Re: [bolger] Re: Expanding panels, lofting.

On Saturday, August 23, 2003, at 02:46 PM, Harry James wrote:

> Ok, I have looked around and this is the only mention I have found of
> this book, is it for sale anywhere?

I bought the book (The Secret Guide To Plywood Boat Design)
Directly from Jim Michalak about two years ago. The book was
very rough and very informative. Actually it looked like copies
of his design notes and rules of thumb spiral bound. Lots of
good stuff, I highly recommend it. I don't know if it is still
available
or not but Jim does.

http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/

hal
> Ok, I have looked around and this is the only mention I have found
of
> this book, is it for sale anywhere?

Have you asked... Jim Michalak?

Peter
Harry,

We MUST be a serious body of boat savants; just LOOK at our 'sent from'
names! In other groups you see names like 'oogabooga9834' or
'sqeamishninny'. We're so sober about boats that we actually use our own
names!



Woodrow Wilson



-----Original Message-----
From: Harry James [mailto:welshman@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 5:50 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Expanding panels, lofting.



Oh no! Could it be I have fallen victim to a spoof? How am I supposed to
know if I should engage my sense of humor in this ever so serious group
if somebody doesn't put in the appropriate emoticon?

HJ

David Romasco wrote:

>Well now, daggonit Harry!
>
>
>
>If'n you could find that there book easy-like, Jim wouldn't of gone and
>named it 'The Secret Guide', now would he?
>
>
>
>DR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Ok, I have looked around and this is the only mention I have found of
>this book, is it for sale anywhere?
>
>HJ
>
>
>
>>I have written a program in Perl which divides a 3D panel
>>into triangles, solves for the length of the sides of each
>>triangle and outputs the panel in 2D. If you are interested
>>I would be happy to e-mail it to you. To give credit where
>>credit is due I stole the formuli from a spread sheet I found
>>in Jim Michalak's book "The Secret Guide To Plywood
>>boat design".
>>
>>hal
>>
>>
>>






Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=259538.3760361.5018013.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050657
91:HM/A=1712983/R=0/SIG=11u38u3s2/*http:/hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=13
74-105951838331032> click here



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=259538.3760361.5018013.1261774/D=egroupmai
l/S=:HM/A=1712983/rand=944528124>


Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh no! Could it be I have fallen victim to a spoof? How am I supposed to
know if I should engage my sense of humor in this ever so serious group
if somebody doesn't put in the appropriate emoticon?

HJ

David Romasco wrote:

>Well now, daggonit Harry!
>
>
>
>If'n you could find that there book easy-like, Jim wouldn't of gone and
>named it 'The Secret Guide', now would he?
>
>
>
>DR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Ok, I have looked around and this is the only mention I have found of
>this book, is it for sale anywhere?
>
>HJ
>
>
>
>>I have written a program in Perl which divides a 3D panel
>>into triangles, solves for the length of the sides of each
>>triangle and outputs the panel in 2D. If you are interested
>>I would be happy to e-mail it to you. To give credit where
>>credit is due I stole the formuli from a spread sheet I found
>>in Jim Michalak's book "The Secret Guide To Plywood
>>boat design".
>>
>>hal
>>
>>
>>
Well now, daggonit Harry!



If'n you could find that there book easy-like, Jim wouldn't of gone and
named it 'The Secret Guide', now would he?



DR



-----Original Message-----
From: Harry James [mailto:welshman@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 4:47 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Expanding panels, lofting.



Ok, I have looked around and this is the only mention I have found of
this book, is it for sale anywhere?

HJ

>
>I have written a program in Perl which divides a 3D panel
>into triangles, solves for the length of the sides of each
>triangle and outputs the panel in 2D. If you are interested
>I would be happy to e-mail it to you. To give credit where
>credit is due I stole the formuli from a spread sheet I found
>in Jim Michalak's book "The Secret Guide To Plywood
>boat design".
>
>hal
>
>
>
>






Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=259538.3760361.5018013.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050657
91:HM/A=1712983/R=0/SIG=11u38u3s2/*http:/hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/hit?page=13
74-105951838331032> click here



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=259538.3760361.5018013.1261774/D=egroupmai
l/S=:HM/A=1712983/rand=526408190>


Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ok, I have looked around and this is the only mention I have found of
this book, is it for sale anywhere?

