Re: [bolger] Manatee
Colin
I finally got it scanned and converted to text plus jpegs. Would you
like me to email it to you direct.
HJ
sae140 wrote:
I finally got it scanned and converted to text plus jpegs. Would you
like me to email it to you direct.
HJ
sae140 wrote:
>Would anyone with a copy of "Different Boats" be willing
>to let me have a readable scan or perhaps a photocopy of
>Manatee ?
>
>Will gladly refund expenses, and/or reciprocate with help
>from 'the other side of the pond'.
>
>Thanks, Colin
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "robert pyfrom" <neetra@c...> wrote:
addressed to someone else ?
Colin
> BTW, Thanks for taking care of my daughter's family inMuch scratching of the head .... guess this must be
> London last week.
> Comboat
addressed to someone else ?
Colin
> > Would anyone with a copy of "Different Boats" be willingNobody panic. I'll try to do this today.
> > to let me have a readable scan or perhaps a photocopy of
> > Manatee ?
I took my copy to 3 different places, and they couldn't blow them up to
readable size. If no-one else has been able to help, how about if I just
send you my copy. After all, all sailor's are honest and I'm sure you'll
return the book. BTW, Thanks for taking care of my daughter's family in
London last week.
Comboat
readable size. If no-one else has been able to help, how about if I just
send you my copy. After all, all sailor's are honest and I'm sure you'll
return the book. BTW, Thanks for taking care of my daughter's family in
London last week.
Comboat
----- Original Message -----
From: "sae140" <SAE140@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:08 AM
Subject: [bolger] Manatee
> Would anyone with a copy of "Different Boats" be willing
> to let me have a readable scan or perhaps a photocopy of
> Manatee ?
>
> Will gladly refund expenses, and/or reciprocate with help
> from 'the other side of the pond'.
>
> Thanks, Colin
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Colin--Send me a mailing address and I will send you a Xerox copy of the
Different Boats chapter.
John T
Different Boats chapter.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "sae140" <SAE140@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:08 AM
Subject: [bolger] Manatee
> Would anyone with a copy of "Different Boats" be willing
> to let me have a readable scan or perhaps a photocopy of
> Manatee ?
>
> Will gladly refund expenses, and/or reciprocate with help
> from 'the other side of the pond'.
>
> Thanks, Colin
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/2005
>
>
Would anyone with a copy of "Different Boats" be willing
to let me have a readable scan or perhaps a photocopy of
Manatee ?
Will gladly refund expenses, and/or reciprocate with help
from 'the other side of the pond'.
Thanks, Colin
to let me have a readable scan or perhaps a photocopy of
Manatee ?
Will gladly refund expenses, and/or reciprocate with help
from 'the other side of the pond'.
Thanks, Colin
why not rig the Birdwatcher as a
I got to try that on my Santana 27 when the rudder departed in a 30
knot blow. I tried a spinnaker pole & floor board rudder over the
stern until the pole bent like a soda straw. Then I was caught
between the shipping lanes and an island. I could get the boat to
swap ends by reving the engine and pulling hard on the main sheet to
a double reefed main. That was it. So, I sailed back and forth over
a 4 miles course until the USCG came and towed me home.
I have sailed the boat with sheet to tiller self steering, but,
again, a rudder was necessary.
So I would opt for a rudder.
Reed
> canoe yawl (or schooner), delete the rudder entirely (perhapsHi Sue,
> replacing it with a skeg?), and steer the boat with the sails,
> a la _Yakaboo_ in _Alone In The Carribean_? (Or, more recently,
> as sailboards do?) In a pinch, you could stick an oar out the
> starboard oarlock, but I don't think that _Yakaboo_ needed to
> do so through her entire cruise.
>
I got to try that on my Santana 27 when the rudder departed in a 30
knot blow. I tried a spinnaker pole & floor board rudder over the
stern until the pole bent like a soda straw. Then I was caught
between the shipping lanes and an island. I could get the boat to
swap ends by reving the engine and pulling hard on the main sheet to
a double reefed main. That was it. So, I sailed back and forth over
a 4 miles course until the USCG came and towed me home.
I have sailed the boat with sheet to tiller self steering, but,
again, a rudder was necessary.
So I would opt for a rudder.
Reed
Peter, you are correct I did really want a cabin boat. Thats why I
love the birdwatcher type of boats so much, lots of space for a short
length. I did however mention the Light Schooner in my origanal
posting and Summer Ease is also great boat, fore sure. I really like
the v bottom up forward bet it improves performance and any pounding
problems.
Andy
Nova Scotia
Canada
love the birdwatcher type of boats so much, lots of space for a short
length. I did however mention the Light Schooner in my origanal
posting and Summer Ease is also great boat, fore sure. I really like
the v bottom up forward bet it improves performance and any pounding
problems.
Andy
Nova Scotia
Canada
>
> This was a posting I had second thoughts about after hitting
> the "send" key. I took a look at the pics of Summer Ease in the
> Bolger2 files and decided that 1) you probably really wanted a cabin
> boat and 2) she is really more of a non-pareil sharpie than a Presto
> model.
> Anyway, Summer Ease looks like a great boat, if you want a large and
> pretty daysailor.
>
> Peter
Thankyou for the drawing of Alert.......I think with the chinese gaff
rig, she is one of the most handsome boats Bolger has designed.
There is a picture of her with the squarish house added in an issue
of Wooden Boat in a Bolger article. To my mind not overdone and
looked very practical. But then I am accustomed to the outrageous
Navigator.
DonB
rig, she is one of the most handsome boats Bolger has designed.
