[bolger] nis and as29
BO>comparing the performance of
BO>the AS 29 and the NIS 29
Should have added: do not assume that the NIS29 would automatically do
the AS29 in to windward. The cat yawl is intrinsically higher-pointing
than the cat ketch. AS29 seems to tack through a very small arc (esp.
when compared with scooners!) and I think the AS29 shoulders are more
powerful too, when faced with a chop. Add to this greater initial
stability and far less heeling moment (a more upright boat) and you may
have compensations for the higher-tech aspects of the NIS29.
Anyone cares to donate me $750 to pay for the racing insurance premium
(extra above ordinary insurance) I'll gladly put it to the test next
season.
Should also have added: both Lady Kate and Nameless NIS have sails cut
by the same sailmaker, one Ken O'Brien, who never gets the credit he
deserves for first wresting the America's Cup from the grip of the NYYC
(forget the winged keel bit - that was psychological warfare--it was all
in the sails). So, it's not a case of =our= sailmaker being better than
=their= sailmaker.
On Peter's comment re beautifully-shaped foils on NIS's. These =weren't=
part of the original design. Rather, they were developments by Michael
Storer when part of Duck Flat-Wooden Boats to improve what was then
rather sluggish upwind capabilities, abd now incorporated in the design.
Our AS29 also has a NACA foil rudder and modified NACA bilgeboards,
which gives pause for thought. (Light schooner doesn't, yet, but =will=
sprout them if the handicap goes up any further...we think of NACA foils
as our legitimate dirty-tricks reserve).
Tim & Lady Kate
If you kick 'em while they're down, they're that much less likely to get
up and thump you...
BO>the AS 29 and the NIS 29
Should have added: do not assume that the NIS29 would automatically do
the AS29 in to windward. The cat yawl is intrinsically higher-pointing
than the cat ketch. AS29 seems to tack through a very small arc (esp.
when compared with scooners!) and I think the AS29 shoulders are more
powerful too, when faced with a chop. Add to this greater initial
stability and far less heeling moment (a more upright boat) and you may
have compensations for the higher-tech aspects of the NIS29.
Anyone cares to donate me $750 to pay for the racing insurance premium
(extra above ordinary insurance) I'll gladly put it to the test next
season.
Should also have added: both Lady Kate and Nameless NIS have sails cut
by the same sailmaker, one Ken O'Brien, who never gets the credit he
deserves for first wresting the America's Cup from the grip of the NYYC
(forget the winged keel bit - that was psychological warfare--it was all
in the sails). So, it's not a case of =our= sailmaker being better than
=their= sailmaker.
On Peter's comment re beautifully-shaped foils on NIS's. These =weren't=
part of the original design. Rather, they were developments by Michael
Storer when part of Duck Flat-Wooden Boats to improve what was then
rather sluggish upwind capabilities, abd now incorporated in the design.
Our AS29 also has a NACA foil rudder and modified NACA bilgeboards,
which gives pause for thought. (Light schooner doesn't, yet, but =will=
sprout them if the handicap goes up any further...we think of NACA foils
as our legitimate dirty-tricks reserve).
Tim & Lady Kate
If you kick 'em while they're down, they're that much less likely to get
up and thump you...
BO>Here's a question that perhaps Tim with his AS 29 and flying tadpole can
BO>answer - I seem to remember once that you were comparing the performance of
BO>the AS 29 and the NIS 29 - but I think it was just a passing comment. Have
BO>you ever seen the two sail together? Are you able to make any comparision?
BO>How about the NIS 23 and the Martha Jane? Steve Anderson ( Landroval)
AS29 Lady Kate has had one boat-for-boat, from memory a broad reach
both with one reef in the main, over about 5 n miles, with her
arch-rival the NIS 29 from the same marina jetty (not on speaking
terms). NIS29 had about half a knot on AS29, but AS29 was trailing a
small but dense beard from not having a bottom clean for 12 months, and
also was crewed by incompetents (my son and me, learning) but then, so
was the NIS29. So very similar performance off the wind in smooth
water. On the wind, can't say. On the wallet, the AS29 is much lighter.