HJ

>
>I have written a program in Perl which divides a 3D panel
>into triangles, solves for the length of the sides of each
>triangle and outputs the panel in 2D. If you are interested
>I would be happy to e-mail it to you. To give credit where
>credit is due I stole the formuli from a spread sheet I found
>in Jim Michalak's book "The Secret Guide To Plywood
>boat design".
>
>hal
>
>
>
>
John Bell mentioned spiling to determine the panel
shapes. I spiled the strakes of Spur II, and found it
to be a little easier said than done! I just finished
calculating the expanded dimensions of Crystals panels
using a spreadsheet and the connected triangle method.
Is was much easier than I expected. The side panels
work out to be exactly 16 feet long, within a 16th of
an inch. PCB is such a genius!
---smallboatdesigner@...
<smallboatdesigner@...> wrote:
> The trick to determine the shape of the panels is to
> 'spile' them off of the mold. Essentially, spiling
> means you pick the shape of the panel off of the
> framed up hull. For a one-off, I don't see where
> expanding the panels saves you anything on building
> Crystal as designed.
>
> Be warned using Hulls on this boat. Crystal's bottom
> panels are somewhat tortured, so Hulls won't give
you
> the exact expansions. Hulls assumes only two
> dimensional curvature.
>
>
> --- Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@...> wrote:
> > > Crystal is kind of unique, in that
> > you build a sort of 'half mold' on
> > a strongback frame, then put the
> > deck on upside down, to which you
> > mount the framing of the side
> > floatation chambers and the foot
> > well bulkheads, stem, keel and
> > transom. To this assemblie you
> > attach the side and bilge panels...
> > but how would you determine their
> > shapes to cut from a flat piece of
> > plywood?
> >
> > What is the trick in determining
> > the 'flat expansion' of curved
> > panels [and strakes]???
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> > flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no
'Ed,
> > thanks, Fred' posts
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> > and <snip> away
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> > 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:
> >bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
design software
>http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 12:43 PM, David Romasco wrote:

> Might as well post it on the file page; you'll go nuts emailing copies
> otherwise... ;-)

Done. Look in:
Bolger3 group
Files
"Panel Expansion" folder.
The trick to determine the shape of the panels is to
'spile' them off of the mold. Essentially, spiling
means you pick the shape of the panel off of the
framed up hull. For a one-off, I don't see where
expanding the panels saves you anything on building
Crystal as designed.

Be warned using Hulls on this boat. Crystal's bottom
panels are somewhat tortured, so Hulls won't give you
the exact expansions. Hulls assumes only two
dimensional curvature.


--- Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@...> wrote:
> > Crystal is kind of unique, in that
> you build a sort of 'half mold' on
> a strongback frame, then put the
> deck on upside down, to which you
> mount the framing of the side
> floatation chambers and the foot
> well bulkheads, stem, keel and
> transom. To this assemblie you
> attach the side and bilge panels...
> but how would you determine their
> shapes to cut from a flat piece of
> plywood?
>
> What is the trick in determining
> the 'flat expansion' of curved
> panels [and strakes]???
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
--- Hal Lynch <hal@c...> wrote:

> into triangles, solves

That is what I have
started to do. Using
a spreadsheet and the
x, y, z coordinates
from the table of offsets.

[heights, halfbreaths, and stations]

I will 'low tech' pencil
draw the triangles to
scale, and that should
approximate the expanded
shape. [I hope.]
Well, heck, Hal,



Might as well post it on the file page; you'll go nuts emailing copies
otherwise... ;-)



David Romasco



-----Original Message-----
From: Hal Lynch [mailto:hal@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:34 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Expanding panels, lofting.




On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 09:26 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> Q: How to determine the 'bend axis'
> of a plank from the lofting???

Back in BC (before cad) when I was a mechanical draftsman I
knew how to do that. I suggest you find an OLD drafting text
that has to do with sheet metal. If I could remember I would
tell you how?!

I have written a program in Perl which divides a 3D panel
into triangles, solves for the length of the sides of each
triangle and outputs the panel in 2D. If you are interested
I would be happy to e-mail it to you. To give credit where
credit is due I stole the formuli from a spread sheet I found
in Jim Michalak's book "The Secret Guide To Plywood
boat design".

hal






Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3707890.4968055.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050657
91:HM/A=1595053/R=0/SIG=124gf29oe/*http:/ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitakenattogyo
?YH=3707890&yhad=1595053> Click Here!



<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=244522.3707890.4968055.1261774/D=egroupmai
l/S=:HM/A=1595053/rand=488642947>


Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 09:26 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> Q: How to determine the 'bend axis'
> of a plank from the lofting???

Back in BC (before cad) when I was a mechanical draftsman I
knew how to do that. I suggest you find an OLD drafting text
that has to do with sheet metal. If I could remember I would
tell you how?!

I have written a program in Perl which divides a 3D panel
into triangles, solves for the length of the sides of each
triangle and outputs the panel in 2D. If you are interested
I would be happy to e-mail it to you. To give credit where
credit is due I stole the formuli from a spread sheet I found
in Jim Michalak's book "The Secret Guide To Plywood
boat design".

hal
What if it's a conical projection rather than a cylindrical one?

Chuck
No doubt yes!

Still, PCB designs his boats,
[and builders for centuries
have built boats] by lofting
without software.