There is a picture of her with the squarish house added in an issue
of Wooden Boat in a Bolger article. To my mind not overdone and
looked very practical. But then I am accustomed to the outrageous
Navigator.
DonB
> Alert (ex Manatee) is not like Black Skimmer, in spite ofChinese
> appearances. I have just loaded drawings of the cat yawl and
> gaff rig drawings of Alert onto the Bolger2 Files section (findthem
> As I recall that Tony Groves had to modify his BirdwatcherHmm, that's a good idea -- why not rig the Birdwatcher as a
> rudder/linkage. Before he did the rudder steered him.
canoe yawl (or schooner), delete the rudder entirely (perhaps
replacing it with a skeg?), and steer the boat with the sails,
a la _Yakaboo_ in _Alone In The Carribean_? (Or, more recently,
as sailboards do?) In a pinch, you could stick an oar out the
starboard oarlock, but I don't think that _Yakaboo_ needed to
do so through her entire cruise.
-- Sue --
(unsure whether the skeg would help or hurt in this case)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
--- In bolger@y..., "recree8" <arvent@h...> wrote:
That's not THE Birdwatcher at all...but a birdwatcher "type" with an
opening that runs the length of the cabin.
As I recall that Tony Groves had to modify his Birdwatcher
rudder/linkage. Before he did the rudder steered him.
Reed
> When I look at the Birdwatcher folder in the file section I see aHi Nels,
> square sterned version #640. Is that perhaps a re-design of the
> original or what? Seems to have a rather "normal" rudder. Is anyone
> aware of where one could find more information on it?
That's not THE Birdwatcher at all...but a birdwatcher "type" with an
opening that runs the length of the cabin.
As I recall that Tony Groves had to modify his Birdwatcher
rudder/linkage. Before he did the rudder steered him.
Reed
When I look at the Birdwatcher folder in the file section I see a
square sterned version #640. Is that perhaps a re-design of the
original or what? Seems to have a rather "normal" rudder. Is anyone
aware of where one could find more information on it?
Thanks, Nels (Forecsting -25 here tonight iceboating anyone?)
square sterned version #640. Is that perhaps a re-design of the
original or what? Seems to have a rather "normal" rudder. Is anyone
aware of where one could find more information on it?
Thanks, Nels (Forecsting -25 here tonight iceboating anyone?)
--- In bolger@y..., "porcupinefysh" <porcupine@d...> wrote:
> Sue, et al:
>
> I also really like Birdwatcher's looks and concept, but put off by
> all the gear attached to the rudder. Actually, I would have built
her
> if not for that steering system. It is indeed complicated and
> I did have a look through theAndy,
> different groups but did not see a reference to Summer Ease or
> Presto
> in any of the file or photo sections, it was a quick look though.
This was a posting I had second thoughts about after hitting
the "send" key. I took a look at the pics of Summer Ease in the
Bolger2 files and decided that 1) you probably really wanted a cabin
boat and 2) she is really more of a non-pareil sharpie than a Presto
model.
Presto was a design by Commodore Ralph (?) Monroe from maybe the
1920's. He had experimented with the Egret sharpie and tried to get
some of the same virtues in a larger boat, especially very shoal
draft. Bolger shows a set of lines for a Presto sharpie version of
Black Gauntlet in the Folding Schooner. Every so often, someone
builds a boat to a similar design. Pete Culler did one too. Part of
the equation is a very high ballast/displacement ratio, required to
give adequate sail-carrying power. Thinking it over, I don't recall
ever having seen a boat less than 30' described as a Presto sharpie,
probably because it couldn't hold much of a cabin.
The non-pariel sharpies were yacht-ized versions of the New Haven
Sharpies. They are shown in one or more of Chapelle's books. They
lapse from the flat-bottomed into the v-bottomed, which makes a
faster boat for a couple of reasons. I think the originator, a man
name Clapham (as I remember) had the reduction of wetted surface in
mind.
Anyway, Summer Ease looks like a great boat, if you want a large and
pretty daysailor.
Peter
Sue, et al:
I also really like Birdwatcher's looks and concept, but put off by
all the gear attached to the rudder. Actually, I would have built her
if not for that steering system. It is indeed complicated and
expensive, but doesn't appear vulnerable to me. I have pondered long
and hard on alternatives, and have concluded that: 1) all the
alternatives I can think of are as expensive and complicated as the
original, and, 2) I really should stop thinking about boats and get a
life<g>.
If anyone has a whiz-bang solution to the Birdwatcher steering
problem, I'm all ears (just what I need, another boat to build!),
;o)
porky
I also really like Birdwatcher's looks and concept, but put off by
all the gear attached to the rudder. Actually, I would have built her
if not for that steering system. It is indeed complicated and
expensive, but doesn't appear vulnerable to me. I have pondered long
and hard on alternatives, and have concluded that: 1) all the
alternatives I can think of are as expensive and complicated as the
original, and, 2) I really should stop thinking about boats and get a
life<g>.
If anyone has a whiz-bang solution to the Birdwatcher steering
problem, I'm all ears (just what I need, another boat to build!),
;o)
porky
--- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> My gripe with the Birdwatcher is the steering system, which
> looks complicated, expensive, and vulnerable to damage. Perhaps
> if a Teal-type skeg were mounted to bring the rudder up plumb,
> something along the lines of a Norwegian tiller or the steering
> lines on the Paradox might work? Or I seem to remember seeing
> a 19th Century canoe steering system in a book somewhere involving
> two wheels and some line....