On the berth, well,er....let's just say AS29 wins again
Martha Jane and NIS23 have formally raced, & we'll see what happens in
the big passage race this weekend with Graham Cheers' "Shirley
Valentine". Past efforts have been good from the point of view of MJ
alone, bad from a racing viewpoint when compared with NIS23. Two years
ago, when I was Graham's tactician (!), MJ was some 25 minutes behind
NIS23 at the end of a 5hr passage race over a 20+n mile course, with 11
miles hard to windward. NIS23 sailed on her ear, resembling from a
distance an almost horizontal scythe. MJ moved gently heeling, with her
geriatric crew enjoying the comfort. Better sail trim would have sped MJ
up a bit, but I doubt that the gain would have been more than several
minutes.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
Ahab leads his crew out in search of the remaining great white whales on
Saturday.
BO>answer - I seem to remember once that you were comparing the performance of
BO>the AS 29 and the NIS 29 - but I think it was just a passing comment. Have
BO>you ever seen the two sail together? Are you able to make any comparision?
BO>How about the NIS 23 and the Martha Jane? Steve Anderson ( Landroval)
AS29 Lady Kate has had one boat-for-boat, from memory a broad reach
both with one reef in the main, over about 5 n miles, with her
arch-rival the NIS 29 from the same marina jetty (not on speaking
terms). NIS29 had about half a knot on AS29, but AS29 was trailing a
small but dense beard from not having a bottom clean for 12 months, and
also was crewed by incompetents (my son and me, learning) but then, so
was the NIS29. So very similar performance off the wind in smooth
water. On the wind, can't say. On the wallet, the AS29 is much lighter.
On the berth, well,er....let's just say AS29 wins again
Martha Jane and NIS23 have formally raced, & we'll see what happens in
the big passage race this weekend with Graham Cheers' "Shirley
Valentine". Past efforts have been good from the point of view of MJ
alone, bad from a racing viewpoint when compared with NIS23. Two years
ago, when I was Graham's tactician (!), MJ was some 25 minutes behind
NIS23 at the end of a 5hr passage race over a 20+n mile course, with 11
miles hard to windward. NIS23 sailed on her ear, resembling from a
distance an almost horizontal scythe. MJ moved gently heeling, with her
geriatric crew enjoying the comfort. Better sail trim would have sped MJ
up a bit, but I doubt that the gain would have been more than several
minutes.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
Ahab leads his crew out in search of the remaining great white whales on
Saturday.
> On Peter's comment re beautifully-shaped foils on NIS's. These=weren't=
> part of the original design. Rather, they were developments byMichael
> Storer when part of Duck Flat-Wooden Boats to improve what was thendesign.
> rather sluggish upwind capabilities, abd now incorporated in the
> Our AS29 also has a NACA foil rudder and modified NACA bilgeboards,=will=
> which gives pause for thought. (Light schooner doesn't, yet, but
> sprout them if the handicap goes up any further...we think of NACAfoils
> as our legitimate dirty-tricks reserve).I am very interested to hear this story about the foils. When I was
looking to have a NIS 23 built for me, I made a whole bunch of
suggestions about both minor changes and plans presentation. He took
offense, at least in a minor way, which contributed to my dropping the
project. (Cost considerations were the major factor.)
(I did this to Mr. Bolger too, when buying the plans for the Cynthia J.
His response boiled down to 'Go ahead, it will probably work. Not worth
my time to change anything'. An appropriate response. The CJ was built
to the plans.)
I should say that I have a racing man's bias and tend to think that
'performance' and 'windward performance' are the same thing. If someone
told me that the Bolger sharpies were faster off the wind, I wouldn't
doubt it for a moment. The pictures of AS-29's off the wind show more
twist in the main than I could tolerate though.
This might be a suitable place to share an insight about catboat
sailing: Running downwind, you can reduce the weather helm by trimming
in the mainsheet a little. The reason is that the force generated by
the sail has a larger side orce that tends to pull the bow to leeward.
Less helm is required to push the stern to windward. The fastest sail
trim for running in a cat is a balance between generating the maximum
forward force with the sail and having the least drag-inducing weather
helm. I'm sure this will work with all the cat yawls, as well as
straight cats.
It doesn't work in a sloop because the mast is too far back, and the
side force generated works through the middle of the boat and doesn't
generate much turning moment.