Thinking more about this,
the challenge is to predict
the direction of curvature
of the plywood...which I
figure will be along the
surface of a cylinder.
[A simple curve, not a
tortured curve.]

I am guessing that somehow
you can draw the 'bend axis'
of the cylinder on the lofting
diagram, and then draw a line
perpendicular to the axis, and
measure the distance to each
edge of the plank from that line.
Then layout this on plywood for the
cut. I will have to try this
out and see.

Q: How to determine the 'bend axis'
of a plank from the lofting???





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Plywood, and other stiff sheet materials, will bend into a cone shape.
(A cylinder is a special case of a cone.) If you're wanting to do it
without modeling, you have to find both the axis and the taper.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@...>

> --- "ghartc" <gcarlson@c...> wrote:
> > One way to expand panels is
> > by using a program like "hulls".
>
> No doubt yes!
>
> Still, PCB designs his boats,
> [and builders for centuries
> have built boats] by lofting
> without software.
>
> Thinking more about this,
> the challenge is to predict
> the direction of curvature
> of the plywood...which I
> figure will be along the
> surface of a cylinder.
> [A simple curve, not a
> tortured curve.]
>
> I am guessing that somehow
> you can draw the 'bend axis'
> of the cylinder on the lofting
> diagram, and then draw a line
> perpendicular to the axis, and
> measure the distance to each
> edge of the plank from that line.
> Then layout this on plywood for the
> cut. I will have to try this
> out and see.
>
> Q: How to determine the 'bend axis'
> of a plank from the lofting???
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 019
30, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
--- "ghartc" <gcarlson@c...> wrote:
> One way to expand panels is
> by using a program like "hulls".

No doubt yes!

Still, PCB designs his boats,
[and builders for centuries
have built boats] by lofting
without software.

Thinking more about this,
the challenge is to predict
the direction of curvature
of the plywood...which I
figure will be along the
surface of a cylinder.
[A simple curve, not a
tortured curve.]

I am guessing that somehow
you can draw the 'bend axis'
of the cylinder on the lofting
diagram, and then draw a line
perpendicular to the axis, and
measure the distance to each
edge of the plank from that line.
Then layout this on plywood for the
cut. I will have to try this
out and see.

Q: How to determine the 'bend axis'
of a plank from the lofting???
Howdy

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Expanding panels, lofting.
>
>
> > One way to expand panels is by using a program like "hulls".

I started from scratch, all I had was a sheet of plywood and some extra
epoxy. Using Greg Carlson's HULLS program I am building this.

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/Boatz/OSKayak/OSKayak.html

Using the offsets generated in the HULLS program, it came out of one
sheet of plywood perfectly.

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/

If you give me money, I'll try to spend it.

Click here to Donate
> One way to expand panels is by using a program like "hulls".

With luck, the Duckman will soon be posting a series on Duckworks
that explains (among other things) how this can be done with a
reasonable degree of accuracy.

I might be tempted to use the Hulls suggestion or some other quick
but approximate method to cut out planks in masonite or similar
inexpensive panel material. Put them on the boat (don't you love that
British expression, "offer them up..."), and mark any minor changes.
Then you have a full size pattern.

On the discussion board at MacNaughton.com, there was some talk about
last November about some advanced mathematics for this. I'm not sure
that there was complete follow-through.

Peter
Bruce,

One way to expand panels is by using a program like "hulls". You can
get a copy from www.carlsondesign.com. (Cost is to send me a pic of
your boat.)

Gregg Carlson

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
wrote:
> for Crystal, PCB writes:
> 'not recommended for novice
> builders'.

> I can imagine building the
> frames, and the mold, but
> I cannot imagine expanding
> the shapes of the side, and
> mid panels from the table
> of offsets or by lofting.
> [except by trial and error and
> trial again.]
>
>...To this assemblie you
> attach the side and bilge panels...
> but how would you determine their
> shapes to cut from a flat piece of
> plywood?
>
> What is the trick in determining
> the 'flat expansion' of curved
> panels [and strakes]???
Once again, I am dream
building Bolger boats
in my head. On the plans
for Crystal, PCB writes:
'not recommended for novice
builders'.

Crystal, a very beautiful
surf rowboat, good enough for
PCB to own personally.

I can imagine building the
frames, and the mold, but
I cannot imagine expanding
the shapes of the side, and
mid panels from the table
of offsets or by lofting.
[except by trial and error and
trial again.]

Crystal is kind of unique, in that
you build a sort of 'half mold' on
a strongback frame, then put the
deck on upside down, to which you
mount the framing of the side
floatation chambers and the foot
well bulkheads, stem, keel and
transom. To this assemblie you
attach the side and bilge panels...
but how would you determine their
shapes to cut from a flat piece of
plywood?

What is the trick in determining
the 'flat expansion' of curved
panels [and strakes]???