Thanks Sue, they both look great will be even better when the designer
finishes them. Might just be what I'm looking for.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
finishes them. Might just be what I'm looking for.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
>
> There's a design sketch for a 21' LOD/23' LOA "big little cruiser"
> design in the "Files" section of "paradoxbuilders" (or is it
> "microcruising?"). The designer is off cruising in his Paradox
> at the moment (as he has for the last seven seasons), though, so
> it'd be a while before he'd get around to finishing the design.
> You're not the only one to express an interest in it, though....
>
> -- Sue --
> (actually, there are three different iterations of the concept;
> I'm fond of the "long cabin" version)
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
Peter, I saw a couple of postings regarding Presto on the microcruiser
site but I have never seen a picture, diagram or what ever can you
point me some where to have a look. I did have a look through the
different groups but did not see a reference to Summer Ease or Presto
in any of the file or photo sections, it was a quick look though.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
site but I have never seen a picture, diagram or what ever can you
point me some where to have a look. I did have a look through the
different groups but did not see a reference to Summer Ease or Presto
in any of the file or photo sections, it was a quick look though.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> Andy,
>
> Any thoughts about Summer Ease? More or less a simplified Presto
> sharpie at about 23'.
>
> Peter
Andy,
Any thoughts about Summer Ease? More or less a simplified Presto
sharpie at about 23'.
Peter
Any thoughts about Summer Ease? More or less a simplified Presto
sharpie at about 23'.
Peter
> Birdwatcher's optional 185'sq. Solent rig addresses theMy gripe with the Birdwatcher is the steering system, which
> underpowered sailing issue. Michalak suggests a canoe bracket
> mounted OB as an alternative to rowing the beast.
looks complicated, expensive, and vulnerable to damage. Perhaps
if a Teal-type skeg were mounted to bring the rudder up plumb,
something along the lines of a Norwegian tiller or the steering
lines on the Paradox might work? Or I seem to remember seeing
a 19th Century canoe steering system in a book somewhere involving
two wheels and some line....
OTOH, the Birdwatcher is pretty, which is more than can be said
about the Jewelbox or the Jochems Schooner.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> I have seen [Paradox] and I like the looks her alot, I might goThere's a design sketch for a 21' LOD/23' LOA "big little cruiser"
> to 19' or even 18' for a really special boat but this one is
> just too small. Think we could talk the designer into a similar
> boat around 20' or 21'.
design in the "Files" section of "paradoxbuilders" (or is it
"microcruising?"). The designer is off cruising in his Paradox
at the moment (as he has for the last seven seasons), though, so
it'd be a while before he'd get around to finishing the design.
You're not the only one to express an interest in it, though....
-- Sue --
(actually, there are three different iterations of the concept;
I'm fond of the "long cabin" version)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Andy,
You left out Skillygallee, a 29' "offcenterboard" yawl with a profile
very similar to Burgandy's--very pretty, imho. Okay, so she isn't a
double ender, but....
Birdwatcher's optional 185'sq. Solent rig addresses the underpowered
sailing issue. Michalak suggests a canoe bracket mounted OB as an
alternative to rowing the beast.
I thought you were looking for a bigger sharpie, and was going to
suggest Lion's Paw. How wrong I was!
porky
You left out Skillygallee, a 29' "offcenterboard" yawl with a profile
very similar to Burgandy's--very pretty, imho. Okay, so she isn't a
double ender, but....
Birdwatcher's optional 185'sq. Solent rig addresses the underpowered
sailing issue. Michalak suggests a canoe bracket mounted OB as an
alternative to rowing the beast.
I thought you were looking for a bigger sharpie, and was going to
suggest Lion's Paw. How wrong I was!
porky
--- In bolger@y..., "roue20ca" <amoore@h...> wrote:
> I like the shallow water or beach cruisers as a rule. I don't like
> the fat cat boats for reasons that have been hammered out in
previous
> postings. Below are some of the boats that have caught my eye, they
> don't all meet the above criteria exactly but for what ever reasons
> they are interesting to me. I'm looking for two actually one to get
> started about 20' maybe and a second for a couple of years later
maybe
> 24' or 25'. I will try to specify any specific likes or dislikes
> about the listed designs. Really like the birdwatcher concept.
>
> Phil Bolger; Anhinga(suspect she suffers from under power like
> Birdwatcer, not sure), Birdwatcher(Under Powered, other than that
> think might make good second boat), Black Skimmer, Light Schooner
(Lack
> of cabin), Martha Jane, Otter II, Burgundy(I know it is not a beach
> boat but I like her lines, ALOT).
>
> Jim Michalak's; Jewel Box(leaning to this one for first boat but
wish
> it had a V bottom instead of a flat bottom), AF3(bit small),
> Petesboat (looks like V bottom :) think it would be great second
> boat).
>
>
> Andy
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
I have seen this boat and I like the looks her alot, I might go to 19'
or even 18' for a really special boat but this one is just too small.
Think we could talk the designer into a similar boat around 20' or
21'.
Andy
Nova Scotia
Canada
or even 18' for a really special boat but this one is just too small.
Think we could talk the designer into a similar boat around 20' or
21'.
Andy
Nova Scotia
Canada
> Below are some of the boats that have caught my eye, theyIf you're willing to go a bit smaller on your "starter" boat, you
> don't all meet the above criteria exactly but for what ever reasons
> they are interesting to me. I'm looking for two actually one to get
> started about 20' maybe and a second for a couple of years later
> maybe 24' or 25'.
might want to take a look at
http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/paradox1.htm
or check out the "paradoxbuilders" Yahoo! group. Paradox is a
14' Birdwatcher-style sharpie microcruiser with cozy accomodations
for two (or comfy accomodations for one) in just about any
weather. They're really clever, in a Bolgerish sort of way,
and were developed off of a prototype that looks an awful lot
like the "small cruiser" that Bolger mentions as a possibility
in the "Dart" chapter of BWAOM. And they're pretty. And cheap.
