last March, tho my favorite boat was a Whitehall with asking price
$10k. (Are Whitehalls lapstrake?) About half the boats were wood. Saw a
micro or lm under a tarp (not part of show) too. Wooden, caulked seam
Rozinante looked smooth as glass at anything over 2 feet away. Restored
Hereshoff 12.5, a guy making a real canvas covered canoe, etc, etc,
etc.
Well, I'm off that Absolute Mecca and World Shrine to the Fiberglass
Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.
I'm carrying my Digital Camera and will see if there is anything worth
sharing with the list. Maybe pictures of the "Super Discounted show prices"
will keep us all building faster and faster as we contemplate an eternity of
debt entailed by one of these modern monsters.
On a truly cpaitalistic note: at last year's show, I noted at least two
dinghies and several other items of gear that could be purchased at a LOWER
price in my local store. A bit of digging discovered that because its the
Miami Boat show, people who can't buy a particular item in their locale show
up and assume the hype is real about these being the best prices on the
planet.
Never, ever, ever trust anyone who sells boats or boat gear. I'll be
working in the Alliance Inflatables booth this year-I'll practice lies on
the way down.
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
Production Yacht, The Miami International Boat Show.
I'm carrying my Digital Camera and will see if there is anything worth
sharing with the list. Maybe pictures of the "Super Discounted show prices"
will keep us all building faster and faster as we contemplate an eternity of
debt entailed by one of these modern monsters.
On a truly cpaitalistic note: at last year's show, I noted at least two
dinghies and several other items of gear that could be purchased at a LOWER
price in my local store. A bit of digging discovered that because its the
Miami Boat show, people who can't buy a particular item in their locale show
up and assume the hype is real about these being the best prices on the
planet.
Never, ever, ever trust anyone who sells boats or boat gear. I'll be
working in the Alliance Inflatables booth this year-I'll practice lies on
the way down.
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...