Peter
In a message dated 2/21/2000 8:11:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tjfatchen@...writes:
<< NIS23 at the end of a 5hr passage race over a 20+n mile course, with 11
miles hard to windward. NIS23 sailed on her ear, resembling from a
distance an almost horizontal scythe. MJ moved gently heeling, with her
geriatric crew enjoying the comfort. Better sail trim would have sped MJ
up a bit, but I doubt that the gain would have been more than several
minutes. >>
Hi Tim - some interesting comparisons - I wonder why the nis23 heeled so much
more with both boats being flat bottomed - But I've seen pictures of the NIS
26 sailing on her ear too - perhaps the lower sail plan of the mj just keeps
her more level? I would guess there is more rocker in the mj - I wonder if
that keeps her flatter in the water. Interesting - also sounds like most of
the course was upwind - a triangluar coarse would have made for an
interesting test on all points of sail. I would expect marconi sails - full
length battens to boot - to do better upwind. I've also found that not all
sailmakers know what to do with lug sails - even if the same sailmaker made
both sails - there is no guarantee that he cut the lug sail equally well. I'm
happy with the job gamble and hunter - camden maine - did with my sails. So
do I take it from your post that these two boats are matched up this weekend?
Steve Anderson ( Landroval)
tjfatchen@...writes:
<< NIS23 at the end of a 5hr passage race over a 20+n mile course, with 11
miles hard to windward. NIS23 sailed on her ear, resembling from a
distance an almost horizontal scythe. MJ moved gently heeling, with her
geriatric crew enjoying the comfort. Better sail trim would have sped MJ
up a bit, but I doubt that the gain would have been more than several
minutes. >>
Hi Tim - some interesting comparisons - I wonder why the nis23 heeled so much
more with both boats being flat bottomed - But I've seen pictures of the NIS
26 sailing on her ear too - perhaps the lower sail plan of the mj just keeps
her more level? I would guess there is more rocker in the mj - I wonder if
that keeps her flatter in the water. Interesting - also sounds like most of
the course was upwind - a triangluar coarse would have made for an
interesting test on all points of sail. I would expect marconi sails - full
length battens to boot - to do better upwind. I've also found that not all
sailmakers know what to do with lug sails - even if the same sailmaker made
both sails - there is no guarantee that he cut the lug sail equally well. I'm
happy with the job gamble and hunter - camden maine - did with my sails. So
do I take it from your post that these two boats are matched up this weekend?
Steve Anderson ( Landroval)
>Here's a question that perhaps Tim with his AS 29 and flying tadpole canI would be surprised if any NIS was out-sailed by the equivalent size
>answer - I seem to remember once that you were comparing the performance of
>the AS 29 and the NIS 29 - but I think it was just a passing comment. Have
>you ever seen the two sail together? Are you able to make any comparision?
>How about the NIS 23 and the Martha Jane? Steve Anderson ( Landroval)
Bolger square boat. The former are designed by a first rate racing boat
designer, and the latter by a cruising boat/home builder designer. (Or
perhaps I should say by a designer in cruising boat/home builder mode.)
Quite aside from the macro considerations of hull shape, ballast, sail
area, etc, the Kirby boats are designed with beautifully shaped foils
(centerboard and rudder), a much more expensive store-bought rig with
fiberglass or aluminium spars and full battens, and careful consideration
of sail controls. These differences are worth quite a lot in speed.
On the other hand, when I perused the NIS 23 plans that I bought from
Kirby, I was struck by how much more complicated the boat is to build, with
many more pieces of wood to cut and fit.
Peter
Here's a question that perhaps Tim with his AS 29 and flying tadpole can
answer - I seem to remember once that you were comparing the performance of
the AS 29 and the NIS 29 - but I think it was just a passing comment. Have
you ever seen the two sail together? Are you able to make any comparision?
How about the NIS 23 and the Martha Jane? Steve Anderson ( Landroval)
answer - I seem to remember once that you were comparing the performance of
the AS 29 and the NIS 29 - but I think it was just a passing comment. Have
you ever seen the two sail together? Are you able to make any comparision?
How about the NIS 23 and the Martha Jane? Steve Anderson ( Landroval)