Oh, and they've got space for 60 person-days of stores, and a
range of positive stability of 165 degrees, and....
-- Sue --
(planning to build one before starting on something somewhat larger)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
offshore for two decades, including two Atlantic crossings.
pay for such a boat at any price, I think. The leeboards alone are
enough to put off about 99% of the boating public. Melcher obviously
discovered the truth in your statement; he gave up on marketing the
hulls early on. He himself addressed the headroom issue by adding a
deckhouse (too much of a deckhouse, imho). The Chinese gaff rig was
designed by Bolger to address the weaknesses of the original
arrangement.
It is worthwhile to remember that this vessel has put some 50,000nm
under her keel, many of them off-soundings, while serving as her
owner's floating home for twenty years. Not bad for such an imperfect
design, eh?
porky
>....there is no reasonDone!
> that you can't upload the pic into the folder I created....
>...you see my point that callingthat
> it round-bottomed without further explanation is misleading. As to
> the motion in a seaway, I sure wish I had a copy of the boat with
> with to experiment. The boat was clearly designed for coastal
> cruising, i.e. semi-sheltered waters. It's not the sort of boat
> is going to bust upwind into big waves in any event.Nonetheless, the boat has cruised extensively, and successfully,
offshore for two decades, including two Atlantic crossings.
> Not many people are going to pay what it would cost to have thisboat
> professionally built ($100,000+ ?) to get a 33' boat withoutstanding
> headroom. The long boom, not secured by even so much as a properThe boat was designed for one-off construction. Not many people would
> goose neck, is also a consideration.
pay for such a boat at any price, I think. The leeboards alone are
enough to put off about 99% of the boating public. Melcher obviously
discovered the truth in your statement; he gave up on marketing the
hulls early on. He himself addressed the headroom issue by adding a
deckhouse (too much of a deckhouse, imho). The Chinese gaff rig was
designed by Bolger to address the weaknesses of the original
arrangement.
It is worthwhile to remember that this vessel has put some 50,000nm
under her keel, many of them off-soundings, while serving as her
owner's floating home for twenty years. Not bad for such an imperfect
design, eh?
porky
I like the shallow water or beach cruisers as a rule. I don't like
the fat cat boats for reasons that have been hammered out in previous
postings. Below are some of the boats that have caught my eye, they
don't all meet the above criteria exactly but for what ever reasons
they are interesting to me. I'm looking for two actually one to get
started about 20' maybe and a second for a couple of years later maybe
24' or 25'. I will try to specify any specific likes or dislikes
about the listed designs. Really like the birdwatcher concept.
Phil Bolger; Anhinga(suspect she suffers from under power like
Birdwatcer, not sure), Birdwatcher(Under Powered, other than that
think might make good second boat), Black Skimmer, Light Schooner(Lack
of cabin), Martha Jane, Otter II, Burgundy(I know it is not a beach
boat but I like her lines, ALOT).
Jim Michalak's; Jewel Box(leaning to this one for first boat but wish
it had a V bottom instead of a flat bottom), AF3(bit small),
Petesboat (looks like V bottom :) think it would be great second
boat).
Andy
Nova Scotia
Canada
the fat cat boats for reasons that have been hammered out in previous
postings. Below are some of the boats that have caught my eye, they
don't all meet the above criteria exactly but for what ever reasons
they are interesting to me. I'm looking for two actually one to get
started about 20' maybe and a second for a couple of years later maybe
24' or 25'. I will try to specify any specific likes or dislikes
about the listed designs. Really like the birdwatcher concept.
Phil Bolger; Anhinga(suspect she suffers from under power like
Birdwatcer, not sure), Birdwatcher(Under Powered, other than that
think might make good second boat), Black Skimmer, Light Schooner(Lack
of cabin), Martha Jane, Otter II, Burgundy(I know it is not a beach
boat but I like her lines, ALOT).
Jim Michalak's; Jewel Box(leaning to this one for first boat but wish
it had a V bottom instead of a flat bottom), AF3(bit small),
Petesboat (looks like V bottom :) think it would be great second
boat).
Andy
Nova Scotia
Canada
Just have to jump in when I hear the name "Chebacco"....
The bilge panels do have a lot of twist forward, and Bolger shows a curve in
the forward bulkhead to allow for the curve induced by torturing the skin.
After the first Chebacco(s) were built, he revised the plans to use two
layers of 1/4 inch instead of one layer of 1/2 inch ply for the bilge panel.
I used two 1/4 layers, and found not problem at all in fitting the panels.
I did, however, have to add about 1/2 inch more curve on the edge of the
forward bulkhead -- I did this by fitting a sliver of the same ply as the
bulkhead, cut to fit the gap left between bulkhead and hull. Anyone
building a Chebacco should consider adding this extra at the time they cut
out their bulkheads.
Jamie Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: porcupinefysh [mailto:porcupine@...]
Sent: March 19, 2002 9:01 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Manatee
A lot of hulls give the illusion of simplicity. This I discovered
when I tried to bend the forefoot panels on my Benford Gunkholer. In
spite of the fact that the station lines of this vee-bottomed, hard-
chined boat are dead straight, flat panels will not work on that
forefoot. The bilge panels on Bolger's Chebacco (and similar boats)
have the same problem.
The bilge panels do have a lot of twist forward, and Bolger shows a curve in
the forward bulkhead to allow for the curve induced by torturing the skin.
After the first Chebacco(s) were built, he revised the plans to use two
layers of 1/4 inch instead of one layer of 1/2 inch ply for the bilge panel.
I used two 1/4 layers, and found not problem at all in fitting the panels.
I did, however, have to add about 1/2 inch more curve on the edge of the
forward bulkhead -- I did this by fitting a sliver of the same ply as the
bulkhead, cut to fit the gap left between bulkhead and hull. Anyone
building a Chebacco should consider adding this extra at the time they cut
out their bulkheads.
Jamie Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: porcupinefysh [mailto:porcupine@...]
Sent: March 19, 2002 9:01 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Manatee
A lot of hulls give the illusion of simplicity. This I discovered
when I tried to bend the forefoot panels on my Benford Gunkholer. In
spite of the fact that the station lines of this vee-bottomed, hard-
chined boat are dead straight, flat panels will not work on that
forefoot. The bilge panels on Bolger's Chebacco (and similar boats)
have the same problem.
>I didn't find many hull sufaces that could be developed from flatI didn't mean that you could get an Alert shape from ply. We've been
> panels. Most of the sheerstrakes could probably be plywood.
talking at cross purposes to some extent. The boat is not so very
different in shape from a canoe, so a ply Alert would have to have a
couple of chines and panels that resemble a ply canoe of one type or
another.
The quick way to guess if a boat can be planked with ply is to look
at the sections on the body plan. If the sections are straight and
parallel, then OK. If the sections are straight and not parallel,
then not OK. If the sections are curved, then probably the designer
has worked out a developed shape and it's OK, but this is a statement
about human nature as much as about anything else.
Another complication is that designers often use a shape that they
know is developable, but show the sections straight for convenience.
For example, William Garden's Seabird II. There is a note on the
drawing that makes it clear. Bolger did this in Triad (Different
Boats) and the builders were not clever enough to pick up on it and
had to pad out the frames to get the curve. - PHV
Again expanding on my (other) previous comments (Why do I keep doing
this? Am I trying to be thorough, overbearing, or am I simply
confused?). These are not to be taken as criticism, just the idle
thoughts of a serial wood butcher...
this? Am I trying to be thorough, overbearing, or am I simply
confused?). These are not to be taken as criticism, just the idle
thoughts of a serial wood butcher...
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
>....the bottom is completely flat and the
> sides are nearly so. It's just the turn of the bilge that is
> significantly different than what could be done with panel
material.
> Admittedly, a big difference.
I do not have the lines for Alert (ex Manatee), but in reviewing the
lines for similarly Thames barge-type vessels from Bolger's pen, ie:
Barn Owl, Romp, Ataraxia, Offshore Leeboarder, Titania and Tonweya, I
didn't find many hull sufaces that could be developed from flat
panels. Most of the sheerstrakes could probably be plywood,
occasionally much of the topsides. The bottoms of the boats, although
flat at the midships station, show increasing deadrise with a lot of
three-dimensonal curvature for and aft of that point. I doubt that
they could be formed from flat panels without substantial torturing.
A lot of hulls give the illusion of simplicity. This I discovered
when I tried to bend the forefoot panels on my Benford Gunkholer. In
spite of the fact that the station lines of this vee-bottomed, hard-
chined boat are dead straight, flat panels will not work on that
forefoot. The bilge panels on Bolger's Chebacco (and similar boats)
have the same problem.
Generally, unless the designer starts out with the intention of
designing for flat panels, they will not work. The builder who tries
to force the issue will expend a lot of time and material for naught,
and might ruin the project in the process.
Not that I'm suggesting that anyone in this erudite group would do
such a thing....
;o)
porky
> There is no option to move files around, so I simply deleted them.You are right that there is no "move." However, there is no reason
that you can't upload the pic into the folder I created. It's a
welcome addition. Using folders allows a useful bit of organization
to the files section.
>AsYou are right of course, but I am sure you see my point that calling
> for not calling Alert a round-bottomed boat, what would you have it
> be called?
it round-bottomed without further explanation is misleading. As to
the motion in a seaway, I sure wish I had a copy of the boat with
with to experiment. The boat was clearly designed for coastal
cruising, i.e. semi-sheltered waters. It's not the sort of boat that
is going to bust upwind into big waves in any event.
Not many people are going to pay what it would cost to have this boat
professionally built ($100,000+ ?) to get a 33' boat without standing
headroom. The long boom, not secured by even so much as a proper
goose neck, is also a consideration.
Peter
There is no option to move files around, so I simply deleted them. As
for not calling Alert a round-bottomed boat, what would you have it
becalled? By strict definition it is a rare boat indeed that is
truely round-bottomed, and you probably wouldn't want such a boat
anyway. Its motion in a seaway would be really difficult to take. I
think that calling Alert "a round-bottomed vessel of Thames barge
derivation" (I'm probably misquoting myself here) is entirely apt and
adequate. It indicates that the boat is not a hard-chined plywood
sharpie. Perhaps someone around here just enjoys splitting semantic
hairs?
;o)
porky
for not calling Alert a round-bottomed boat, what would you have it
becalled? By strict definition it is a rare boat indeed that is
truely round-bottomed, and you probably wouldn't want such a boat
anyway. Its motion in a seaway would be really difficult to take. I
think that calling Alert "a round-bottomed vessel of Thames barge
derivation" (I'm probably misquoting myself here) is entirely apt and
adequate. It indicates that the boat is not a hard-chined plywood
sharpie. Perhaps someone around here just enjoys splitting semantic
hairs?
;o)
porky
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > I have just loaded drawings of the cat yawl and Chinese
> > gaff rig drawings of Alert onto the Bolger2 Files section (find
> them under <alertp.jpg>, about halfway down the page).
>
> I uploaded scans of the sail plan and accomodation plan to a
Bolger2
> Files folder named Alert. I suggest that you move alertp.jpg to the
> same folder.
>
> I think it's misleading to call this boat "round bottomed." The
barge
> shape is more like Dovkie: the bottom is completely flat and the
> sides are nearly so. It's just the turn of the bilge that is
> significantly different than what could be done with panel
material.
> Admittedly, a big difference.
>
> Anyone interested the LFH Meadowlark should check out both this
> design and PCB's Berengaria before deciding.
>
> Peter
> I have just loaded drawings of the cat yawl and Chinesethem under <alertp.jpg>, about halfway down the page).
> gaff rig drawings of Alert onto the Bolger2 Files section (find
I uploaded scans of the sail plan and accomodation plan to a Bolger2
Files folder named Alert. I suggest that you move alertp.jpg to the
same folder.
I think it's misleading to call this boat "round bottomed." The barge
shape is more like Dovkie: the bottom is completely flat and the
sides are nearly so. It's just the turn of the bilge that is
significantly different than what could be done with panel material.
Admittedly, a big difference.
Anyone interested the LFH Meadowlark should check out both this
design and PCB's Berengaria before deciding.
Peter
Andy,
You post seems to beg the question: What *are* you looking for?
Perhaps the group can ponder that one for a while (or else pound it
into the ground<g>),
porky
You post seems to beg the question: What *are* you looking for?
Perhaps the group can ponder that one for a while (or else pound it
into the ground<g>),
porky
--- In bolger@y..., "roue20ca" <amoore@h...> wrote:
> Porky, thanks for the image. When I heard it looked like Black
> Skimmer I was interested but I agree with you it is not at all like
> Black Skimmer. Interesting boat but not really what I'm looking
for.
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
Porky, thanks for the image. When I heard it looked like Black
Skimmer I was interested but I agree with you it is not at all like
Black Skimmer. Interesting boat but not really what I'm looking for.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
Skimmer I was interested but I agree with you it is not at all like
Black Skimmer. Interesting boat but not really what I'm looking for.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
Alert (ex Manatee) is not like Black Skimmer, in spite of
appearances. I have just loaded drawings of the cat yawl and Chinese
gaff rig drawings of Alert onto the Bolger2 Files section (find them
under <alertp.jpg>, about halfway down the page). These are from one
of the MAIB articles on the boat. I could locate no photographs of
her on the web. There were a couple in a Cruising World article a few
years ago, and there are some in MAIB, but they aren't very helpful.
The Cruising World pix showed the owner and his wife in the cockpit
and not much more. The MAIB photos are mainly there to illustrate the
Chinese gaff rig. It would be helpful if someone could load a plan-
view or something into the files, so the layout could be seen more
clearly. I don't have one.
The vessel is round-bottomed and of Thames barge derivation, similar
to Romp and Barn Owl, with a false clipper bow, leeboards, an inboard
engine and a transom-hung rudder. She is 33'x8'x2', give or take a
couple of inches. The mast is in a tabernacle, mounted in a bow well.
The cabin was originally a pretty basic affair, but the owner has
added a deck house (and no doubt other amenities) over the years.
With about eighteen feet of length in the cabin, there is room for
some comforts, in spite of the narrow beam,
porky
appearances. I have just loaded drawings of the cat yawl and Chinese
gaff rig drawings of Alert onto the Bolger2 Files section (find them
under <alertp.jpg>, about halfway down the page). These are from one
of the MAIB articles on the boat. I could locate no photographs of
her on the web. There were a couple in a Cruising World article a few
years ago, and there are some in MAIB, but they aren't very helpful.
The Cruising World pix showed the owner and his wife in the cockpit
and not much more. The MAIB photos are mainly there to illustrate the
Chinese gaff rig. It would be helpful if someone could load a plan-
view or something into the files, so the layout could be seen more
clearly. I don't have one.
The vessel is round-bottomed and of Thames barge derivation, similar
to Romp and Barn Owl, with a false clipper bow, leeboards, an inboard
engine and a transom-hung rudder. She is 33'x8'x2', give or take a
couple of inches. The mast is in a tabernacle, mounted in a bow well.
The cabin was originally a pretty basic affair, but the owner has
added a deck house (and no doubt other amenities) over the years.
With about eighteen feet of length in the cabin, there is room for
some comforts, in spite of the narrow beam,
porky
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> Alert is included in the parade of boat silhouettes that graces
PCB's
> envelopes. Looks sort of like a Black Skimmer.
>
>
> >I see this boat is listed in the database, does anyone have or know
> >were(on the W3) we can see some basic drawings of this boat. By
the
> >sound of the thread pictures are unlikely?
> >
> >Andy Moore
> >Nova Scotia
> >Canada
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> (212) 247-0296
There is a picture of Alert in Different Boats and some additional
pictures have appeared in MAIB. - PHV
pictures have appeared in MAIB. - PHV
Actually there is a photo with the original rig, plans and a full building
key in DIFFERENT BOATS. Unfortunately I do not have a scanner, so can't post
any pictures. It is a very nice looking boat built with one inch square
cedar strip planking.
Perhaps someone with the book and a scanner could upload the photo.
It would also be nice to see a picture with the new rig, if anyone has it.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
on 19/3/02 10:20 AM, roue20ca atamoore@...wrote:
key in DIFFERENT BOATS. Unfortunately I do not have a scanner, so can't post
any pictures. It is a very nice looking boat built with one inch square
cedar strip planking.
Perhaps someone with the book and a scanner could upload the photo.
It would also be nice to see a picture with the new rig, if anyone has it.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
on 19/3/02 10:20 AM, roue20ca atamoore@...wrote:
> I see this boat is listed in the database, does anyone have or know
> were(on the W3) we can see some basic drawings of this boat. By the
> sound of the thread pictures are unlikely?
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
Alert is included in the parade of boat silhouettes that graces PCB's
envelopes. Looks sort of like a Black Skimmer.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
envelopes. Looks sort of like a Black Skimmer.
>I see this boat is listed in the database, does anyone have or knowC.E.P.
>were(on the W3) we can see some basic drawings of this boat. By the
>sound of the thread pictures are unlikely?
>
>Andy Moore
>Nova Scotia
>Canada
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
I see this boat is listed in the database, does anyone have or know
were(on the W3) we can see some basic drawings of this boat. By the
sound of the thread pictures are unlikely?
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
were(on the W3) we can see some basic drawings of this boat. By the
sound of the thread pictures are unlikely?
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
--- In bolger@y..., "Seabird Aviation Australia Pty Ltd"
<seabird@a...> wrote:
Expanding on my previous comments, Melcher's boat was built as a cat-
yawl, but converted to a single Bolger "Chinese gaff" rig in
the '90s. The conversion was detailed in Messing About in Boats,
Volume 15, Number 6; and Volume 16, Number 17. Judging from Bolger's
comments in those articles, the conversion was a success,
porky
<seabird@a...> wrote:
> I would also be interested to know if any of this design were builtwith a rig other than the cat-yawl rig shown on the plans...
Expanding on my previous comments, Melcher's boat was built as a cat-
yawl, but converted to a single Bolger "Chinese gaff" rig in
the '90s. The conversion was detailed in Messing About in Boats,
Volume 15, Number 6; and Volume 16, Number 17. Judging from Bolger's
comments in those articles, the conversion was a success,
porky
Peter,
I contacted Bolger in 1999 (I think) about the Alert (nee: Manatee)
plans. Although I didn't ask specifically about sister ships, I got
the impression from him that there were none. Later, when I realized
that a substantial part of my income over the next few years would be
going to the colleges that my kids would be attending, I set aside
the dream of building such a large vessel.
Alert's builder and owner, Jim Melcher, has been living the cruising
life on her for the past twenty years. He had originally planned on
building a series of hulls to sell for others to finish, but belayed
the scheme when he couldn't find any buyers.
So, as far as I know, Melcher's is the only one. Because of his life
style, he is probably difficult to contact. I would suggest trying
PB&F if you're serious about this design. They may know where Melcher
is, and would at least be aware of anyone else who has purchased
plans and might be willing to talk to you,
porky
--- In bolger@y..., "Seabird Aviation Australia Pty Ltd"
<seabird@a...> wrote:
owners or builders.
I contacted Bolger in 1999 (I think) about the Alert (nee: Manatee)
plans. Although I didn't ask specifically about sister ships, I got
the impression from him that there were none. Later, when I realized
that a substantial part of my income over the next few years would be
going to the colleges that my kids would be attending, I set aside
the dream of building such a large vessel.
Alert's builder and owner, Jim Melcher, has been living the cruising
life on her for the past twenty years. He had originally planned on
building a series of hulls to sell for others to finish, but belayed
the scheme when he couldn't find any buyers.
So, as far as I know, Melcher's is the only one. Because of his life
style, he is probably difficult to contact. I would suggest trying
PB&F if you're serious about this design. They may know where Melcher
is, and would at least be aware of anyone else who has purchased
plans and might be willing to talk to you,
porky
--- In bolger@y..., "Seabird Aviation Australia Pty Ltd"
<seabird@a...> wrote:
> Does any one in the group have any idea of the number of Manateesthat have been built, and contact numbers for any past or present
owners or builders.
>with a rig other than the cat-yawl rig shown on the plans.
> I would also be interested to know if any of this design were built
> Cheers
> Peter Adams
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Does any one in the group have any idea of the number of Manatees that have been built, and contact numbers for any past or present owners or builders.
I would also be interested to know if any of this design were built with a rig other than the cat-yawl rig shown on the plans.
Cheers
Peter Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would also be interested to know if any of this design were built with a rig other than the cat-yawl rig shown on the plans.
Cheers
Peter Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bruce,
Thanks! That would be great. My address is:
David M. Galvin
RR1 Box 71A
Bloomville, NY 13739
Chances are you could just scrawl my name and the Zip Code on the envelope and it would get to me, but it doesn't hurt to be thorough. Let me know if there's anything I can do to repay you,
david
Thanks! That would be great. My address is:
David M. Galvin
RR1 Box 71A
Bloomville, NY 13739
Chances are you could just scrawl my name and the Zip Code on the envelope and it would get to me, but it doesn't hurt to be thorough. Let me know if there's anything I can do to repay you,
david
Bruce Beckwith wrote:
david <galvin-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3026
> Hi, All,
> If anyone has a copy of _Different Boats_ and could sent me a copy of
> the section on Manatee (aka Alert), I would appreciate it....David,I can make copies for you from Different Boats. Just send me your
snail mail address.
Bruce
david <galvin-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3081
You already have,David. I'm the one who "bugged" you for the
"Pirogue"
pictures. I'll get the copies tomorrow and get'em out on Thursday.
Bruce
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3081
> Bruce,envelope
> Thanks! That would be great. My address is:
> David M. Galvin
> RR1 Box 71A
> Bloomville, NY 13739
> Chances are you could just scrawl my name and the Zip Code on the
> and it would get to me, but it doesn't hurt to be thorough. Let meknow if
> there's anything I can do to repay you,David,
> david
>
You already have,David. I'm the one who "bugged" you for the
"Pirogue"
pictures. I'll get the copies tomorrow and get'em out on Thursday.
Bruce
> Bruce Beckwith wrote:copy of
>
> > david <galvin-@...> wrote:
> > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3026
> > > Hi, All,
> > > If anyone has a copy of _Different Boats_ and could sent me a
> > > the section on Manatee (aka Alert), I would appreciate it....your
>
> > David,
>
> > I can make copies for you from Different Boats. Just send me
> > snail mail address.
> > Bruce
> >
> >
>
>
>
John,
Thanks for your interest and input. I would appreciate any information you could provide concerning Manatee. As for Barn Owl, she's a big 'un, too much for me to build in a reasonable time or sail singlehanded, more than likely. I'm looking for a graceful alternative to the AS-29 or LMII. Manatee seems to have most of AS-29's good points, and hopefully will be less of a burden to my heirs. Romp is another alternative, but that humungous centerboard trunk dividing the cabin puts me off. Bolger has published thoughts about modifying the boat to a leeboarder, but in a private correspondence with me he did not sound hopeful that he would get around to it in the forseeable future,
david
Thanks for your interest and input. I would appreciate any information you could provide concerning Manatee. As for Barn Owl, she's a big 'un, too much for me to build in a reasonable time or sail singlehanded, more than likely. I'm looking for a graceful alternative to the AS-29 or LMII. Manatee seems to have most of AS-29's good points, and hopefully will be less of a burden to my heirs. Romp is another alternative, but that humungous centerboard trunk dividing the cabin puts me off. Bolger has published thoughts about modifying the boat to a leeboarder, but in a private correspondence with me he did not sound hopeful that he would get around to it in the forseeable future,
david
Fries, John wrote:
Can't help you with Different Boats but Wooden Boat did a profile of Manatee
several years ago. The issue is still available (I recently got it). I'll
try to remember to send you the volume number. I wrote to Phil Bolger
inquiring about this design because I too found it very interesting,
especially after reading the article. Bolger replied that he thought Barn
Owl might be better. Barn Owl is shown in Boats with an Open MInd.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david [SMTP:galvind@...]
> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 7:18 PM
> To: bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Manatee
>
> Hi, All,
> If anyone has a copy of _Different Boats_ and could sent me a copy
of
> the section on Manatee (aka Alert), I would appreciate it. The boat
> looks like a viable option for living aboard and offshore passages
with
> the modifications that Bolger has been chronicling in MAIB. I would
like
> to buy the book but haven't been able to find one available. I will
> happily pay any expenses incurred in making and mailing the copies
(but
> no, I won't buy you a scanner <g>),
> Thanks,
> david
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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david <galvin-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3026
I can make copies for you from Different Boats. Just send me your
snail mail address.
Bruce
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3026
> Hi, All,with
> If anyone has a copy of _Different Boats_ and could sent me a copy of
> the section on Manatee (aka Alert), I would appreciate it. The boat
> looks like a viable option for living aboard and offshore passages
> the modifications that Bolger has been chronicling in MAIB. I wouldlike
> to buy the book but haven't been able to find one available. I will(but
> happily pay any expenses incurred in making and mailing the copies
> no, I won't buy you a scanner <g>),David,
> Thanks,
> david
>
I can make copies for you from Different Boats. Just send me your
snail mail address.
Bruce
Can't help you with Different Boats but Wooden Boat did a profile of Manatee
several years ago. The issue is still available (I recently got it). I'll
try to remember to send you the volume number. I wrote to Phil Bolger
inquiring about this design because I too found it very interesting,
especially after reading the article. Bolger replied that he thought Barn
Owl might be better. Barn Owl is shown in Boats with an Open MInd.
several years ago. The issue is still available (I recently got it). I'll
try to remember to send you the volume number. I wrote to Phil Bolger
inquiring about this design because I too found it very interesting,
especially after reading the article. Bolger replied that he thought Barn
Owl might be better. Barn Owl is shown in Boats with an Open MInd.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david [SMTP:galvind@...]
> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 7:18 PM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Manatee
>
> Hi, All,
> If anyone has a copy of _Different Boats_ and could sent me a copy of
> the section on Manatee (aka Alert), I would appreciate it. The boat
> looks like a viable option for living aboard and offshore passages with
> the modifications that Bolger has been chronicling in MAIB. I would like
> to buy the book but haven't been able to find one available. I will
> happily pay any expenses incurred in making and mailing the copies (but
> no, I won't buy you a scanner <g>),
> Thanks,
> david
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9%
> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/932/5/_/3457/_/951081779/
>
> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
> --http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
Hi, All,
If anyone has a copy of _Different Boats_ and could sent me a copy of
the section on Manatee (aka Alert), I would appreciate it. The boat
looks like a viable option for living aboard and offshore passages with
the modifications that Bolger has been chronicling in MAIB. I would like
to buy the book but haven't been able to find one available. I will
happily pay any expenses incurred in making and mailing the copies (but
no, I won't buy you a scanner <g>),
Thanks,
david
If anyone has a copy of _Different Boats_ and could sent me a copy of
the section on Manatee (aka Alert), I would appreciate it. The boat
looks like a viable option for living aboard and offshore passages with
the modifications that Bolger has been chronicling in MAIB. I would like
to buy the book but haven't been able to find one available. I will
happily pay any expenses incurred in making and mailing the copies (but
no, I won't buy you a scanner <g>),
Thanks,
david